Right to Commit Suicide?

[De-lousedInTheComatorium]

This thought popped into my head out of nowhere today. I have absolutely no history of suicidal thoughts, nor do I plan to. It is merely something to think about. Should people be allowed to commit suicide if they want? I've heard these stories of someone about to jump off of a bridge to commit suicide and then a random police officer doesn't let him/her. Or similar stories like that. Should the government really label you as mentally unstable because you're choosing to bring a death to yourself now that you will experience one day anyways? Suicide has had many different lights shed on it by legal systems of different countries. Here's a bit I pulled from Wikipedia: Spoiler for Suicide laws: Australia (Victoria) In the Australian state of Victoria, while suicide itself is no longer a crime, a survivor of a suicide pact can be charged with manslaughter. Also, it is a crime to counsel, incite, or aid and abet another to attempt or commit suicide, and the law explicitly allows any person to use "such force as may reasonably be necessary" to prevent another from committing suicide. England and Wales Suicide (and thus also attempted suicide) was illegal under English Law but ceased to be an offence with the passing of the Suicide Act 1961; the same Act makes it an offence to assist a suicide. While the simple act of suicide is lawful the consequences of committing suicide might turn an individual event into an unlawful act, as in the case of Reeves v Commissioners of Police of the Metropolis [2000] 1 AC 360 [3], where a man in police custody hanged himself and was held equally liable with the police (a cell door defect enabled the hanging) for the loss suffered by his widow; the practical effect was to reduce the police damages liability by 50%. India In India, attempted suicide is a punishable crime by up to one year in prison and/or fine. For a brief while, the courts had repealed the section of the penal code which prohibited suicide but a recent decision of the Indian Supreme Court has upheld the constitutional validity of prohibiting suicide. Ireland Attempted suicide is not a criminal offence in Ireland. Assisted suicide and euthanasia are illegal however. Under Irish law self-harm is not generally seen as a form of attempted suicide. Netherlands In the Netherlands, being present and giving moral support during someone's suicide is not a crime; neither is supplying general information on suicide techniques. However, it is a crime to participate in the preparation for or execution of a suicide, including supplying lethal means or instruction in their use. (Euthanasia may be an exception. See Euthanasia in the Netherlands.) Russian Federation In Russia, inciting someone to suicide by threats, cruel treatment or systematic humiliation is punishable by up to 5 years in prison. (Article 110 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation) Scotland Suicide is not an offence under Scots Law thus there is no offence committed by attempting suicide as there is in England and Wales. A person who assists a suicide might be charged with murder, culpable homicide or no offence at all depending upon the facts of each case. Singapore In Singapore, a person attempting to commit suicide can be imprisoned by up to one year. United States In the United States, suicide has never been punished as a crime nor penalized by property forfeiture or ignominious burial.[citation needed] Historically, various states listed the act as a felony, but all were reluctant to enforce it. By 1963, six states still considered attempted suicide a crime (North and South Dakota, Washington, New Jersey, Nevada, and Oklahoma that repealed its law in 1976). By the early 1990s only two US states still listed suicide as a crime, and these have since removed that classification. In some U.S. states, suicide is still considered an unwritten "common law crime," that is, a crime based on the law of old England as stated in Blackstone's Commentaries. (So held the Virginia Supreme Court in Wackwitz v. Roy in 1992.) As a common law crime, suicide can bar recovery for the family of the suicidal person in a lawsuit unless the suicidal person can be proven to have been "of unsound mind." That is, the suicide must be proven to have been an involuntary, not voluntary, act of the victim in order for the family to be awarded money damages by the court. This can occur when the family of the deceased sues the caregiver (perhaps a jail or hospital) for negligence in failing to provide appropriate care.[4] Some legal scholars look at the issue as one of personal liberty. According to Nadine Strossen, President of the ACLU, "The idea of government making determinations about how you end your life, forcing you...could be considered cruel and unusual punishment in certain circumstances, and Justice Stevens in a very interesting opinion in a right-to-die [case] raised the analogy."[5] In many jurisdictions medical facilities are empowered or required to commit anyone whom they believe to be suicidal for evaluation and treatment. See Code 5150 for example. I'm not sure where I stand on it as I've never actually thought about this before.

[Descensus]

I think people should be able to. Of course no person in their right mind would commit suicide out of the blue, but those who have been really screwed over in life should have the option. This is not to say I think they SHOULD commit suicide, as I would suggest some type of counseling/advice first, but making it illegal is ridiculous.

[ClouD]

Everything is suicide. It is beautiful.

[LucidFlanders]

Why the **** is it even a crime? someone else, YES, but yourself? retarded.

[Kiza]

I must take the opportunity to quote Terry Pratchett: Suicide was against the law. Johnny had wondered why. It meant that if you missed, or the gas ran out, or the rope broke, you could get locked up in prison to show you that life was really very jolly and thoroughly worth living.

[Invader]

What Kiza said... That quote is made of win. And no, it should not be against the law. If a police officer tried to arrest me for doing it, I'd assault him/her on purpose in the hopes that they shoot me out of self defense.

[Mes Tarrant]

I'm not sure where I stand on the issue either, but, just to bring up an argument from the other side: Homicide is illegal for a very good reason, and that is to promote a functional society. And suicide is just a very special case of homicide. If suicide were legal, that would be like saying: Listen folks, it's NOT okay to kill people, but it's okay to kill YOURSELF. (Why? Am I not a person, too?) Homicide being illegal and suicide being legal would be very contradictory. If something's going to be against the law, it may as well be against the law evenly across the board. But obviously there's no easy solution because Terry Pratchett's quote there sums up the problem quite well!

[nitsuJ]

It's your life, it's your decision. But, it's not in the human's nature to kill themselves, so in that case they are mentally unstable. It's supposed to be in our nature to survive, not die.

[Kiza]

I have to counter that, Mes. Y'see, homicide is impinging on the freedom of another person. Namely, the freedom to not be killed. It may not be a very sophisticated freedom, but it's a pretty big one. Suicide, though, is in your hands. You're not impinging on anyone elses freedom except your own. And your freedom is completely yours, as is your life, and both are decided by you as to what to do with them. I don't necessarily support suicide. Sometimes, there are better way of resolving things. But the point remains valid. Also, Everything is suicide. It is beautiful. :/ Explain.

[Mes Tarrant]

^^ I agree with that argument, although I doubt it would convince law-makers. Whenever I hear the it's your life argument, I think of some 14 year old boy shouting at his mom, "It's MY life, I can do whatever I WANT!" and slamming his bedroom door.

[nitsuJ]

^^ I agree with that argument, although I doubt it would convince law-makers. Whenever I hear the it's your life argument, I think of some 14 year old boy shouting at his mom, "It's MY life, I can do whatever I WANT!" and slamming his bedroom door. It is his life, and he can do whatever he wants. Even though his decision may be stupid, since he is more than likely stupid. People make dumb decisions, suicide *in most cases* is one of them.

[Mes Tarrant]

Surely there must be a more eloquent argument than "it's my life and I can do what I want with it." I mean... surely! Come on! Maybe one reason why that argument is really only used by kids is because adults understand that it's not always about your life.

[Kiza]

So, basically what you're saying, nitsuJ, is it's his choice. Free will, right? Please, correct me if I'm misunderstanding you. Yes, there is free will. And, if through his suicide he doesn't impinge on anyone else, I kind of agree with that. Free will, though, is not an excuse to whatever the hell you want. I'll have to pinch another quote from Terry Pratchett for this (somewhat paraphrased): "There is always a choice." "You mean I could choose certain death?" "A choice nevertheless, or perhaps an alternative. You see I believe in freedom. Not many people do, although they will of course protest otherwise. And no practical definition of freedom would be complete without the freedom to take the consequences. Indeed, it is the freedom upon which all the other are based." Basically, that's free will for me. Yes, you can do whatever you want, but you're going to have to face the consequences if you really believe it's an excuse to do whatever you want. I realise that was a bit of a tangent. I just wanted to get that out.

[nitsuJ]

So, basically what you're saying, nitsuJ, is it's his choice. Free will, right? Please, correct me if I'm misunderstanding you. Yes, there is free will. And, if through his suicide he doesn't impinge on anyone else, I kind of agree with that. Free will, though, is not an excuse to whatever the hell you want. I'll have to pinch another quote from Terry Pratchett for this (somewhat paraphrased): Basically, that's free will for me. Yes, you can do whatever you want, but you're going to have to face the consequences if you really believe it's an excuse to do whatever you want. I realise that was a bit of a tangent. I just wanted to get that out. So you disagree that suicide should be a person's choice, because I'm talking about free will to commit suicide, and you've kind of confused me with the "Free will, though, is not an excuse to whatever the hell you want." statement! :p Everyone knows the consequences of suicide, death. That's the only thing they'll have to face if they succeed.

[Kiza]

Yeah, that probably was confusing. Really, I was agreeing with you. The other freewill bit was just a random tangent, because I'm a pretentious bastard. Yes, the only consequence of suicide is death. I was just ranting on about people who use "free will" as an excuse to do whatever the hell they want. Once again, to me, most of the time suicide is the wrong choice. They have the right, but that doesn't mean they're right to do so. Heh. I'm hilarious.

[nitsuJ]

Yeah, that probably was confusing. Really, I was agreeing with you. The other freewill bit was just a random tangent, because I'm a pretentious bastard. Yes, the only consequence of suicide is death. I was just ranting on about people who use "free will" as an excuse to do whatever the hell they want. Once again, to me, most of the time suicide is the wrong choice. They have the right, but that doesn't mean they're right to do so. Heh. I'm hilarious. I agree with what you've said. I think suicide is dumb, and a coward's way out. I believe if some people just sat and thought to themselves, "is suicide really worth it," they'd change their minds. Most of the time people commit suicide because of relationship problems, probably. That's the majority of suicide reasons I've heard of. Relationship problems, seriously? You must be kidding me. Think of all the kids/adults that's abused physically/verbally every day by their parents/spouses/partners. The people starving each day not knowing when the next time they'll get a meal. The people laying in a hospital bed somewhere slowly dying and in extreme pain. Not to mention other problems. Does that relationship problem look as bad as these others now? I doubt it does. Some people are just spoiled and come to dumb conclusions. Suicide is never the answer, it doesn't really solve your problems if you really think about it. Suicide does more harm than good the majority of the time anyways.

[Mes Tarrant]

Right. Maybe one more obvious reason why suicide is illegal is to try to discourage people from trying it. That is, you can try it, but you'll be in big trouble if you fail. I do wonder what the general public's reaction would be if suddenly it was announced that suicide is legal.

[nitsuJ]

Right. Maybe one more obvious reason why suicide is illegal is to try to discourage people from trying it. That is, you can try it, but you'll be in big trouble if you fail. I do wonder what the general public's reaction would be if suddenly it was announced that suicide is legal. Probably be a huge outcry! I wonder if it became legal would all of the kids that cry "suicide" for attention still do it?

[Kiza]

It may just be my severe sleep deprivation . . . but isn't it? United States In the United States, suicide has never been punished as a crime nor penalized by property forfeiture or ignominious burial.[citation needed] Historically, various states listed the act as a felony, but all were reluctant to enforce it. By 1963, six states still considered attempted suicide a crime (North and South Dakota, Washington, New Jersey, Nevada, and Oklahoma that repealed its law in 1976). By the early 1990s only two US states still listed suicide as a crime, and these have since removed that classification. In some U.S. states, suicide is still considered an unwritten "common law crime," that is, a crime based on the law of old England as stated in Blackstone's Commentaries. (So held the Virginia Supreme Court in Wackwitz v. Roy in 1992.) As a common law crime, suicide can bar recovery for the family of the suicidal person in a lawsuit unless the suicidal person can be proven to have been "of unsound mind." That is, the suicide must be proven to have been an involuntary, not voluntary, act of the victim in order for the family to be awarded money damages by the court. This can occur when the family of the deceased sues the caregiver (perhaps a jail or hospital) for negligence in failing to provide appropriate care.[4] Some legal scholars look at the issue as one of personal liberty. According to Nadine Strossen, President of the ACLU, "The idea of government making determinations about how you end your life, forcing you...could be considered cruel and unusual punishment in certain circumstances, and Justice Stevens in a very interesting opinion in a right-to-die [case] raised the analogy."[5] In many jurisdictions medical facilities are empowered or required to commit anyone whom they believe to be suicidal for evaluation and treatment. See Code 5150 for example.

[De-lousedInTheComatorium]

It is his life, and he can do whatever he wants. Even though his decision may be stupid, since he is more than likely stupid. People make dumb decisions, suicide *in most cases* is one of them. I've always thought that too. Hearing about suicide has always angered me because it seems like a selfish thing that only leaves the person's loved ones in pain. But... Is it really a stupid decision? Is he really more than likely stupid? I mean, considering we don't know the circumstances of a person's suicide. We don't know why or what reasons they have for committing the act. It's like abortion. People say it's dumb unless under the circumstances of rape or incest. If I said, "I killed someone today." You may be horrified and disgusted. What if I said, "I killed a well-known serial killer, child rapist, and bank robber."? Now that you actually know the situation, does it really still seem dumb?

[Mes Tarrant]

It's like abortion. People say it's dumb unless under the circumstances of rape or incest. If I said, "I killed someone today." You may be horrified and disgusted. What if I said, "I killed a well-known serial killer, child rapist, and bank robber."? Now that you actually know the situation, does it really still seem dumb? Abortion is an entirely different situation because the fundamental conflict of abortion is if/when the fetus is considered a human life. Such a conflict does not exist with suicide. If you killed someone today, it would seem dumb under any circumstance because if you kill someone today, maybe you will kill someone tomorrow, and then somewhere down the line maybe you will kill an innocent person.

[De-lousedInTheComatorium]

Abortion is an entirely different situation because the fundamental conflict of abortion is if/when the fetus is considered a human life. Such a conflict does not exist with suicide. If you killed someone today, it would seem dumb under any circumstance because if you kill someone today, maybe you will kill someone tomorrow, and then somewhere down the line maybe you will kill an innocent person. I mean in terms of "Well it depends..." kind of stuff. The same way people think abortion is okay under certain conditions, can't suicide be the same way? Not legally, but logically.

[Mes Tarrant]

Yeah I suppose. Like if you're slowly dying at the hospital from 80% burns or something, and you just want to speed up the process.

[ClouD]

Everything is suicide. It is beautiful. :/ Explain. We are running our selves into the ground. That is the only thing to do. With every breath, dying, expending. We all have 'right'. By birth, we have every right. We can kill another person with that birthright, restrict them from killing themselves, proclaim laws. We are animated soil, waves of the ocean overlapping into ourselves. Yes, I say this dance is beautiful.

[nitsuJ]

I've always thought that too. Hearing about suicide has always angered me because it seems like a selfish thing that only leaves the person's loved ones in pain. But... Is it really a stupid decision? Is he really more than likely stupid? I mean, considering we don't know the circumstances of a person's suicide. We don't know why or what reasons they have for committing the act. It's like abortion. People say it's dumb unless under the circumstances of rape or incest. If I said, "I killed someone today." You may be horrified and disgusted. What if I said, "I killed a well-known serial killer, child rapist, and bank robber."? Now that you actually know the situation, does it really still seem dumb? That's why I said in most cases suicide is dumb, I can see some reasons a person would consider suicide and it'd be a decent decision. Like someone with cancer so bad that they're going to die soon anyways, and they're in constant pain, or something terrible like that. But, people killing themselves because their girlfriend/wife, or boyfriend/husband leave them, or some other stupid reason like that is just dumb. Those people should be punched square in the face by kangaroo.