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Open mindedness to new ideas is great. Hanging on to old ideas which have been disproven is not.
Science is a methodology of inherent openmindedness, but if you have an idea we simply ask that you give evidence for it.
This is basic rational thought.
Most people realise that believing something somebody says is true just because they think so without any justification is a stupid idea - at age 8 or so. Get with it guys.
Like i said, i am keeping the debate open. Do i believe it? it as in free energy which i am guessing you are talking about. Not really..it sounds too good to be true, but i will not say no and throw a 100% hell no ban hammer on it. I don't really understand free energy or how it would work except the obvious it will fuel everything. I can't defend something i do not understand, but i believe that things that are proven wrong in todays eyes, down the road can be possible. I just CAN'T see things that are impossible in todays eyes impossible in tomorrows eyes for tomorrow has not come around. Perhaps there are a few steps we are missing in understanding something. I dunno...i just can't disagree 100%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
When did science ever prove free energy wrong?
All science has done is observed that energy is never created in any circumstance, so there is no reason to think that free energy should be possible.
There's not really any reason to despair though, because technologies such as nuclear fusion could well be possible in a few years, potentially providing an essentially unlimited energy source; harnessing the energy that already exists inside atomic nuclei.
I wasn't even going as far as free energy.
Lets stick with the basics -
I first only want a 'yes or no' on the extraterrestrial life thing.
I wonder - What kind of evidence would be necessary for
a convinced skeptic to believe it, if it were true?
We don't have enough evidence to say for sure. We do know, however, that almost as soon as water condensed on Earth, life began; which shows that it may be a likehood with the correct conditions. We also know that there at least 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars, which basically means that even if the probability of life starting was relatively small (which, as I just mentioned, it isn't anyway), the probability of there being lots of life in the universe would still basically be 1.
The strongest form of evidence would be if we actually found some life. There are a few places in the solar system where it might exist.
Well, the people at the press conference are claiming,
to have loads and loads of evidence. I can't really varify
it from where I am - but it should be somehow possible.
(They show pictures, they have thousands of testimonies,
many many documents and they are of high rank, etc)
There is stuff going on, but it just doesn't hit the mainstream.
So you'd have to keep yourself up to date.
I guess the only way, to really check the facts, or dismiss
them, is, if there is an awareness of the subject. It should
be accepted to be scientifically varified - lay open all the files.
But this will not work, without public acknowledgment, that
these questions are real and should be dealt with in an
according way.
Because: When we know and it is in fact true -
we can start asking different questions. And it wouldn't
matter anymore, if we think of it as theoretically possible or not.
http://www.ufoevidence.org/welcome.asp
(You can also find a lot of official government files)
Plus:
Regardless of the unidentified objects beeing alien or human -
I'd still kind of like to know, what they were.
I am very sure, that there is a lot of bullshit out there,
a very high percentage of the pictures are very likely fake.
And I am very aware of how easy it is, to fake them.
But all it takes is one person, out of the million, to not lie.
Nonetheless - I'm not trying to convince anyone, that wasn't
the purpose, of why I created the thread (Also since I try to
stay 'without opinion'.) But I do think it is a pretty exciting
topic to think about.
Since when do half-baked testimonies, low quality video of flying objects, and government files count as evidence of anything?
I guess we're talking about two different things then..
If you mean that there's evidence of UFOs, then I agree. BUT, and I cannot stress this enough, the big leap is NOT going from "no UFOs" to "there are UFOs". The big leap that requires very strong evidence is going from UFOs to alien spacecraft. Most UFO people just sort of gloss over the most important bit. I have never, in my life, seen a single shred of convincing evidence for UFOs being unambiguously non-human.Quote:
Originally Posted by dajo
Ok, good. I can get on board with that.
But I think it's also wrong to fall into
the other extreme and to dismiss everything.
But still:
What would count as valid evidence?
- Pictures and Videos can easily manipulated.
- People lie.
- If they are not involved with the government or
have an official function, they are crazy and not
believable.
- If they are people of the government
and of high rank - it's a conspiracy.
- On the one hand, people want the government and
the CIA to release the files, on the other they can't be
trusted.
It's a little frustrating.
Some indicate it, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by drewmandan
For example that one guy, describing how they look like.
True. And guess what, in no mainstream field of science, except perhaps zoology, are videos ever used as evidence. And even in zoology, a new species isn't confirmed until it is captured and eventually dissected.Quote:
Originally Posted by dajo
And in this case they have motive to lie.Quote:
Originally Posted by dajo
That's why real scientists don't use anecdotal evidence. This isn't a conspiracy to hide the "truth", it's simply accepting the fact that someone saying something did or didn't happen means nothing. But that doesn't mean the likelihood of there being aliens on Earth is somehow 50/50 or something. Expecting EVIDENCE for unreasonable claims is not closedmindedness.Quote:
Originally Posted by dajo
Do you realize how silly this sounds? Honestly.Quote:
Originally Posted by dajo
Yes, that's why i also said limited life in one of my posts. This ain't stargate SG1 or Atlantis where life is BOOMING in every galaxy, AND all humans. Hell there are probably just a few planets that can support us breathing it's air. But what i find intresting, out of all the planets out there we have seen on hubble, Earth while it's extremly small, looks like the most beautiful planet from space then the rest. I guess because it's rich on life, or just a big cosmos coincidence. Of course if there is life on other planets there is a high probability that we wont be able to visit without wearing suits with air. I would love if there was another planet that looked like Earth in space, can support our air via trees or another means. It would be pretty cool to fly down in your shaceship and explore the life, or no life on the planet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
If you're at all familiar with how gravity effects the way objects travel through space, the entire possibility of interstellar space travel (let alone intergalactic) opens up to us. You don't actually have to travel faster than the speed of light in order to reach a distant star (300 LY away, for example) in a timely manner (A few days travel, give or take). It has to do with the manipulation of an artificial gravitational field that would be generated by the spacecraft so that it can alter the amount of distance it travels in any given amount of time while still moving at the same speed. Does that make sense?Quote:
Originally Posted by nitsuJ
Gravitation to be used as an aid for transportation in space travel is another thread in itself, so I wont go nuts here. I'm just trying to say that your assumption is unfounded.
Well, even special relativity allows for travel times much shorter than the what the stationary observer would expect, but I don't think manipulating gravity would alleviate the problem of stationary observers seeing much longer travel times, no matter how short the journey is for the occupants. As far as I know, the only metric that has been proposed that's capable of solving that problem is the wormhole, but that requires negative mass.Quote:
Originally Posted by invader_tech
It's not really about statistics, though. It's either yes or no onQuote:
Originally Posted by drewmandan
the question, if we (as human) know of extraterrestial life or not.
(And by that I mean, if there are people that know,
then it means, that 'we' know)
Ah, in this case I meant, what would be enough evidence for 'you' to believe it.Quote:
Originally Posted by drewmandan
Just IF it was true - would there be any way, to change your mind? How?
At what point would you say, 'I was wrong, I'm convinced'?
Strictly hypothetically speaking of course.
...but do you see the point I was trying to make?
Yes :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by drewmandan
And I really had to laugh right now.
But - silly is just not very scientific. These
people are serious about their claims, are
in a position that should justify them to be
taken seriously - and therefore should
be checked, regardless of the sillyness. :D
When they have been disproven, than we
shall laugh and point fingers.
I'm sure there are lots of people that "know" there are aliens among us. There are lots of people that "know" there are giant purple bunny rabbits among us. There are lots of people that "know" pigs can fly. "Knowing" something does not mean it's true.Quote:
Originally Posted by dajo
How could I be wrong? I haven't made a definitive statement, unlike some people. All I have said is that no one has given me any evidence for the outrageous claims.Quote:
Originally Posted by dajo
What would I need to see? An alien ship, or a piece of a ship, that demonstrates a level of technology humans don't have. This would require electron microscopy to verify. Anything less could be faked. I could also be convinced by an alien itself, but again, the analysis would have to be extremely detailed to rule out a fake. I would need to see cell samples, internal organs, DNA (if applicable), etc.
That's just the thing. You can't disprove them. Their claims are unfalsifiable. Where I come from, that's when your bullshit detector is supposed to start lighting up.Quote:
Originally Posted by dajo
:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by drewmandan
That's not what I meant.
I wasn't saying you did a definite claim.Quote:
Originally Posted by drewmandan
My point merely was: It would be really difficult to prove the
existence of aliens to a confident skeptic. I'm not saying the skepticism
is not justified. Just saying this should also be taken into consideration.
I don't think they are unfalsifiable. Not at all!Quote:
That's just the thing. You can't disprove them. Their claims are unfalsifiable. Where I come from, that's when your bullshit detector is supposed to start lighting up.
It's just a mess and now noone can tell what is true and what's not.
All I'm saying in this debate is, clean up the mess
and come up with a few reasonable explanations.
(not you 'you' of course)
Doesn't matter what you think. The claims are unfalsifiable. Sorry, that's just a fact. No matter how many times you show them that this UFO is a plane, or that UFO is a balloon, they can always say, "ah, but we just haven't found a real one yet". Unfalsifiable.Quote:
Originally Posted by dajo
So far as we know, certainly. Our solar system is still considered relatively young though, which means the other intelligent civilizations out there may very well have had millions of extra years to develope and discover otherwise incomprehensible means of traveling through the known universe.Quote:
Originally Posted by drewmandan
C'mon. You didn't watch any of that either, did you?Quote:
Originally Posted by drewmandan
There are UFO claims that are unfalsifiable. But not all of them are.
And those are the ones, that I'd want to have checked out.
You don't understand what I'm saying. Even if the "falsifiable" claims are proven wrong, there are still UNFALSIFIABLE claims to fall back to.Quote:
Originally Posted by dajo
Ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by drewmandan
But I'm still not talking about that.
There will always be people who will believe, regardless of the evidence.
That's just not a justification to dismiss everything.
My point is: Now there seem to be claims that are falsifiable, investigate them in a fair dealing manner. But - I think it will happen eventually, since these conferences (and all that) aren't really very 'secret'. Just a slow-going process.
let's imagine that thousands of spaceships are witnessed simultaneously by millions entering earth's orbit, recorded and documented by the masses - leaving no question at all that spaceships by the dozens has just entered earth
and let's imagine that alien like beings are witnessed by the masses exiting the spaceship
as quickly as they come, they leave
is this absolute evidence that we were visited by space beings?
we have no physical evidence, no dna, no space ship to touch with our bare hands. on top of that, before this event a conspiracy spreads throughout the internet. warning people of an advanced technology that can create large scale holographic illusions. so realistic and grand, you can make Jesus appear in the clouds for the world to see
or
let's say before or after this event, a large number of military and government personal, from various nations testify that we human beings have - spaceships. not the kind you see in NASA, but ones that defy your classroom physics. and then, a smaller number of these military and government personal warn us of an 'illuminati', out to create the largest hoax mankind has ever seen, alien invasion.
to use fear of aliens to control us and establish a new world order.
this hoax includes the classic UFO's defying our conventional ideas of space travel, and bioengineered beasts, hybrids of earth based animals, to pose as frightening aliens
or worse
that these thousands of UFO's seen entering earth's orbit are limited to only one continent on earth - South America. And all South America nations witness - First Contact! But you won't find first contact witnessed by millions in the US newspapers, or the US news. Only on the internet. When questioned, US reporters make south americans seem to uneducated to tell us if first contact actually happened. And pass it off as some sort of 'mass hysteria'.
These three things sound crazy? There ALREADY IS a large group of people ready to deny first contact as some sort of hoax. And there are thousands of americans that will never believe we have been visited, unless America was visited.
what ever the case, the human mind is capable of accepting and denying anything. no science can tell you what is, and what isn't. in the end, you decide yourself what truth is absolute. We already have both extremes on earth, from those who say without a doubt we have been visited by aliens since mankind has existed. To the next extreme, aliens never and never will exist.
until I have my own experience with UFOs and aliens, I will have faith in mankind. If thousands of people are saying they have a direct experience with UFOs and aliens, I'll listen.
For what it is worth, i actually DID watch the whole video. Bored as hell, so i am like "why not..." Took me about 4 days.
Actually, the US would have reporters capturing this. Sources would be phoning in, word will travel fast to US, they will fly over as quickly as possible, assuming they are not already there in the first place. It's not like the aliens will enter orbit, then fly off. They may need to refuel their craft which will take a while, then they will be reporting things from outside their ship to their commanders or whoever is in charge unless they are free and answer to nobody, but then they would not need all those ships in the first place. I am also sure that they will be seen far before they even reach Earth, aswell as a trajectory and what time they will land at their current speed they are moving at now.Quote:
Originally Posted by juroara