"Absolutely torture."

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

1. Is that what is happening to our special forces when they get waterboarded?

2. If so, what percentage of them are permanently harmed by it?

3. Did that happen to the three terrorist leaders the U.S. has waterboarded?

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In most cases they stopped water boarding as a part of training to resist torture, because it would break the soldier. As for prisoners of war, a ton of them have had physiological problems due to torture used against them. Water boarding being one of them.

Its hard to know what percentage of people who have been water boarded suffer permanent harm, as its illegal and always done in secret. Its against the US constitution, the Genevra convention, and against the law by the UN.

However the technique has been around for a very long time, and people know what happens. This isn't theoretical , we know it. The reason people argue for it uses however, is it doesn't leave outwards signs that the person has been tortured. You can't see the damage done to the lungs just by looking at the person and you can deny the physiological stuff. Where is the proof? That is why people want to use it, as compared to things that live visible scars and stuff.

I was asking only about waterboarding performed on U.S. special forces (before asking about the three terrorist leaders) since that is waterboarding done the right way, which the U.S. admits to using on three terrorist leaders. I am not asking about waterboarding done the wrong way. The waterboarding used on special forces was meant to teach soldiers how not to break, so they got past the point where most people break. How screwed up are THEY as a result? Did THEY suffer lung damage or brain suffocation? Do THEY have resulting psychological issues? What about the three terrorist leaders the U.S. has waterboarded?

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Originally Posted by [SomeGuy]

It is not torture. You know they aren't drowning you. You know they would never let you die.

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that is the obvious difference between attempted murder and torture. you should look this stuff up before making any serious assertions.

What? Attempted murder is when I shoot you and run, but you don't die. That post makes no sense.

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Originally Posted by [SomeGuy]

What? Attempted murder is when I shoot you and run, but you don't die. That post makes no sense.

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yes, that's attempted murder. torture is when i shoot you and you don't die, and then i get to shoot you again, and again. and you won't die, cause i want to shoot you again.

e; and no, you would not 'know that they aren't trying to kill you'. you would think that you are dying. for sure. don't pour water on your face and try to disprove that. it's an effective method (as they claim), or they wouldnt be using it.

It doesn't matter if they are using it or not. The point of the debate is: Is waterboading torture or not?

And why not pour water on my face? Why not put my head, face up in the sink and turn the faucet on? That's what they are doing pretty much. I don't feel like I'm going to die, I don't feel disturbed or crazed, I'm not getting brain damage. I'm getting water on my face.

Of course you were. Because you don't want to deal with the thousands of other cases. Obviously anything done to our own people are the most mild as we dont want to permanently harm them. Yet even the mild version where the person knows they are not in danger, they still have serve reactions to it and break down.

As for the terrorists leaders, how do I know if they have psychological issues? If they cry themselves to sleep every night, and piss their pants whenever they go near water, how on earth would I know? You think they would actually reveal that?

Though even if you think water boarding is a mild inconvenience despite the fact that everyone who has gone through and nearly all government organizes in the world consider it torture, why would you use it? Why use a 500 year old torture technique when the modern methods of interrogation are far superior?

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Originally Posted by [SomeGuy]

I don't feel like I'm going to die, I don't feel disturbed or crazed, I'm not getting brain damage. I'm getting water on my face.

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we should inform the authorities right away! SomeGuy has shown us how this water thing will never work! how else can we break these terrorists and avoid the next attack!!!!

on a side note, it should be mentioned that a long time ago the japanese waterboarded our soldiers. why you ask? to try and prevent an attack on their homeland. and then there was Hiroshima.

we declared that torture, and then executed those japanesse for doing so.

be sure to read established arguments before attempting your own counter-argument. just a piece of my mind.

Hiroshima wasn't because of "torture" on our soldiers....Arbitrary point.

Oh, and I never said waterboarding is a good way to get information, or that we should still do it. Don't assume. I think it's a shitty idea. However, it's not torture. It's just stupid.

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Originally Posted by Alric

Of course you were. Because you don't want to deal with the thousands of other cases. Obviously anything done to our own people are the most mild as we dont want to permanently harm them. Yet even the mild version where the person knows they are not in danger, they still have serve reactions to it and break down.

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The thousands of other cases? Tell me about thousands of other cases in which the United States has performed it. You can't... We don't know of any. Again, I am against using waterboarding the wrong way. Also again, the special forces train to extend their breaking points, so they go past the average breaking points.

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Originally Posted by Alric

As for the terrorists leaders, how do I know if they have psychological issues? If they cry themselves to sleep every night, and piss their pants whenever they go near water, how on earth would I know? You think they would actually reveal that?

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In other words, you don't know of it happening.

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Originally Posted by Alric

Though even if you think water boarding is a mild inconvenience despite the fact that everyone who has gone through and nearly all government organizes in the world consider it torture, why would you use it? Why use a 500 year old torture technique when the modern methods of interrogation are far superior?

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I already said it is a nightmare and an assault. I just don't think it passes the boundary of "torture".

You are again talking about waterboarding done the wrong way. Please get off that. I don't support it. This is getting old.


While we are talking about this, here is a link for you to consider. It lists foiled terrorist attacks and terrorist arrests since 9/11. You can read about the stopped attempts to bomb a subway by Madison Square Garden in New York, to blow up 10 passenger airplanes in England, to light up a fuel line at the JFK Airport in New York and a nearby neighborhood, to blow up the Brooklyn Bridge, and others. Pay special attention to the information that was gotten out of Khallid Sheik Muhammed, especially if you love Bill Clinton. Guess how they got the information out of him.

http://www.heritage.org/research/Hom...nse/bg2085.cfm

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Instead of making empty jackass comments like that, try countering the points I have been making. I have made very specific points and used very specific analogies. All you have done is dodge those, make points about what waterboarding can do when performed in the worst possible ways, and appealed to the supposed authority of weasel snakes in the U.N. If you are going to appeal to U.N. supposed authority, you might as well be telling me what Hamas thinks. I don't care. Counter my points.

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Give me a fucking break, I have not dodged your freaking points. I have not even dignified answering your points other what wrote before.

HAVE I APPEALED TO SUPPOSED AUTOURITY?!

[SomeGuy] Wrote "According to the UN Convention Against Torture, torture is:......................."

He used UN AS AN AUTHORITY!!! To show that how contradicting it is to quote a UN Convention when that F******* same convention states that WATERBOARDING IS TORTURE!!

"Counter my points" Hah! I mean what I wrote earlier, THERE IS NO POINT DISCUSSION WITH BIASED AND EMOTIONAL IMPACTED INDIVIDUALS, JUST LIKE THERE IS NO POINT DISCUSSING WITH HAMAS OR BRAINWASHED TERROISTS!

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Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia

Give me a fucking break, I have not dodged your freaking points. I have not even dignified answering your points other what wrote before.

HAVE I APPEALED TO SUPPOSED AUTOURITY?!

[SomeGuy] Wrote "According to the UN Convention Against Torture, torture is:......................."

He used UN AS AN AUTHORITY!!! To show that how contradicting it is to quote a UN Convention when that F******* same convention states that WATERBOARDING IS TORTURE!!

"Counter my points" Hah! I mean what I wrote earlier, THERE IS NO POINT DISCUSSION WITH BIASED AND EMOTIONAL IMPACTED INDIVIDUALS, JUST LIKE THERE IS NO POINT DISCUSSING WITH HAMAS OR BRAINWASHED TERROISTS!

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Look who really is getting emotional. Also, nice excuses for dodging. You can sit out now.

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Originally Posted by [SomeGuy]

Hiroshima wasn't because of "torture" on our soldiers....Arbitrary point.

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it's like a twister! no, Hiroshima wasn't 'because of torture' on our soldiers (whatever that means). we just killed those people who used waterboarding to try and prevent it, because we thought it was torture. that's not an arbitrary point (unless you fail to see the point).

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Originally Posted by '[SomeGuy

However, it's not torture. It's just stupid.

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I already said it is a nightmare and an assault. I just don't think it passes the boundary of "torture".

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universal mind

i'm all ears to your definition of torture, since i think your arguments are very flawed.

The UN is stupid. Nice idea, but what do they do? Complain about Korea and their missiles? Please,we have more important things to do.

I quoted that because Wikipedia quoted them as an official definition of torture. I simply used the definition they provided. Don't put words in my mouth saying I quoted that as an authority. And besides, that alone says that the UN is a board of hypocrites. If they define torture as something that waterboarding is not, then call waterboarding torture, then they obviously need to remember what they said before.

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THERE IS NO POINT DISCUSSION WITH BIASED AND EMOTIONAL[y] IMPACTED INDIVIDUALS, JUST LIKE THERE IS NO POINT DISCUSSING WITH HAMAS OR BRAINWASHED TERROISTS!

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Maybe you should press that caps lock button once more.

We are not "BIASED AND EMOTIONAL[y] IMPACTED INDIVIDUALS". We are simply individuals with views that differ from yours.

That's not thousands of cases of the US doing it, that's the thousands of cases of it having been done on people. We generally do not know how many people the US has done it on, as in most cases its done in secret.

Though we already have many links in this thread that goes to experts and people who have gone through it, and they all talked about what happens to people during the processes. How come you keep ignoring all the information that was already provided? Heck you could just goggle it and it will explain what happens during water boarding.

Though for some reason you think everyone in the world is lying about the physiological impact it has on people. Where is your bases for this? I would like to see the report of the details concerning their health after the torture. Since you seem to claim it is a fact that they are not suffer, I am sure you can provide proof of it.

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Originally Posted by sleepingdog

it's like a twister! no, Hiroshima wasn't 'because of torture' on our soldiers (whatever that means). we just killed those people who used waterboarding to try and prevent it, because we thought it was torture. that's not an arbitrary point (unless you fail to see the point).

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Originally Posted by sleepingdog

we should inform the authorities right away! SomeGuy has shown us how this water thing will never work! how else can we break these terrorists and avoid the next attack!!!!

on a side note, it should be mentioned that a long time ago the japanese waterboarded our soldiers. why you ask? to try and prevent an attack on their homeland. and then there was Hiroshima.

we declared that torture, and then executed those japanesse for doing so.

be sure to read established arguments before attempting your own counter-argument. just a piece of my mind.

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In bold are contradictions. We didn't execute anyone, and we didn't kill them because of "torture".

Also, I'd like a source or two saying that the Japanese waterboarded our troops.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Look who really is getting emotional. Also, nice excuses for dodging. You can sit out now.

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I just watched "X-Men Origins: Wolverine" 5 minutes ago, so I am excused.

http://host.trivialbeing.org/up/wolv...erinefirst.jpg

:takethatfoo:

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Originally Posted by [SomeGuy]

If they define torture as something that waterboarding is not,

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then you need to say why you think it is not.

and you can get that jap source on waterboarding yourself. it exists nice and folded. you can say it's a 'contradiction' but you'll just end up contradicting yourself once you discover that it's true (i can't wait!)

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Originally Posted by Alric

That's not thousands of cases of the US doing it, that's the thousands of cases of it having been done on people. We generally do not know how many people the US has done it on, as in most cases its done in secret.

Though we already have many links in this thread that goes to experts and people who have gone through it, and they all talked about what happens to people during the processes. How come you keep ignoring all the information that was already provided? Heck you could just goggle it and it will explain what happens during water boarding.

Though for some reason you think everyone in the world is lying about the physiological impact it has on people. Where is your bases for this? I would like to see the report of the details concerning their health after the torture. Since you seem to claim it is a fact that they are not suffer, I am sure you can provide proof of it.

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Sooner or later this very simple point is going to sink in... I am only talking about waterboarding done the right way. That is why I am putting out a major effort to get you to focus on U.S. special forces and three terrorist leaders, the only people the U.S. has ever used waterboarding on as far as we know. I am not talking about the Viet Kong or the Soviets or such. They all out drowned people for all we know. Stop deviating.

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Originally Posted by [SomeGuy]

It doesn't matter if they are using it or not. The point of the debate is: Is waterboading torture or not?

And why not pour water on my face? Why not put my head, face up in the sink and turn the faucet on? That's what they are doing pretty much. I don't feel like I'm going to die, I don't feel disturbed or crazed, I'm not getting brain damage. I'm getting water on my face.

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Originally Posted by [SomeGuy]

It is not torture. You know they aren't drowning you. You know they would never let you die.

I don't see how slight physical discomfort and a little bit of water up the nose qualifies as "severe pain and suffering", as the official description of torture says it should be.

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Originally Posted by [SomeGuy]

In contrast to submerging the head face-forward in water, waterboarding precipitates an almost immediate gag reflex.

Because of water up the nose? I don't gag when that happens.

The technique does not inevitably cause lasting physical damage. It can cause extreme pain, dry drowning, damage to lungs, brain damage from oxygen deprivation, other physical injuries including broken bones due to struggling against restraints, lasting psychological damage or, if uninterrupted, death.

Extreme pain...water up the nose BURNS. That's all. Damage to lungs...breathing cigarette smoke causes that, much worse than Waterboarding. Is being around a smoker considered torture? I'm sure they don't do it long enough to cause brain damage. And broken bones against restraints? That's the prisoner's fault. And besides, do you realize how hard you would have to fight the restraints to break bones? Psychological damage? How does that disturb your mind enough to cause psychological damage? They must have really weak mids if it does cause that. And by the way, it is interrupted. So, they are careful with it. If uninterrupted, eating can cause death, swimming can cause death, running, cooking, typing, showering, walking, breathing into a bag, breathing helium, etc.

Adverse physical consequences can start manifesting months after the event; psychological effects can last for years.

How do they manifest after months? That makes no sense. It doesn't take months for a bone to break or for brain damage to occur.

As for the psychological effects, it's not like they got raped. They don't sit in corners staring straight ahead with no words because they got water in the face.

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Originally Posted by [SomeGuy]

Or we can start over here.

Waterboarding is not torture. Three reasons why it's not:
- Everybody gets water up their nose in the pool. It's the same.
- One guy got waterboarded for three months. If it really was torture, wouldn't he have said something to make it stop earlier?
- Torture includes stuff like stretching people until they rip, shooting their limbs, ripping open their jaw, isolation chambers, stoning to death, beatings, getting set on fire, starving, cutting a person whilst he/she is awake, and so on. All of those include physical harm, besides an isolation chamber. However, an isolation chamber can cause permanent mental damage. Does waterboarding cause any physical harm or permanent mental damage? Not really. You get scared a little.

Now, I never said it was a good way to get information out of people. I'm sure it gets annoying after a while, and you give false information just to make it stop after a while, ie. Three-months-guy. There are better ways, but this is not torture.

Proof: I just poured water up my nose, over a sink, and a full glass. My nose burns a little, and sure I was a little scared to do it, but I don't think I just tortured myself.

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Originally Posted by [SomeGuy]

O', what you have described there is injury. I never said that a papercut isn't an injury, but injury != torture. What you have just said implies that injury is torture. Now, I wouldn't like to get waterboarded, and I wouldn't like to get papercuts daily, but is that really qualified to be torture?

If my friend threw something at me and it hit my arm, resulting in a bruise, then that is not torture. However, it is injury.

It is true that current views on torture express ideas of extreme humiliation or extreme pain. That is torture. Small amounts of injury are not torture.

According to the UN Convention Against Torture, torture is:
" ...any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions.
—UN Convention Against Torture

Notice in the beginning: "...severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person..."

Is a bit of water going up the nose "severe...suffering"?

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Originally Posted by [SomeGuy]

I have come close to drowning. Was it scary? Yes.

But: Was my whole head underwater, upside-down? Yes. In waterboarding, you are put on a board, belly up. They dump a bucket of water on your face. That's not pushing somebody's head underwater for extended periods of time.

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Originally Posted by [SomeGuy]

It's not a constant flow, and it's not pumped into you. It's not an extended period of time. It also doesn't cause physical harm. The most it will cause is annoyance and a little bit of fear.

Getting your head pushed into a pool of water for extended periods of time, let up for a few gasps, and pushed again, is torture. That wil case pain in the lungs, serious fear, and so on.

There is a huge difference there. I think that the difference in severity is large enough to accuse one as an act of torture, and the other not.

Once again, your final point is the same as the dunking. Pigglywiggly-bagging, the way you described it, is constant. Essentially, it's the same as dunking, without water.

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Originally Posted by [SomeGuy]

And the guy was waterboarded for THREE MONTHS before he said anything. If it really scared him/hurt him, he would have said something the first time. Besides, what he gave us was probably false info anyway. I never said waterboarding was an accurate way to get information, but it is not torture.

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then you need to say why you think it is not.

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Complete.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I am only talking about waterboarding done the right way.

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i'm still waiting on your definition of torture. but if it stands (as the consensus is, and has been for a long time) then you are arguing for the 'right way' to torture. that's a tough one, good luck.

on another side note. the better question is; do we accept a world were torture is legal, prevalent, and used as an accepted way to interrogate your enemies?

people have already decided this. but hey, let's do it again! just please remember that we (the USA!) are the only ones willing and able to make these rules. if we change them, the rest of the world will change too.

so keep arguing for the 'right way' to torture and you'll see a whole bunch of other people doing it too. that'd be fun.

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That's not pushing somebody's head underwater for extended periods of time.

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[SomeGuy]

it's a simulation. and you wouldn't know the difference, otherwise it would not be effective.

What, are these people retarted???? How do you not know the difference if someone is pushing your head underwater, or if they spray water on your face? How do you think you're dying when all that happens is a bucket of water slowly gets poured on your face? And if they have been doing it for three months, you know that they aren't tryin gto kill you, so duh.

Of course you know the difference.

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Originally Posted by '[SomeGuy

Of course you know the difference.

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I guess it isn't torture then SomeGuy, if it isn't a way to extract information out of people, which makes it useless, and seeing no reason to do it (besides being sadistic) would amount back to torture.

heh. im jk. yea, you would NOT know the difference. remember that time when you almost drowned? it's like that, exactly like that. only they push you farther than you have ever been, because they know just how far they can go before they kill you (since they don't want to kill you).

im done with you and this now. you can all go back to your conjectures without me or reality.

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Originally Posted by sleepingdog

I guess it isn't torture then SomeGuy, if it isn't a way to extract information out of people, which makes it useless, and seeing no reason to do it (besides being sadistic) would amount back to torture.

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Torture has a purpose. There is a reason people torture other people. The last sentence makes no sense. Just because it's useless doesn't mean it's torture.