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I am wondering what drives these desires, having never had a love for money or possessions. Well, maybe when I was a kid.
Is it the physical desire for gratification?
Or is it the social desire for status?
Or is it both?
And how would one tell if someone was building their empire for pleasure or for status?
I'm sure its both, but I'd say the status thing really fuels it. When I was a kid I used to ask adults (including my parents) how much money they made. Every one of them (including my parents) reacted with hostility, and never told me. I still don't really get why they do this but I guess it has to do with keeping their own status personal. Because it seems like people have a much harder time getting along if one's doing slightly better than the other.
We live in a consumer's world after all. A lot of the middle class works really hard, and make a lot more than they need to to get by. Seeing as most of us spend most of our lives making someone else rich, the whole empire thing is something to fall back on. Makes sense why people would take all this rubbish so seriously, I guess.
But I don't buy it.
A desire for purpose in a meaningless existence; patently so when you get to the ludicrous stage of spending money for the sake of spending it (sports cars, expensive art, etc.).
The desire for purpose drives most of human activity. Can you imagine a world where everything you wanted was provided without you having to work for it? What would you do with your entire life?
Thinking about that shows the irony of the whole thing; we create this artificial purpose of labour as a means to an end though when we think about it we don't really want to achieve the end; labour is in fact the end of labour.
All traces of those will lead to ego as the cause. All traces of ego leads to fear.
You meant to say psychological desire for gratification, right? Physical needs are only those biological ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Idolfan
We need to look a little deeper. Identification with the product, as in: this product is a part of who I am, it fits in my story, my joys and my pains, and I seriously can't see myself living without it... in fact, if I try, it hurts.
Of course, this hidden reason finds its way through all sorts of strongly conditioned thoughts, fake, destructive and irrelevant. There, I even managed to avoid the 'e' word.
So, regardless everyone's individual story and their precise reason for emotional compensation, consumerism is in its core driven by the same thing.
Explore space. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
I think it's a little of both. It would be nice to have nicer things than I do now, but I'd also like something to work for.
The story of stuff does a good job explaining how our present consumerism was designed, and forced on top of us without us knowing it
http://www.storyofstuff.com/
Materialism has been around for thousands of years, but consumerism is the present condition that's plaguing us. Materialism, as in the desire for material possessions isn't necessarily wrong or bad. But consumerism has us wanting or believing we need things that we don't actually want or need.
My sister watches a lot of house hunting shows, and the people on it make me dizzy and feel sick. People simply aren't really thinking WHY they want such a huge house. Why do they WANT giant living rooms when the only thing they end up doing in it is watching TV, which doesn't require a whole lot of space.
Or why do they want a giant master bedroom. Why? Why? I want a huge room but that's only because I actually use the space and turn it into my art studio. Every corner, every inch is used. I even push in my computer chair, and use the space on the floor for drawing. And I see these people who want these GIANT bedrooms....for what? To sleep in of course! I don't understand why bedrooms need to be so huge when all these boring people do in them is sleep.
Where is the desire for so much space coming from?
Sometimes I think these people want such giant homes is because they aren't getting enough fresh air and feel squished in. Go outside and take a damn walk! Space is precious............!
I see other people on these shows insisting that each of their child has their own bedroom. One mom who couldn't afford three extra bedrooms for her three children, gave the two bedrooms to her two toddler sons. And for her daughter, she had to sleep in a designated spot in the living room. How messed up is that?
Others go even further and insist that each child has their own bathroom. What's next? That each child gets their own living room so they don't fight over the TV?
Actually, I've already seen that :shock: DISGUSTING!
Misssingg thee pointttttttttttttQuote:
Originally Posted by Luanne
I very much do want to be rich when I'm older. Mainly because I won't have to worry about anything financial, I could help a lot of people and I could live out my fantasies(crazy massive house and flying car)
I second this, The Story of Stuff is great!Quote:
Originally Posted by juroara
I believe that the rampant materialism in the modern world (in the United States, at least) is partially the result of increasingly sophisticated and effective marketing campaigns. Advertising in the modern world is becoming more and more scientific, with companies funding millions of dollars worth of research to better understand what drives people to make purchases. They have discovered not only how to motivate you to purchase a product you don't need, but also how to insinuate a certain brand or product into your own sense of identity. It's powerful stuff, and people often take it for granted or are just not aware they are being manipulated so deeply.
Now, I am a believer in capitalism but at the same time I don't buy into the hyper-consumer culture that exists today. I try to stay abreast of the psychological tactics that advertisers use to motivate people to buy things they don't necessarily need, and thus insulate myself from their influence.
Simple things like hitting mute during commercial breaks (on the rare occasions I watch television programs), installing ad blockers in my Internet browsers and training myself to ignore the eyesores that are billboards have greatly reduced my unnecessary consumption over the years.
I still buy things, of course, but I don't find myself getting caught up in consumer hype as I used to when I was younger.
I've noticed a pattern of you saying this every time someone uses a simple explanation to show why your position is not necessarily correct. Perhaps you'd like to contribute more substantially?Quote:
Originally Posted by Carôusoul
The point was that through thought experiment we can deduce that the purpose of labour is not the result of labour but rather labour itself.
Not literally 'what would you do if you could do anything'.
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Originally Posted by Xaqaria
Euh, voila.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
Whenever i say just that, I figure it's so obvious I don't need to spell it out.
By the way, Carou, have you ever read about the Unabomber, or the Unabomber manifesto?
It's an extremely interesting subject. The manifesto's here:
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Indust...and_Its_Future
Some of it's probably very wrong but a large amount is incredibly perceptive. I'd been working on my own human philosphy for some time and when I saw it spelled out so lucidly I was pretty amazed by how similar my thoughts were.
Search for the paragraphs about 'goals', they're the ones most relevant to this.
I understand your point, but I think Luanne's response was a rather simple way to make the point that there are plenty of people who don't need to do meaningless work for someone else in order to validate their own existence. Some people will always find something worthwhile to do, especially if they don't also have to do something meaningless in order to survive. I took you saying "what would you do if you could do anything" as a way to point out that most people given the opportunity wouldn't know what to do and would end up doing nothing, which I don't believe is the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
Thank you, Xaqaria. You got it. :)
Xei, I even put a smiley and all... but still you took it as trivializing your opinions on post-scarcity or desire for purpose or whatever (which is really not the topic here). I'll then remind you of my answer in your own thread, but won't discuss it here, cause that would obviously go off-topic.
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=85137
Just to be on the safe side this doesn't get misinterpreted again:
See, I think this has nothing to do with causative essence of consumerism. 'Spending money for the sake of spending it' is just a phrase that doesn't explain anything.Quote:
A desire for purpose in a meaningless existence; patently so when you get to the ludicrous stage of spending money for the sake of spending it (sports cars, expensive art, etc.).
And once again, I can imagine a world where everything I wanted was provided without me having to work for it, because that would mean more quality life in presence, zen philosophy if you will, which would result in more observing and learning, therefore EXPLORING SPACE. :) :)
Sorry, I didn't mean to trivialise it. I'll respond properly in a bit. I'd suggest though that this is exactly what the thread is about; my opinion on the answers to his questions, anyway.
So what's stopping you from leaving the comfort of your home, trading all your cloths for potato sac robes and helping the unfortunate people around you? No offence, I just don't believe you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Idolfan
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Originally Posted by Idolfan
Safety.Quote:
Originally Posted by grasshoppa
You really believe everyone is a shopaholic? In last couple of months I bought boots after 3 years (only cause I had to) and a couple of empty CDs. (not including basics such as food, home bills, and I don't know - hair shampoo...) There are a whole lot of things I would like to enjoy all the time that require money, such as traveling, concerts, movies....but that means buying an experience, not a product (at least for a ticket buyer). It doesn't fall under a category: 'I want to have this! This is mine!'.
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Originally Posted by Luanne
I didn't say anything about shopaholics...nor do I care about your personal spendings.
You are very kind. As I wrote that to impress you?! Seriously?Quote:
Originally Posted by grasshoppa
Why don't you believe Idolfan? What is so hard to believe?
I'm with Xaqaria on this one, I think its you who missed the point! I agree with LuanneQuote:
Originally Posted by Carôusoul
Well our modern free-market based societies are all based on materialism. It forces us to become and stay materialistic. Surely our societies are modelled after our desires.
And material desire to some extent is nececairy for survival. (House, Food, Cattle, Land, Crops)
The way I see it, is that people just totally lost all perspective and lost themselves in the extremes of materialism. Materialistic desire has gone stampede and turned into obsession.
And having modelled our societies after that compulsive, out of control desire; greed, we now have ended up in a sort of Catch 22 where the system keeps forcing and shaping people to stay in this imbalanced, materialistic state.
Yes we innitially shaped our system, but we became materialistically obsessed and this obsession has made us a slave of our own device. Our system.
The system we people forged from unbalanced minds(Greed, Lust of power, and the resulting ignorant tunnelvision) and now generation after generation is being forged and shaped by this out of control system.
It's like a downward spiral. A circle of destructive behaviour and suffering.
It's mankinds bad habbits that are troublesome to break, because they've become so deeply conditioned into our minds.
If we are to break free from this behaviour we are to go to the core: Our minds. And we are to decondition our minds. Get rid of all these destructive beliefs, thoughts and feelings that are the cause of our destructive behaviour.
What luanne said was missing the point that Xei was trying to get across to here. It wasn't relevant to what he was saying. In that sense she missed his point.Quote:
Originally Posted by juroara
Xei's point was about everything being fulfilled, so I would have imagined he meant everywhere explored as well. Because the point was just that everything has been done. It's a hypothetical situation.
Wow... it's like a feeding frenzy in here!! :lol:
I'm a little afraid to say anything... somebody might jump all over my case...
But what the hell, here goes anyway ---
My personal solution to the materialist/consumerist merry-go-round most people seem to thrive on:
Rather than get a high-stress job with loads of prestige and money so you can afford a better car and a bigger house, I prefer to live a pretty humble life, making enough to pay the bills plus do what it is I love to do.
Which is stop motion animation. Wait... this is not completely irrelevant. See, the money s just to support the art... (not just hobby.. art). The art feeds the soul. Coming up with stories, and making stuff and filming it etc takes a lot of time and effort... it fills the hours where most people just watch TV or whatever... and gives a sense of direction and purpose. Live for art, do art to live. Prestige doesn't enter into it.
Damn... hope I'm not bleeding into the water anywhere.... :P
Yeah, that's exactly what I was saying (when I was evidently trying to impress the troll :chuckle: ); we live in a material world, almost everything requires money. But there is a difference between buying a new mobile phone that has one extra feature which you simply need to have, and buying a piano for the purpose of playing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkmatters
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Originally Posted by Luanne
To assume such a thing that would imply I have an interest in you. I assure you, that is not the case. But, to answer your question:Quote:
Originally Posted by Luanne
I don't believe Idolfan, because people who say they don't love money or possessions are just lying to themselves. You may not literally love money like you love a spouse, but you like to have it in order to acquire possessions that make you feel comfortable. If someone came into your house and stole your possessions you would undoubtedly be pissed off and want them back. Luckily, this void would be filled by more money, and more possessions. If he or anyone else who claims such a thing really didn't care about money or possessions they wouldn't go to school or get a job; they wouldn't have any interests or hobbies (because those generally cost money). Money also buys food and I don't see how anyone could not love food it's basically an instinctive love to ensure survival Since food is dependant on money you essentially love the money that gets you food.Quote:
Why don't you believe Idolfan? What is so hard to believe?
am readanQuote:
Originally Posted by Xei