Should guns be legalized off the coast of Somalia?

[Universal Mind]

The battle we had with Somali pirates the other day was with four pirates from a group of 1500 who are terrorizing one of the world's most important trade routes. It is a very large scale problem that is really messing up trade and foreign aid. Guess what. Guns are illegal under maritime law in that part of the Indian Ocean. However, that is not stopping the pirates from having guns, lots of guns and lots of very powerful guns. Surprise surprise. Those pirates know that legal traders and even humanitarian aid workers boating through the region want to keep their jobs and do things legally. The pirates know that ships are sitting ducks in the area because the people don't have guns. So, of course, the bad guys have guns and the good guys don't. I am glad that has not happened to the United States. Should guns be legalized for boaters moving through the dangerous area? http://hamptonroads.com/2009/04/soma...ht-three-shots

[Invader]

I believe some ships have military escorts, but you raise a valid question. My answer to this is yes. I do believe that guns should be an allowable tool to use against hostiles. I believe the benefits would outweigh any potential downfalls (although I cannot see how this could possibly cause a negative impact when piracy is already growing rampant). Acoustic 'weapons' have also been developed and tested successfully against real pirate threats. These are currently implemented on the larger cruise ships that vacationers use. Or, it's possible that they'll have enough encounters with Navy Seals to make them retire out of fear of imminent and unavoidable death.

[Specialis Sapientia]

I think acoustic weapons and powerful water canons would be better, as it is now the pirates rarely shoot at the civilan ships, because the wan't the ransom and don't want to harm the sailors. I think that if the sailors had weapons, firefights would be much more common, which will result in fatalities on both side

[ninja9578]

Guns increase violence, anyone who has the slightest knowledge of history will tell you that.

[Taosaur]

I see no reason why traders in these waters shouldn't be allowed guns, but I'm not sure arming them would have as much impact as getting an effective international police force out there. In an arms race between merchants and pirates, pirates historically win; it's not until national navies crack down that the balance shifts.

[Universal Mind]

Guns increase violence, anyone who has the slightest knowledge of history will tell you that. What do you suggest for stopping merchant and foreign aid ships from being sitting ducks? Until the Navy Seals jumped in the other day, the pirates were not at all afraid of attacking the unarmed ships. Do you have a solution to offer? I think that if the sailors had weapons, firefights would be much more common, which will result in fatalities on both side That is true. It is a matter of war as far as I am concerned, and there probably would be some innocent casualties. However, I think the pirate population would shrink majorly and maybe completely. Then families can stop going through the horrifying nightmare of having their family members kidnapped, foreign aid can reach its destinations, and international trade can get back on track. Or, it's possible that they'll have enough encounters with Navy Seals to make them retire out of fear of imminent and unavoidable death. It might possibly take that.

[Tornado Joe]

I think there are plenty of technological solutions (rather than weaponry) out there if we really wanted to take the time to research it. We can spot a frog's ass from the edge of space, why not use those satellites to relay info to the shipping traffic? Or maybe mounting a device on a commercial ship that gives of the signal that it identifies it as friendly (like the military aircraft "IFF"). Any ship or small watercraft not emitting this signal gets investigated. If no reply - SPLASH! Of course, someone would eventually come out with somekind of hack for it - but just how sophisticated are these somalies? The only drawback I see with this idea is that it opens up the whole "global big brother" issue.

[grasshoppa]

Modern Day Pirates...I love it.

[Universal Mind]

Modern Day Pirates...I love it. Maybe you should go over there and ask for their autographs.

[grasshoppa]

I'll join their ranks...It's in my blood.

[Hercuflea]

They should be legalized everywhere.

[Xei]

Well, the US went to war with an entire country over a threat which didn't even exist... I don't see why they should hold back over a tiny bunch of primitive, scummy pirates. :l

[Universal Mind]

Well, the US went to war with an entire country over a threat which didn't even exist... I don't see why they should hold back over a tiny bunch of primitive, scummy pirates. :l This is not an Iraq thread. We don't need to discuss the fact that the Hussein regime was a ceasefire noncompliant terrorist government with a history of WMD terrorism and a track record of genocide. We do not need to talk about how we should not have liberated Tibet Sudan Alabama Iraq.

[Xei]

I wasn't trying to talk about Iraq, I was making a point about the US's foreign policy. Obviously.

[ninja9578]

What do you suggest for stopping merchant and foreign aid ships from being sitting ducks? Until the Navy Seals jumped in the other day, the pirates were not at all afraid of attacking the unarmed ships. Do you have a solution to offer? The military should protect the trade route, they have guns. Civilians with guns leads to problems. Everyone knows that. Protection for the ships: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_weaponry http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...d.php?t=103405

[Universal Mind]

The military should protect the trade route, they have guns. Civilians with guns leads to problems. Everyone knows that. Protection for the ships: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_weaponry http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...d.php?t=103405 The military cannot escort every ship that moves through that enormous area. If you think guns are a bad idea for the merchants, that's one thing, but I get the impression you are saying that people should not be allowed that form of protection even if they want it. Do you think they should be forced to not have the protection of a gun when moving through the area? They should just be sitting ducks and hope for the best while knowing the military is somewhere else in that part of the ocean? Don't forget that the pirates ARE going to have guns. Their knowledge that the merchants and foreign aid workers are not going to have guns increases the pirates' will and confidence. It makes the pirate life much more attractive than otherwise. Right?

[ninja9578]

Did you even look at the sonic weapon or the ray gun link? They're non-lethal, but equally effective. Deterrents are responsible, killing people is not. Guns create an arms race and that will always escalate out of control. Guns are for lowlifes, military, and people with small penises who need to compensate.

[Universal Mind]

Did you even look at the sonic weapon or the ray gun link? They're non-lethal, but equally effective. Deterrents are responsible, killing people is not. If they are not lethal, they are not as effective. The pirates need to be scared to death of robbing ships. They need to be in major fear for their lives. Even if you don't agree with that, you should not try to stand in the way of those who do. People should be allowed to choose guns for protection of they want to. Guns create an arms race and that will always escalate out of control. Guns are for lowlifes, military, and people with small penises who need to compensate. Those poor as shit Somali pirates can only go so far, and even if they get a hold of missiles, they will still be scared of people who can kill them. You are at it with your prejudiced generalizations again. Guns have and do save lives in tons of cases. People should have the right to use them for protection if they choose. People who know how to use them are safer with them than without them. Your assumption that they are low lives is way too generalized. Lots of sophisticated people have guns for protection, and it is understandable.

[ninja9578]

If they are not lethal, they are not as effective. The pirates need to be scared to death of robbing ships. They need to be in major fear for their lives. Even if you don't agree with that, you should not try to stand in the way of those who do. People should be allowed to choose guns for protection of they want to. I've seen those ray guns first hand, they work just as well. I didn't get to get hit with it myself, but one of the guys who did told me it was like putting his body in an oven. Those poor as shit Somali pirates can only go so far, and even if they get a hold of missiles, they will still be scared of people who can kill them. Poor? Pirates rob people and have plenty of money. You can get almost anything on the black market. You are at it with your prejudiced generalizations again. Guns have and do save lives in tons of cases. People should have the right to use them for protection if they choose. People who know how to use them are safer with them than without them. Your assumption that they are low lives is way too generalized. Lots of sophisticated people have guns for protection, and it is understandable. A gun for fox hunting isn't the same as having a machine gun. A thug will not break into a place with a home security system, a Brinks home security system costs like $100 dollars, even poor rednecks can afford them. A dog is an even better security system.Guns are for people who think having guns makes them cool or measure themselves an others by how much firepower they can have; lowlifes. They think it makes them cool, why else would they put them on display? While in the south I saw plenty of pickup trucks with gun racks. What's the point of that? It was not hunting season, they can't reach outside their truck, grab the gun, load it, and fire it before a carjacker pulls them out of it. It's there just to show that they have it to other lowlifes/rednecks, whatever you want to call them.

[Invader]

I have a different suggestion, after having given this more thought. The golden age of piracy (1650-1725, roughly) ended because of increased military presence along the coasts and shipping lanes. Merchant vessels already ran armed, but pirates always made a habit of out-arming their targets, and often times traveled in groups for assured success. If we do indeed arm civilian crews as a response to the modern pirate threat, we may see history repeat itself in the sense that the pirates will just always opt for overwhelming their victims with more firepower. If, however, you leave guns to the military (people who's job it is to use them) and increase naval influence, the pirate threat should follow the same pattern it did for the Americas and for Europe. There's a reason pirates are hard to come by nowadays: The threat of being caught by modern superior military technology is far too great for whatever potential rewards they had in mind.

[Universal Mind]

I've seen those ray guns first hand, they work just as well. I didn't get to get hit with it myself, but one of the guys who did told me it was like putting his body in an oven. But it is not a DEATH threat. Huge difference. Poor? Pirates rob people and have plenty of money. You can get almost anything on the black market. Obviously their leaders are rich, but I don't think they are ready to buy the top weapons. The underlings wear rags. A gun for fox hunting isn't the same as having a machine gun. A thug will not break into a place with a home security system, a Brinks home security system costs like $100 dollars, even poor rednecks can afford them. A dog is an even better security system.Guns are for people who think having guns makes them cool or measure themselves an others by how much firepower they can have; lowlifes. They think it makes them cool, why else would they put them on display? While in the south I saw plenty of pickup trucks with gun racks. What's the point of that? It was not hunting season, they can't reach outside their truck, grab the gun, load it, and fire it before a carjacker pulls them out of it. It's there just to show that they have it to other lowlifes/rednecks, whatever you want to call them. Security systems don't always stop desperate crackheads and such who want to gun it in and out. Those people will sell their legs for $20 and even go to prison as long as they can get that one more hit of crack. Also, some criminals know how to dismantle security systems. I highly recommend security systems, but I also highly value the right to gun protection. Whether you have come across it yourself or not, a lot of people do honestly believe that they are safer with a gun, so your generalization is way off. You are stereotyping on a major level. Recognize diversity. There is even diversity within rednecks. You can't paint such big populations with a broad brush. Also, zillions of non-rednecks have guns for protection. I have a different suggestion, after having given this more thought. The golden age of piracy (1650-1725, roughly) ended because of increased military presence along the coasts and shipping lanes. Merchant vessels already ran armed, but pirates always made a habit of out-arming their targets, and often times traveled in groups for assured success. If we do indeed arm civilian crews as a response to the modern pirate threat, we may see history repeat itself in the sense that the pirates will just always opt for overwhelming their victims with more firepower. If, however, you leave guns to the military (people who's job it is to use them) and increase naval influence, the pirate threat should follow the same pattern it did for the Americas and for Europe. There's a reason pirates are hard to come by nowadays: The threat of being caught by modern superior military technology is far too great for whatever potential rewards they had in mind. These pirates are kidnappers. They would rather not kill their victims. I think a few more shootouts will take away the mass pirate fad that exists in Somalia now. As it is, the game is just way too easy for the pirates. But I do agree with majorly increasing military involvement. Even if guns would be a disaster for most of the merchants who have them, I don't think it is fair that they are not even allowed to make the decision for themselves.

[ninja9578]

But it is not a DEATH threat. Huge difference. You can not stand in front of a raygun, if someone aims one at you, you will not be able to take it, I promise you that. Obviously their leaders are rich, but I don't think they are ready to buy the top weapons. The underlings wear rags. So do Al Quida, but they have plenty of money for guns. Security systems don't always stop desperate crackheads and such who want to gun it in and out. Those people will sell their legs for $20 and even go to prison as long as they can get that one more hit of crack. Also, some criminals know how to dismantle security systems. I highly recommend security systems, but I also highly value the right to gun protection. If you have crackheads MOVE. What are you an idiot? Get the fuck out of there and go to a safer area without crackheads, guns, and crime. Whether you have come across it yourself or not, a lot of people do honestly believe that they are safer with a gun, so your generalization is way off. You are stereotyping on a major level. Recognize diversity. There is even diversity within rednecks. You can't paint such big populations with a broad brush. Also, zillions of non-rednecks have guns for protection. I don't know a single person who has a gun for protection that isn't a redneck. I know there is diversity of rednecks, there are the kind that hate non-christians,t he kind that hates christians that arent the same time as them, the kind that hate jews, the kind that hate blacks, the kind that hate mexicans, the kind that hate Puerto ricans, but call them mexicans, the kind that hate people who make more than $15000, (they call them yuppies), the kind that hate gays, the kind that hate muslims, the kind that hate arabs, the kind that hate the environment, the kind that hate people with a high school diploma... All of whom love trucks, nascar, and guns. They don't collect guns for protection, they collect guns because they thin it's a sign of how manly they are. Remember, I'm not against guns completely, I certainly don't want my area overrun with deer, in order for a carnivore to live, something has to die, it's turning them against people that are barbaric, and an assault rifle is not a gun for hunting or protection, it's for assault. A 9mm is a self protection weapon.

[Universal Mind]

You can not stand in front of a raygun, if someone aims one at you, you will not be able to take it, I promise you that. Where is the death threat? So do Al Quida, but they have plenty of money for guns. But they look to governments for the superweapons. If you have crackheads MOVE. What are you an idiot? Get the fuck out of there and go to a safer area without crackheads, guns, and crime. Crackheads are everywhere. I live in the suburbs, but I still like knowing I can blow somebody's brains out if they come into my house for the wrong reasons. My first reaction will be to shoot the wall and scare them out. If that doesn't do the trick and they come to my room, that's it for them. Even if you don't like that plan, I do, and I am entitled to it. I don't know a single person who has a gun for protection that isn't a redneck. Then you need to get out and see the world more. I know there is diversity of rednecks, there are the kind that hate non-christians,t he kind that hates christians that arent the same time as them, the kind that hate jews, the kind that hate blacks, the kind that hate mexicans, the kind that hate Puerto ricans, but call them mexicans, the kind that hate people who make more than $15000, (they call them yuppies), the kind that hate gays, the kind that hate muslims, the kind that hate arabs, the kind that hate the environment, the kind that hate people with a high school diploma... All of whom love trucks, nascar, and guns. And the type that smoke pot and listen to Pink Floyd, and the type that are atheists, and the type that give to charity, and the type that vote for Democrats, and the type that would die to save your life, and the type that watch psychedelic movies and listen to space music, and the type that love their families, and the type that have immeasurable IQ's, and the type that understand diversity and don't hatefully stereotype, etc. They don't collect guns for protection, they collect guns because they thin it's a sign of how manly they are. GENERALIZATION... which is a fallacy of logic.

[Michael]

They need to enforce the gun laws over there instead of legalizing guns. Also, they need to legalize guns for the people on the ships.

[ninja9578]

Where is the death threat? They can't get close enough to use their own guns or board the ship. A ray gun is effective to a quarter mile, a sonic weapon can be effective to a half a mile. That's much further than a gun in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to use it. But they look to governments for the superweapons. What government would that be? The taliban is long since dispatched, yet they are as powerful now as they were in 2001. Crackheads are everywhere. I live in the suburbs, but I still like knowing I can blow somebody's brains out if they come into my house for the wrong reasons. My first reaction will be to shoot the wall and scare them out. If that doesn't do the trick and they come to my room, that's it for them. Even if you don't like that plan, I do, and I am entitled to it. Your state needs some more progressive laws and socialized help programs. Up here we have very little problem with drugs and guns. There are 13 million people in New York, 9 million in NYC and I've never seen a crackhead. If you have problems with addict,it's your local government's fault, tell them to get a better police force and help for the addicts. Then you need to get out and see the world more. I'm sure I've seen more of the world than you. I'll bet you're one of those idiots that states very loudly that the US is the greatest country on earth, but have never been to another country. And the type that smoke pot and listen to Pink Floyd, and the type that are atheists, and the type that give to charity, and the type that vote for Democrats, and the type that would die to save your life, and the type that watch psychedelic movies and listen to space music, and the type that love their families, and the type that have immeasurable IQ's, and the type that understand diversity and don't hatefully stereotype, etc. We're not talking about minorities here.