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ex-Lance Corporal David Motari
The footage
Asshole. I don't care if he was discharged for it, that's just not right.
He commented on the video after the fact, saying that normally they would have shot and killed the puppy, but he was "trying to be creative."
Old news.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...9014215AAPKhnS
It is kinda fucked up, but the explanation written in the link does make sense. I'm not saying it's right, but it is understandable how desensitized and darkened you would become after being shot at. If it truly was starving/sick and there wasn't medicine available, I suppose the humane thing to do would be to kill it the quickest way possible as to prevent prolonged suffering. He should have just shot it.
In my opinion, it was more of him being stupid than being malicious or evil. Many people who watched the video didn't realize that the dog was going to die anyways so they thought the soldier just wanted to kill the dog for no reason. It is still the wrong way to do it though. To me, it was just out of him making a dumb decision or trying to be funny to his friend/s instead of wanting to be mean and kill a puppy.
That's f'ed up...
I mean, if the dog was just going to die, then why not leave it alone, or inject it with something to let it go peacefully?
Yes, if it was just going to die from sarvation anyways, slowly and painfully (which I can believe, regarding that it was in the middle of nowhere with no food source) than he was right in killing it. But, as you said, he didn't need to "be creative."Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Eagle
I'm wondering if it was a lapse in judgement though. Was the dog really stray or had its mother gone out to find food or something? But I don't know much about feral dog behavior.
That seems like an over the top way to kill something. Obviously the dog had been alive up until he had found it. I wonder how it had survived all that time if it was sick and going to die anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by slayer
Yeah, inject it with the regulation supply of barbituates...
Come on. The best they could do was shoot it. He threw it off a cliff - not too much different, it probably died pretty quick.
What the fuck? That is fucking wrong. Somebody tell me why the fuck that son of a bitch did that. Personally, if I could meet him, I'd push him off a fucking cliff, show him how it fucking feels.
Sorry, anger release, that was cruel though.
Yeah, after a good round of pure, unabated (and completely unnecessary) terror, while being flung through the air like a javelin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick
What's worst about the video is not that they killed the puppy, and not really all that much about how they killed the puppy - it's how much they enjoyed killing the puppy. It says a lot about them, and I think it's pretty sick. Of course, they are Marines, they are expected to be killing machines, but "getting creative" about (allegedly mercifully) killing a puppy by laughing and saying "aww how cute" before slinging him off a cliff and video taping it to show to their buddies is pretty demented.
How much different would the story of Old Yeller be if they punted the dog off the cliff, screaming "later, bitch!!" and laughing their asses off, after she contracted rabies?
"Mercy-killing" or not, it's still pretty fuckin sick, if you ask me.
I can understand why he did it. The dog was certain to die anyway, espescially considering it was a puppy, however, it probably wasn't necessary to throw it off a cliff.
To be fair to them, they could have done a lot worse things to it. It wasn't as if they were torturing the puppy, also, from that height the fall would have killed it near instantaneously.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning their actions, he definitely should have shot it (the guy himself admits that).
Shooting it would be a waste of bullets.
As well as giving away their position.
Exactly.
Why was the dog's death certain without a mercy killing?
Where did this happen? A google search about this guy leads to some "fast facts" which is just stuff you might not have known.
Spoiler for http://www.mahalo.com/Marine_Throws_Puppy:
Didn't look like much of a cliff... I'm sure it might have survived that?
I don't know whether it would survive the fall or not since it was small, but what I care about is where was his proof that the dog was going to die? Nothing in that video makes me think that puppy was sick or hurt.
That was horrendously unnecessary. That dog didn't look unwell to me. It was definitely not lathargic as it cried the moment it was tossed until it hit the ground.
If they were truly trying to put a creature out of its misery, they wouldn't have gotten "creative". It wouldn't have been fun and games.
He should have went with "undue stress" or "combat fatigue". THOSE excuses I MIGHT be able to believe. But granting mercy to the pup is not one of them.
I don't necessarily believe he should have been discharged, though. Everyone involved should have had manditory psych evaluations and treatment.
OMG.. that was so unbelievably horrible.
And as others have said.. what if the puppy didn't die from the fall?
I have tears in my eyes right now. How could anyone find humor in that? :cry:
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That's fucking disgusting. group of demented sicko's.
god.. I shouldn't have clicked the link..
I cried inside when I saw that! :(
I can't begin to express how pathetic you people are. A dying puppy was thrown from a cliff, to its certain death (don't bullshit me, an animal of such a size wouldn't survive any kind huge drop) and you're all throwing a shitfit and going on about how the marines are sick psychopaths. You might aswell go yell at little Timmy who burns ants with his magnifying glass.
Not all of us are throwing "irrational" fits.
Viewing the video, the pup doesn't look bad. Are people to take the word of a man who laughs at throwing puppies to their death- justly or unjustly so? Who's to say they weren't just bored one day.
Which is why I would've made them see a shrink.
And yes, I yell at children for burning insects alive and pulling off their legs and wings. Nothing should be tortured. If it's going to die, let it die or help it along humanely.
I'm rather sensative to the subject though. When I spent the summers with my grandmother, there were a group of kids at the end of the street who used to stick firecrackers etc. inside frogs and up the butts of kittens, throw them into the air and watch them die.
Hearing that puppy cry all the way to his death is not cool, no matter what was wrong with it.
But I don't stereotype all servicemen as crazy, just that lot.
You're all right of course. It's sick, and wrong. But I don't think anyone here has been to Iraq or can understand how serving in the army there could change your mind. I think we should give the soldiers the benefit of the doubt here.
What amazing Fail.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvo
What's pathetic is your trying to justify what they did by using an analogy that shows that you not only don't know the difference between the cognitive states of a dog and an ant, but replaces the two, full-grown offenders with "little Timmy."
Please. If you're going to be such a dick in your next post, display a little more logic than that. (Then, for your own benefit, go back and edit your post and take out the part where you're being such a dick.)
:bowdown:Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
Wait, all he got was discharged? He should be in jail, and for a long time.
On the other hand, hunting down and killing an animal with a gun probably causes more fear, pain, and stress on an animal (seeing as you can't just walk up to an animal and shoot it in the head) yet most people aren't strutting around complaining about hunters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
I've never been hunting, but aside from maybe animals in open fields, you don't go running after animals, you stay in a spot they are likely to come to and hide and then as soon as they show up you shoot. At least I think that is how they do it. When my cousin was young he went hunting and it disgusted me because he was bragging about how he had to shoot the same deer 6 times because it wouldn't die. I don't think he tried to make it suffer though, so I'm not that upset about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Eagle
I do get upset when I hear horror stories about the first one or two shots not killing the animals.
I do complain about people who hunt for sport alone. In West Virginia, deer hunting is hugely popular. People use deer stands or quiet tracking through woods and the animals never even knows what hit them. Of course there are some exceptions and I have a problem with some of them. Inducing terror in a creature isn't necessary.
I had a rabbit business once. I went into it completely blind and ignorant. I fed and watered them in their cages every day and I kept their cages clean and well sheltered. Yet every day I would go out and find more bunny bodies, cute feet sticking out from the bars as if pleading for escape. I was planning on selling some of the rabbits as pets and others as meat. One of the meat rabbits was sick, so I mustered up some courage and snapped its neck, skinned it and examined it (mostly to get used to the task). But when they kept dying, for no apparent cause, I couldn't bare it anymore and freed them.
And the strangest thing happened. They all survived and thrived. I walked out to the barn every day to feed and water them and they would flock around my feet.
I found out, after much research, that they had been dying because I had been feeding them mulch hay. Mulch hay tends to get infested with a mold that rabbits are HIGHLY sensitive to. When they were free I had stopped given them the mulch because our field is covered in hay and they could eat it whenever they wanted.
Before I released them though, one rabbit had given birth to several babies. After a couple weeks it was obvious the little one wouldn't make it. I wanted to learn how to preserve the pelt, so I tried snapping its neck like I had done the other one. It didn't work. I tried 2 more times and only caused the poor one unbelievable pain. I was crying my eyes out, petting it, trying to ease the pain I had caused. I wasn't about to try and fail again so I left it to die in shock. When I skinned it, I dicovered I had broken it's back and one of its legs. It never occurred to me that baby rabbits- like baby people- have more resiliant bones. And I have never forgiven myself for what I did.
It is horrific for me to hear people LAUGHING while causing terror and pain on any creature. It wasn't the laughter of commradery (sp) or even excited laughter while in the "thrill of the hunt", but laughter aimed AT the suffering of the puppy.
I think that's what most people have a problem with.
Owned.
~
Why don't you people care equally that these marines are killing people and children?
http://fi.somethingawful.com/images/smilies/emot-v.gif Because they are shooting them rather than throwing them off cliffs. Can't you imagine the sheer horror?
Who says we don't...Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldney
.
War happens, violence happens, people bleed, people die, people are molested.
Your life is meaningless, everything is devoid of purpose, it is nonsense. The war over resources is perpetual and mixed with a sense of purpose over creeds. However, you're nothing but a pale blue dot. There's no reason for you or anyone else to be alive.
Worrying about it is folly, complaining about it is folly. It happened, it's going to continue to happen, and there's nothing anybody can do about it.
Voice your opinion but do so in remembering that it's pointless. No one cares, nothing will really change. Puppies will fly off cliffs again another day. Children will be raped.
Don't reinforce it with attention. Don't reinforce it by acknowledging it.
If you don't like it, don't do it or reinforce it. But don't think you can prevent it from happening again - because it will.. over and over and over..
Humankind is a face being stomped on by a boot repeatedly.
Edit: I contradict myself by posting this.. so I'll just appear arrogant. Hopefully someone gets something out of this.
~
I don't really like people hunting for pure "sport."Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Eagle
I am tolerant for people who hunt for food and or practical reasons. Even with that being the case, standing on top of a ridge with an uzi and screaming "Hahahaha! Die aminalz!!!" is not respectable hunting, in my eyes (even if it was for food), which is the equivalent of what the soldiers did in the video.
The most obvious answer would be: Because it has nothing to do with this conversation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldney
I'm sure if you look real hard, you can find plenty of threads about peoples' feelings toward soldiers and war, as it pertains to human death.
Life is not an onus, O'nus is
Hopefully someone gets something out of this.
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I agree with everything [O'nus] said, except for the above quote.Quote:
Originally Posted by O'nus
...Not that my opinion matters, of course. :wink:
Huh?Quote:
Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia
How come?Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
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Zhaylin that story traumatized me. :P I thank you.
Man....
:hug: Mes Tarrant. Yeah... when I'm sleep deprived I tend to get too chatty :?
I hate rabbits to this day... not because of anything they ever did or didn't do, but because I know exactly how fragile they are and my memories still HAUNT me. It's never been an event I LAUGHED about. Which is why I don't believe for one second that what that man did was out of "mercy". He didn't kill the dog to do it a favor and he didn't need it for food and neither was it threatening his life. So what does that leave?- mental instability or outright cruelty.
That's nothing compared to what happened to a dog in the Town that I live in. Poor dog was dragged by a truck.
http://www2.canada.com/victoriatimes...f43449&k=47627
Clearly you're not reading enough Carl Sagan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
"Enough?" Enough to what? Fall in line with his opinion? I can form my own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvo
Well, first - to show that I don't completely disagree, I will say this: The universe, itself, doesn't matter. It is pointless. From a perspective that tries to take in the universe as a whole, you're right. Unfortunately, the notion falls apart when looked at it from our (humans) perspective.Quote:
Originally Posted by O'nus
What I feel is pointless is when we (humans) try to base such absolute statements ("nothing matters") and philosophies off of anything other than the human perspective. For, you see, we are all human - and to humans, there is very much that matters. "What matters" is subjective. No matter how much anyone wants to try to see the concept from whatever angle, "what matters" is still going to change. Knowing this, it is practically impossible to say "nothing matters" with any sort of accuracy. It's like someone adapted to living on the moon saying that "water doesn't matter," simply because they've been adapted to living without it.
From a cosmic perspective, do humans matter? No. From the human perspective, do humans matter? Yes. (As in the case of the soldiers.) Humans shape the world we live in. They interact with us everyday. They interact with our children (sometimes maliciously). These things matter to us - unless you're the type of person who could have their child raped and killed, and just say to yourself "oh well. These things happen," and continue on with your life with no sense of loss. Or could lose all your arms and legs and just think to yourself, "ah well. That sucks. So anyway, I wonder what time the game starts?" After a time, you can learn to adapt, but that is only because you've found away to make your losses not matter to you.
What matters?
That depends on who you're asking.
Oh, I took your post as misunderstanding what he was writing as in, you had no idea what he was writing.
If you actually have no idea what he's talking about, watch this video;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p86BPM1GV8M
It's a 4 minutes speech kinda deal by Carl Sagan, accompanied by a neat little slide show. Puts our existence into perspective.
Theres some hypocrisy here. Earlier on you talked about cognitive states and, in the little Timmy example, implied that ants aren't as important as dogs due to this difference in cognition. By the same rules, humans are more cognitively complex than dogs, so you should all be proportionately a LOT more outraged about the hundreds of humans killed everyday by troops in the middle east. The uproar that this one puppy's death has caused just highlights how silly people can be. Get a grip.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
I was making a Carl Sagan reference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
I agree with everything here. There's just two perspectives we can then take after examining this.Quote:
Well, first - to show that I don't completely disagree, I will say this: The universe, itself, doesn't matter. It is pointless. From a perspective that tries to take in the universe as a whole, you're right. Unfortunately, the notion falls apart when looked at it from our (humans) perspective.
What I feel is pointless is when we (humans) try to base such absolute statements ("nothing matters") and philosophies off of anything other than the human perspective. For, you see, we are all human - and to humans, there is very much that matters. "What matters" is subjective. No matter how much anyone wants to try to see the concept from whatever angle, "what matters" is still going to change. Knowing this, it is practically impossible to say "nothing matters" with any sort of accuracy. It's like someone adapted to living on the moon saying that "water doesn't matter," simply because they've been adapted to living without it.
From a cosmic perspective, do humans matter? No. From the human perspective, do humans matter? Yes. (As in the case of the soldiers.) Humans shape the world we live in. They interact with us everyday. They interact with our children (sometimes maliciously). These things matter to us - unless you're the type of person who could have their child raped and killed, and just say to yourself "oh well. These things happen," and continue on with your life with no sense of loss. Or could lose all your arms and legs and just think to yourself, "ah well. That sucks. So anyway, I wonder what time the game starts?" After a time, you can learn to adapt, but that is only because you've found away to make your losses not matter to you.
What matters?
That depends on who you're asking.
We can look at the puppy being thrown off the cliff and ask, "How is this going to affect the universe?" or "How is this going to affect ourlives?"
In both cases, I answer the same - not at all.
I'm not sure if you see my point or not but.. what matters depends on who you are asking, yes, because it is always up to others to decide what matters. If you decide that this does not matter, then nothing will come of it and it will not be given so much attention. To best exemplify what I mean, because it is now well known, a soldier has a potential to say, "Hey, let's throw that puppy off a cliff like in that video" and others have a possible inclination to know that they could get media coverage.
Just think - you now know of this persons name and a bit about their life because of this thing that apparently is "not liked" yet reinforced. It is like giving attention to a child for doing bad things. Just ignore it. And it won't matter.
~
EXCEPT- if the soldier was truly otherwise mentally sound and a decent person, it could indicate he was suffering greatly because of the war and could regress further, killing people on a whim instead of animals.
By acknowledging the issue and punishing it, it reinforces to the public and other soldiers that such heartless and/or thoughtless acts will not be tolerated... which may hinder others from behaving in a similar fashion.
I thought this too but by displaying the behaviour to others it still reinforces the behaviour. He threw it off the cliff for laughs and for attention and so this is a form of success. The more people talk about it, even negatively, the more successful it is. It is like making a thread on the boards here about how annoying a troll is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhaylin
Do you think that it might have been better to isolate the issue as much as possible and have close ones doe the punishment rather than society..?
I just hope no child see's the video and think it might be amusing to throw his own puppy off his patio or something.. it's better to quell the idea BEFORE seeing it happen than to make an effort to make examples. No?
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There is no hypocrisy there. As I said before, the only reason there isn't much talk here about the soldiers killing humans is because it's in no way related to the discussion started by the OP. There are plenty of threads explaining how I (and others) feel about the war, the killing of humans - and a myriad of other concepts that have nothing to do with this puppy - all over the forum. Exactly what would be the point of my jumping to outline those views in this discussion? I feel they are irrelevant. That does not make me hypocritical, in this context.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick
Oh, ok. I see.Quote:
Originally Posted by O'nus
Those are not the only two perspectives that can be gained from the video. An example of another would be "How do people, who have the same disregard for 'upper lifeforms' affect our lives?"Quote:
Originally Posted by O'nus
To ask yourself this question, is to open an entire universe of possibly negative answers.
It's true that what these soldiers do have no direct impact on our lives, but - more fundamentally - the mindset that these soldiers display (having excuses for belittling the experiences and/or deaths of other creatures) is what infects millions of other humans and affects our lives on a daily basis.
Not necessarily true. A troll does what he does because he intends to cause such stir. This marine might not have really thought he was doing anything that would have been as ill-received as it was. Doing it "for attention" doesn't always mean the perpetrator got the sort of attention he was intending. "Publicity" and "negative publicity" are two different things. They might accomplish a mutual goal - making you more well-known - but to what cost?Quote:
Originally Posted by O'nus
I somewhat agree with this. Though I appreciate the knowledge that comes from seeing these types of events, I'm not completely ignorant to how the media's showcasing of them paves the way for copycats. I'm pretty much on the fence about this one. I can't say that I've weighed both sides of the coin to a degree where I'm comfortable with saying whether the media should or should not tell us about occurrences such as this. I am comfortable in my indecision on the matter, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by O'nus
[Edit:]
Oh, and Marvo, I will watch the video in just a little bit.
[/Edit]
It really depends on what you are hunting that determines how you hunt it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandform
This disregard for puppies is nothing compared to the tragedies of murder in war. This is hardly a demonstration of the most depravity of our soldiers. I grew up on the barracks and come from a long line of army in my blood and this is nothing compared to the other shit that happens in war.. So, I can't help but feel that there is always ugly things during war.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
Now if I saw a regular everyday child throwing their puppy off a cliff, then I might twinge a little more.
Yeah, it's true that this can be derived from a destructive and sociopathic personality. However, again, it's a different context considering they are in war anyway. Killing a puppy ain't so bad compared to raping a family, now is it? Now we can step in and say, "They are both bad and both exhibit a bad behaviour" and this is where you must remember where they are and what they are doing. "That's no excuse for that behaviour" is not going to quell them from acting violent. The simple bottom line is - don't be surprised that a soldier throws a puppy off a cliff. Be surprised and upset when your child does.Quote:
It's true that what these soldiers do have no direct impact on our lives, but - more fundamentally - the mindset that these soldiers display (having excuses for belittling the experiences and/or deaths of other creatures) is what infects millions of other humans and affects our lives on a daily basis.
Well, there was a camera. I don't know how to tell if it was for attention or not but joking infront of others while on cam is certainly asking for attention to some degree. It's there. Nothing compared to a troll's desire for attention, but it's there.Quote:
Not necessarily true. A troll does what he does because he intends to cause such stir. This marine might not have really thought he was doing anything that would have been as ill-received as it was. Doing it "for attention" doesn't always mean the perpetrator got the sort of attention he was intending. "Publicity" and "negative publicity" are two different things. They might accomplish a mutual goal - making you more well-known - but to what cost?
I think we agree on the whole matter really.Quote:
I somewhat agree with this. Though I appreciate the knowledge that comes from seeing these types of events, I'm not completely ignorant to how the media's showcasing of them paves the way for copycats. I'm pretty much on the fence about this one. I can't say that I've weighed both sides of the coin to a degree where I'm comfortable with saying whether the media should or should not tell us about occurrences such as this. I am comfortable in my indecision on the matter, though.
Let's be honest, if we saw the guy, we'd likely both do the same thing, *Facepalm*
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I don't see why this is in SB. This is serious business, guise.
Oh my god! Where can I find this guy!?...
Sucks that he got discharged. He may have gotten blown in half or something.
He needs to be thrown off a cliff.
He is probably a sick monster who joined the army for the purposes of killing other humans without getting into trouble.
He is probably a sick monster who joined the army for the purpose of throwing puppies off cliffs without getting into trouble.
Mistake #1: You made it a video.
Does anyone that's crying over this realize why these marines are there in the first place? Apparently it's a huge fucking tragedy that they killed this puppy but it's ok to shoot bullets with the intention of killing another persons child. I fail to follow that logic.
No. You fail to follow the thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpecialInterests
If you did, you'd realize that their 'reason' for being over there has already been addressed as having nothing to do with this thread, and why throwing around that argument is nothing but a strawman.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
Right. Keep sympathizing for the puppy and the puppies family then with the rest of the pathetic grievances. Get real.
You can state the same position as many times as you want, in as many ways as you want. It means nothing in the context of this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpecialInterests
What do you want? For us to go off on a tangent about our opposition to the war, or for us to state our praise for the war, and of the soldiers killing other humans? The point is, those opinions are expressed, at length, on other parts of this forum, but not a single one of them has anything to do with the video or this thread.
Either you can realize that, and contribute to the conversation, or go on one of the many other threads where the sentiments you are voicing are already being expressed to continue to outline your point.
Ok. Thank you for clarifying my options for me. I have came to my final conclusion after many moments of strenuous thought and debate that I will contribute to the conversation in a positive, constructive way.
I feel terrible for the puppy. What did the puppy do to the soldiers? He was just an innocent puppy! Did you guys see the face on the puppy right before he was viciously tossed off the cliff? I felt so sorry for him! I hope you guys are keeping the puppy in your prayers. I know I will be sending flowers to the site of this tragic event.
Sorry if my words prior to this post came off as controversial to the topic of his thread. My condolences.
Unfortunately, your sarcasm comes off as just as hollow as your initial, irrelevant post (seeing as how you seem stuck on making the same point which - still - has nothing to do with this thread).Quote:
Originally Posted by SpecialInterests
But hey, thanks for your input.
Don't know if this has been mentioned before or not, as I only really read the first few posts...
I saw this quite a while ago, last summer I believe. Anywhoot, from what I recall, the dog was dying anyway. I mean, he could have shot it, but if they were in an undisclosed location, shooting the dog with an unsilenced gun would have given away their position and wasted ammunition. Granted, it's probably not neccesarry to throw it off a cliff, but come on. What if they gave away their position and that whole crew got wasted by enemy fire?
What then?
There is a difference between pulling the plug on a comatose patient, to end their life, and making a comedic performance by moving them around on strings like a puppet in front of a crowd before working the pulling of their plug into the act like it's pure entertainment.Quote:
Originally Posted by AmazeO XD
Well he is just expressing his opinion on the matter, and his opinion is that there are more serious issues in the world than that one miserable guy throwing off that one puppy.
But one reason why this comparatively small event is important is the psychology behind torturing/killing a helpless living creature. If you can throw a puppy off a cliff just to have a laugh, maybe you'll throw a human child off next. This is the heart of the whole situation, IMO, and the reason why it shouldn't be taken lightly.
And don't get me wrong - I haven't once said that there is anything wrong with his opinion. In fact, I actually agree with it. My point is that if anyone is going to come onto this thread and (even inadvertently) insult those who have an adverse reaction to this event - while crying about why no one is complaining about the 'more important things' - they will have to contend with the fact that the 'more important things' have nothing to do with this conversation, which is why they weren't brought up here. But they are expressed (by many of the same people who have posted here) on more relevant threads.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mes Tarrant
Saying that 'there are more important things to think about, concerning the soldiers and the war in Iraq' really has nothing to do with peoples' opinion on this particular act.
I would say that there are more people in the world deserving of being thrown off a cliff in that manner, than there are animals.
And if the dog really was dying, they certainly could have found a much more humane way of taking care of it. And why film it?
Stupid people do stupid things. Coincidence is, he's a marine. Shouldn't be one if you ask me, the marines are soldiers, helping people, keeping peace, looking like heroes, not throwing dogs. They could have shot it, but it would have given away their position, yes. They could have broke it's neck, but why stop there, let's be complete asses and make a group of people look bad because we feel it's fun to torture a dying animal.
Who said the puppy was dying in the first place? That maniacal mother fucker in an attempt to make himself look like less of an ass? The bastard had a great time throwing the dog to it's death, you hear it whelp in the video as it was hurtled through the air, and you see him smile afterwards. That is in my opinion psychopathic. The lest you can do is give it a humane death. As for little Timmy comparison, where does it stop?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvo
Humane - another example of how humans like to project their beliefs on everything around them because they're so self-important. I don't think a dog shares the same beliefs as humans. It probably doesn't care how it dies.
anyways humans are by far the meanest species on this planet, this doesn't surprise me at the least.
So let me ask you something(s) - and answer as honestly as you can:Quote:
Originally Posted by SpecialInterests
Have you ever owned a pet?
If you had a dog that was your companion for a decade, and some stranger came along and shot your dog in the head, would you look at your dead dog and say: "Hmmm. Ah well. Dogs die all the time. Hey, I'm hungry...who wants pizza??" (or something along those lines?)
If not, and you can feel even the slightest bit of empathy for the animal, or the slightest bit of loathing for the kind of person that would find fun in killing an animal, then there is a bit of hypocrisy.
And if "what's more important" is all that's important: Would you be ok with the killing of a young sister or brother, if you knew that their death saved the lives of 20 other people? Is that something you'd be willing to just be "fine" with? You state the superiority of "what's more important" as if, in other situations, that concept renders any other 'less important' acts as unworthy of protest.
They are the meanest species because the are really the only species that gets mad... Animals have instincts to protect themselves. If you kick an alligator, it's not going to get pissed on go on his forum and right something wrapped in <rant> </rant>, he's going to sense a threat and bite your leg off to prevent it from happening again. If you go near a Bear's cubs, the mom isn't going to think you look sort of like michael jackson and she doesn't want a child molester near her children, she's going to instinctively scare you away because you're closer to her children then she is, which is a threat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpecialInterests
I don't think assholes have the same beliefs as humans. They probably don't care if there last moments on earth are being hurtled into the air, the sense that you are too far up to come down on your legs, then land and feel the pain as their banes crunch in on themselves, slowly and painfully blocking the lungs and speeding up the heart, until all they can hear is their gasping breathes wasting their time and the speeding beat of the heart as it leads up to death. So let's go out and kill as many as we can, don't worry, they don't mind.
I think you give humans too much weight and underestimate other animals. I mean what about the lion who crept into a hyena's den and took a cub when no one was looking, lazily tortured it somewhere, waited for it to die, and then left its body to be picked up by whatever creature wanted it?
I think other animals are capable of anger, vengeance, spite, whatever.
Eh, instincts for survival. A lion can't think "oh, if i torture that hyena, how will I make it's family feel?" Animals don't have free will. They may have anger, but it's so they kill, they kill to eat. They torture the hyena, theey take it's den, they get shelter. All for survival. A dumbass doesn't have to throw a dog over a cliff for survival, shelter, food, or even for entertainment. It's sick and twisted.
The point of that story is that there was nothing about taking any shelter over, or eating the kill, or anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarboy
What do you mean, animals don't have free will? How do you define free will then?
All I'm saying is that some animals are a lot more complicated than most people think, but hardly anyone ever has the will to educate themselves on this topic.
Most animals. Who knows what intelligent animals think, but I'm thinking something along these lines. If a lion sees a deer, it thinks, I kill it, I get food. It's not going to be thinking, If I kill it, what will happen to it's young, how will i make it feel. It won't feel guilty, it will feel stuffed. I don't know though, I'm not a lion.
I have an extreme prejudice towards anyone that would harm an animal. Especially defenseless pets. For any other reason than defense, or the need to eat/survive. And also towards those who would defend the act of harming one.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpecialInterests
It's pretty ignorant to think they don't care how they die. They know as much terror and pain as anyone would.
So how about you all ship yourselves over seas for god knows how long, constantly fearing for your life, with a gun in your hands, aimed to kill another human being.
You know that's what marines are trained to do, right? To kill.
I'd have a fucked up sense of humor if I was trained to murder for my country.
Ah, so if a marine shoots your family pet, it's ok?Quote:
Originally Posted by AmazeO XD
Chalk it up to PTSD, right?
Something tells me you wouldn't be that apathetic, had you any reason to feel related to the loss of that animal's life. No one is doubting that marines are trained to kill. I think I even acknowledged that in my first post. But no one who has the least bit of common sense can deny what being in harm's way does to a person's psyche. This does not mean that whatever a marine (or former combatant) does is pardoned. Their service is taken into account (at least in my case) but does not completely excuse their actions - for the simple fact that there are many soldiers that come back without the desire to turn the killing of another living thing into viral entertainment.
My brother is fine, he's a marine. He wouldn't throw a dog over a cliff and the laugh at it :shock: I got to admit though, he laughs at his friends' pain (:D) I do too, it's fun to see stupid people do stupid things.Quote:
Originally Posted by AmazeO XD
Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarboy
Lmao, we have a winner!
A marine wouldn't shoot my family pet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
There's a big difference between a family pet and a freaking wild animal.
Everyone forgets that a dog is a fucking animal. It's just like a giraffe or a kangaroo. Dogs (like cats) are more domestic though, so people get more upset over it.
A marine wouldn't walk into my house, and shoot my dog (if I had one).
A domestic dog is raised by a family, and is therefore a "pet".
A wild dog is raised in the wild, and is therefore an animal.
I acknowledge that he killed a puppy, but don't compare it to a domestic animal. It was a sick, wild animal.
I don't think Oneironaut meant to direct the point so much between the distinction of animal and pet. More that if my marine grandma doesn't go kill your dog then another marine shouldn't do so and be excused because of his similar experiences.Quote:
Originally Posted by AmazeO XD
And if some guy threw a live baby giraffe or kangaroo off of a cliff because he didn't want to waste bullets on the animal he thought was terminally ill (with his limited knowledge of animal sicknesses) and had it taped it for humour, I think there might be some negative feedback.
Hey guys, I threw this terminally ill (well, I thought it was; I have limited knowledge of animal sicknesses) live baby kangaroo off of a cliff because I didn't want to waste bullets on the animal, and taped it for humour.
Want to see it?
A cop shot my best friend's 9 year old doberman - which I had known for 7 years and was a sweetheart who wouldn't have hurt a fly.Quote:
Originally Posted by AmazeO XD
On what grounds can you justify assuming that a marine wouldn't shoot your family pet?
Exactly. Mercy-killing is one thing. Mercy-killing and making a comedic performance out of it is another thing entirely. The video displays the latter, and should not be dismissed solely as the former.Quote:
Originally Posted by ClouD
Well, if an asshole shoots your dog, you hate assholes.
If an asshole shoots your pet, but happens to be a marine, you hate marines. I hate stupid people in general, so this would cover it. I wouldn't prejiduce(or however it's spelled) a group because one asshol who happens to be in it is an asshole. But i think im off topic.
From what I gathered by skimming over posts in this thread...most people are bothered by "how" the marine chose to execute the puppy. How being inclusive of demeanor, body language, excitement etc. Not so much as the actual throwing of the puppy. To those who say "nothing justifies what he did", let me ask you a question, - what if the marine briefly (in a serious manner) explained that the puppy was sick, starved, dying and instead of killing him with his gun, he needed to preserve his ammo as well as not make a lot of noise. What if he said that he was going to give the puppy a mercy kill so as not to wander around sick and dying and THEN had tossed the puppy over the cliff. Would that have been better in your eyes? If so then it's not so much the act you have a problem with, it's the jovial state of mind the marine was in that you have a problem with.
Which leads me to my next question. If you fall into that category where you think it wasn't the deed so much as the jovial state he was in then what should he be punished for? His jovial state in which he chose to execute the puppy or the execution of the puppy itself? If the first is what you choose then it's probably safe to say we should lockup and punish everyone who expresses even the slightest bit of glee in a conversation about killing someone or something. Be it in jest or not.
I do not condone the actions of the marine, in fact I'm glad his ass was discharged. If the mercy kill was literally "meant" to be a mercy kill and ammo preserving reasons were in the back of his head then I think what he did wasn't that bad. It's his mannerisms and state in which he chose to kill the puppy that I'd like to punch this fucking guy in the face for.
I kind of sort of read that. I am pissed that he killed the animal by throwing, when he could have easily broke it's neck quickly and without a fucking flight through the air and the brushing feeling it gets after it lands, then slowly dies. What made me post was that he was laughing about it.
Even if it ws a mercy kill and preserving ammo, and not giving away his position, he could have put the fucking camera away, broke it's neck and walked away.
Why the fuck did they video tape it. That is just sick. They are laughing too.
The projection comes from the projector.
Don't be so hard on yourselves.
http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/1/.../Projector.jpg
Either explain yourself such that most people will understand or don't bother saying anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclic13
I pretty much get what you're saying here, but you really need to try and put it in a form which doesn't shout out the impression that you don't feel the need to explain yourself to us wee serfs.
This and That.
Tomato.
Potato.
You may be making profound sense to yourself and I'm sure you are, but you're coming off as a holier than thou idiot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclic13
If something seems so... it must be so, no?
Sadly, all the seeming in the world doesn't change what is.
And what is, remains beyond any one's futile justifications to seem this or that about anything.
:3
But how do you know it doesn't just seem to you that what is is beyond anyone's futile justifications to seem this or that about anything?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclic13
I know nothing.
In knowing nothing... nothing starts to come into focus.
Then one realizes... nothing is what it seems.
To think otherwise would seem arrogant me thinks.
But seem as one may... nothing makes perfect sense...
Exactly :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandform
First, they decided to join the army and before joining, everyone knows that they could be sent off to fight in another country, so, you should at least have prepared yourself for that scenario. Second, do we even know the condition of the puppy? You say give them the benefit of the doubt. How do we even know that the puppy was dying and that there was nothing that could be done to get him healthy again, huh? Do you really want me to take their word for it? How do I know they aren't lying to justify their actions because they were bored or wanted to do something malicious? Third, there are other options avaliable besides throwing it or even shooting it. They could have had it euthanized or whatever the term is. If I remember correctly, its a painless process, even then, I still don't think they should have done anything besides trying to treat it and if all else fails, then its time will come :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick
Thank you, someone finally says something decent :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
lol, ok, no one is arguing that marines aren't trained to kill, but, they are only to kill if someone is trying to kill them, so, self defense or if there is a war where they are being shoot at and they have to shoot back. That puppy wasn't trying to shoot at them, infact, he wasn't doing anything. You wanna know what I would have done if I was in their place? If the puppy was indeed sick, I would have found an animal hospital and took it there. As someone here mentioned, the US seems to be running an animal shelter, so, he could have easily had it transferred there, but, no he decided to take the more fun route and send the poor thing to its death. There is nothing justifable about that. To me, I see every human and animal life as important. The only time I would ever see a justification in a killing is if someone was attacking me and I was using self-defense and I just happened to kill him/her/it, etc.... otherwise, I wouldn't hurt another soul :)Quote:
Originally Posted by AmazeO XD
A much better movieQuote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
I'm surprised people are still talking about this video.
All this situation proves is how dangerous submitting footage to the internet is.
A marine is trained to kill the enemy.
this is just pathetic, he goes and laughs about killing a dog when he could have been getting rid of some terrorist instead.
Any marine in my family would tell me that's fucked up.
*Moved to Extended Discussion*
LOL. No argument, there. :chuckle:Quote:
Originally Posted by PhantomBPR
this thread has made me lose all hope in the sanity of DV members
the sickest minds I've ever met in my life are here
Please juroara, explain what you mean by those two statements?Quote:
Originally Posted by juroara
THANK YOU for moving this thread lol
I often wondered why it was in Senseless Banter to begin with :D
Funny story that shows the killing of the puppy was pointless..
http://www.wptv.com/entertainment/we...4SN_wDfYw.cspx
Animals can survive on their own.. If the dog only needed to find food...
Easy way to solve this. Take out your pistol, place it at the guys head, pull the trigger. It would give 1 less asshole to the world. I don't care how stupid these things may sound but these retards are better off dead. If only i was in the army and there.:lol:
edit- Marines, not army.
Me too, minus the last sentence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Everlong
I'm Sorry, but I really feel disgusted at some of the people on this thread. I didn't see any evidence that the puppy was sick. If it was, The marine could just have broken it's neck or a similar quick death, there was NO NEED to throw it over a f**king cliff!!!! I'm no animal rights activist, but I hate with a passion cruelty to animals, especially for the purposes of *fun*. Now I know this is opening up a whole new can of worms, and i know that humans aren't the same as animals, but just think. If there were a sick person, who wanted to be euthanized, and who's death under your control, which would you do: throw them off a cliff, or give them a quick death? There was absolutely no point in making the last few moments of that dog's life full of terror. And, I'm sorry, but it could definitely had a chance of surviving for a while after it hit the ground. I mean, people SKYDIVE, hit the ground without a parachute, and survive/recover. Can you honestly tell me that this dog couldn't have lived for a few minutes after the impact? I'm glad this bastard was discharged, I would gladly punch him in the face if I saw him.
*EDIT* Oh, and also, don't think that I value this dog's life over a humans. I despise killing of people too. So don't try the "so you're bothered about this but not the fact that marines kill women/children etc.". Because yes, I hate that that happens even more, but this still made me sick to my stomach. How could anyone do such a thing? I really don't understand.
I watched this and didn't feel disgusted or anything. I just thought "whatever". I think everyone is taking this too far. Get over it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon Parasite
My thoughts exactly. I mean, it's not right, it's a living creature and terrible to treat it that way, but this became a bigger deal than it needed to be.
Get over it, you're making it seem like we all said "Haha! It was sick anyway, they might as well get a show!" I don't think many people said that....Quote:
Originally Posted by Madmax100
Stop reviving this thread, the pig fucking epidemic is the new crisis.
And how incriminating it is to film something like that in the first place... Too many soft hearted people.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhantomBPR
If it was a cockroach you wouldn't care.
*facepalm*
Roaches only live 6 days or whatever, why in the hell would they through a roach off a cliff, and it would survive. Stupid,stupid,stupid analogy.
if it were a terrorist you wouldn't care
Much better.
Terrorsist aren't cute and cuddly.
Lol. I saw a roach about 15 mins before that post.... it was stuck in my mind =OQuote:
Originally Posted by guitarboy
At least you got the point though. =P
Oh boy. I left this for weeks, and expected it to be long dead when I came back.
Now I find that it's been moved to Extended Discussion and is, in fact, thriving.
:shock:
You people.
OK... You don't get it, do you? I'm in the Army and I haven't seen action, hopefully never will. But I understand what it is like- It's a fucking war-zone, HUMANS are trying to kill them and they must shoot back- do you think they give two shits about a dog? They were being merciful to the thing, and yes, it would have been more humane to shoot it.Quote:
Originally Posted by slayer
There are no injections, there is hardly enough supplies to sustain them. They are going into combat without body armor against high calibre bullet rounds. You are asking for an injection for a fucking dog. It's war, there's no such thing as 'humane' in the general sense when you're killing PEOPLE every day. Hell, at least the hippies are whining about Marines killing people and not dogs...
And here's another thing- You should show them more damned respect. They're out there busting their asses and following orders, orders that some do not agree with. I don't agree with the war in Iraq, but the minute I am asked to saddle up, I will simply answer "Yes Sir!". My heart goes out to the men and women on the frontlines.
And slayer, sorry about choosing your post to rant, as most of my post applies to this whole thread, but the injection thing is bullshit. >_>
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good as Gold
We all know it would be rough, but it does not let you do whatever you want just because some retarded terrorist is shooting at you. Animals get the shaft, just because they aren't humans.
No, I don't think he should have done that. It goes against the Code of Honor in that he did something morally questionable. However, CO's, and NCO's even moreso see this everyday and wave it off, after you've killed and seen friends die you HAVE to joke about death, or go nuts. I think that an overzealous CO made a huge stink out of this when a few hours of PT would have sufficed.Quote:
Originally Posted by LucidFlanders