Thread: Fitna

I'm sorry, but providing us the "correct" way to "interpret" that damned book doesn't change the fact that it allows for a hell of a lot of BS in this world.

Originally Posted by Mes Tarrant

I'm sorry, but providing us the "correct" way to "interpret" that damned book doesn't change the fact that it allows for a hell of a lot of BS in this world.

I'm not implying that there is only one correct way in which to interpret something; but i am a firm beleiver that sound bytes or just verses by themselves are not sufficient to make an accurate assumption. You have to read the verse in context and take other things into mind aswell and only then can you make a truly "educated guess" as it were...If you just present verses by themselves as in the video Fitna then you are taking them completely out of context in the most literall way you can.

Here, I imagine you folks will be interested to read this, that what i have found on onother website.

Geert Wilders has raised many points in his movie Fitna. He has tried to give a face to Islam that he and people like him (eg Osama Bin Laden) like to project. Misquoting Quran, and picking verses of his choice from the holy book ignoring verses just next to them. Giving half information is same as creating misinformation. However, for people who are wise, the same fitna created by Geert Wilders will lead to understanding the truth and salvation, once they read Quran and understand the real context.
While this response does not intend to explain reactive behaviours of some muslims (including clerics), it will explain the misquoted text from the source - Quran.

Movie starts with following verse quoted from holy Quran:

First Quran verse presented in the movie:
Quran: 008.060
"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly. "

But Geert refuses to read and quote just the next verse without understanding context, showing his ill intentions. Courage is being brought into hearts of fearful muslims against whom war has been declared and peace has been taken away:

Quran: 008.061
But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).

Islam encourages peace, will somebody want a better proof than this. Even against those who started to go against peace, you also get ready to respond to maintain peace, fighting those who distroy peace, but if they go back to peace, then there is no reason for war.


A little earlier in the same chapter the context becomes even more clear:
Quran: 008.039
And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.

Permission is being given to fight those who cause tumult or oppression without letting justice and forcing people not to choose what religion is right for them.

Quran: 008.058
If thou fearest treachery from any group, throw back (their covenant) to them, (so as to be) on equal terms: for Allah loveth not the treacherous.

It is all about terms and conditions. "IF". Permission is being given to fight with given circumstances of treachery from hostile group.

Same chapter again, to make context even more clear:
Quran: 008.056
They are those with whom thou didst make a covenant, but they break their covenant every time, and they have not the fear (of Allah).

"Those" are the people who break agreements and treaties.



Doesn't make the same chapter clarify people like those who made "Fita" with all the wrong intentions misquoting Quran,
Quran: 008.049
"Lo! the hypocrites say, and those in whose hearts is a disease: "These people,- their religion has misled them." But if any trust in Allah, behold! Allah is Exalted in might, Wise."


--------------------------------------...
The second verse from Quran presented is:
Quran: 004.056
Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

These are the warnings for disbelievers. And there is sign of God in it for the wise. Can an illiterate man (Mohammad, p.b.u.h) who didn't know how to read and write say such a thing which only MD's of today's medical sciences are able to explain.
Today science has discovered that the only place where pain of fire is felt is not the meat, but it is skin. God is giving His sign for the wise people in it to know the Quran is from God only. Punishment through roasting the skin, again and again, only the skin. Still there are many like Geert who did not think about it. For sure there are many signs for believers in Quran.
--------------------------------------...
The third verse quoted is:
Quran: 047.004
Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.

Again same chapter explains the context:
Quran: 047.020
Those who believe say, "Why is not a sura sent down (for us)?" But when a sura of basic or categorical meaning is revealed, and fighting is mentioned therein, thou wilt see those in whose hearts is a disease looking at thee with a look of one in swoon at the approach of death. But more fitting for them-

Chapters 25-78 were revealed during the early stage of Madani life after migration, at the time when muslims were weak, and feared to participate in wars staged on them by disbelievers.

--------------------------------------...
Fourth time a verse is mentioned:
Quran: 004.089
They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

Geert again ignores the context from the same chapter, a few verses away:
Quran: 004.075
And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!"

Islam is all about self defence, getting people (men, women, children) their right away from oppression, ill treatment, who cry and ask God for help.

--------------------------------------...
And the final Verse quoted in the movie:
Quran: 008.039
And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.

Geert picks the right verse that explains the whole context, but verily,

Quran: 047.024
Do they not then earnestly seek to understand the Qur'an, or are their hearts locked up by them?

Quran: 2:171
The example of such disbelievers is that of parrots who repeat what they hear of sounds and calls, without understanding. deaf, dumb, and blind; they cannot understand.

Again it says that if they cease to fight, don't fight. And permission is given to fight until all oppression is nulified, and people have the freedom to choose the right religion and faith as they want.

--------------------------------------...
Islam strictly condemns religious extremism and the use of violence against innocent lives.

There is no justification in Islam for extremism or terrorism. Targeting civilians’ life and property through suicide bombings or any other method of attack is haram – or forbidden - and those who commit these barbaric acts are criminals, not “martyrs.”

The Qur’an, Islam’s revealed text, states: "Whoever kills a person [unjustly]…it is as though he has killed all mankind. And whoever saves a life, it is as though he had saved all mankind."

(Qur’an, 5:32)

Prophet Muhammad said there is no excuse for committing unjust acts: "Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong to them. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong (even) if they do evil." (Al-Tirmidhi)


The Holy Prophet Muhammad(s) puts it in these words: "All creatures are like a family of God: and he loves the most those who are the most beneficent to His family. (Narrated by Anas. Mishkat al-Masabih,3:1392.)

Even duty of prophet was to clearly defined as to convey the messege of God to human beings:
So if they dispute with you (Muhammad SAW) say: "I have submitted myself to Allah (in Islam), and (so have) those who follow me." And say to those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and to those who are illiterates (Arab pagans): "Do you (also) submit yourselves (to Allah in Islam)?" If they do, they are rightly guided; but if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the Message; and Allah is All-Seer of (His ) slaves.
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #20)

Then, if they turn away, your duty (O Muhammad SAW) is only to convey (the Message) in a clear way.
( سورة النحل , An-Nahl, Chapter #16, Verse #82)



Quran
2:256 There is no compulsion in religion.

Don't give bad rating to a Mercedes only because the driver didn’t know how to drive such a good car and had an accident. Don't judge islam by the actions of bad Muslims who take out their frustration with west with wrong interpretation of Islamic teaching. Know islam by yourself. Give yourself a chance to know truth with open mind


Qarizma71, we don't need to make a counter movie, read my answer, all you need is a bit of knowledge on this topic

I don't see why you muslim's care.

The Dutch don't want them in their country. Guess what? It's THEIR country! You crazy Middle-Easterners disallow the American and European customs to be practiced in your countries, so why can't we do the same?

That aside, it really DOES NOT MATTER WHAT THE QUARAN SAYS. It matters what those idiotic radicals (And yes there are a LOT more then you let on) do (i.e. Killing people) that upsets us and they believe in, guess what, THE KORAN.

Then they should stop allowing people of other cultures and races immigrating to their country. Do us crazy Middle-Easteners try to stop Americans and Europeans from practising their customs? No. If anything, we stop our own people from doing that. Why? Because it's better to be proud of what you are, then pretending to be something that you're not.

In this case it DOES MATTER WHAT THE QUR'AN SAYS. Why? Because the movie is blaming the Qur'an for verses taken out of context and telling Muslims to rip them out. Put them in context, and there is nothing wrong. The film is portraying it as if this is actually what Islam teaches.

And if it is a crime to write something that can be taken out of context, stop writing all together.

Islam does not teach anything. Islam is the group of people who belive the writings in the Koran.

Again-- It does not matter that it is meant to say one thing, it matters that it is justification for another thing. (Killing infadels)

Originally Posted by Kushna Mufeed

And if it is a crime to write something that can be taken out of context, stop writing all together.

That is so true. That amounts to slander does it not? That video, Fitna amounts to hate speech. Im not sure if you watched it but at one point it even draws hate towards Dutch Muslims and makes it seem as if they are a plague of sorts. That video is hate speech and just reflects the mans own hate and prejudice. This video absoloutely should not be distrubuted. it is reminscent of Nazi hate mongering towards jews and it is reminscent to the Anti semitic production called the "The protocols of Zion".

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

I don't see why you muslim's care.

The Dutch don't want them in their country. Guess what? It's THEIR country! You crazy Middle-Easterners disallow the American and European customs to be practiced in your countries, so why can't we do the same?

That aside, it really DOES NOT MATTER WHAT THE QUARAN SAYS. It matters what those idiotic radicals (And yes there are a LOT more then you let on) do (i.e. Killing people) that upsets us and they believe in, guess what, THE KORAN.

The Dutch brought them in as Immigrants, if they get a green card and later Dutch citizenship then they have every right to live in the Netherlands no matter what their relegion. After World Ware II France brought in loads of Immigrants from it's former North African Colonies/protectorates to help rebuild France after the chaous of WWII, the North African immigrants were infact abused by the french and discriminated against. If i were i would watch what you say and stop playing the victime and making out people of Middle Eastern descent to be the bad guys. I find it intriguing you accuse me of being a Muslim because I speak out against hate speech.

You're writings reflect a great deal of ingorance on your part my friend.

Oh yes of course. It's all the Dutch's infinite wells of HATRED. DAMN THEM!

DAMN THEM ALL!

I mean, Al Qaeda only threanted to blow up their coutry and roast them all, but that doesn't mean anything-- They misinterpreted my religion! Those dogs!

Originally Posted by Kushna Mufeed

Do us crazy Middle-Easteners try to stop Americans and Europeans from practising their customs? .

Yes. Scarily so.

Sharia law anyone?


Hey, im late in on this thread. heh.

I just watched this with my partner on youtube. It renews my fear of Islam from when I was 14 and watched the planes crash into the twin towers.

My initial reaction was to wish that Obama would just send all of our nukes over to the Islamic countries and wipe them off the face of the earth. This reaction was purely emotional and vengeful.

This kind of adhesion to religion reminds me of Christianity before they became civilized, after the crusades and such. It seems that Islam, at least in other countries, has not evolved to the point that Christianity has. (the point where they realize subconsciously that it's all bullshit and they pick and choose what they want to believe in)

The stain of religion is destroying so many lives that I can't even comprehend. My partner just finished the book Infidel, which pretty much chronicles the life of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who went through female genital mutilation at the age of five. (without anesthetics BTW)

Islam is a poison among any modern society at this point. Just like Christianity was back in the dark ages.

Secularism is not perfect. But I would say that we are doing a HELL of a lot better then any of these fundie savages that are murdering and torturing and enslaving people.

I have read Kushna's replies from this thread. They are weak. You cannot get around the fact that Allah is a petty, jealous, and vengeful douche. Just like the god of the old testament.

Religion has been separating men and making us harm each other for long enough. It's time to shed off these ridiculous children's stories, and realize that the only way to succeed is to come together without superstition.