The more I learn and the more I think about the existance of aliens

[Zotoaster]

Hey DV, I never took biology, which is a shame because I just started getting interested. Anyway, for the past few months I've been doing my own research on evolution, and more recently on abiogenesis. There are two things I like about abiogenesis: 1) It doesn't seem as if it would be that unlikely to happen, and 2) Once it happens, evolution naturally begins to happen. So recently someone was talking to me about SETI, and it got me thinking about aliens, but with my new knowledge. And I have to say, it kind of worries me really. My argument always used to be, "Well the universe is so vast. If intelligent life could happen here surely it could happen elsewhere", but the more I think about it, the more I doubt it. Here's a very brief story of evolution for us: Once we had very basic simple cells through abiogenesis, eukaryotic cells arose. These made the first multicellular organisms. These at first were simiar to sea-sponges, and the very first to have any specific shape looked something like jellyfish. From a gene-centered point of view, these are just fine, because they, obviously, survive and get to pass down their genes. One day a genetic mutation came along (cut a long story short), and the neuron was invented. Please note that mutations in the genes are RANDOM. The very first animals to use these efficiently were things that were something like flatworms. The planaria for instance has a very basic body, two basic eyes, and a very basic brain. That's it. No organs or anything. From there it was pretty straight forward. As the evolutionary tree split into many branches, intelligence became a fitness factor, so all the animals had to become more intelligent to survive. Out of all the millions of species that have existed with a brain, humans are the only ones that have ever been able to use this intelligence to look outwards into space for other beings. Now, look back a bit, and take note that none of this would have happened if you didn't get this genetic mutation that made a nerve cell able to transmit electricity. So, assuming abiogenesis has happened elsewhere in the universe (which I seriously assume it must have), and evolution taken over (even if it doesn't use DNA like ours), then we have to conclude that any animals (if they ever even left the ground!) that got intelligent enough to have brains must have evolved something that can act as a brain - something that can take in information and reformat it, process it, and do something with it. Once this happens, we have to assume that the environment grew complex enough for the brain to grow complex enough. Once that happened, we have to assume the brain is able to break free of only concentrating on survival (like we have - the only species on Earth to have done it so far), and then, become intelligent enough to be able to look for aliens. Does this not trouble anyone else? I've always had this feeling that there must be intelligent life out there, but now the probability of this happening seems to have dropped in my head, and if it has happened, I don't think it would have happened very often. Your thoughts?

[Pyrofan1]

Do you know about the Fermi paradox? If not, it basically says if intelligent extraterrestrial life is common, why don't we notice it. Which leads us back to what you're taking about, intelligent ET life is most likely uncommon.

[Zotoaster]

Do you know about the Fermi paradox? If not, it basically says if intelligent extraterrestrial life is common, why don't we notice it. Which leads us back to what you're taking about, intelligent ET life is most likely uncommon. Yeah, I've heard the whole "Where are they?" thing, but it never really bothered me, because I always retorted, "Where are we?".

[tkdyo]

actually, this doesnt bother me in the least. To me it seems like a very natural process to happen once single celled organisms are formed. It might take longer on another planet, but eventually mutations would occur to allow such an evolutionary path, imho.

[ClouD]

The more I unlearn, the more I am the existence of myself.

[Pyrofan1]

because I always retorted, "Where are we?" The orion arm in the milky way galaxy?

[bluefinger]

The problem of Intelligent Life arising, is the fact it took so long to do so in the history of this planet. Only for a 100 or so years have we been broadcasting signals, so only stars within 100 lightyears or so would be able to detect our presence. Even then, Intelligent Life on other planets outside of our solar system could have existed, but may have died out before we came into the picture. There are a lot of variables to consider which such propositions, but I do not think it is a big problem. Perhaps we simply have to look further or find more ingenious ways of detecting life from great distances.

[Minervas Phoenix]

bluefinger is right that we need to find more intelligent ways of contacting them if we want to be free. The thing with outer space life is that they are mature species. Our species is sort of hitting puberty for lack of a better analogy. We are different in the way that we were created originally as slaves from another species and we have being abused since then. Before we can be independent and live in space in the real world with the rest of them we must manage to break out of slavery delusional life on earth. It's like an abusive relationship with a parent that lies and controls the child. This also involves genetic manipulation. The result is the matrix of delusion they have created for our slavery on earth. It's an act of war from an experienced species but not an invincible system as it is regularly infiltrated by those wishing to free us and give us messages of hope. Others want to help us but until we actually decide something other than a willing slave there is nothing they can do but encourage us to be free and stop being manipulated. As the species spiritually begins to mature it will go in one direction or the other and make a definite decision. The matrix of control on earth is only functional for when a species is not intelligent or mature enough. Soon as the species begins to become more intelligent that system or paradign of reality will change entirely an a clear view of the manipulation will surface. Before this happens the Nazi like species want to convert us. Which is already known as the Illuminati agenda or whatever you wish to call it for new world order. The other ongoing agenda is the agenda by the other good side trying to free us. We know that plan from the story of Jesus who had connections to the mature space species and the fulfillment of what they taught should come to pass. I know that many here are not ready to hear that but some are and these kind of posts are to those who are ready. This movie relates to an ongoing push to humanity for a decision. As in now is the time to decide you are growing up becoming independent. The good guys or the bad guys.

[bluefinger]

bluefinger is right that we need to find more intelligent ways of contacting them if we want to be free. The thing with outer space life is that they are mature species. Our species is sort of hitting puberty for lack of a better analogy. We are different in the way that we were created originally as slaves from another species and we have being abused since then. Before we can be independent and live in space in the real world with the rest of them we must manage to break out of of slavery life on earth. It's like an abusive relationship with a parent that lies and controls the child. Which is the of matrix of delusion they have created for our slavery on earth. Others want to help us but until we actually decide something other than a willing slave there is nothing they can do but encourage us to be free and stop being manipulated. As the species spiritually begins to mature it will go in one direction or the other and make a definite decision. The matrix of control on earth is only functional for when a species is not intelligent or mature enough. Soon as the species begins to become more intelligent that system or paradign of reality will change entirely an a clear view of the manipulation will surface. Before this happens the Nazi like species want to convert us. Which is already known as the Illuminati agenda or whatever you wish to call it for new world order. lol wut?

[skysaw]

Intelligent life is likely to happen all the time all over the universe. The problem is that the likelyhood of two species to both be in an advanced stage at the same time who happen to live close to each other is very small. Look at us... humans haven't been any farther than their own moon. Even unmanned missions have not ventured further then the edge of our own solar system while still returning data. Figuring out where to go is a problem as well. Only very recently have we had the ability to even detect a planet in other solar systems, and we can't get a whole lot of information about those planets so far. Lastly, if we ever manage to find such a planet and successfully exchange radio signals, by the time the exchange is made and we can plan and execute a trip there, and the time of the space travel is made, hundreds of years could pass.

[Zotoaster]

Intelligent life is likely to happen all the time all over the universe. The problem is that the likelyhood of two species to both be in an advanced stage at the same time who happen to live close to each other is very small. Look at us... humans haven't been any farther than their own moon. Even unmanned missions have not ventured further then the edge of our own solar system while still returning data. Figuring out where to go is a problem as well. Only very recently have we had the ability to even detect a planet in other solar systems, and we can't get a whole lot of information about those planets so far. Lastly, if we ever manage to find such a planet and successfully exchange radio signals, by the time the exchange is made and we can plan and execute a trip there, and the time of the space travel is made, hundreds of years could pass. This is what I used to think, but as my first post states, my whole view has been changed simply by further analysing the statement, "Intelligent life is likely to happen all the time all over the universe." If you read the rest of my passage (atleast the bit about evolution), then you will see why I doubt it. Even ignoring that, of all the millions (or possibly billions) of species that have ever existed on Earth, we are the only "intelligent" ones (intelligent defined as the type of species we are looking for). The only reason that even happened was because during the Cambrian there happened to be a genetic mutation, just by chance, that allowed a cell to transmit electricity, and only one of those used it to make a brain. We have all simply evolved from that animal. The chances of that happening seem pretty slim - if they weren't, I dare say we would have seen many other species evolve brains on their own (without inheriting them from this flatworm-like thing). The closest I can think of? A venus fly plant - atleast it has some sort of processing going on, but it's hardly intelligent.

[Sound]

Two words: Drakes Equation

[Xei]

The more I unlearn, the more I am the existence of myself. Are you ever going to contribute anything than egotistical gibberish? Anyway. The crux of this argument is really if neurons can arise and hence a CNS and intelligence, via evolution. I'll say briefly; you say that neurons conduct electricity. No, they don't. Signals along axons are actually more like waves. Ions flow through the membrane and then back, which triggers this further down the axon and so on. But about your point; actually it's a pretty good one which I hadn't considered before. Perhaps we're of a very small number of intelligent/conscious beings in the universe... I'd have to do some more reading on the origins of the nervous system. But really, the universe is hugely vast. 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 is a huge number of solar systems, so huge that pretty much anything could happen. A nervous system is such an incredibly useful adaptation that it's hard to believe that it's rare.

[Zotoaster]

Two words: Drakes Equation I am aware of the Drake Equation. The problem with it is that none of the variables are actually known. Even so, I think the probabilities are still pretty low. For instance, we know life has been on Earth for about 4 billion years. Only once has there been a brain evolved, and then intelligence arose from there. Even then, the intelligence that we are looking for has only come once.

[tkdyo]

what do you mean a brain has only evolved once? I dare say, it only needed to evolve once since the adaptation basically took over the world. It would only be considered to evolve again if it had once been erradicated, which never happened because it was so advantageous. I think the same would happen on another planet.

[Xei]

Hmm... there's only really ever been one situation in which a need for a neuron did arise though. And it did arise. Only animalia are complex enough to need nervous systems. Sponges evolved, and then came the neuron, and then came thousands times more animals. It seemed to happen pretty quick. But I'll admit it's a weird area and I don't know much about it. Info on the web was pretty sparse too, I don't think there's much known about the history of the neuron yet.

[Minervas Phoenix]

during the Cambrian there happened to be a genetic mutation, just by chance, that allowed a cell to transmit electricity, and only one of those used it to make a brain. We have all simply evolved from that animal. There is several and numerous discrepancies involved in the history of our species. Both in archeology and in the scientific community. I have never herd this excuse for human beings before and it tends to present more questions then answers. For example lots of living things have brains and different kinds of nervous systems not just human beings. You need to talk about the entire evolution of the brain, neuron etc, and all the other species before you can begin to suggest how cells mutated to accommodate the electricity and how it relates to the brain and the other things. Particularity when it comes to DNA complexities you are going to have problems explaining how this would actually occur. Now the education system is not perfect but I'm glad they are not teaching this in school and I don't know where you go this idea, that that's how we are human. At the least a little more thought would not go astray. Our DNA structure also indicates by it's differences we did not evolve from any animal the jump is simply impossible. That is not a debatable thing but something already known to those who have researched it.

[bluefinger]

There is several and numerous discrepancies involved in the history of our species. Both in archeology and in the scientific community. I have never herd this excuse for human beings before and it tends to present more questions then answers. For example lots of living things have brains and different kinds of nervous systems not just human beings. You need to talk about the entire evolution of the brain, neuron etc, and all the other species before you can begin to suggest how cells mutated to accommodate the electricity and how it relates to the brain and the other things. Particularity when it comes to DNA complexities you are going to have problems explaining how this would actually occur. Now the education system is not perfect but I'm glad they are not teaching this in school and I don't know where you go this idea, that that's how we are human. At the least a little more thought would not go astray. Our DNA structure also indicates by it's differences we did not evolve from any animal the jump is simply impossible. That is not a debatable thing but something already known to those who have researched it. Bullshit. There is plenty of evidence to suggest we evolved and shared common ancestors with many different primates, and the further you go along the history of the planet, the more you see how we diverged from other species. Also, by the definition of the categorisation animal, we are animals. Learn a biology textbook. NOW.

[skysaw]

Our DNA structure also indicates by it's differences we did not evolve from any animal the jump is simply impossible. That is not a debatable thing but something already known to those who have researched it. Bullometer++

[Zotoaster]

There is several and numerous discrepancies involved in the history of our species. Both in archeology and in the scientific community. I have never herd this excuse for human beings before and it tends to present more questions then answers. For example lots of living things have brains and different kinds of nervous systems not just human beings. You need to talk about the entire evolution of the brain, neuron etc, and all the other species before you can begin to suggest how cells mutated to accommodate the electricity and how it relates to the brain and the other things. Particularity when it comes to DNA complexities you are going to have problems explaining how this would actually occur. Now the education system is not perfect but I'm glad they are not teaching this in school and I don't know where you go this idea, that that's how we are human. At the least a little more thought would not go astray. Our DNA structure also indicates by it's differences we did not evolve from any animal the jump is simply impossible. That is not a debatable thing but something already known to those who have researched it. Wow. OK, I'll talk about each of your points bit by bit: example lots of living things have brains and different kinds of nervous systems not just human beings. Yes, we all share a common ancestor. Evolution doesn't work in a straight line, it branches. You need to talk about the entire evolution of the brain, neuron etc, and all the other species before you can begin to suggest how cells mutated to accommodate the electricity and how it relates to the brain and the other things. No I don't. We know that neurons are used in brains and nervous systems for all animals that have them, and we know that the first animals to have them also had neurons. To say that something weird happened in between is like saying that the moon doesn't exist when nothing is looking at it - it's not falsifiable. Particularity when it comes to DNA complexities you are going to have problems explaining how this would actually occur. Uhmm, does it not make sense that because of the DNA complexities this could occur? Add one extra base pair to a gene and all the codons have changed, created a completely different string of amino acids, so completely different proteins. The fact that mutations are rather common backs up the fact that this could happen.... and it did happen... obviously. You smell like a creationist and I don't know where you go this idea, that that's how we are human. If we didn't evolve to be human, how are we human? ... You don't have to answer that, because it is clear that your statement was a completely red-herring. I'm not talking about some sort of trancendent essence that makes us human. I'm talking about the evolution of intelligence. This one is my favourite: Our DNA structure also indicates by it's differences we did not evolve from any animal the jump is simply impossible. That's just hilarious. Do a google search for "chromosome 2", and witness our very obvious connection to the other 3 of the great apes. That is not a debatable thing but something already known to those who have researched it. Those that researched it? You mean evolutionary biologists, like Ken Miller, Richard Dawkins, etc? Well, if you did some research I think you'll find they all agree with what the evidence gives them, i.e. they would disagree with you outright. I don't know what your post was about. If you don't believe in evolution, go away. If you do, it's obvious that humans evolved intelligence. It's also obvious that so far we are the only ones on Earth to have done so. It is also obvious (I hope you are not a young-earther) that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old, and life about 3.7 billion years old. In 3.7 billion years, we are the only intelligent life? If we are to make any estimations of the probability of intelligent life in outer space (where frankly, we don't even know if life even exists there, though it probably does), then the least we could do is base these estimations on something - where we do know life exists - Earth. Currently, I repeat, currently, estimates for the amount of species that live on Earth right now goes anywhere from 3 million to 50 million. That's a big jump, but even if you take the lowest number, a 3 million to 1 chance of intelligent life is pretty slim.

[Xei]

Please, not another thread that turns into a rant with people in denial about evolution. Can't we just tell them to stay the hell out of evolution threads so that we can talk properly? The things they say never advance the conversation, they're always just the same moronic errors.

[Zotoaster]

Please, not another thread that turns into a rant with people in denial about evolution. Can't we just tell them to stay the hell out of evolution threads so that we can talk properly? The things they say never advance the conversation, they're always just the same moronic errors. Exactly. Besides, this isn't a thread about evolution. It is assuming evolution exists that we can try to make some predictions about given things. To say that any creationist can have any input is kinda paradoxical anyway, given "God works in mysterious ways... therefore we don't have to account for things such as why males have nipples or why pythons and whales have leg remnants". Sorry, but I don't think you are qualified to join in this discussion until you have some ability to make predictions, since, after all, when talking about ET, that's all we can do.

[Sandform]

Please, not another thread that turns into a rant with people in denial about evolution. Can't we just tell them to stay the hell out of evolution threads so that we can talk properly? The things they say never advance the conversation, they're always just the same moronic errors. We should all take a page from Dawkins book when he talks to Ben.

[Alric]

One thing you need to keep in mind, is how dangerous space can be as well. Its not enough to be as smart as human to survive. First you need to be able to colonize other plants before your home planet is destoryed. This isn't an easy task as there are a large number of things that can kill off a spieces. Such as a giant rock flying into the planet. Which is actually fairly common. Also things like huge volcanos can take you out. Or you can have a nuclear war like people worry about today. Or some plague that kills everyone. This is all stuff we havn't escaped ourself, and could very well wipe us out before we contact anyone. Next you need to escape your solar system before it gets destroyed. Countless things will take out a solar system. Any kind of problem with your sun is going to kill you. Even then you just keep moving up. A black hole any where near you, will wipe out huge areas of space. Some people believe there are black holes in the center of all the galaxies. Whats worse galaxies can even crash into each other! Even be able to space travel isn't going to save you when an entire galaxy is taken out. The universe is a deadly and unforgiving place. Even if there are aliens far smarter than us, doesn't mean they lived.

[Zotoaster]

One thing you need to keep in mind, is how dangerous space can be as well. Its not enough to be as smart as human to survive. First you need to be able to colonize other plants before your home planet is destoryed. This isn't an easy task as there are a large number of things that can kill off a spieces. Such as a giant rock flying into the planet. Which is actually fairly common. Also things like huge volcanos can take you out. Or you can have a nuclear war like people worry about today. Or some plague that kills everyone. This is all stuff we havn't escaped ourself, and could very well wipe us out before we contact anyone. Next you need to escape your solar system before it gets destroyed. Countless things will take out a solar system. Any kind of problem with your sun is going to kill you. Even then you just keep moving up. A black hole any where near you, will wipe out huge areas of space. Some people believe there are black holes in the center of all the galaxies. Whats worse galaxies can even crash into each other! Even be able to space travel isn't going to save you when an entire galaxy is taken out. The universe is a deadly and unforgiving place. Even if there are aliens far smarter than us, doesn't mean they lived. Well, literarly sending something (whether it's humans or robots) into space really is the only way of discovering non-intelligent life (after all, I'm not talking about colonisation here). If there is intelligent life, interstellar telephone messages really would be the way to go I assume, which is what SETI is all about.