What is a Terrorist?

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02-05-2009, 04:50 AM
Universal Mind

Quote:

Originally Posted by O'nus

You're asking my political opinion. I did not want to give it.

Then my point stands.

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Originally Posted by O'nus

I asked you to quote me someone against explicitly "freedom" and you referenced me Q2 - not the whole thing.

As I said, I don't know where one of the loons specifically used the word "freedom" and said something like, "I hate freedom." But I did show you where one of the top dogs in Al Qaeda said it about democracy, which is the only freedom oriented form of government. I also showed you where Bin Laden spoke out against freedom, though you pointed out that he said that it is not freedom. He is incorrect. He spoke out against freedom, just not the word.

If you could have spent one day living under the rule of the Taliban (Al Qaeda's wonderful bunch of harboring allies in Islamofascism), you would completely agree with me. Islamofascists despise freedom. I taught an Afghan refugee a few years ago. I wish she could be here to post in this thread. She would blow your mind with her opinion of what Islamofascists think of freedom. I am happy that she was able to go to school and show her face. I am happy that she was able to even go to school. The United States gave her those freedoms, among a very long list of others, which she did not have under the Islamofascist government of old Afghanistan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by O'nus

After this, it is now more abundantly clear that your own article can be used against your point. He is arguing the nature of freedom. This was my point. You have your own opinion on what political and governing party offers freedom, and so does he. You can argue about that, but the point is that he is for freedom and believes that democracy is against it.

Entirely semantic. All it shows is that Bin Laden and his loons are really screwed up on what freedom is. Hitler could have said to the concentration camp victims, "This is freedom." It doesn't mean it was. The Taliban might call elections "oppression" or say that they go against "freedom". It doesn't mean they would be right. Clearly they would not.

The "freedom fighters" are fighting against freedom no matter what words they use.
02-05-2009, 05:24 AM
O'nus

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Then my point stands.

You were trying to get me to debate over the stance of freedom in differing government systems. Don't be a dink.

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" But I did show you where one of the top dogs in Al Qaeda said it about democracy, which is the only freedom oriented form of government

That's your opinion and, as your quoted dialogue showed, it is the opinion of Al Qaeda that your opinion is wrong and theirs is right. You are being no different than them.

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If you could have spent one day living under the rule of the Taliban (Al Qaeda's wonderful bunch of harboring allies in Islamofascism), you would completely agree with me. Islamofascists despise freedom.

They say the same about America.

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Entirely semantic.

Your point is entirely semantic.

~
02-05-2009, 05:45 AM
Universal Mind

Quote:

Originally Posted by O'nus

You were trying to get me to debate over the stance of freedom in differing government systems. Don't be a dink.

Don't play dodgeball. Anti-democracy is anti-freedom. I still challenge you to explain otherwise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by O'nus

That's your opinion and, as your quoted dialogue showed, it is the opinion of Al Qaeda that your opinion is wrong and theirs is right. You are being no different than them.

So you don't think Al Qaeda is against freedom after everything you have now read? At what point do you stand against something if you are going to throw "opinion... no different" at that which is clearly severe oppression? Is it just my "opinion" that when the Taliban made the women of Afghanistan get under blankets to go in public and never get educactions the Taliban was anti-freedom? Do you feel that same way about the rights of American women? Is it merely my "opinion" that slavery was a crime against humanity and a blatant pissing on the principle of freedom? What is your "opinion"?

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Originally Posted by O'nus

They say the same about America.

And they are out of their skulls. I have some problems with American restraints on freedom, particularly concerning the war on drugs and how it has caused the 4th Amendment to cease to exist when it comes to automobiles. But don't try to compare our flaws with those of the Taliban. There is no contest. Do you ever recognize women you know in public? We can start there.

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Originally Posted by O'nus

Your point is entirely semantic.

Tell yourself that if you ever get blown up for looking at the Victoria Secret catalogue.

I don't know for sure that this applies to you, but it blows my mind how American liberals are so gung-ho rights and freedoms when it comes to Americans (aside from economic freedom and the right of conservatives to have talk radio shows), freaking out if a serial killer gets a tiny bit screwed over in court and puking venom in the streets over women's job and education rights, etc, YET turn right around and talk about how freedom is a matter of opinion when it comes to people of other countries and say, "Hey, the genocidal terrorist dictator does things his way, and who are we to say he is wrong?" Then they piss fire like flamethrowers if a fucking terrrorist isn't read any rights when we capture one of them in one of those "to each his own" former dictatorships. What an obvious double standard.
02-05-2009, 06:07 AM
Invader

Quote:

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

If the people do not rule, are they free?

Even people with political power are not free. One slip up and they're either out of office, or they end up without a head (French Revolution, anyone?) Besides, peoples' ideas of freedom differ greatly. It also makes a difference if you live in the wrong area and have a skin color other than white, or a name like mine that gets you pulled to the side every time you go through an airport terminal. Freedom is completely subjective, and will likely appear different to you than it does to me or the president or a random construction worker.
02-05-2009, 06:25 AM
Universal Mind

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Originally Posted by invader_tech

Even people with political power are not free. One slip up and they're either out of office, or they end up without a head (French Revolution, anyone?)

The threat of losing office because of votes is not indicative of a lack of freedom, but losing your head unjustifiably is.

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Originally Posted by invader_tech

Besides, peoples' ideas of freedom differ greatly. It also makes a difference if you live in the wrong area and have a skin color other than white, or a name like mine that gets you pulled to the side every time you go through an airport terminal.

Some Americans are freer than others, but we are still a very free country on the whole, which more and more Americans seem to be taking COMPLETELY for granted. The WWII generation got the picture because they really got to experience what it is like to have their freedom severely threatened. People today just trust the government (ironically) to take care of everything, and those people just wallow in their freedom by saying anti-American stuff and anti-God stuff on the internet and drifting around in public as they please. If those people ever lose their freedom, they will KNOW what freedom is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by invader_tech

Freedom is completely subjective, and will likely appear different to you than it does to me or the president or a random construction worker.

So the Taliban only subjectively threatened the women of Afghanistan with death for getting educations? You only subjectively have the freedom to express your opinion of the American government on the internet? No, you really do have the freedom to do it. Do you not? Find a North Korean chat room and see what they think about this. Good luck pulling that off.

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Originally Posted by invader_tech

Freedom is completely subjective

http://www.instablogsimages.com/imag...istan_7333.jpg

Where are feminists when you need them?
02-05-2009, 06:43 AM
Invader

Quote:

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

So the Taliban only subjectively threatened the women of Afghanistan with death for getting educations? You only subjectively have the freedom to express your opinion of the American government on the internet? No, you really do have the freedom to do it. Do you not? Find a North Korean chat room and see what they think about this. Good luck pulling that off.

Where are feminists when you need them?

I'll ask my black and hispanic friends how many times they get pulled over by the police, how about that? Do you think it'll be around the same amount of times you do, and for the same reasons? And do you get stopped at the airport so they can check you specifically for any strange material? Do they tap your phonecalls? And maybe next time you can show me a picture of slave workers, that way you can be sure that they'd all agree they aren't free. What you see in that picture is also the result of a developing culture, something that happens all over the world in different ways. You remember what we did to women who appeared different in the past right? Does "Burn them at the stake" ring a bell? But wait, Americans did that, we have to forget it ever happened.

At least they aren't as violent as we were and currently still are. Hey, maybe I can go to a Japanese chat room and find people who still talk about the fact that America dropped two nukes on CIVILIANS. That seems like it ranks up there in violence, right?
02-05-2009, 06:48 AM
Universal Mind

Quote:

Originally Posted by invader_tech

I'll ask my black and hispanic friends how many times they get pulled over by the police, how about that? Do you think it'll be around the same amount of times you do, and for the same reasons? And maybe next time you can show me a picture of slave workers, that way you can be sure that they'd all agree they aren't free. What you see in that picture is also the result of a developing culture, something that happens all over the world in different ways. You remember what we did to women who appeared different in the past right? Does "Burn them at the stake" ring a bell? But wait, Americans did that, we have to forget it ever happened.

At least they aren't as violent as we were and currently still are.

Getting pulled over by the cops does not come close to comparing to what people under the Taliban had to live with. As I said, we have some restraints on freedom, such as the fact that the 4th Amendment no longer applies to automobiles. I agree. But don't try to compare our issues with the ones the Afghans dealt with for so long. Iran kills people for adultery. We as a whole have gotten pretty far past that backward ass stuff, wouldn't you say?

You gave some examples of lack of freedom. Why did you do that? You seemed pretty opinionated for somebody who thinks freedom is "completely subjective". There is such thing as lack of freedom, and that is why you gave those examples.

Tell me what you think the Taliban would do if they had our level of power. If they could turn the United States into a sheet of glass, they would. Did we do that to Afghanistan? No. We liberated it.
02-05-2009, 06:48 AM
O'nus

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Don't play dodgeball. Anti-democracy is anti-freedom. I still challenge you to explain otherwise.

Of course you would, but you're failing to argue my point and try making your own argument in defense.

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So you don't think Al Qaeda is against freedom after everything you have now read? At what point do you stand against something if you are going to throw "opinion... no different" at that which is clearly severe oppression? Is it just my "opinion" that when the Taliban made the women of Afghanistan get under blankets to go in public and never get educactions the Taliban was anti-freedom? Do you feel that same way about the rights of American women? Is it merely my "opinion" that slavery was a crime against humanity and a blatant pissing on the principle of freedom? What is your "opinion"?

You are asking my political opinion again and again I am going to say I do not want to give it. My point is simply that it is a matter of opinion and almost everyone believes they are for freedom, not against.

Quote:

Tell yourself that if you ever get blown up for looking at the Victoria Secret
I don't know for sure that this applies to you, but it blows my mind how American liberals are so gung-ho rights and freedoms when it comes to Americans (aside from economic freedom and the right of conservatives to have talk radio shows), freaking out if a serial killer gets a tiny bit screwed over in court and puking venom in the streets over women's job and education rights, etc, YET turn right around and talk about how freedom is a matter of opinion when it comes to people of other countries and say, "Hey, the genocidal terrorist dictator does things his way, and who are we to say he is wrong?" Then they piss fire like flamethrowers if a fucking terrrorist isn't read any rights when we capture one of them in one of those "to each his own" former dictatorships. What an obvious double standard.

So now you're trying to paint me up as some asinine liberal fundamentalist.. Please don't do that.. You're avoiding my point which is really simple.

~
02-05-2009, 06:54 AM
Universal Mind

Quote:

Originally Posted by O'nus

Of course you would, but you're failing to argue my point and try making your own argument in defense.

What point of yours did I not counter?

A person who is against democracy is against freedom. If you can't find your way around that point, then good game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by O'nus

You are asking my political opinion again and again I am going to say I do not want to give it. My point is simply that it is a matter of opinion and almost everyone believes they are for freedom, not against.

Again, that does not mean they are right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by O'nus

So now you're trying to paint me up as some asinine liberal fundamentalist.. Please don't do that.. You're avoiding my point which is really simple.

I think you missed a key clause...

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I don't know for sure that this applies to you, but it blows my mind how American liberals...
02-05-2009, 07:03 AM
Invader

Quote:

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Getting pulled over by the cops does not come close to comparing to what people under the Taliban had to live with.

What about the way we treated african-americans only a lifetime ago? Or the natives? Or the Mexicans after we took a massive portion of what used to be their country? And selling munitions to two sides in WW1 and WW2? With the amount of influence we have, our own power extends farther around the world than the Taliban's could ever hope to achieve. This country is only 230-some years old and we have a pretty violent hisotry as it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

As I said, we have some restraints on freedom, such as the fact that the 4th Amendment no longer applies to automobiles. I agree. But don't try to compare our issues with the ones the Afghans dealt with for so long. Iran kills people for adultery. We as a whole have gotten pretty far past that backward ass stuff, wouldn't you say?

For how long? Does anyone have any idea what the answer to that question is? And Iran kills people for adultery, bad example if you ask me. We kill people here for being traitors too. Although there are vast differences between the two kinds of traitors I'm talking about, the thinking is the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

You gave some examples of lack of freedom. Why did you do that? You seemed pretty opinionated for somebody who thinks freedom is "completely subjective". There is such thing as lack of freedom, and that is why you gave those examples.

I have a subjective viewpoint, so I have my own ideas and opinions about what I percieve as freedom. Sharing my opinion does not refute my point about freedom being subjective. Does that make sense?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Tell me what you think the Taliban would do if they had our level of power. If they could turn the United States into a sheet of glass, they would. Did we do that to Afghanistan? No. We liberated it.

I think they'd try to "liberate" us and declare a war on terror.
02-05-2009, 07:21 AM
Universal Mind

Quote:

Originally Posted by invader_tech

What about the way we treated african-americans only a lifetime ago? Or the natives? Or the Mexicans after we took a massive portion of what used to be their country?

Are you sure you are reading my responses? Are you? That was some fucked up shit. Oppression, not freedom, was imposed on those people. Why do you ask?

Quote:

Originally Posted by invader_tech

And selling munitions to two sides in WW1 and WW2? With the amount of influence we have, our own power extends farther around the world than the Taliban's could ever hope to achieve. This country is only 230-some years old and we have a pretty violent hisotry as it is.

I bet you a million dollars you would refuse to live under the Taliban even if you were offered 10 million dollars to live there for five years and even if you could take your friends and family with you.

Slavery and Native American land invasions have been illegal here for a very long time. By the way, do you have a problem with those things, or do you still think freedom is subjective?

Quote:

Originally Posted by invader_tech

For how long? Does anyone have any idea what the answer to that question is? And Iran kills people for adultery, bad example if you ask me. We kill people here for being traitors too. Although there are vast differences between the two kinds of traitors I'm talking about, the thinking is the same.

No, the thinking is not the same. Treason should be punished severely. Adultery should be legal.

For how long what?

Quote:

Originally Posted by invader_tech

I have a subjective viewpoint, so I have my own ideas and opinions about what I percieve as freedom. Sharing my opinion does not refute my point about freedom being subjective. Does that make sense?

But you have an opinion on what freedom is, and your opinion goes beyond the notion that freedom is merely subjective. You recognize that which is not freedom, as illustrated by your examples of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by invader_tech

I think they'd try to "liberate" us and declare a war on terror.

Well, you can bet the farm that they would nuke us completely out of existence if they could. Those people don't believe in liberation. They believe in theocratic oppression and jihad and believe in making Americans and Israelis extinct. Do you have a problem with that?

Would you have a problem with the American government if they made it illegal for women to get educations, or would you just say that freedom is subjective?

What if you lost your freedom to trash the American government on the internet? Would you say things about it that are objective?
02-05-2009, 07:24 AM
O'nus

Quote:

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

What point of yours did I not counter?

A person who is against democracy is against freedom. If you can't find your way around that point, then good game.

This is my whole point right here. You think democracy=freedom and bin laden thinks his philosophy=freedom. Each opposing person also thinks the other is against freedom. Each thinks that the other is a terrorist against freedom, like you said.

Although, I am sure you are 100% certain that your opinion is right and that I have not experienced the "right" things to have the same opinion as you, right? Which would be exactly the crux of what bin laden is saying in your quoted link.

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I think you missed a key clause...

Right, sorry, it's hard to take that in stride when it is so closely in association to your arguments.

~
02-05-2009, 07:32 AM
Universal Mind

Quote:

Originally Posted by O'nus

This is my whole point right here. You think democracy=freedom and bin laden thinks his philosophy=freedom. Each opposing person also thinks the other is against freedom. Each thinks that the other is a terrorist against freedom, like you said.

Although, I am sure you are 100% certain that your opinion is right and that I have not experienced the "right" things to have the same opinion as you, right? Which would be exactly the crux of what bin laden is saying in your quoted link.

And which one of us is right? If women you love ever have to live like the women under the Taliban did, I think you might take a side. Just a guess. :roll:

Quote:

Originally Posted by O'nus

Right, sorry, it's hard to take that in stride when it is so closely in association to your arguments.

It helps to read carefully.

Do you see the double standard I was talking about?
02-05-2009, 07:37 AM
O'nus

Quote:

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

And which one of us is right? If women you love ever have to live like the women under the Taliban did, I think you might take a side. Just a guess. :roll:

Yeah, I realize this. You cannot seriously think I am taking up the side of bin Laden. My point is simply that he is convinced he is for freedom, not against it. Only a testament to his delusion, but the point I was making is that even he is not saying that he is against freedom.

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It helps to read carefully.

Don't be an ass - you know perfectly well the association you were making and how I would intuitively react to it.

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Do you see the double standard I was talking about?

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I don't know for sure that this applies to you, but it blows my mind how American liberals are so gung-ho rights and freedoms when it comes to Americans (aside from economic freedom and the right of conservatives to have talk radio shows), freaking out if a serial killer gets a tiny bit screwed over in court and puking venom in the streets over women's job and education rights, etc, YET turn right around and talk about how freedom is a matter of opinion when it comes to people of other countries and say, "Hey, the genocidal terrorist dictator does things his way, and who are we to say he is wrong?" Then they piss fire like flamethrowers if a fucking terrrorist isn't read any rights when we capture one of them in one of those "to each his own" former dictatorships. What an obvious double standard.

Well yeah, I do see that, I am just not like that at all, lol. That's why I called it an asinine liberal fundamentalist view, :P

~
02-05-2009, 08:19 AM
Universal Mind

Quote:

Originally Posted by O'nus

Yeah, I realize this. You cannot seriously think I am taking up the side of bin Laden. My point is simply that he is convinced he is for freedom, not against it. Only a testament to his delusion, but the point I was making is that even he is not saying that he is against freedom.

Well, there we go. I wish you had said that about ten posts back. He is against freedom, but does not use the word "freedom" when he in effect admits that he is against freedom.

Islamofascists are not fighting for freedom. They are fighting against it, no matter what kind of semantic confusion they might have. That is the point I was making. I guess you agree?

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Originally Posted by O'nus

Don't be an ass - you know perfectly well the association you were making and how I would intuitively react to it.

I was reacting to your assery, which was based on a false conclusion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by O'nus

Well yeah, I do see that, I am just not like that at all, lol. That's why I called it an asinine liberal fundamentalist view, :P

Allright. I'm glad we're on the same page there. :bigteeth:
02-05-2009, 10:10 AM
Invader

Quote:

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Are you sure you are reading my responses? Are you? That was some fucked up shit. Oppression, not freedom, was imposed on those people. Why do you ask?

I ask because those actions were executed by the same country that the Taliban want to get rid of. You seem to not quite understand why there are some people out there in the world that don't like us very much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I bet you a million dollars you would refuse to live under the Taliban even if you were offered 10 million dollars to live there for five years and even if you could take your friends and family with you.

I want to point out that you said "to live there" after you said "refuse to live under the Taliban". The Taliban is not a place. Now, you could mean that either a) The Taliban rules over more than what they have now and that they have a somewhat developed country, and THAT'S where I'd be living, or b) I'd be living in the same place they reside in now. In either case, no, I woulnd't take $10 million to move myself or my friends/family. Doing what I would not like to do for monetary gain would make me some kind of whore, and I am not a whore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Slavery and Native American land invasions have been illegal here for a very long time. By the way, do you have a problem with those things, or do you still think freedom is subjective?

A few hundred years is not a very long time. Not in a longshot. My ENTIRE POINT about what I'm referring to there is that these actions were carried out by the U.S.A., the SAME COUNTRY that other people in the world do NOT LIKE for THOSE REASONS. Is this making any sense at all to you now? That statement had nothing to do with the subjectivity of freedom argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

No, the thinking is not the same. Treason should be punished severely. Adultery should be legal.

So it should be socially acceptable for one's husband/wife to go out and screw someone else, that's what you're trying to say? Marriage is a legally binding contract for a reason. Cheating in a relationship in which the rules of marriage don't apply is already considered terrible. You are certainly entitled to your opinion though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

For how long what?

You said, and I quote, "But don't try to compare our issues with the ones the Afghans dealt with for so long." I wanted to know how long they've been deeling with these problems. A thousand years? Two thousand years?

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

But you have an opinion on what freedom is, and your opinion goes beyond the notion that freedom is merely subjective. You recognize that which is not freedom, as illustrated by your examples of it.

Please quote at least one example that I have expressly given in which I reckognize something that is clearly not freedom and state that it is in fact freedom.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Well, you can bet the farm that they would nuke us completely out of existence if they could. Those people don't believe in liberation. They believe in theocratic oppression and jihad and believe in making Americans and Israelis extinct. Do you have a problem with that?

No, I cannot 'bet the farm' on that. I cannot bet anything in terms of what I think they would or would not do. You don't know anything about how they actually think. You don't even know what Jihad is for crying out loud! The word literally means "struggle". Do you know why they use that word? It's because they get to face a military that possesses 10x the amount of technological power they have.

As far as having a problem with Israelis being extinct, no, I have no moral qualms about that whatsoever. Israel is built entirely upon what was reckognized as a sovereign nation to all of the world. Israel stole land that did not belong to them. And please tell me, how exactly is it possible for Israeli soldiers to kill more woman and children than men if they're not purposely trying to do that? You may be all for slaughtering unarmed civilians, and again, that's and opinion that you are entitled to, although I can give you no amount of respect for it.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Would you have a problem with the American government if they made it illegal for women to get educations, or would you just say that freedom is subjective?

Those two options do not contradict eachother.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

What if you lost your freedom to trash the American government on the internet? Would you say things about it that are objective?

I don't think I quite understand the second question. Would I say things about it that are objective? How do you mean?
02-06-2009, 02:43 AM
Universal Mind

Quote:

Originally Posted by invader_tech

I ask because those actions were executed by the same country that the Taliban want to get rid of. You seem to not quite understand why there are some people out there in the world that don't like us very much.

No, the Taliban's religiously maniacal hatred for us is not based on what our government did when the officials wore grey wigs before houses had electricty. FAIL.

Quote:

Originally Posted by invader_tech

I want to point out that you said "to live there" after you said "refuse to live under the Taliban". The Taliban is not a place. Now, you could mean that either a) The Taliban rules over more than what they have now and that they have a somewhat developed country, and THAT'S where I'd be living, or b) I'd be living in the same place they reside in now. In either case, no, I woulnd't take $10 million to move myself or my friends/family. Doing what I would not like to do for monetary gain would make me some kind of whore, and I am not a whore.

What? I asked if you would refuse to live in Afghanistan under the Taliban if you were offered money to do so (if the Taliban were still in power). If money means nothing to you, which I don't believe, then substitute in something that does mean something to you, like the extinction of Israelis.

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Originally Posted by invader_tech

A few hundred years is not a very long time. Not in a longshot. My ENTIRE POINT about what I'm referring to there is that these actions were carried out by the U.S.A., the SAME COUNTRY that other people in the world do NOT LIKE for THOSE REASONS. Is this making any sense at all to you now? That statement had nothing to do with the subjectivity of freedom argument.

Again, that is not the problem. A bunch of countries in Europe were involved in the slave trade and took over tribal cultures and all that shit. We are so hated because we are so powerful and influence the world away from the tight ass Islamofascist fundamentalist world the evil scum that has your heart's sympathy (supposedly) wants. That is the problem. Our presence in the Middle East brings out their ethnocentric prejudices (which you are taking up for) and prevents their totalitarian aspirations (which you have YET to condemn).

Quote:

Originally Posted by invader_tech

So it should be socially acceptable for one's husband/wife to go out and screw someone else, that's what you're trying to say? Marriage is a legally binding contract for a reason. Cheating in a relationship in which the rules of marriage don't apply is already considered terrible. You are certainly entitled to your opinion though.

I didn't say it should be socially acceptable. I said it comes nowhere near the despicable level of TREASON!!!! You take adultery as seriously as treason? Come on. One threatens the safety of the world, while the other one threatens a marriage. Get real.

Quote:

Originally Posted by invader_tech

You said, and I quote, "But don't try to compare our issues with the ones the Afghans dealt with for so long." I wanted to know how long they've been deeling with these problems. A thousand years? Two thousand years?

How is that relevant? I am not sure how long the Taliban was in power in Afghanistan. I'm sure you can Google it for whatever worth it has to this conversation. Even if they were in power for two seconds, they were far more oppressive than our government is now.

Why in the world are you being a lawyer for the Taliban? You are kissing the asses of religigious fanatics who want to kill you. Doesn't that kind of make you their bitch? I challenge you to say something bad about them.

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Originally Posted by invader_tech

Please quote at least one example that I have expressly given in which I reckognize something that is clearly not freedom and state that it is in fact freedom.

You didn't say it directly. You just kept randomly bringing up things long dead officials in our government did before my great grandparents were born. If your point wasn't that our government has engaged in anti-freedom practices, what in the world was your point?

Quote:

Originally Posted by invader_tech

No, I cannot 'bet the farm' on that. I cannot bet anything in terms of what I think they would or would not do. You don't know anything about how they actually think. You don't even know what Jihad is for crying out loud! The word literally means "struggle". Do you know why they use that word? It's because they get to face a military that possesses 10x the amount of technological power they have.

The original meaning of "jihad" and what the fanatics have made it mean are not exactly the same. Jihad is now "holy war" to the fanatics. YOU didn't know that. I do know what the fanatics think. I have quoted two of their leaders in this thread and talked about lots of their philosophies that in fact are their philosophies. Why are you in so much denial?

Quote:

Originally Posted by invader_tech

As far as having a problem with Israelis being extinct, no, I have no moral qualms about that whatsoever. Israel is built entirely upon what was reckognized as a sovereign nation to all of the world. Israel stole land that did not belong to them. And please tell me, how exactly is it possible for Israeli soldiers to kill more woman and children than men if they're not purposely trying to do that? You may be all for slaughtering unarmed civilians, and again, that's and opinion that you are entitled to, although I can give you no amount of respect for it.

You don't have a problem with extinction of Israelis? That's very warm hearted of you. Do you understand how much generalization is in your hateful mentality? Most of the Israelis who marched into the land in 1948 as a result of a United Nations resolution are now dead. Israel is many generations later now. If you think two year olds in Israel deserve to die because they are THEM, then I don't know how to steer you in the right direction. Look into the concept of individuality. That is about all I can tell you.

You support genocide of a population in which the vast, vast majority didn't steal any land. Your prejudice is blinding you. You have the mentality of a Nazi, and I mean that literally. I am not saying that as some kind of empty flame comment. It is a fact. Do the research. You do in fact have the Nazi mentality. I say that with total calmness and clarity. You condone genocide on the Jews. Isn't that what you just said?

Quote:

Originally Posted by invader_tech

Those two options do not contradict eachother.

So, would you have a problem with women in America not being allowed by the government to get educations? Why or why not? Does your answer have something to do with freedom?

Quote:

Originally Posted by invader_tech

I don't think I quite understand the second question. Would I say things about it that are objective? How do you mean?

Would you say something to the effect of, "That's not freedom! This is bull shit!"? or would you say something more like, "Hey, to each his own. Oppress as you will. Tomato/tomato."? What exactly would you have to say about the stripping of your first Amendment right to trash the government on the internet? What exactly would your argument be?
02-07-2009, 05:58 AM
Kastro187420

To me, freedom basically comes down to a few things:

Firstly, the ability to choose without fear of punishment. (Or to have your opinion heard/considered).

Secondly, Equality must be observed. You should be judged as an individual, nothing more or less.

Thirdly, Unjustified Restriction. If there is no factual basis for restriction, then it should be abandoned.

So essentially, Equality, Choice, and Restriction. If you do not have the ability to choose for yourself, or you are being judged based on what your ancestors did, or someone else of the same ethnicity or religion as you, then you are not being granted the freedom you deserve. If you are un-logically restricted, then you are not free.

I'm sure most everyone can agree with those 3 terms when it comes to freedom. If you don't agree, then I would ask you, what do YOU consider freedom to be?

Until freedom can really be given a universal answer, its hard to say who is really fighting for or against freedom. The USA, in many aspects, fights for freedom, but in other aspects, restricts it.

I'm not entirely sure where I'm going with this myself, other than when it comes to those definitions, many of the "terrorists" and other countries, oppress my idea of freedom.
02-08-2009, 07:15 AM
tkdyo

Quote:

Originally Posted by invader_tech

You may be all for slaughtering unarmed civilians, and again, that's and opinion that you are entitled to, although I can give you no amount of respect for it.

so...its OK for al qeda or hamas to do it? once again, how very one sided of you.

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