Thread: The Hedonistic justification for capitalism

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

What are they, small children? What do you mean "what are we supposed to do?"

I mean they're fucked, think soup lines, Great Depression style.

Well to say "nobody is hiring" is a bit erroneous considering some industries flourish in recessions. You also assume they will not get jobs elsewhere.

Times are tough. In general, companies have either not been hiring or laying off for the last 2 years. Imagine if you add a couple hundreds of thousands of unemployed people into the mix all competing for LESS jobs. Say a quarter of them end up finding new employment, you're still left with a huge problem.

No because then you're prolonging the serious affects and the market corrections. Plus you're using other people's money. I have explained this multiple times.

Welfare is not going to go away. This is where the line is drawn between a realist and an idealist debate. Either you bail out the companies and workers still contribute to the GDP or you put them on welfare and they sit at home, either way the taxpayer chips in.

And you would be wrong to say the worse of the recession is behind us.

"The coyote catches a tree limb sticking off a cliff and MSNBC celebrates that he is no longer falling."

I'll have to get back to you on that in a year or two, then again the recession didn't hit Canada as bad as the US.

So you're advocating socialistic policies now?

Yes, if you bail out, then go the distance. Did you know that the current owners of GM are the US and Canadian governments? As owners... shouldn't they have a say in the company's practises?

Labor in the third world is cheaper because they are typically not developing on the same level as we are, I agree. But I am not only speaking about third world. I believe I said outside the country where better business opportunities may exist, leading to lower costs and efficiency than in the U.S. You are the one talking about the third world.

When you said cheaper I was thinking third world. Whenever you're looking for cheap "production line" style business, that's where you go...

For the time being yes. After the markets correct, businesses may return if an capital can be efficiently allocated here and the risk is good enough for them. For the time being they may find it better to expand outside the country. What I say to that is: good for the country getting the business. Their economy will be better for it.

Well if you don't mind your economy going down the gutter than alright... Maybe you'll change your mind when you're looking for a job.

What if they aren't willing to go live in the wilderness?

Then they should pay their taxes and vote.

And the social contract argument is so old and so fallacious. I never signed or agreed to any contract, nor did most people. Besides, the most important part of the social contract theory is that if a group or individual is not satisfied with the contract they may exit or abolish it. If you say "oh well that's stupid; they can't leave because they agreed to the social contract by living in our society" then I suggest getting some rest and think about how ridiculous that is.

Lets be realistic, taxes are not going to disappear. If you have a government, you have taxes. If this bothers you so much, there are a couple very rich, small, tax-haven countries in the world that I suggest you look into.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Schools should all be privatized any way.

Yea, let's have nothig but private schools. Fuck anyone who can't afford it.

Originally Posted by Supernova

Yea, let's have nothig but private schools. Fuck anyone who can't afford it.

Why do you rule out voucher programs? Why do you rule out private charities?

You ignored the rest of my post. What is your response to it?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Why do you rule out voucher programs? Why do you rule out private charities?

It looks like the average tuition per year for a private elementary school runs around $3-5000. I don't think that's something that charities can handle.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

It looks like the average tuition per year for a private elementary school runs around $3-5000. I don't think that's something that charities can handle.

That would go way down if all schools were privatized. Also, a ton more money would be given to charity if the tax burden were reduced enough.

What do you think of having a voucher system?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

That would go way down if all schools were privatized. Also, a ton more money would be given to charity if the tax burden were reduced enough.

What do you think of having a voucher system?

As in food stamps for schools? What exactly would you have to do to qualify for them?

And I'm pretty sure the price of tuition can't go down much more without compromising quality.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

I mean they're fucked, think soup lines, Great Depression style.

There is obviously not much anyone can do. Hard times are upon us. The focus now is to end the recession and make sure inflationary bubbles don't occur again because they always burst.

Times are tough. In general, companies have either not been hiring or laying off for the last 2 years. Imagine if you add a couple hundreds of thousands of unemployed people into the mix all competing for LESS jobs. Say a quarter of them end up finding new employment, you're still left with a huge problem.

That is the nature of recessions. But to say "NOBODY is hiring" is erroneous.

Welfare is not going to go away. This is where the line is drawn between a realist and an idealist debate. Either you bail out the companies and workers still contribute to the GDP or you put them on welfare and they sit at home, either way the taxpayer chips in.

I don't think you're grasping my point. Either you bail out the companies, which is essentially subsidizing failure in most cases, and you prolong the market corrections, leading to a larger and future crash. Or you do nothing, let the market correct, and return to some level of stability. I am not doubting that recessions/depressions suck and can be tough, but most of them are caused by government tinkering in the economy through various practices that lead to bubbles (20's, 90's), which lead to crashes (30's, 2007-present).

At first I didn't understand why you kept talking about welfare, but now I do. However I was talking about the notion of stealing other people's money via taxes to uphold a business that cannot survive. It's just wrong.

I'll have to get back to you on that in a year or two, then again the recession didn't hit Canada as bad as the US.

I wouldn't be surprised if the recession drags on for many more years, but who knows. It depends on how much more Uncle Sam wants to be involved.

Yes, if you bail out, then go the distance. Did you know that the current owners of GM are the US and Canadian governments? As owners... shouldn't they have a say in the company's practises?

The point is that they should not have become owners in the first place, along with various other reasons. State-run businesses never work. The fact that it is a socialistic policy is another reason. Read Ludwig von Mises' Socialism.

When you said cheaper I was thinking third world. Whenever you're looking for cheap "production line" style business, that's where you go...

Not necessarily. Why would you go to a third-world country which cannot produce as much? Suddenly it doesn't become so cheap.

Well if you don't mind your economy going down the gutter than alright... Maybe you'll change your mind when you're looking for a job.

If anything, me looking for a job would solidify my desire for the state to stop hampering the markets so companies would actually stick around.

Then they should pay their taxes and vote.

Would you force them to?

Lets be realistic, taxes are not going to disappear. If you have a government, you have taxes. If this bothers you so much, there are a couple very rich, small, tax-haven countries in the world that I suggest you look into.

So you're saying I should get up and leave just because you desire some ever-enforceable "social contract." Do you understand the social contract theory?

Originally Posted by Supernova

Yea, let's have nothig but private schools. Fuck anyone who can't afford it.

Strawman.

As a note about vouchers, I recall a few articles:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/voucher2.html
http://www.lewrockwell.com/yates/yates58.html
http://mises.org/econsense/ch43.asp
http://mises.org/article.aspx?Id=1399

I think that farmers bring a lot of happiness to people, but they make little and often end up in debt....
Same with construction workers and manufacturing plant workers. I think it would be hard to be happy without food, structure, or technology.

Instead of paying for what we need, we would much rather pay for what we want. IMHO Entertainment should NOT be payed more than life essentials, just seems retarded to me.