Thread: Copenhagen Summit and US Senate Climate Legislation

Originally Posted by cygnus

did i say man was responsible for all extinction?

You certainly gave the impression that man is the source for disharmony in the world.

Originally Posted by cygnus

a libation is a drink poured out as an offering to a deity. i take it that you deify some part of modernity, apparently it's economy and use of labor, or have esteem for people who do. i can't see any other way to interpret your version of this "wonderful nonsense."

A libation could also mean a good that brings about relaxation or a jolly environment. Yes I like the modern. I find it strange though that you consider the modern 'wonderful nonsense' while you sit in front of a computer and make such asinine claims. It is time you merged theory with practice. Unplug the computer, go be free in the wild. I wish you well on your primitivist lifestyle.

you're bastardizing very reasonable posts. i wasn't being a dick to you, and i'm not now - that doesn't contribute anything.

and 'wonderful nonsense' was your phrase!

Originally Posted by cygnus

and 'wonderful nonsense' was your phrase!

And did you not use it to explain my love of 'modernity'?

'i take it that you deify some part of modernity, apparently it's economy and use of labor, or have esteem for people who do. i can't see any other way to interpret your version of this "wonderful nonsense.'

Yes, you did.

yeah that's why i put it in quotation marks.

Originally Posted by cygnus

yeah that's why i put it in quotation marks.

But you still used it in a sentence. Could you perhaps move onto a productive criticism of what I wrote?

Well, how about the fact that most biologists think we are currently going through another major extinction event?

Given that there have been only 5 others as you say, it's a bit of a massive coincidence that this event should occur in the 10,000 years out of the 4,000,000,000 in the Earth's history that there has been human civilization.

Originally Posted by Xei

Well, how about the fact that most biologists think we are currently going through another major extinction event?

Hysteria. There have been less then 100 species which have gone extinct...in the last 500 years.

Originally Posted by Xei

Given that there have been only 5 others as you say, it's a bit of a massive coincidence that this event should occur in the 10,000 years out of the 4,000,000,000 in the Earth's history that there has been human civilization.

What?

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

Hysteria. There have been less then 100 species which have gone extinct...in the last 500 years.

What the fuck, 35 to 150 species goes extinct every day.

Look it up for yourself.

Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia

What the fuck, 35 to 150 species goes extinct every day.

Look it up for yourself.

That would mean that 12775 to 54750 species die every year. That is impossible. Recheck your data.

Uh sorry, why is it impossible? The upper and lower bounds of extinct species in the last century are 20,000 and 2,000,000.

Read about the holocene extinction event. At the moment you're just making shit up which isn't very constructive.

Originally Posted by Xei

Uh sorry, why is it impossible? The upper and lower bounds of extinct species in the last century are 20,000 and 2,000,000.

Read about the holocene extinction event. At the moment you're just making shit up which isn't very constructive.

Really? I'm making things up? You are postulating that +10,000 species die EVERY YEAR! In ten years that is +100,000 species. Do you know how unrealistic that number is?

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

That would mean that 12775 to 54750 species die every year. That is impossible. Recheck your data.

Eh, that is certainly not impossible.

See the basics here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction

The main cause of these extinctions are deforestation. Particularly species of insects are very vulnerable to this kind of interference.

About 875 species has gone extinct since 1500 that was DOCUMENTED, big difference..

How many of those are Vertebrates? Alot, how many Vertebrates exist per percentage of total? 3%

We have so far only identified 1.25 million animal species, 76 & of those are insects. We have only discovered a fraction of all animal species that exist currently.

Yes, 35 to 150 species do go extinct every day.

Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia

About 875 species has gone extinct since 1500 that was DOCUMENTED, big difference..

Yes, 35 to 150 species do go extinct every day.

You defeat your own argument through irrationality.

35 to 150 species a day and yet only 875 species since 1500. That is obviously 500 years and given that you think that there are 35 to 150 a day then obviously you aren't working out the math.

Originally Posted by Alric

I take it you are not one of the people who think global man made climate change is a fruad?

global warming global warming global warming global warming, republicans versus democrats? fox versus cnn?

It's getting sickening!

listen people! the climate destruction IS NOT ABOUT GLOBAL WARMING. The reality is forests are disappearing at an alarming rate. The reality is the oceans are dying. We are over fishing throwing off the entire eco system of the ocean out of balance. Entire species that we love to eat, like tuna, might go extinct.

However, the real concern isn't that a single species will disappear. The real concern is how interconnected the entire ocean is. The ocean has no 'walls' or borders like we do here on land. Several species roam from sea to sea, affecting all other species. The loss of a single species creates a chain reaction that is more real and dangerous than anything we have seen in an isolated forest.

The danger is real.......the very basic life force of the ocean is dying. The primitive plant life of the ocean.

The primitive plant life of the ocean is dying because of several factors. Pollution for one, we have treated the ocean is our sewer. We owe our very existence to this primitive life. We owe our oxygen to them. And if they continue to die in this massive extinction. HUMANITY WILL JOIN THEM.

They produce the majority of our oxygen. Together with the destruction of forests, wild grasses, detoxing swamps, and the primitive plant life of the ocean - we will suffocate ourselves and go extinct with the dinosaurs.

This isn't a myth. This is real. This is happening right now.

Do you understand?

Do you or do you not?





If you don't, it's not that complicated. This is very simple science. The earth is a tiny little island. This meant that life, all life on the earth have to share the same resources. Life answered this dilemma by evolving a system of sharing resources.

The sharing of resources, the sharing of energy, is fundamental for survival for every species on the earth.

The sharing of resources for survival is evident in the intimate relationships between plants and animals. Plants give off oxygen. That is their 'waste' product. Animals breathe oxygen, which they need to survive. Animals give off carbon dioxide as their waste product. Plants need the waste product of animals, carbon dioxide, to photosynthesize. See the happy little circle??? Should all the animals of the earth magically disappear, then our plants too would die.

Do you get it? EVERY oxygen breathing animal is dependent on plant life, especially the primitive plant life of the ocean. And as well, plant life is also dependent on animals. The two evolved together and not independently.

Sharing, cooperation.

People need to pull their heads of our their asses and wake up. We are a part of the earth and we are a part of it's ecosystem, not separate from it. Everything we do effects everything else. This is much bigger than some climate change. Were talking about the fundamental balance of life here. Were talking about the extinction of humanity.










The change that needs to take place is our very fundamental beliefs. Right now people view saving the environment some sort of 'cause'. Like giving money to the homeless. The problem with this mentally that it is a 'cause', is that 'causes' are personal. So someone thinks we should give money to homeless, others think homeless are just ass lazy and need to get a bloody job already.

This mentality that saving the environment is a 'cause' is self evident in how we treat saving the environment. It's thought of as small little meager actions you do throughout the day...Like recycling a bottle. Or not taking a shower today , who knows.

Those trying to save the environment also tend to tell us "just do little things, even the little things count"

But it doesn't matter if everyone recycles. It doesn't matter if we do all of those little things, those little sacrifices. It doesn't change the fundamental belief that nature is separate from us. It doesn't change the fundamental belief that our profit, our capitalistic ways, our pleasure and leisure come before nature. It doesn't change the fundamental beliefs that we can OWN nature. That we can literally OWN a trees life. Literally OWN a river, a lake, a forest.............................

That we have the right to chop down a tree just because someone didn't want it in their yard. Or yet worse, that we have the right to copyright a seed, forcing farmers to buy the new seed every year instead of letting mother nature pollinate and create free seeds.

When you understand that the fundamental 'law of the jungle' is sharing and cooperating, then you understand that this idea of ownership is actually ridiculous and insane. Lakes, rivers, forests, even a single tree belongs to everyone and no one.

It's our entire belief system that needs to change.

When we change our relationship with nature, we also change our relationship with ourselves and each other. Virtually all problems plaguing humanity stem from our insane and unnatural fundamental beliefs.

juroara, you basically took the thoughts i was working with and expanded them nicely

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

A libation could also mean a good that brings about relaxation or a jolly environment. Yes I like the modern. I find it strange though that you consider the modern 'wonderful nonsense' while you sit in front of a computer and make such asinine claims. It is time you merged theory with practice. Unplug the computer, go be free in the wild. I wish you well on your primitivist lifestyle.

you missed the whole point i was making.

Originally Posted by cygnus

when you combine a utilitarian, materialistic worldview with capitalism, technology and population growth, you have something that degrades not only the environment but the human experience at a very fundamental level.

of course you can say, "would you rather not have technology, an increased life expectancy, or roads?"

to have a balanced application of our potential as a species might mean acknowledging the weight of an unsustainable way of life, the benefits of man-made elements, and the costs to our physical, mental, emotional and spiritual health.

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

A libation could also mean a good that brings about relaxation or a jolly environment. Yes I like the modern. I find it strange though that you consider the modern 'wonderful nonsense' while you sit in front of a computer and make such asinine claims. It is time you merged theory with practice. Unplug the computer, go be free in the wild. I wish you well on your primitivist lifestyle.

the above is an example when you carry the FALSE belief that man and all that man does is fundamentally separate from nature

that to argue we need to be in tuned with nature must also mean we need to give up the joys that our technology has given. but this is a false notion created by a false belief

technology is not separate from nature either!!!

and while I know even though there are a lot of hippies out there that think the only way we can live in peace with nature is to live like wild and ignorant humans, this isn't true either

I'm reading a book now that uses the human body as an example of technology in nature. In fact, the author of the book actually believes that all of our great technology...............was actually first created by microscopic life millions of years ago.

I'll quote the book later, I gotta go to work soon

But the author gives simple examples how in history when ever we discovered a new form of technology - the inventors/scientists used the human body as a way to explain how this technology works!....You gotta start wonder...is there any technology that we have that hasn't been done on a microscopic level first????

I'll post examples of this technology later. But right now the important thing to understand is how the technology is used is vastly different than how we use our technology. It's the usage that's different

Cell biologists describe the trillions of cells in our body, as a cooperative community. It may seem insane to think of our body as a 'community', because communities are composed of 'individuals'. But in fact, everyone of your living cells is an individual, in that you can take this cell out of your body, and so long as it's given the nourishment it needs - it will live. It lives because it is only 'your body' when it is a part of the 'community'.

Cell biologists are discovering how trillions of cells, that are all vastly different, live in total peace....Keep in mind that microbes haved waged 'wars' with each other for millions of years before organisms came about.

The answer is simple and fundamental. Cooperating and sharing is the key to survival. Not the darwinian of a dog eat dog world. We are what we are today because trillions of individual cells cooperate and share resources. If you consider humanity the highest form of evolution on the earth, consider the consequences of this revelation!

Imagine you are a cell in the body of Humanity. Imagine that each country is a vital organ or muscle in the body of Humanity. What the fuck are we doing to each other?

Originally Posted by juroara

Imagine you are a cell in the body of Humanity. Imagine that each country is a vital organ or muscle in the body of Humanity. What the fuck are we doing to each other?

nicely put, haha.

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

You defeat your own argument through irrationality.

35 to 150 species a day and yet only 875 species since 1500. That is obviously 500 years and given that you think that there are 35 to 150 a day then obviously you aren't working out the math.

Can't you read? Rofl

You have absolutely no knowledge about the subject, you said less than 100 species had died since 500 years ago, where did you even get the number.

Can you read this then.

875 SPECIES IN DOCUMENTED CASES HAS GONE EXTINCT SINCE YEAR 1500. THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE OBSERVED AND WITNESSED DIRECTLY.

THIS IS NOT THE REAL NUMBER THOUGH, DUE TO MANY FACTORS WE CANNOT DIRECTLY OBSERVE THE ACTUAL NUMBER OF SPECIES GOING EXTINCT EVERY DAY, PARTIALLY BECAUSE OF WE ONLY KNOW A FRACTION OF ALL SPECIES CURRENTLY IN EXISTENCE. WITH STATISTICAL, BIOLOGICAL AND MATHEMATICAL KNOWLEDGE VARIOUS SCIENTIST HAVE GIVEN CALCULATED ESTIMATES OF THE NUMBER OF SPECIES GOING EXTINCT EVERY DAY FROM 35 TO 150.

THIS IS INDEED MORE THAN THE BACKGROUND NUMBER, BECAUSE MOST OF THESE SPECIES LIVES IN ISOLATED ARES IN FOREST, THAT ARE CUT DOWN RUTHLESSLY, THIS IS CALLED DEFORESTATION.

I HOPE YOU CAN READ THIS, SO YOU DON'T EMBARRASS YOURSELF ANY MORE.

sigh.. happy new year.

Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia

Can't you read? Rofl

You have absolutely no knowledge about the subject, you said less than 100 species had died since 500 years ago, where did you even get the number.

I saw a site that only said 83. Are these 875 species ACTUALLY extinct? Or are they just on the threatened list?

Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia

[B]875 SPECIES IN DOCUMENTED CASES HAS GONE EXTINCT SINCE YEAR 1500. THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE OBSERVED AND WITNESSED DIRECTLY.

THIS IS NOT THE REAL NUMBER THOUGH, DUE TO MANY FACTORS WE CANNOT DIRECTLY OBSERVE THE ACTUAL NUMBER OF SPECIES GOING EXTINCT EVERY DAY, PARTIALLY BECAUSE OF WE ONLY KNOW A FRACTION OF ALL SPECIES CURRENTLY IN EXISTENCE. WITH STATISTICAL, BIOLOGICAL AND MATHEMATICAL KNOWLEDGE VARIOUS SCIENTIST HAVE GIVEN CALCULATED ESTIMATES OF THE NUMBER OF SPECIES GOING EXTINCT EVERY DAY FROM 35 TO 150.

Well if these cases go undocumented then how do you know it is 35 to 150? Arbitrary decision making of course.

Juroara, I was so glad to read your post. You expressed my thoughts too.

Most of the human race lacks great compassion. How foolish is the feeling of separation, and the ignorance of our responsibility for what we witness, as well as the ignorance of the power we have to change it. Things change at the moment one starts observing the world in connection and compassion.

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

Really? I'm making things up? You are postulating that +10,000 species die EVERY YEAR! In ten years that is +100,000 species. Do you know how unrealistic that number is?

Do you really think "that's just stupid" is a 'rational' argument, or are you just trolling?

Do you know how many different species there are on the planet?

Originally Posted by Xei

Do you really think "that's just stupid" is a 'rational' argument, or are you just trolling?

Do you know how many different species there are on the planet?

Clearly, appeal to this individual's rational is ineffective. When faced with the fallacious claim that around 100 different species of animals are dying everyday, do you honestly say 'Oh well that is believable'? This person practically did my job for me by claiming 875 species have died since 1500. Yes I understand that is only documented, however you have no way of knowing how many species have died that go 'undocumented.' The comment concerning 35 to +100 is based on that 'undocumented' projection. Discussions, debates, points of inquiry, whatever you wish to call what happens on these boards, are based on evidence and documentation, not wild speculation or arbitrary numbers. People obviously have a basis towards an argument but that doesn't mean you need to lose your sensibility and/or intelligence to discern what is actual factual.

I don't know what you're talking about any more. The range I gave was from biologists who work on this problem with mathematical methods, not wild speculation. Your claims have so far been based on 'it just sounds stupid'.

There could be as many as 100,000,000 different species on Earth so no, 100 a year is not intuitively incorrect.

Originally Posted by Xei

I don't know what you're talking about any more. The range I gave was from biologists who work on this problem with mathematical methods, not wild speculation. Your claims have so far been based on 'it just sounds stupid'.

There could be as many as 100,000,000 different species on Earth so no, 100 a year is not intuitively incorrect.

Exactly, wild speculation. These are undocumented cases. Do you honestly think they reside in the rain forest for extended periods at varying localities without bias? They go to one point, count the number of animals, then speculate by fallaciously applying their numbers to represent whole ecosystems. Think of it like voter polling. Polls only represent 1000 people yet some people think it is an accurate representation of +150,000,000 people. It is completely ridiculous.