Thread: ABC's John Miller Interviews Osama Bin Laden (1998)

Personally, I want no rule, only order. But we know that's not likely to happen soon.

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

Ya they did fall out of spot with Washington.

They turned on us and showed our enemy status with them in many ways. Think about that while thinking about everything else I have said about them. What that all adds up to is a picture of a government that needed to be overthrown.

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

I suppose that would be shooting to high but you guys could have still played some part in helping the situation.

We overthrew the Hussein regime, and the Kurds love us for it.

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

Your ceasefire? The Ceasefire was brokered cheafly by US officials but if im not mistaken it was a NATO ceasefire, the US officials who brokered it were on behalf of the wider NATO organazation because the whole thing was a NATO operation. Is that right?

It was a U.N. ceasefire with 12 resolutions. However, the U.N. refused to enforce our ceasefire, and the refusal was wrong and corrupt, so we did it instead.

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

Attacked but not by Iraq.....Are you telling me Saddam was plotting to attack America? You say the enemy (Hussein) was trying to target your civilans. So you are saying effectively he was plotting to attack american soil? Hussein and Al Qaeda are not ones to ally with Islamists. The Hussein Dictatorship was Secular and at the time Al Qaeda was mostly wa'habi fundamntalists.

I did not say we knew they were plotting. I am saying they had a high enough likelihood based on their history and positions. They were a major threat.

The Hussein regime may have had a secular domestic government operation, but their international actions were not secular. They funded Palestinian suicide bombings in Israel and supported Hamas and Hezbollah, as in gave them money specifically for their terrorism. Hussein called the U.S. "infidels" and "Satan". They were a suicide bomb terrorist government. If they had offered WMD's to Al Qaeda, Hamas, or Hezbollah or whomever else, how sure are you that they would have turned the offer down? They had a common enemy.

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

That is no excuse to destabilize a country. He had soviet ties thats not a big deal either, they shared a border and an a extensive coastline. Thats like asking canada not to have relations with the USA.

Not merely Soviet ties or relations. We had Soviet relations. That is not what I am talking about. He was deemed to be an aider in the Soviet expansion aspirations. Winning the Cold War was more serious than any other thing the world has ever faced, other than the fight against the Nazis. It was the second biggest deal ever. We won it. If you don't like how we did it, that is unfortunate. Hindsight is 20/20, and we did what we thought we had to do. It worked. In the big picture, we were fighting for the ultimate preservation of democracy and the liberation of the Soviet states and of Eastern Europe.

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

The british motivation for the Coup was the the Nationalization of the Gas and OIl fields. That was their reason. They enlisted the Americans siting alleged Soviet Ties. But if it was to protect democracy then surely you would have bolstered their democracy in any number of ways like you did with Israel. If any country should have been "sacrificed" then it should have been israel, by allowing its destruction you could have goten unfathonable support from the Arab and Muslim world, incuding Iran givign you guys even more influence to help their countries become democracies.

Like I have said, I am not sure in looking back that the coup was totally necessary. We won the Cold War.

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

What i see with the Iran issue is just imperialism, It was a modern day act of Imperialism and your countries are suprised why Iran is so destrustful of the west.

How much longer do you want to talk about this side issue? If the British intelligence was wrong, that sucks, but we did have a Cold War to win, and we did respond to intelligence that a powerful communist expansion leader was running Iran. I don't want to split any more hairs over whether that one move in the second biggest nightmare the world has ever faced was necessary. We won the Cold War. That's all I have to say about that. If you want to start a thread where you bitch about what the U.S. did in Iran decades ago, then do it, but I am tired of addressing this side issue.

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

There were plenty of options on the table other then overthrow the guy. It was primarily about the nationalization of the Oil fields and Gas and the alleged soviet ties was just icing on the cake. UM im not sure you realise what Britain was up to at the time. Onother Imperialist action on behalf of Britain was the invasion of Egypt during the Suez crisis. The Egytpains nationalized the Suez Canal and Britian,France and Israel invaded Egypt because they nationalized it. Again onother imperial action, the right of the people of the country and self determination was pushed aside in favour of Business interests. the western reaction of the Suez Crisis was imperialism and the overthrow of Mosadeq in favour of a Dictator Tyrant was imperialism.

It came up during our discussion i guess. The Cold War was not about preserving democracy but was about countering Soviet Influence and Vice Versa it was just a competition for who would be the top dog not about Democracy. During the Cold War the West did very little to protect Democracy especially in the Muslim world. The French handling of Algeria for example, The Suez Crisis, The immigrant jews were given palestine instead of the long estabilished arab majority, The installation of a brutal dictator in Iran by the west, French Colonialism in IndoChina.

If it were not for what the United States did during the Cold War, democracy would not exist on this planet right now. Do you see what I am saying?

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

There would be Whistel blowers, Not possibly everyone could have died or refuse to talk,
At any rate there would have been documents, truck drivers who drove the materials, government workers who had knowledge of it. Remember alot of these people who would have allegedly have knolwedge of WMD's would go to the USA or the UK authorities and give what they know for a Bribe or atleast a Visa to a Western Country. Look read this: http://www.slate.com/id/2083760/ this puts it in better perspective then i possibly can.

The whistles were blown about the existence of the WMD's. The very few who hid the weapons have not blown whistles concerning their locations.

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

Every now and then bush gives a speech where he says Saddam had to be stopped and the tryant overthrown to free the iraqi people but if there was ample evidence at all now of WMD's then he would say something about them and how he dis armed him from the WMD's. He is a politican if there was ample evidence of the WMD's or heaven forbid actual WMD's then he would have included in his speeches on why the iraq war was neccesary.

Most people do not understand the WMD issue. They jump to this insane conclusion that because the weapons have not been found, they therefore never existed. Not finding them has made Bush look terrible on the world stage, which was Hussein's goal, so Bush knows that it would be bad politics to even bring up the subject now.

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

Its not about a muslim take over of palestine its about a palestinian take over of Palestine. I don't care what the Palestinians do to fight the usurpers, as long as they are fighting them thats A-OK with me. The usurpers brought it upon themselves and it was well known giving Palestine over to the immigrant jews could only be done by force. The American report in my other thread showed the Americans concluded it and i assume the british would have done research too. It was well known that disenfranchizing the Palestinian Muslims and Christians could only be done by force and today the struggle continues because of Western indifference towards arabs.

The struggle continues because of the mentality that what one Israeli Jew does, no matter when it happened, is the responsibility of all Israeli Jews. Your indifference to the deliberate murders of Israeli children who were born in Israel, whose parents were born in Israel, whose grandparents were born in Israel, and who are too young to even know that there is a conflict is the type of mentality I am talking about. That kind of thinking is the problem.

Based on what you are saying, you don't care if a two year old Israeli like I just described is killed and nothing good comes from it. I will never be able to relate to that. I don't understand being that cold toward people because of what their ancestors did, and I will never be able to relate to treating an ethnic group as though it has only one mind. I don't get it at all. I have asked you to explain it to me many times, and at this point I am not even sure you understand what I am saying. Nothing you say ever acknowledges that you even understand my point. I am going to try one more time to illustrate it to you.

When I was in the fourth grade, my teacher would punish the entire class if a few students were too loud during lunch. She knew damn well that I was not one of the ones being too loud, but she would punish me and other innocent students for what some other students did. I would ask her why I had to write lines, and her response would be, "Because the class was too loud." Her reasoning was that I was in the class, and the class was too loud, therefore I was too loud. That is NOT logical reasoning. I will give you another illustration. In the 1960's, John Lennon said that The Beatles were more popular than Jesus Christ. A bunch of fanatical Christians responded to that by burning Beatles records and getting on the radio and telling people to shun The Beatles for what "they" said. The Beatles did not say it. John Lennon said it! It is that type of prejudiced thinking that is the biggest problem in the world. It is not logical, and it is very destructive and terrible.

Do you understand my point at all? You hate what the 1948 Israeli settlers did, and you blame every Jew who is in Israel 60 years later. I am not even close to getting that.

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

The israelies are made up of immigrants or the children of immigrants like i have said many many tiems. Atleast 50% of the country only has a family history of 60 or so years in the region. They did not respect the Palestinians and they usurped their land, now is the time for revenge.

People should be held responsible for what their family members of 60 years ago did? Please explain that to me. How is killing people in Israeli Jew group B revenge against people in Israeli Jew group A? Can you answer that? The only thing I can guess is that you are so prejudiced and blinded by your own hatred that they are all the same to you. They are not all the same to reality!

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

The immigrants usupred the land from the Palestinians and now they will pay for it. An immigrant european in 1948 according to you has just as much right to Palestine as does a Palestine with a centuries old family history in the region?

Tonight when you are in bed and about to go to sleep, ponder deeply on the word "they". Do everything within your intellectual abilities to get to the bottom of what that word means... and what it does NOT mean.

If red headed individuals shoot my dog, have I gotten revenge if I shoot red headed individuals other than the ones who shot my dog? "Oh, but 'they' shot my dog." Think really hard about how that concept falls very short of being anything logical. If you can figure it out, please help me spread the word.

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

The immigrants usupred the land from the Palestinians and now they will pay for it. An immigrant european in 1948 according to you has just as much right to Palestine as does a Palestine with a centuries old family history in the region?

If you and your parents were born on some land, you are not wrong for being there. Your well established and cultured existence there is understandable. Holding people's ancestry against them is far from understandable. The 1948 take over of land was unjust, just as the same thing now with Palestinian settlers would be unjust. Both are unjust concepts, and the 1948 Jews had the same excuse you are using for exactly the same thing with Palestinians. Same thing in both cases. Both are wrong. However, I blame the U.N. for the 1948 misdeed more than the settlers who accepted what the U.N. gave them. I sure as Hell do not blame Israeli children of 2008 for it. Why do you?

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

I calculated the number for you to put in perspective for you the very little history these people have in the region and how they stole Palestine first by Force with Western made weapons and then by flooding the region with immigrants.

I just boldfaced the word "they". I challenge you to tell me what is illogical about your use of it in that context. Can you tell me?

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

It's not about Muslim rule, i dont like the idea of a theocracy anymore then you do. I want PALESTINIAN rule, and secular rule. The Palestinians shouldn't be able to rule their own land because they are Muslims?

Rule cannot be both Palestianian Muslim and secular. The concept of a Palestinian state is universes away from secular. A secular government would not discriminate based on religion.

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

I have no problems with jews being in Palestine but when they forcibly take the land away frm the Majority by means of Arms and then flood the area with immigrants that indeed becomes a problem.

Then be pissed at the individuals who did that, not at their descendants who did absolutely nothing except be raised and continue to live where they were born. Imagine being born and raised in Canada and later in life being told you have to move away because you are the wrong religion or because you have the wrong ancestors. Think really hard about that. Now imagine losing your life over it. Imagine your three small children being blown up at a birthday party over it, and then imagine somebody calling it "revenge" and referring to your children as some group of "they" to which they actually do not belong.

I realise my statements about deportion and other stuff about the israelies are irrational but the things they've done to the Palestinians. Fuck they invade and swarm palestinian land and say there are no such things as Palestinians they say they are egyptians and jordanians. I dont care though they hate, they get hate in return., they are a stain on the middle east and must be "cleansed" as you would a stain there is no making peace with these animals. The israelies call palestinians dirty animals and in turn i do the same to them so dont jump on that statement.

The rascist european immigrants thought the palestinians were just like native americans that they are just peasant nomads who will take it up the ass like the native americans. They are no better then south african whites.

Never forgive, Never forget.

I will respond to the rest at a later time.

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

I realise my statements about deportion and other stuff about the israelies are irrational but the things they've done to the Palestinians. Fuck they invade and swarm palestinian land and say there are no such things as Palestinians they say they are egyptians and jordanians. I dont care though they hate, they get hate in return., they are a stain on the middle east and must be "cleansed" as you would a stain there is no making peace with these animals. The israelies call palestinians dirty animals and in turn i do the same to them so dont jump on that statement.

The rascist european immigrants thought the palestinians were just like native americans that they are just peasant nomads who will take it up the ass like the native americans. They are no better then south african whites.

Never forgive, Never forget.

I will respond to the rest at a later time.

You realize your statements are irrational? Then why do you say them?

Look at the words I boldfaced, and then think back on my main message from my last post. Are you starting to see my point? I think you should meditate deeply on the concept of individuality.

I dont give a fuck about them as individuals.

the very existence of these people on Palestinians land is what keeps palestinians from being free in their own lands. Individual or not they can all go to hell. I realise each person is an individual and i understand your arguments but i dont care.

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

I dont give a fuck about them as individuals.

the very existence of these people on Palestinians land is what keeps palestinians from being free in their own lands. Individual or not they can all go to hell. I realise each person is an individual and i understand your arguments but i dont care.

That mentality is what will keep the Palestinian-Israeli conflict going for no telling how many more thousands of years. If you ever get away from that thinking, please teach the world how you did it. If there is a way to get enough people in the Middle East to value individuality, it will save the world.

That may be so but in this case it is European colonialist indifference (Christian and Jewish) to the (for the lack of a better word) indigenous population that cause such conflicts in the first place. What did you people expect? Them to just take that shit from the European immigrants? .....

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

you people

That is exactly what I am talking about. Perfect illustration. Do you really think I am a European colonialist? Seriously, do you? Do you think I had the slightest bit to do with the settlement of Israel by European Jews? I am not a Christian, a Jew, a European, or a colonialist, yet you just labelled me three of those things and then leaped from there to the conclusion that I am responsible for some shit that happened decades before I was even born. That is the sort of illogical generalizing I am talking about, and you can't even group me into any of those categories. I'm telling you... Your prejudice is blinding you from the reality of individuality. That is the biggest problem the world has. Prejudice is profoundly illogical, and it is profoundly poisonous to the well being of the world. Do you at all see what I am saying?

Also, a person who engages in terrorism makes his own decisions and is responsible for his own actions. You cannot justify an irrational act of tragedy inducement by the explanation for the anger. If I get pissed off because some Saudi Arabian individuals did the 9/11 attacks, it does not justify my going to Saudi Arabia and killing random Saudi Arabian two year olds and their mothers and yelling, "You people!" It would make no sense. Do you think it would make sense?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

That is exactly what I am talking about. Perfect illustration. Do you really think I am a European colonialist? Seriously, do you? Do you think I had the slightest bit to do with the settlement of Israel by European Jews? I am not a Christian, a Jew, a European, or a colonialist, yet you just labelled me three of those things and then leaped from there to the conclusion that I am responsible for some shit that happened decades before I was even born. That is the sort of illogical generalizing I am talking about, and you can't even group me into any of those categories. I'm telling you... Your prejudice is blinding you from the reality of individuality. That is the biggest problem the world has. Prejudice is profoundly illogical, and it is profoundly poisonous to the well being of the world. Do you at all see what I am saying?

Also, a person who engages in terrorism makes his own decisions and is responsible for his own actions. You cannot justify an irrational act of tragedy inducement by the explanation for the anger. If I get pissed off because some Saudi Arabian individuals did the 9/11 attacks, it does not justify my going to Saudi Arabia and killing random Saudi Arabian two year olds and their mothers and yelling, "You people!" It would make no sense. Do you think it would make sense?

I said "what do you people expect" as in what do you people(who criticize the Palestinians for fighting to reclaim their homeland) expect the Palestinians to do? I was not extending any sort of responsibilty for Al Nakba unto you at all.

I beleive the Palestinians should be able to retake what is theirs. Atleast they should be able to take the land given to them by the UN in 1948 if not the whole of palestine back!

Anyway i dont beleive all jews should be gone after by Palestinians. Only those who are squatting on the Palestinians birth right.

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

I said "what do you people expect" as in what do you people(who criticize the Palestinians for fighting to reclaim their homeland) expect the Palestinians to do? I was not extending any sort of responsibilty for Al Nakba unto you at all.

Oh. You didn't specify that. To answer your question, I expect them to not kill people who did not do what they (the terrorists) are pissed off about. A race did not steal land. A religion did not steal land. The United Nations stole land and gave it to individuals. Those individuals are assholes, but the rest of their religion and race in the region are not responsible.

Did you see what I said about my going to Saudi Arabia? What is you answer to the question I asked?

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

I beleive the Palestinians should be able to retake what is theirs. Atleast they should be able to take the land given to them by the UN in 1948 if not the whole of palestine back!

There you go again. You are treating an entire culture as if it is one person. If a man lost his land unjustly, he has an arument. However, his cultural status alone should not entitle him to shit.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Oh. You didn't specify that. To answer your question, I expect them to not kill people who did not do what they (the terrorists) are pissed off about. A race did not steal land. A religion did not steal land. The United Nations stole land and gave it to individuals. Those individuals are assholes, but the rest of their religion and race in the region are not responsible.

How will the Palestinians get back their country? They have no voice practically. Myself, im in favour of the Palestinians protesting Ghandhi/MLK style but i wont disagree with whatever way they choose to resist although i concede Protesting and Civil Disobedeince would go along way altleast it would do better then "terrorism". but to me if the Palestinians choose that then i support them in whatever they do.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Did you see what I said about my going to Saudi Arabia? What is you answer to the question I asked?

Ya i guess your right about the Saudi Anology. but i support the Palestinians unconditionally and if they choose armed resistance then i support them and respect that, i admit there are better ways to resist like Ghandhi/MLK they just need a leader to steer them towards Ghandhi style "resitance"

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

There you go again. You are treating an entire culture as if it is one person. If a man lost his land unjustly, he has an arument. However, his cultural status alone should not entitle him to shit.

Well then you will have to tell that to the jews (not all of them ofcourse)who say "god gave them the land" "their ancestors a few thousand years ago lived there so its their iternal homeland" and stuff like that. thats their whole claim on the land. They say they are descendants of the true natives of the land and shit like that and that the Palesitnans are just Jordanians and Egyptiants.

Now over 800,000 Palstinians lost their homes and property in 1948 and the vast majority of them are stateless and have no country and have no rights. Even the arab countries just pile them into refugee camps and abuse them. For instance in th UAE a Palestinians male is deported from the country when he is 18 or something like that. They need to get their property back that was seized and they need to to have their own country because no country not even israel which gives a few of them citizenship can treat them as equals.

Not just that but the UN promised them a country too.

Any individual who got screwed out of his land should be given just compensation. I totally agree with you on that. Most of them are dead now, but the ones who are alive deserve compensation, as would any Jew who would get screwed out of his land now. I also agree with you that a Jew who spouts off the, "God gave us this land," junk is screwed up. I think any Jew who says it is just as screwed up as any Muslim who says it. What I don't agree with you on is the way you lump all Palestinians in with the individuals who lost their land and the way you lump in all Israeli Jews with the people who unjustifiably moved into stolen land sixty years ago.

I have made my point about individuality a lot in this thread and other ones. I am not sure you are really getting what I am saying. So that I might not say it a bunch more times, could you please tell me what it is you think I am saying? I want to know how well you understand my point because you keep going back to terms like "they" and "the" as if a culture is one collective person. What is it that you think I am saying?

I realise what you're sayin

g. If i support Palestinians bus bombing a bus in revenge for their land being stolen then that does not do much good at all because those people in the bus aren't the folks who stole the land they just happend to be born in "The worng country at the wrong time".

Anyway...I beleive in the "You put one of mine in the hospital i put one of yours in the morgue" philospohy to some degree just cause im extremely biased as you say.

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

I realise what you're sayin

g. If i support Palestinians bus bombing a bus in revenge for their land being stolen then that does not do much good at all because those people in the bus aren't the folks who stole the land they just happend to be born in "The worng country at the wrong time".

Yeah, that is what I am saying.

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

Anyway...I beleive in the "You put one of mine in the hospital i put one of yours in the morgue" philospohy to some degree just cause im extremely biased as you say.

Why is the tragedy innocents go through not enough to make you be against such horror? Don't you value human life and human emotion? I know war is necessary in some cases, but I don't at all think the "one of yours for one of mine" philosophy is ever justification for it. It makes about as much sense as Palestinians who lost land killing other Palestinians to get back at humans for stealing their land or a tall person blowing up a bus full of random short people because his house was robbed by short people. I don't get it.

I dont know man. You gave me lots of food for thought on this. I still support the Palestinians unconditionally in whatever they do though.

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

You gave me lots of food for thought on this.

I'm glad to know that. It's really all I can do. I guess I have said about all I have to say about this. I very much hope you eventually change your mind, but all I can do is explain my view and leave it up to you to think about it. Just keep in mind how terrible it is when innocent people die and the people who love them go through unspeakable pain. That should only happen when it prevents far greater tragedy.