Copenhagen Summit and US Senate Climate Legislation

Both far too disappointing for any real change to happen in the time it needs to happen to protect the environment from the worst collapse scenarios. Maybe we're too late to begin with, and most people are still blissfully ignorant of the plain truth.

http://gulfnews.com/business/opinion...ilure-1.557260

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8398510.stm

http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...812836,00.html


I'm starting to lose hope entirely in our nation and the world's ability to wise up and change, which raises the question of will I even live out my natural lifetime? Or at least a happy, normal lifetime?

I take it you are not one of the people who think global man made climate change is a fruad?

Quote:

---

I'm starting to lose hope entirely in our nation and the world's ability to wise up and change, which raises the question of will I even live out my natural lifetime? Or at least a happy, normal lifetime?

---

Why are you expecting a premature death? Your natural lifetime is about 30 years. Only in the industrial age has it lengthened.

There are much more pressing matters than the anthropic global warming hypothesis and most people including those in government are completely pig ignorant of them because of the inflated press coverage of global warming.

Most of them are linked to sustainability. The Earth is probably overpopulated as it is. In particular oil will become scarce very soon which will cause a lot of economic turmoil, and possibly a lot of warfare and social upheaval. Food and water and energy could all become scarce.

Very few governments are actually doing anything about this. The only ones which are are those which have very good political systems where the self interest of politicians doesn't have much sway, such as Switzerland and Norway which are quickly achieving oil free economies.

The UK and US are both pretty terrible in this respect. In the UK less than 1% of our energy is generated by renewables which really is a travesty (yet still our politicians have the hubris to lecture other poorer countries about global warming...). It'll be a pretty bad time when the shit finally hits the fan and we have to bend to the whims of Russia and the Middle East.

yep - i believe many of the participants of the summit arrived in limousines! how appropriate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alric

I take it you are not one of the people who think global man made climate change is a fruad?

---

And I take it that you have the Fox News perspective that it is a fraud.

Facts from the EPA:

The decade ending next week was the hottest decade on record with 8 of the hottest 10 years having occurred since 2000.

2009 will end up as one of the 5 hottest years on record and scientists predict that, with a moderate El Nino, 2010 will break the record.

There is now more carbon dioxide in the earth's atmosphere than anytime in at least the last 2.1 million years. Yet we continue to emit more than 8 billion tons of CO2 per year from the burning of fossil fuels and global emissions are increasing.

For the third year in a row, the summer Arctic sea ice melt was well above normal, posing a mortal threat to Arctic wildlife like polar bears.

In Alaska, only 42% of polar bear cubs now survive their first year, down from 65% 15 years ago.

By the end of the century, with business-as-usual emissions, it may no longer be possible to produce some of the main tree crops currently grown in California and U.S. production of corn, soybeans and cotton could decrease as much as 82%.

Saying that man made climate change IS real is a problem for big oil companies, other major polluters and lobbyists, which is why naturally these people are trying to weaken these basic scientific findings.

Where's your evidence?

Quote:

---

Where's your evidence?

---

Where's yours? You've not given any evidence for the AGW hypothesis. Just a random bunch of scientifically irrelevant facts.

In the UK this year's summer was very mild and this winter is causing havoc because it's colder than it's been for 20 years. The MET office predicted it was going to be scorching. Another epic fail from them in trying to make long term climate predictions.

There are now more estate agents on the planet then there have been for the past 5 billion years and yet we keep training more at an unprecedented rate.

The south pole is growing.

Polar bear populations always vary. There's even a biological law which says that populations always vary.

Oil companies have nothing to do with science.

As far as I can tell the only evidence for AGW are the computer models, and if you look at the email leaks, you'll see that they're a farce.

But like I say, I don't even care that much. We urgently need to reduce oil consumption and even when threatened with the end of the world politicans can't gain any inertia so there's really no fucking hope at all.

Tell me more on this fraud, please.

Talking about 'fraud' is one of the most disgusting misdirections I have ever witnessed. Don't you see it rotates around the term 'global warming' and eventually actually makes you say :

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xei

You've not given any evidence for the AGW hypothesis. Just a random bunch of scientifically irrelevant facts.

---

on the biggest problems of our planet.

It's not about the 'global warming' as a consequence. It's about the constant environmental awareness increase, as the biggest threat to polluter lobbies. Of course they're putting out a fraud story.

But, OK, I would like to understand, who benefits on this global warming fraud? Maybe I missed on something important.

Quote:

---

Polar bear populations always vary. There's even a biological law which says that populations always vary.

---

Yeah, biological laws and fur market. Humans rock.

All I know is, it is December 25th, and 20ºC (68ºF) here in Croatia, and it should be snowing. Pretty much everyone is feeling sick.

Just give it a few years. The global cooling scare will make its way back yet again. The extreme of the temperature scare has switched like seven times since the 1800's. At this point, I am not worried that the sky is falling. "Wolf" has been cried way too many times.

http://www.businessandmedia.org/spec...fireandice.asp

I was a child in the 1970's, and the environmental activism fad of the era was this...



http://www.infowars.com/cooling-tren...eory-in-doubt/

Go ahead and call bullshit on Al Gore, the grand wizard of the global warming fad, because he is quite full of it. The temperature of the core of Earth is is in the low thousands.

http://www.ehow.com/about_4660925_te...ter-earth.html

Now here's Al Whore with his true ignorance...



The godfather of global warming obviously isn't such an expert on Earth temperature. By the way, global warming is happening on Mars.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...s-warming.html

:roll:

Quote:

---

on the biggest problems of our planet.

It's not about the 'global warming' as a consequence. It's about the constant environmental awareness increase, as the biggest threat to polluter lobbies. Of course they're putting out a fraud story.

But, OK, I would like to understand, who benefits on this global warming fraud? Maybe I missed on something important.

---

I don't have any idea what you're talking about. You're saying you're opposed to rational scientific thought..?

I don't want to go into conspiracies because like I say there are interests on both sides of the arguments and it detracts from the science, but since you're asking, those who benefit include all of the people employed to do global warming research (their jobs wouldn't exist and a lot of them would have useless degrees if AGW turned out to be baseless) and politicians who see taxation opportunities.

Quote:

---

Go ahead and call bullshit on Al Gore, the grand wizard of the global warming fad, because he is quite full of it. The temperature of the core of Earth is is in the low thousands.

---

To be honest Al Gore isn't a scientist so we shouldn't really care what he thinks. Outside of America he's still obscure but GW is still well in the spotlight due to extensive media coverage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xei

I don't have any idea what you're talking about. You're saying you're opposed to rational scientific thought..?

---

I'm saying, the problems DeeryTheDeer mentioned are real, and people are starting to put them aside and thinking about whether it is a global warming, colding, or a fraud... Misdirection! It's a global shit here and now, and those dudes in Copenhagen should have done something about it, instead of being oil lobbysts' bitches as usual.

Let me put it this way, you don't even have to be a scientist to figure out we are constantly poisoned, just go to China and take a breath.

What I think is sad is that we need to tell the world that our use of petrol may
cause serious long term environmental damage in order to get them to use
something cleaner. I don't know if anyone has realized this, but a lot of the
byproducts of burning petrol are toxic to us. It browns the horizon in the cities
(a daily sight for me) and makes the air smell wrong. The fact that it's not
healthy should be reason enough to divert our efforts into developing new fuel
sources, especially considering that our need for fuel will continue to grow as
our industry does worldwide.

Uh but I don't live in China.

And life expectancies have doubled in the industrial age. You're being paranoid.

What's 'global shit'? What are we supposed to do about 'global shit' if we don't know if it's 'cooling or warming'?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Invader

What I think is sad is that we need to tell the world that our use of petrol may
cause serious long term environmental damage in order to get them to use
something cleaner. I don't know if anyone has realized this, but a lot of the
byproducts of burning petrol are toxic to us. It browns the horizon in the cities
(a daily sight for me) and makes the air smell wrong. The fact that it's not
healthy should be reason enough to divert our efforts into developing new fuel
sources, especially considering that our need for fuel will continue to grow as
our industry does worldwide.

---

.

climate change or not, we're destroying the environment. who else could do that besides people?

all the debate is pretty much a waste. sorry, but i'd like to grow old and still see nature instead of an ever developing, suffocating network of roads, concrete, and so forth. i don't care if al gore is 'right' or not.

So you'd rather have no roads?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xei

So you'd rather have no roads?

---

I'd rather we didn't have roads, but rather used teleportation.

False Dilemma. Do not distort his meaning.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cygnus

ever developing, suffocating network of roads, concrete, and so forth.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cygnus

climate change or not, we're destroying the environment. who else could do that besides people?

---

The elements and forces of nature that created us have that power.

Quote:

---

False Dilemma. Do not distort his meaning.

---

Well if that was his meaning then he was implying that some roads is ok but more roads is not.

Please use logic.

I merely pointed out the part of the sentence you missed. Had I spelled it out
for you I'd have felt that I was insulting your intelligence.

I didn't miss out anything. What I asked was the logical consequence, as I had to spell out to you...

. . .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xei

I didn't miss out anything.

---

You derived a more extreme meaning of what Cygnus was saying.
Cygnus says, "No ever developing network of roads, etc"
Your assumption, "He wants no roads"

Your assumption here is the logical consequence.

If you really did not miss out of anything and were completely aware of the
words "ever developing" in Cygnus's statement, then what you imply by your
conclusion is that a person can either want roads or not want roads at all.
Hence false dilemma. Do you understand my point of view now?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

The elements and forces of nature that created us have that power.

---

yes, there are natural disasters. land is split by tectonic shifts, mountains are raised and worn down. climate change occurs naturally. the continents have come together as one and split up again many times.

to equate anthropogenic destruction of nature with any of these things is completely missing the point. you could also say that while a person can adjust the thermostat in their house, the forces of nature bring about a new season.

our species has a long history of causing species extinctions and degrading the environment in some way, but the ways in which we now relate to our world are vastly different from how they were only a couple centuries ago.

so when you combine a utilitarian, materialistic worldview with capitalism, technology and population growth, you have something that degrades not only the environment but the human experience at a very fundamental level.

of course you can say, "would you rather not have technology, an increased life expectancy, or roads?"

to have a balanced application of our potential as a species might mean acknowledging the weight of an unsustainable way of life, the benefits of man-made elements, and the costs to our physical, mental, emotional and spiritual health.

we are far from anything balanced.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cygnus

our species has a long history of causing species extinctions and degrading the environment in some way, but the ways in which we now relate to our world are vastly different from how they were only a couple centuries ago.

so when you combine a utilitarian, materialistic worldview with capitalism, technology and population growth, you have something that degrades not only the environment but the human experience at a very fundamental level.

---

What wonderful nonsense. Earth has experienced 5 mass extinctions effectively eliminating 97% of the species...how many of those were actually caused by humans? In fact how many of those even had mammals in them? The dodo bird dies and suddenly the human race is the cause of extinction? Really?

Concerning the fact that you don't find meaning in life due to your motif of drowning materialism does not a fortiori mean that others don't find meaning and have insightful, moving life experiences. In fact, I argue that such experiences are encouraged, easily realized, or are only existent because of the interests of capital intense labor. There are those who find meaning in labor but it is my belief that many find joy in libation. Libation is not possible under feudalism nor under primitive economies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

What wonderful nonsense. Earth has experienced 5 mass extinctions effectively eliminating 97% of the species...how many of those were actually caused by humans? In fact how many of those even had mammals in them? The dodo bird dies and suddenly the human race is the cause of extinction? Really?

---

did i say man was responsible for all extinction?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

Concerning the fact that you don't find meaning in life due to your motif of drowning materialism does not a fortiori mean that others don't find meaning and have insightful, moving life experiences. In fact, I argue that such experiences are encouraged, easily realized, or are only existent because of the interests of capital intense labor. There are those who find meaning in labor but it is my belief that many find joy in libation. Libation is not possible under feudalism nor under primitive economies.

---

a libation is a drink poured out as an offering to a deity. i take it that you deify some part of modernity, apparently it's economy and use of labor, or have esteem for people who do. i can't see any other way to interpret your version of this "wonderful nonsense."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cygnus

did i say man was responsible for all extinction?

---

You certainly gave the impression that man is the source for disharmony in the world.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cygnus

a libation is a drink poured out as an offering to a deity. i take it that you deify some part of modernity, apparently it's economy and use of labor, or have esteem for people who do. i can't see any other way to interpret your version of this "wonderful nonsense."

---

A libation could also mean a good that brings about relaxation or a jolly environment. Yes I like the modern. I find it strange though that you consider the modern 'wonderful nonsense' while you sit in front of a computer and make such asinine claims. It is time you merged theory with practice. Unplug the computer, go be free in the wild. I wish you well on your primitivist lifestyle.

you're bastardizing very reasonable posts. i wasn't being a dick to you, and i'm not now - that doesn't contribute anything.

and 'wonderful nonsense' was your phrase!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cygnus

and 'wonderful nonsense' was your phrase!

---

And did you not use it to explain my love of 'modernity'?

'i take it that you deify some part of modernity, apparently it's economy and use of labor, or have esteem for people who do. i can't see any other way to interpret your version of this "wonderful nonsense.'

Yes, you did.

yeah that's why i put it in quotation marks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cygnus

yeah that's why i put it in quotation marks.

---

But you still used it in a sentence. Could you perhaps move onto a productive criticism of what I wrote?

Well, how about the fact that most biologists think we are currently going through another major extinction event?

Given that there have been only 5 others as you say, it's a bit of a massive coincidence that this event should occur in the 10,000 years out of the 4,000,000,000 in the Earth's history that there has been human civilization.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xei

Well, how about the fact that most biologists think we are currently going through another major extinction event?

---

Hysteria. There have been less then 100 species which have gone extinct...in the last 500 years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xei

Given that there have been only 5 others as you say, it's a bit of a massive coincidence that this event should occur in the 10,000 years out of the 4,000,000,000 in the Earth's history that there has been human civilization.

---

What?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

Hysteria. There have been less then 100 species which have gone extinct...in the last 500 years.

---

What the fuck, 35 to 150 species goes extinct every day.

Look it up for yourself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia

What the fuck, 35 to 150 species goes extinct every day.

Look it up for yourself.

---

That would mean that 12775 to 54750 species die every year. That is impossible. Recheck your data.

Uh sorry, why is it impossible? The upper and lower bounds of extinct species in the last century are 20,000 and 2,000,000.

Read about the holocene extinction event. At the moment you're just making shit up which isn't very constructive.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xei

Uh sorry, why is it impossible? The upper and lower bounds of extinct species in the last century are 20,000 and 2,000,000.

Read about the holocene extinction event. At the moment you're just making shit up which isn't very constructive.

---

Really? I'm making things up? You are postulating that +10,000 species die EVERY YEAR! In ten years that is +100,000 species. Do you know how unrealistic that number is?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

That would mean that 12775 to 54750 species die every year. That is impossible. Recheck your data.

---

Eh, that is certainly not impossible.

See the basics here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction

The main cause of these extinctions are deforestation. Particularly species of insects are very vulnerable to this kind of interference.

About 875 species has gone extinct since 1500 that was DOCUMENTED, big difference..

How many of those are Vertebrates? Alot, how many Vertebrates exist per percentage of total? 3%

We have so far only identified 1.25 million animal species, 76 & of those are insects. We have only discovered a fraction of all animal species that exist currently.

Yes, 35 to 150 species do go extinct every day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia

About 875 species has gone extinct since 1500 that was DOCUMENTED, big difference..

Yes, 35 to 150 species do go extinct every day.

---

You defeat your own argument through irrationality.

35 to 150 species a day and yet only 875 species since 1500. That is obviously 500 years and given that you think that there are 35 to 150 a day then obviously you aren't working out the math.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alric

I take it you are not one of the people who think global man made climate change is a fruad?

---

global warming global warming global warming global warming, republicans versus democrats? fox versus cnn?

It's getting sickening!

listen people! the climate destruction IS NOT ABOUT GLOBAL WARMING. The reality is forests are disappearing at an alarming rate. The reality is the oceans are dying. We are over fishing throwing off the entire eco system of the ocean out of balance. Entire species that we love to eat, like tuna, might go extinct.

However, the real concern isn't that a single species will disappear. The real concern is how interconnected the entire ocean is. The ocean has no 'walls' or borders like we do here on land. Several species roam from sea to sea, affecting all other species. The loss of a single species creates a chain reaction that is more real and dangerous than anything we have seen in an isolated forest.

The danger is real.......the very basic life force of the ocean is dying. The primitive plant life of the ocean.

The primitive plant life of the ocean is dying because of several factors. Pollution for one, we have treated the ocean is our sewer. We owe our very existence to this primitive life. We owe our oxygen to them. And if they continue to die in this massive extinction. HUMANITY WILL JOIN THEM.

They produce the majority of our oxygen. Together with the destruction of forests, wild grasses, detoxing swamps, and the primitive plant life of the ocean - we will suffocate ourselves and go extinct with the dinosaurs.

This isn't a myth. This is real. This is happening right now.

Do you understand?

Do you or do you not?





If you don't, it's not that complicated. This is very simple science. The earth is a tiny little island. This meant that life, all life on the earth have to share the same resources. Life answered this dilemma by evolving a system of sharing resources.

The sharing of resources, the sharing of energy, is fundamental for survival for every species on the earth.

The sharing of resources for survival is evident in the intimate relationships between plants and animals. Plants give off oxygen. That is their 'waste' product. Animals breathe oxygen, which they need to survive. Animals give off carbon dioxide as their waste product. Plants need the waste product of animals, carbon dioxide, to photosynthesize. See the happy little circle??? Should all the animals of the earth magically disappear, then our plants too would die.

Do you get it? EVERY oxygen breathing animal is dependent on plant life, especially the primitive plant life of the ocean. And as well, plant life is also dependent on animals. The two evolved together and not independently.

Sharing, cooperation.

People need to pull their heads of our their asses and wake up. We are a part of the earth and we are a part of it's ecosystem, not separate from it. Everything we do effects everything else. This is much bigger than some climate change. Were talking about the fundamental balance of life here. Were talking about the extinction of humanity.










The change that needs to take place is our very fundamental beliefs. Right now people view saving the environment some sort of 'cause'. Like giving money to the homeless. The problem with this mentally that it is a 'cause', is that 'causes' are personal. So someone thinks we should give money to homeless, others think homeless are just ass lazy and need to get a bloody job already.

This mentality that saving the environment is a 'cause' is self evident in how we treat saving the environment. It's thought of as small little meager actions you do throughout the day...Like recycling a bottle. Or not taking a shower today :P, who knows.

Those trying to save the environment also tend to tell us "just do little things, even the little things count"

But it doesn't matter if everyone recycles. It doesn't matter if we do all of those little things, those little sacrifices. It doesn't change the fundamental belief that nature is separate from us. It doesn't change the fundamental belief that our profit, our capitalistic ways, our pleasure and leisure come before nature. It doesn't change the fundamental beliefs that we can OWN nature. That we can literally OWN a trees life. Literally OWN a river, a lake, a forest.............................

That we have the right to chop down a tree just because someone didn't want it in their yard. Or yet worse, that we have the right to copyright a seed, forcing farmers to buy the new seed every year instead of letting mother nature pollinate and create free seeds.

When you understand that the fundamental 'law of the jungle' is sharing and cooperating, then you understand that this idea of ownership is actually ridiculous and insane. Lakes, rivers, forests, even a single tree belongs to everyone and no one.

It's our entire belief system that needs to change.

When we change our relationship with nature, we also change our relationship with ourselves and each other. Virtually all problems plaguing humanity stem from our insane and unnatural fundamental beliefs.

juroara, you basically took the thoughts i was working with and expanded them nicely :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

A libation could also mean a good that brings about relaxation or a jolly environment. Yes I like the modern. I find it strange though that you consider the modern 'wonderful nonsense' while you sit in front of a computer and make such asinine claims. It is time you merged theory with practice. Unplug the computer, go be free in the wild. I wish you well on your primitivist lifestyle.

---

:roll:
you missed the whole point i was making.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cygnus

when you combine a utilitarian, materialistic worldview with capitalism, technology and population growth, you have something that degrades not only the environment but the human experience at a very fundamental level.

of course you can say, "would you rather not have technology, an increased life expectancy, or roads?"

to have a balanced application of our potential as a species might mean acknowledging the weight of an unsustainable way of life, the benefits of man-made elements, and the costs to our physical, mental, emotional and spiritual health.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

A libation could also mean a good that brings about relaxation or a jolly environment. Yes I like the modern. I find it strange though that you consider the modern 'wonderful nonsense' while you sit in front of a computer and make such asinine claims. It is time you merged theory with practice. Unplug the computer, go be free in the wild. I wish you well on your primitivist lifestyle.

---

the above is an example when you carry the FALSE belief that man and all that man does is fundamentally separate from nature

that to argue we need to be in tuned with nature must also mean we need to give up the joys that our technology has given. but this is a false notion created by a false belief

technology is not separate from nature either!!!

and while I know even though there are a lot of hippies out there that think the only way we can live in peace with nature is to live like wild and ignorant humans, this isn't true either

I'm reading a book now that uses the human body as an example of technology in nature. In fact, the author of the book actually believes that all of our great technology...............was actually first created by microscopic life millions of years ago.

I'll quote the book later, I gotta go to work soon :P

But the author gives simple examples how in history when ever we discovered a new form of technology - the inventors/scientists used the human body as a way to explain how this technology works!....You gotta start wonder...is there any technology that we have that hasn't been done on a microscopic level first????

I'll post examples of this technology later. But right now the important thing to understand is how the technology is used is vastly different than how we use our technology. It's the usage that's different

Cell biologists describe the trillions of cells in our body, as a cooperative community. It may seem insane to think of our body as a 'community', because communities are composed of 'individuals'. But in fact, everyone of your living cells is an individual, in that you can take this cell out of your body, and so long as it's given the nourishment it needs - it will live. It lives because it is only 'your body' when it is a part of the 'community'.

Cell biologists are discovering how trillions of cells, that are all vastly different, live in total peace....Keep in mind that microbes haved waged 'wars' with each other for millions of years before organisms came about.

The answer is simple and fundamental. Cooperating and sharing is the key to survival. Not the darwinian of a dog eat dog world. We are what we are today because trillions of individual cells cooperate and share resources. If you consider humanity the highest form of evolution on the earth, consider the consequences of this revelation!

Imagine you are a cell in the body of Humanity. Imagine that each country is a vital organ or muscle in the body of Humanity. What the fuck are we doing to each other?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by juroara

Imagine you are a cell in the body of Humanity. Imagine that each country is a vital organ or muscle in the body of Humanity. What the fuck are we doing to each other?

---

nicely put, haha.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

You defeat your own argument through irrationality.

35 to 150 species a day and yet only 875 species since 1500. That is obviously 500 years and given that you think that there are 35 to 150 a day then obviously you aren't working out the math.

---

Can't you read? Rofl

You have absolutely no knowledge about the subject, you said less than 100 species had died since 500 years ago, where did you even get the number.

Can you read this then.

875 SPECIES IN DOCUMENTED CASES HAS GONE EXTINCT SINCE YEAR 1500. THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE OBSERVED AND WITNESSED DIRECTLY.

THIS IS NOT THE REAL NUMBER THOUGH, DUE TO MANY FACTORS WE CANNOT DIRECTLY OBSERVE THE ACTUAL NUMBER OF SPECIES GOING EXTINCT EVERY DAY, PARTIALLY BECAUSE OF WE ONLY KNOW A FRACTION OF ALL SPECIES CURRENTLY IN EXISTENCE. WITH STATISTICAL, BIOLOGICAL AND MATHEMATICAL KNOWLEDGE VARIOUS SCIENTIST HAVE GIVEN CALCULATED ESTIMATES OF THE NUMBER OF SPECIES GOING EXTINCT EVERY DAY FROM 35 TO 150.

THIS IS INDEED MORE THAN THE BACKGROUND NUMBER, BECAUSE MOST OF THESE SPECIES LIVES IN ISOLATED ARES IN FOREST, THAT ARE CUT DOWN RUTHLESSLY, THIS IS CALLED DEFORESTATION.

I HOPE YOU CAN READ THIS, SO YOU DON'T EMBARRASS YOURSELF ANY MORE.

sigh.. happy new year. :happyhappy:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia

Can't you read? Rofl

You have absolutely no knowledge about the subject, you said less than 100 species had died since 500 years ago, where did you even get the number.

---

I saw a site that only said 83. Are these 875 species ACTUALLY extinct? Or are they just on the threatened list?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia

[B]875 SPECIES IN DOCUMENTED CASES HAS GONE EXTINCT SINCE YEAR 1500. THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE OBSERVED AND WITNESSED DIRECTLY.

THIS IS NOT THE REAL NUMBER THOUGH, DUE TO MANY FACTORS WE CANNOT DIRECTLY OBSERVE THE ACTUAL NUMBER OF SPECIES GOING EXTINCT EVERY DAY, PARTIALLY BECAUSE OF WE ONLY KNOW A FRACTION OF ALL SPECIES CURRENTLY IN EXISTENCE. WITH STATISTICAL, BIOLOGICAL AND MATHEMATICAL KNOWLEDGE VARIOUS SCIENTIST HAVE GIVEN CALCULATED ESTIMATES OF THE NUMBER OF SPECIES GOING EXTINCT EVERY DAY FROM 35 TO 150.

---

Well if these cases go undocumented then how do you know it is 35 to 150? Arbitrary decision making of course.

Juroara, I was so glad to read your post. You expressed my thoughts too.

Most of the human race lacks great compassion. How foolish is the feeling of separation, and the ignorance of our responsibility for what we witness, as well as the ignorance of the power we have to change it. Things change at the moment one starts observing the world in connection and compassion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

Really? I'm making things up? You are postulating that +10,000 species die EVERY YEAR! In ten years that is +100,000 species. Do you know how unrealistic that number is?

---

Do you really think "that's just stupid" is a 'rational' argument, or are you just trolling?

Do you know how many different species there are on the planet?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xei

Do you really think "that's just stupid" is a 'rational' argument, or are you just trolling?

Do you know how many different species there are on the planet?

---

Clearly, appeal to this individual's rational is ineffective. When faced with the fallacious claim that around 100 different species of animals are dying everyday, do you honestly say 'Oh well that is believable'? This person practically did my job for me by claiming 875 species have died since 1500. Yes I understand that is only documented, however you have no way of knowing how many species have died that go 'undocumented.' The comment concerning 35 to +100 is based on that 'undocumented' projection. Discussions, debates, points of inquiry, whatever you wish to call what happens on these boards, are based on evidence and documentation, not wild speculation or arbitrary numbers. People obviously have a basis towards an argument but that doesn't mean you need to lose your sensibility and/or intelligence to discern what is actual factual.

I don't know what you're talking about any more. The range I gave was from biologists who work on this problem with mathematical methods, not wild speculation. Your claims have so far been based on 'it just sounds stupid'.

There could be as many as 100,000,000 different species on Earth so no, 100 a year is not intuitively incorrect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xei

I don't know what you're talking about any more. The range I gave was from biologists who work on this problem with mathematical methods, not wild speculation. Your claims have so far been based on 'it just sounds stupid'.

There could be as many as 100,000,000 different species on Earth so no, 100 a year is not intuitively incorrect.

---

Exactly, wild speculation. These are undocumented cases. Do you honestly think they reside in the rain forest for extended periods at varying localities without bias? They go to one point, count the number of animals, then speculate by fallaciously applying their numbers to represent whole ecosystems. Think of it like voter polling. Polls only represent 1000 people yet some people think it is an accurate representation of +150,000,000 people. It is completely ridiculous.

Laughing man, I am not going to waste my time on something that is very clear and apparent. If you want to know how it works, research it for yourself. I am not going to spend many minutes more researching only to provide answers for you, which you dismiss anyway. It is a simple waste of time when you cannot admit your own faulty logic. It is so typical that when one branch of science contradicts a completely uneducated opinion it is "BIASED" and "WILD SPECULATION". What the fuck, how much prejudice do you have against scientist who actually works in the field, and does a terrific work.

Why can't you just admit your own ignorance on this subject, and have more appreciation that you have learned something new today, instead of being argumentative like some teenager.

I cannot be any more clearer on this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia

Laughing man, I am not going to waste my time on something that is very clear and apparent. If you want to know how it works, research it for yourself.

---

What a wonderful cop out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia

I am not going to spend many minutes more researching only to provide answers for you, which you dismiss anyway. It is a simple waste of time when you cannot admit your own faulty logic.

---

Is this the point were you throw a temper tantrum and say I'm the one acting immature?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia

It is so typical that when one branch of science contradicts a completely uneducated opinion it is "BIASED" and "WILD SPECULATION". What the fuck, how much prejudice do you have against scientist who actually works in the field, and does a terrific work.

---

Apparently it is such a point. Everyone has a bias. Refute my arguments or stop the crybaby tactics.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia

Why can't you just admit your own ignorance on this subject, and have more appreciation that you have learned something new today, instead of being argumentative like some teenager.

I cannot be any more clearer on this.

---

I have refuted the arguments presented towards me, all you have done so far is say 'nanny nanny foo foo I'm right and you're wrong.' Don't presume to have the gull to call me a teenager when you have clearly been acting like a spoiled child.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xei

Well, how about the fact that most biologists think we are currently going through another major extinction event?

Given that there have been only 5 others as you say, it's a bit of a massive coincidence that this event should occur in the 10,000 years out of the 4,000,000,000 in the Earth's history that there has been human civilization.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

Hysteria. There have been less then 100 species which have gone extinct...in the last 500 years.

---

that's just nuts - i really can't take anything you say seriously, laughing man.

you're not providing anything substantial - you're just flaming people who have reasonable things to say. i've taken a number of environmental science courses at a university and i can say that most of what specialis sapientia said regarding species extinctions is accurate. there is an entire field of study devoted to this kind of research - it's called conservation biology.

are you denying that there is anything wrong with the way we relate to our environment? because from what i can gather from your posts you think everything is fine, the paradigm of modernity is just fine, and the environment is fine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cygnus

that's just nuts - i really can't take anything you say seriously, laughing man.

you're not providing anything substantial - you're just flaming people who have reasonable things to say. i've taken a number of environmental science courses at a university and i can say that most of what specialis sapientia said regarding species extinctions is accurate. there is an entire field of study devoted to this kind of research - it's called conservation biology.

are you denying that there is anything wrong with the way we relate to our environment? because from what i can gather from your posts you think everything is fine, the paradigm of modernity is just fine, and the environment is fine.

---

Again, no retorts, no arguments, just baseless platitudes of 'you're wrong I'm right.' Come with facts and arguments, not appeals to emotion and asinine comments.

Okay people, this guy is either completely obnoxious or he's just a plain troll. Just leave him alone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xei

Okay people, this guy is either completely obnoxious or he's just a plain troll. Just leave him alone.

---

How I present an argument does not diminish the argument itself. I could be the nicest guy in the world or a complete ass and the argument would still be the same.

I just got some news in a text message. Al Gore can't give his global warming speech today. His tongue is stuck to a flag pole.

Are you having cold weather in the US or something?

It's the coldest for 30 years here and the whole country's covered in snow. I'm not going to be so as obnoxious as to claim that this discredits global warming, but the problem is that the MET office predicted a 'barbeque summer' which turned out to be one of the mildest on record and then a 'mild winter' which turned out to be one of the coldest on record. They've had billions to spend over decades to refine their climate models and they're still completely and utterly hopeless over long periods of time. As computer models are as far as I can see the only thing supporting AGW and the email leaks show that at least some of them are in complete disarray, I'm pretty apathetic about the whole thing.

Quote:

---

SUV's On Jupiter?
Are humans responsible for climate change on the outer reaches of the solar system, or is it the sun?
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles...suvjupiter.htm

Paul Joseph Watson
Prison Planet
Thursday, November 16, 2006

Kofi Annan today slammed global warming skeptics as being "out of step" and "out of time," but how will altering human activity halt climate change when the evidence clearly indicates that the sun itself and not SUV's is heating up the entire solar system?

"The U.N. chief lamented "a frightening lack of leadership" in fashioning next steps to reduce global emissions. "Let us start being more politically courageous," he urged the hundreds of delegates from some 180 member nations of the 1992 U.N. climate treaty," reports Forbes.(http://www.forbes.com/technology/ebu...ap3177037.html)

But how do we square the fact that almost every planet in our solar system is simultaneously undergoing temperature change and volatile weather patterns. Does this not suggest that global warming is a natural cycle as a result of the evolving nature of the sun? Can Al Gore fill me in on this one?

- Space.com: Global Warming on Pluto Puzzles Scientists (http://www.space.com/scienceastronom...ng_021009.html)
In what is largely a reversal of an August announcement, astronomers today said Pluto is undergoing global warming in its thin atmosphere even as it moves farther from the Sun on its long, odd-shaped orbit.

- Space.com: New Storm on Jupiter Hints at Climate Change (http://www.space.com/scienceastronom...04_red_jr.html)
The latest images could provide evidence that Jupiter is in the midst of a global change that can modify temperatures by as much as 10 degrees Fahrenheit on different parts of the globe.

- Current Science & Technology Center: Global Warming on Mars? (http://www.mos.org/cst-archive/article/80/9.html)
A study of the ice caps on Mars may show that the red planet is experiencing a warming trend. If both Mars and Earth are experiencing global warming, then perhaps there is a larger phenomenon going on in the Solar System that is causing their global climates to change.

- United Press International: NASA looks at a monster storm on Saturn (http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/view.ph...9-022035-4126r)
NASA says its Cassini spacecraft has found a hurricane-like storm at Saturn's South Pole, nearly 5,000 miles across -- or two-thirds Earth's diameter.

- Science Agogo: Global Warming Detected on Triton (http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/199...runc_sys.shtml)
There may not be much industrial pollution on Neptune's largest moon, but things are hotting up nonetheless. "At least since 1989, Triton has been undergoing a period of global warming," confirms astronomer James Elliot, professor of Earth, Atmospheric and Planetary Sciences at Massachusetts Institute of Technology. "Percentage-wise, it's a very large increase."

- Associated Press: Study says sun getting hotter (http://www.lubbockonline.com/news/092897/study.htm)
Solar radiation reaching the Earth is 0.036 percent warmer than it was in 1986, when the current solar cycle was beginning, a researcher reports in a study to be published Friday in the journal Science. The finding is based on an analysis of satellites that measure the temperature of sunlight.

- London Telegraph: The truth about global warming - it's the Sun that's to blame (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...ixnewstop.html)
Global warming has finally been explained: the Earth is getting hotter because the Sun is burning more brightly than at any time during the past 1,000 years, according to new research.

The simple fact is that throughout the ages the earth has swung wildly between a warm, wet, stable climate, to a cold, dry and windy one - long before the first fossil fuel was burned. The changes we are now witnessing are a walk in the park compared to the battering that our planet has taken in the past.

This is not a defense of the oil cartels or the Neo-Con wreckers, who would have every motivation to ignore global warming whether it is man-made or not.

Nor is it a blanket denial of the fact that the earth is getting very gradually hotter, but how do we reconcile global warming taking place at the farthest reaches of the solar system with the contention that it is caused by human activity? Have our exhaust fumes left earth's atmosphere and slipped through a black hole to Triton?

The assertion that global warming is man made is so oppressively enforced upon popular opinion, especially in Europe, that expressing a scintilla of doubt is akin to holocaust denial in some cases. Such is the insipid brainwashing that has taken place via television, newspapers and exalted talking heads - global warming skeptics are forced to wear the metaphoric yellow star and only discuss their doubts in hushed tones and conciliatory frameworks, or be cat-called, harangued and jeered by an army of do-gooders who righteously believe they are rescuing mother earth by recycling a wine bottle or putting their paper in a separate trash can.

Fearmongering about an imminent climate doomsday also hogs news coverage and important environmental issues like GM food, mad scientist chimera cloning and the usurpation and abuse of corporations like Monsanto flies under the radar.

Global warming is cited as an excuse to meter out further control and surveillance over our daily lives, RFID chips on our trash cans, GPS satellite tacking and taxation by the mile, as well as a global tax at the gas pump.

The extremist wing of the environmentalist movement, characterized by people like Dr. Erik Pianka, advocate the mass culling of humanity via plagues and state sanctioned bio-terrorism, in order to "save" the earth from the disease of humanity. Nazi-like genocial population control measures and the environmental establishment have always held a close alliance.

The orthodox organized religion of global warming and its disastrous consequences for our freedom of speech, freedom of mobility and our right to remain outside of the system, needs to be questioned on the foundational basis that the phenomenon is solar-system wide and it is mainly caused by the natural evolution of the sun and not human activity.

---

These two are old but still relevant

Quote:

---

Scientists blame sun for global warming
Friday, February 13, 1998 Published at 19:25 GMT
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/sci/tech/56456.stm

The Sun is more active than it has ever been in the last 300 years
Climate changes such as global warming may be due to changes in the sun rather than to the release of greenhouse gases on Earth.

Climatologists and astronomers speaking at the American Association for the Advancement of Science meeting in Philadelphia say the present warming may be unusual - but a mini ice age could soon follow.

The sun provides all the energy that drives our climate, but it is not the constant star it might seem.

Careful studies over the last 20 years show that its overall brightness and energy output increases slightly as sunspot activity rises to the peak of its 11-year cycle.

And individual cycles can be more or less active.

The sun is currently at its most active for 300 years.

That, say scientists in Philadelphia, could be a more significant cause of global warming than the emissions of greenhouse gases that are most often blamed.

The researchers point out that much of the half-a-degree rise in global temperature over the last 120 years occurred before 1940 - earlier than the biggest rise in greenhouse gas emissions.

Ancient trees reveal most warm spells are caused by the sun
Using ancient tree rings, they show that 17 out of 19 warm spells in the last 10,000 years coincided with peaks in solar activity.

They have also studied other sun-like stars and found that they spend significant periods without sunspots at all, so perhaps cool spells should be feared more than global warming.

The scientists do not pretend they can explain everything, nor do they say that attempts to reduce greenhouse gas emissions should be abandoned. But they do feel that understanding of our nearest star must be increased if the climate is to be understood.

---

Quote:

---

Global warming - is the Sun to blame?
Thursday, June 3, 1999 Published at 09:43 GMT 10:43 UK
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/358953.stm

More research is called for to determine the Sun's effect on climate change

By BBC News Online Science Editor Dr David Whitehouse
Global warming may not be caused by humanity's fossil fuel emissions, but could be due to changes in the Sun.

Research suggests that the magnetic flux from the Sun more than doubled this century. As solar magnetism is closely linked with sunspot activity and the strength of sunlight reaching Earth, the increase could have produced warming in the global climate.


Prof. Mike Lockwood: "The man made greenhouse gases is accelerating as time goes by"
The evidence for an increasingly energetic Sun comes from a new analysis of the magnetic field between the planets, carried out by scientists at the Rutherford Appleton Laboratory, near Oxford, UK.

Solar Wind

This magnetic field is caused by the Solar Wind, a stream of particles given off by the Sun which fills the solar system.

The Solar Wind brings the Sun's magnetic field into space
The scientists produce evidence that since 1964 the interplanetary magnetic field has increased in strength by 40%.

Evidence from before the space age suggests that the magnetic field is 2.3 times stronger than it was in 1901.

Scientists do not doubt that the increased magnetic field results from a more energetic Sun. Their problem is that the effect of these increases on the Earth is unknown.

Not our fault?

The research is published in Nature and in the same journal Professor Eugene Parker, of the Laboratory for Astrophysics and Space Research, University of Chicago, comments that it could explain global warming.

He notes that the increased solar activity has occurred in parallel with an increase in carbon dioxide in the Earth's atmosphere. And it may not be a coincidence, he says.

Professor Parker suggests that the Sun's increased activity caused the Earth's global temperature to rise and that in turn warmed the oceans.

Warmer oceans absorb less carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. So a warmer Earth has more of the so-called greenhouse gases. Humanity's burning of fossil fuels may therefore not be the cause of global warming.

Perilous plans

Professor Parker adds that that more research must be done about the Sun's role in global warming before drastic action is taken here on Earth.

"It is essential to check to what extent the facts support these conclusions before embarking on drastic, perilous and perhaps misguided plans for global action," he says.

Measurements of the magnetic field are not the only evidence for the Sun's variable influence on the Earth. The planet went through a "little ice age" during the 17th Century, at a time when very few sunspots appeared on the surface of the Sun.

And the so-called "medieval maximum" was a period of warmer than average global weather in the 12th Century. Astronomers believe that the Sun was slightly brighter at that time.

---

Quote:

---

Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth'? -- $30,000 utility bill
Wednesday, February 28, 2007
http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?se......&id=5072659

(2/27/07 - NASHVILLE, TN) -- Back home in Tennessee, safely ensconced in his suburban Nashville home, Vice President Al Gore is no doubt basking in the Oscar awarded to "An Inconvenient Truth," the documentary he inspired and in which he starred. But a local free-market think tank is trying to make that very home emblematic of what it deems Gore's environmental hypocrisy.

Armed with Gore's utility bills for the last two years, the Tennessee Center for Policy Research charged Monday that the gas and electric bills for the former vice president's 20-room home and pool house devoured nearly 221,000 kilowatt-hours in 2006, more than 20 times the national average of 10,656 kilowatt-hours.

"If this were any other person with $30,000-a-year in utility bills, I wouldn't care," says the Center's 27-year-old president, Drew Johnson. "But he tells other people how to live and he's not following his own rules."

...

The Center claims that Nashville Electric Services records show the Gores in 2006 averaged a monthly electricity bill of $1,359 for using 18,414 kilowatt-hours, and $1,461 per month for using 16,200 kilowatt-hours in 2005. During that time, Nashville Gas Company billed the family an average of $536 a month for the main house and $544 for the pool house in 2006, and $640 for the main house and $525 for the pool house in 2005. That averages out to be $29,268 in gas and electric bills for the Gores in 2006, $31,512 in 2005

---

Quote:

---

Gore’s Dual Role: Advocate and Investor
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/03/bu...gore.html?_r=1

By JOHN M. BRODER
NY TIMES
Published: November 2, 2009
WASHINGTON — Former Vice President Al Gore thought he had spotted a winner last year when a small California firm sought financing for an energy-saving technology from the venture capital firm where Mr. Gore is a partner.

Former Vice President Al Gore, who has become a major voice around the world on the issue of climate change, spoke last month at a forum in Dubai.

The company, Silver Spring Networks, produces hardware and software to make the electricity grid more efficient. It came to Mr. Gore’s firm, Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers, one of Silicon Valley’s top venture capital providers, looking for $75 million to expand its partnerships with utilities seeking to install millions of so-called smart meters in homes and businesses.

Mr. Gore and his partners decided to back the company, and in gratitude Silver Spring retained him and John Doerr, another Kleiner Perkins partner, as unpaid corporate advisers.

The deal appeared to pay off in a big way last week, when the Energy Department announced $3.4 billion in smart grid grants. Of the total, more than $560 million went to utilities with which Silver Spring has contracts. Kleiner Perkins and its partners, including Mr. Gore, could recoup their investment many times over in coming years.

---

People, man-made climate change is a fraud being carried out by powerful people who stand to profiteer off of the ensuing laws and regulations that will make costs for small businesses become prohibitive, and run them out of business, while Al Gore is making hundreds of millions of dollars from a company that would not have existed without his relentless hype regarding global warming. People have come to believe a movie star rather than a true climatologist.

Advocates say that more than 15,000 scientists agree that global warming is man-made, but the truth is that hardly a fraction of them are actually climatologists.

The Sun is the cause of the earth, and the other planets, heating up just as it has always been the cause, long before humans were able to have the slight understanding meteorology that we have now. It is not just a stationary object, the Sun is constantly internally and externally fluctuating, and nobody has the capability to truly predict what the sun will do. We know that it is on its course to becoming a red giant hundreds of millions of years down the road, when it will eventually consume the majority of our solar system with its sheer size. However, presently the sun is at a warming period, which accounts for reports wherein other planets are observed in warm periods simoultaneously with the Earth.

@Laughing Man,

Given that we have discoverd that often times a single tree can be an
enviroment for a species that exists nowhere else and taking into account
just how little we still know about the rainforest, the wide range of 35-150
species doesn't even seem that unrealistic, especially considering how
many full grown trees are cut every day.

Also we are discovering new species every day.

I agree with juroara on this issue. To me the rainforest and our oceans
are the most fascinating spawns of life, with such a diversity and importance
for the natural balance. I have been following the development especially of
the oceans for quite a while and it makes me really sad, as to how they are
treated and how we already caused so much permanent damage.

Personally, I see much more urgency in these issues (and our use of natural
ressources) than in global warming, which seems too jointed in with politics
and lobbyism for me to full-heartedly believe it.

I don't care why some people feel the need to vehemently deny global warming, but the scientific FACTS are clear:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0618143950.htm

http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/article...&from=rss_home

http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/eff...al/sap4-1.html

http://www.wmo.int/pages/mediacentre...pr_869_en.html

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/corporat...20091210b.html

http://nsidc.org/news/press/20091005_minimumpr.html

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories...02_seaice.html

http://sciencestage.com/resources/cl...ring-1950-2099

http://news.ncsu.edu/releases/crop-y...uld-wilt-heat/

http://www.globalchange.gov/publicat...nts/us-impacts

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/New...w.php?id=41455

Many of the effects are worse and coming sooner than we thought. It really mystifies me why some people think that caring about the environment is a BAD thing. It's like hating oxygen. Or hating the sole reason you're alive at all- this livable planet. Anyone with half a functioning brain knows that sustainable living practices are logical and beneficial for EVERYONE- not thoughtless greed and ignorance.

Deery, it's also happening on Mars and Jupiter.

Are you aware of the back and forth between global warming and global cooling that has been going on since the 1800's? I have seen you go off in really nasty ways on people for believing what the mainstream tells them. What would you say you are doing with global warming?

I've only just seen this but believe it or not I was visiting Jozef Medved, the Slovak environment minister at his house (family friend) over new year drinking some rather lovely French wine discussing this. He was there in place of the Slovak president. He was telling some interesting stories about what went on.

..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adam

I've only just seen this but believe it or not I was visiting Jozef Medved, the Slovak environment minister at his house (family friend) over new year drinking some rather lovely French wine discussing this.

---

:wtf:

You don't believe me?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adam

You don't believe me?

---

I'm just playing. I was there too. I just didn't tell you how you already knew me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Deery, it's also happening on Mars and Jupiter.

---

It's also been shown that there's a marked, extreme rise in CO2 levels since the industrial revolution began. I don't think that Mars and Jupiter show that.

Quote:

---

Are you aware of the back and forth between global warming and global cooling that has been going on since the 1800's? I have seen you go off in really nasty ways on people for believing what the mainstream tells them. What would you say you are doing with global warming?

---

Can you list examples of where I was so nasty to other people? Besides, global warming is not simply a mainstream dogma. It's supported by FACTS and EVIDENCE. Time will tell whether enough people will stand up to this and see the logic to do something about it. It's like saying that the Earth being round is a kind of religion perpetuated by the mainstream media, and I'm really having enough of it.

Again, I really can't understand what your reasoning has to do with neglecting the environment and having a passive attitude towards deforestation, overpopulation, pollution and other real dangers that aren't going away unless people act on it. I'm sick and tired of the lies. The fact that I have to sit here, constantly debate and defend this obvious reality in the first place illustrates what discouragingly little hope there is for our future.

DeeryTheDeer, you know you won't accomplish anything by trying to prove something. That's way passed over a simple debate. Calm down, recycle, love and enjoy the trees (well, those that are left), boycott environmentally unfriendly products and be an example. Your options are that, or getting your spirit crushed by your 'anxious for proving' ego (which I understand, don't get me wrong, but find ineffective and self destructive ) and eventually becoming one of those who don't care.

Think local to make it global. Or... you know... what Gandhi beautifully said. ;)

A summary of 2010 in Brazil:

12 days, 12 rains, 12 days with floods, countless people homeless, barrages coming down, water reservoirs risking coming down or leaking, cars breaking down in the middle of the streets due to overheating, summer diseases. Seriously. You ignorant ass conservatives stop deluding yourselves into thinking the world is fine. If you don't wanna survive, other people do.

Some neighborhoods that were flooded still haven't dried up, after days.

Stop being idiots.

pollution cigarette-equivalent packs examples
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20...icineandhealth

Even if global warming is bullshit, there's still the pollution issue. Lots of breathing issues and premature deaths happens because of it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer

It's also been shown that there's a marked, extreme rise in CO2 levels since the industrial revolution began. I don't think that Mars and Jupiter show that.



Can you list examples of where I was so nasty to other people? Besides, global warming is not simply a mainstream dogma. It's supported by FACTS and EVIDENCE. Time will tell whether enough people will stand up to this and see the logic to do something about it. It's like saying that the Earth being round is a kind of religion perpetuated by the mainstream media, and I'm really having enough of it.

Again, I really can't understand what your reasoning has to do with neglecting the environment and having a passive attitude towards deforestation, overpopulation, pollution and other real dangers that aren't going away unless people act on it. I'm sick and tired of the lies. The fact that I have to sit here, constantly debate and defend this obvious reality in the first place illustrates what discouragingly little hope there is for our future.

---

In case you didn't catch this the first time...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Just give it a few years. The global cooling scare will make its way back yet again. The extreme of the temperature scare has switched like seven times since the 1800's. At this point, I am not worried that the sky is falling. "Wolf" has been cried way too many times.

http://www.businessandmedia.org/spec...fireandice.asp

I was a child in the 1970's, and the environmental activism fad of the era was this...



http://www.infowars.com/cooling-tren...eory-in-doubt/

Go ahead and call bullshit on Al Gore, the grand wizard of the global warming fad, because he is quite full of it. The temperature of the core of Earth is is in the low thousands.

http://www.ehow.com/about_4660925_te...ter-earth.html

Now here's Al Whore with his true ignorance...



The godfather of global warming obviously isn't such an expert on Earth temperature. By the way, global warming is happening on Mars.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...s-warming.html

:roll:

---

Don't listen to the bullshit. Tons of actual climate scientists, including the head of NASA, have called B.S. on global warming. If the hysterical crazies had been correct when I was your age, the Brazilian Rainforest would be gone and the world would already be out of oxygen. I'm serious. That is what I was taught in 10th grade chemistry. Since then, the first sub-3:45 mile has been run. But the oxygen is running out at an extreme rate?

Also, always keep in mind that correlation does not prove causation. Lack of sight of that is what the propagandists manipulate with. The temperatures on Mars and Jupiter have gone up since the Industrial Revolution. They have gone up since I bought my first Subway sandwich. It doesn't mean anything. Planets go through cycles. However, humans always have some crazy environmental crisis to freak out about. The fact that the crisis changes every decade should tell you volumes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Don't listen to the bullshit. Tons of actual climate scientists, including the head of NASA, have called B.S. on global warming. If the hysterical crazies had been correct when I was your age, the Brazilian Rainforest would be gone and the world would already be out of oxygen. I'm serious. That is what I was taught in 10th grade chemistry. Since then, the first sub-3:45 mile has been run. But the oxygen is running out at an extreme rate?

---

Not true. All predictions, when you were younger, were for a far future. I was taught it too. Things about 2050. Seriously, stop being a hard-head, it won't benefit anyone. You're just refusing to see the world is not a beautiful fairytale.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Not true. All predictions, when you were younger, were for a far future. I was taught it too. Things about 2050. Seriously, stop being a hard-head, it won't benefit anyone. You're just refusing to see the world is not a beautiful fairytale.

---

:rolllaugh: You're joking, right? I'm refusing to see that the world is not a fairy tale? Have you completely forgotten who you are talking to? Have you forgotten all I have said about the threat of WMD terrorism, the dangers of socialism, the horrors of the war on drugs, the mind boggling way negative history keeps repeating itself, etc.? You are so dishonest.

I was taught that the world would run out of the necessary amount of oxygen to sustain mammal life by 2010. I was taught that in 1988. I was there, and you were not even born yet. It was a 22 year prediction. I am in that "far future" right now. The time passed, and the prediction was a total crock of shit. Stop being an idiot.

Did you catch this?



Tell me your take on that mainstream "The sky is falling!" prediction. Was it correct? Talk to me.

To be honest there were about 10 times more reports of global warming in the scientific literature than global cooling at the time; the 'ice age coming' stuff was mainly contrived by the media.

But you're right that in itself a rise (I wouldn't say extreme...) in CO2 is not evidence for AGW. There's also been a steady rise in the number of pop songs released per year over the last century.

You know what temperature is it here? 27ºC. That's 80.6ºF. Let me tell you something. It's fucking 3:11 AM. 27ºC. There have been daily floods in my city. Don't tell me global warming isn't happening.

Over here in Britain we're having the coldest winter for 30 years.

Please don't tell me you actually think the above is a legitimate argument.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xei

Over here in Britain we're having the coldest winter for 30 years.

Please don't tell me you actually think the above is a legitimate argument.

---

For the first time ever, the underground water pipe system in Jackson, Mississippi froze up and busted. Water will be unavailable within the city limits for probably about the next two weeks. It made national news.

One of the major signs of climate change is rising extremes in weather and temperature, on both sides. It should say something that at the same time it's hotter than ever where Kromoh lives, it's colder than ever where Xei lives. Natural disasters are becoming more frequent and destructive, and weather patterns across the world are becoming more unstable, which illuminates those extremes in temperatures. And doesn't it seem disturbing that the underground water pipe froze and busted for the first time ever? At first I thought you bringing that up was you suddenly proving that we are in a climate crisis.

Only typical ignorant simpletons rub their hands together in the winter and say "global warming my ass!"

What about this though?
http://www.nowpublic.com/environment...d-2530603.html

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer

One of the major signs of climate change is rising extremes in weather and temperature, on both sides. It should say something that at the same time it's hotter than ever where Kromoh lives, it's colder than ever where Xei lives. Natural disasters are becoming more frequent and destructive, and weather patterns across the world are becoming more unstable, which illuminates those extremes in temperatures. And doesn't it seem disturbing that the underground water pipe froze and busted for the first time ever? At first I thought you bringing that up was you suddenly proving that we are in a climate crisis.

---

How convenient. The original term was global warming, not global extreming. It is not our coldest winter ever. It is our coldest winter since the pipe system was installed. The fad you are part of WILL be over in the next few decades. Stick around.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer

Only typical ignorant simpletons rub their hands together in the winter and say "global warming my ass!"

---

Why do you talk like that? Were you raised to be rude or something? You come across like you just learned how to have political opinions and think you're cool for initiating insults. Are you in the 9th grade? Since you brought it up, we can compare educations whenever you are ready. Would you like to do that? I am not even close to being intimidated by your education or your intellect. Sorry for the bad news, Little Missy. Don't skip class today.

Yes, I'm going to have to ask you to explain to me the 'CO2 reflects longwave radiation back to Earth causing lower temperatures' argument.

If you read what on the previous page I was actually arguing against the idea that you can infer climate trends from the weather, not for it.

Deery, I still want to know what you think of global cooling. Did you see the short video I posted? Give us your commentary.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Why do you talk like that? Were you raised to be rude or something? You come across like you just learned how to have political opinions and think you're cool for initiating insults. Are you in the 9th grade? Since you brought it up, we can compare educations whenever you are ready. Would you like to do that? I am not even close to being intimidated by your education or your intellect. Sorry for the bad news, Little Missy. Don't skip class today.

---

Wow. Just. Wow. Do you enjoy being a complete and utter hypocrite or does it just come naturally? This is just laughable.

Quote:

---

Stop being an idiot

---

I suppose you're the shining example of civility and decency. How cool do you think you are for singling me out? Obviously, it was only this one thing I said that set you off into a raging hissy fit about my "rudeness". I really don't know why. My observation was neutral compared to what you spew.

Yes, I watched the global cooling video and found it interesting. You still haven't made any commentary about the REAL pollution and destruction of swamplands and habitats that humans SHOULD do something about, no matter what you believe about global warming. Again, does it really kill people to respect the environment and preserve it for ourselves and future generations? Does it? I would like to know. Really, I'm all ears.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer

Wow. Just. Wow. Do you enjoy being a complete and utter hypocrite or does it just come naturally? This is just laughable.

---

Lesson for the day: Retaliation is not hypocritical.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer

I suppose you're the shining example of civility and decency. How cool do you think you are for singling me out? Obviously, it was only this one thing I said that set you off into a raging hissy fit about my "rudeness". I really don't know why. My observation was neutral compared to what you spew.

---

If you act rude, you are going to get it back. Also, you lied. You actually said this...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer

Only typical ignorant simpletons rub their hands together in the winter and say "global warming my ass!"

---

You can dish it out but can't take it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer

Yes, I watched the global cooling video and found it interesting. You still haven't made any commentary about the REAL pollution and destruction of swamplands and habitats that humans SHOULD do something about, no matter what you believe about global warming. Again, does it really kill people to respect the environment and preserve it for ourselves and future generations? Does it? I would like to know. Really, I'm all ears.

---

You changed the subject.

I am against the destruction of swamp land and other cool nature scenes in the vast majority of cases. I live in the South and am a big fan of swamps.