Deceased father is back and wants to buy 10 cows

**jwtm** · 12-20-2017 03:47 AM

I am posting on behalf of my boyfriend who is aware I'm posting for him.

BACKGROUND: My (now) boyfriend and I have known each other my whole life. He is 66 years old and I am 40. We went to the same small town family church. Three years ago we were serving on the church board together when he was going through a separation and eventual divorce. He and I were accused of having an affair (which we did not) and eventually we both left the church. This is a VERY small church where most people are family and no one from the church speaks to us at all anymore, including his family, nor did anyone ask us about the alleged affair, they just accused. About a year ago he and I started talking again through mutual friends (who were also church members, but left as well) and a few months ago we started to actually date. We had kept our dating quiet until just today when we told those friends. They were happy for us, but the reason we have been keeping it quiet is because we don't know how to "go public" without everyone thinking the affair was real. His adult children are also a concern because they were not happy about the (really ugly and messy) divorce to begin with and now he has to tell them he's dating someone they grew up with, went to high school with and was accused of having an affair with...difficult.

Sorry about that but ---I THINK--- it could be helpful in interpreting the dream.

THE DREAM: Last night he dreamt that he was in church (this is a church he has been in before in real life, however it is not our home/family church. It is, however the church belonging to his ex-wife and her family). As the service ended he turned around and saw his father about three pews behind him. (His father has been dead for 25 years). His father was dressed in a suit (in real life he'd wear a suit coat but in the dream he was wearing a three piece suit and "dressed to the nines") and looked really healthy and vibrant. He remembers his dad standing "so straight and tall" which really stood out to him even though in life he stood straight and tall. His father appeared to be in his 30's (his father passed away when he was 71 years old and my boyfriend was 41). My boyfriend said, "Dad, what are you doing here?" His father responded, "I have to buy 10 cows". It was a happy, matter of fact statement. My boyfriend responded, "Well, you're dead, you'd be 95!" His dad said matter-of-factly, "I'm 33". My boyfriend then said, "The farm is gone dad. Where are you going to put 10 cows?" (they had a farm in real life which was right next door to our home church, and it is now sold in real life). His dad responded, "I bought a place". "Where?" he asked. "On Center Valley road just west of Meade Street". My boyfriend answered, "That's CJ's place" and then the dream ended. (Center Valley Road just west of Meade Street is a real place just down the road from our home church. It is owned by CJ who is a real person who went to our church and was a good friend to us both and a fellow board member...AND one of the people who will no longer speak to us. Her husband passed away about 6 months ago, but she is NOT selling her farm.

EMOTIONS: During the dream the only emotions he felt were surprise and confusion because he knew his dad was dead. The other thing that REALLY stood out to him was how straight and tall his dad was standing. However, in real life he did stand straight and tall.

OTHER INFO: He has not dreamed of his dad before this. They had a really close, great relationship. His mother passed away 10 months ago and he dreamed of her about 3 weeks ago. Their relationship was good and they lived next door to each other, however the last 3 years she was very upset with him about getting divorced and changed her will, etc. His only sibling, a sister, passed away about 10 years ago. They were close and also lived next door to each other. The rest of his family will not speak to him except his three kids, but their relationships are also strained because of the divorce and all the accusations. He and I have a very open, honest and loving relationship. I'm sure some of you will question it because of the allegations and the age difference, but I can honestly say we care for and love each other deeply. We are very happy and have a lot of fun together. Most of my family are aware of our relationship and approve.

NOW THE REALLY WIERD PART: Remember the couple from church we met with today and told we started dating? The wife says, "I had the strangest dream about 2 weeks ago. I was buying CJ's farm. I didn't want to talk to her because I'm still upset about the way she treated you guys at church but I had to because I really wanted to buy her farm".

I'm sorry this was so long but I hope all you dream geniuses have the info you need to help us interpret this dream. I can't help but feel as though his dad was trying to send him a message, although I could be way off. Any help at all would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

**Athanor** · 12-20-2017 11:39 PM

This is, of course, a very difficult situation that you’ve described, and your boyfriend’s dream appears to be trying to show certain key elements of it, albeit in symbolic terms which can very be hard to decipher. The fact that you’ve been so thorough in clearly explaining the background information goes a long way in allowing a more accurate interpretation to be made. However, the following ideas should still be taken as only a tentative point of view regarding what his dream is trying to say.

In addition, there are a few potentially important gaps in what you’ve outlined such as the nature of the problem that led to your boyfriend’s divorce although, of course, this is of a very personal nature and it’s very understandable if it was omitted. A description of your boyfriend’s recent dream of his mother might also have been helpful, especially since, until the dream you’ve described, he had apparently not dreamt of his dad for twenty-five years. Also, a fuller description of CJ could have been useful since she plays the important role of having sold her farm to your boyfriend’s dad in the dream. In any case, the overall context for his dream has been very thoroughly presented, and this is always important to have when interpreting a dream.

The dream opens with your boyfriend sitting in a church that his ex-wife and family belonged to (notably as opposed to the one you and he were members of). While it would be helpful to have your boyfriend’s spontaneous memories, thoughts and feelings about the image of this church in his dream, in general terms a church symbolizes a “spiritual place” as opposed to a “material place”. This could be suggesting that the specific church in question somehow touches on various specific “spiritual questions” and dilemmas as related to the “soul”, “one’s purpose in life”, “conscience”, “higher authority”, “the hereafter” and so on. It’s also a “communal” place with all that implies as related to dealing with others in the local group. This can be an especially problematic state of affairs in an apparently small rural community such as yours which, of course, never really fit in with a kind of Norman Rockwell/Currier and Ives imagery of “ideal” country areas.

So because the church is his ex-wife’s, there could possibly be some issues which are bothering your boyfriend regarding his relationship with her and with the eventual divorce, although he might be mostly unaware of any such problem.

The key image in the dream is, of course, how your boyfriend is confronted with the image of his deceased dad, albeit in the form of a thirty-three year old. Generally speaking, the famous psychiatrist Carl Jung left it as an open question as to whether the image of a close deceased relative in a dream was in effect the spirit of that person, or a representation of the continuing “living effect” which the person had on the dreamer, or whether it might be a combination of both.

In any case, it does seem very significant that a dream about his dad has appeared for the first time in the twenty-five years since the latter’s death. Also, his dad appears in the church connected with your boyfriend’s ex-wife but apparently he made no attempt to sit with his son. This maybe suggests the idea of some kind of semi-support of the dream-dad for his daughter-in-law although the latter is apparently not there.

The fact that his dad appears “behind” your boyfriend likely means symbolically that he could be mostly unaware of, or have forgotten, certain influences his dad had on him, perhaps especially ones related to the need to be “upright” (e.g. the image of his dad standing “straight and tall”, which was an actual trait, and which is especially emphasized by the dream). “How one looks in the group” is also stressed in that his dad is “dressed to the nines”.

One way of approaching an interpretation of the overall conversation that follows could be that perhaps it’s emphasizing the idea of a man who is sort of “denying his age”, e.g. his dad looks like and is acting as if he’s thirty-three instead of “ninety-five”. He’s bought a farm and wants to buy ten cows as if he’s “just starting out in life”. So it could be that your boyfriend’s dream is reminding him that he’s sixty-six years old and is moving closer to very strongly affecting the life of a forty-year old woman.

In such a situation, it’s possible that the dream is cautioning him to slow down and to consider how this could affect your life in that you’d be put in the middle of an already very difficult state of affairs with his children, let alone any continuing “shunning” by the overall group you’re in, assuming that you’ll both continue to live in the area in the future. And of course there’s the unknown and difficult issue of his health and its affect on you, a much younger woman, if it should decline unexpectedly in only a few years after he turns seventy for example.

It’s also probably significant that your boyfriend had this dream and then the supportive couple arrived shortly after. In your conversation with them, you revealed that you’re dating and the woman told of her dream about wanting to buy CJ’s farm which, in your boyfriend’s dream, CJ had sold to his dad. The presence of the sale of the farm in both dreams (especially because CJ doesn’t plan on selling the farm in real life) points to what’s called a “synchronistic event” or more simply, a “meaningful coincidence”.

It can be a little hard to understand at first, but the earlier dream of your friend didn’t “cause” your boyfriend to have his dream where the sale of the farm is also mentioned (that is, there’s no usual “cause and effect” idea involved). Instead, the two dreams are connected by “meaning”, and the unusual coincidence has caused both you and your boyfriend to sit up and take notice about this “sale of the farm” idea and to maybe want to interpret the meaning behind this unusual incident.

One way to do this might involve looking at the fact that, in your boyfriend’s dream, his dad went ahead and bought CJ’s farm while presumably knowing full well that CJ was an “enemy” of his son. All the same, he was “going to start out in the farming business come hell or high water”, regardless of the “reality” of his son’s situation regarding the seller of the farm and of his own “advanced age”.

The farm could represent, for example, CJ’s “stake in the community”, her “place” in the context of her neighbors and their farms. Her initial possession of it could therefore partly symbolize in the dreams her firm stand against you and your boyfriend which is apparently shared by most people in the community. If so, your boyfriend’s dad in the dream (and by implication, your boyfriend himself) could be shown as wanting to “have it all”, “to be young again and starting out fresh” (in your boyfriend’s case by having a relationship with a much younger woman) while at the same time maintaining an accepted “stake in the community” and an “appropriate status and reputation”, i.e. by ignoring CJ’s attitude towards his son and by buying CJ’s farm. So it could be that from the dream’s point of view, any such hope or belief etc. on the part of your boyfriend about “starting out again” and “maintaining an appropriate status” in the community in which he actually finds himself might not really be realistic in the long run.

And because your female friend is among the few in the community who support the relationship between you and your boyfriend, it might be possible that her dream is revealing that secretly, there is something in her also that wishes she too could still be “part of the community” as symbolized by her desperately wanting to buy CJ’s farm while at the same time hating herself for even talking with her. Of course, without knowing anything much about your friend, this approach to her dream can only be a general speculation. In any case, I think that you can see a lot also hinges on the interpretation of the farm in these dreams, so you and your boyfriend could possibly mull over together possible ideas about its personal meaning to both of you by seeing which spontaneous memories and thoughts about it come to mind.

Anyway, I’m afraid that this interpretation probably sounds way too confusing, but hopefully, if you read it over a few times and gradually think about it over time, it can turn out to be helpful in some way to both your boyfriend and yourself.

In any case, please make any comments or ask any questions about this interpretation that you’d like to.

**jwtm** · 12-21-2017 12:55 AM

Wow...Athanor, thank you for your response! You have some amazing insights. I have a few questions for you and I think I can clear up some of your questions as well.

What led to the divorce: As he describes it, they've had problems in their marriage from very early on and he said he was never actually in love with her. Not really wanting to be married to each-other, but the stigma of a divorce always got in the way. Some examples: She was catholic before converting to our religion, and the catholic religion puts a negative spin on divorce. Also, his mother didn't like the thought of what other people would think of him if he got divorced and said, "Well I didn't love your father either, but I stayed with him until he died". It was easy for them to deal with the problems throughout the marriage until retirement age when they were both home and couldn't really avoid each other and not wanting to do things with each other. It became a very lonely life for him. He admits that our time spent on the church board together did spark this as he had feelings for me, but adamantly states that divorce was always on his mind, with nothing to really propel him forward. During the separation phase he learned a lot about her that solidified his decision to go through with it (her desire for money and material things, her willingness to lie to people about him to make herself look better, the way she treated people, the way she immediately turned his family against him, etc). Of course this is his view point - I'm sure she has another.

Neither he nor I can remember the details of the dream with his mother. We both know there wasn't anything negative about it or any negative feelings about it.

CJ - she is a very prominent member of the church. One of the women that we would say "runs the church". She is older in her 70s but has a very young demeanor and acts like she's in her 50's. She was one of my favorite people at the church until this all happened and when her husband passed away very unexpectedly I did talk to her. I'm not sure what else to say about her except that she has always been the type of person to say, "It's none of my business what other people do" and therefore it was very surprising and upsetting that she did not speak to my boyfriend or I about this situation before coming to a conclusion.

The church in the dream - he doesn't have any negative thoughts of the church, nor positive ones. To him it's just a nice church he's been to before. In the dream itself it did not seem out of place for him to be there and there was no focus on any other people there so he has no idea if he was with anyone else or not, but it seemed he was there alone. The only other thing he mentions is that this church is not his "ideal" place of worship as what we were brought up in is a very relaxed christian atmosphere with lots of singing and fun.

I'm sure there are still issues that are bothering him about his ex-wife, however he says there are none. The divorce has been final for some time now. Mainly what concerns him in this matter is that she still continues to put him down to other people and his kids. (How people view him is important to him).

Regarding his dad, he has no opinion on whether or not this was his dad's spirit or "living effect". I, however, feel quite strongly that it was his father's spirit. I am BLOWN AWAY by your interpretation of his dad in church not sitting next to him (therefore supporting the ex-wife) and standing straight and tall/how one looks in the group. It is not something I thought of and seemingly doesn't bode well for me if he's supporting the ex and worried about appearances, but your insight is greatly appreciated and probably accurate.

Our age difference is definitely something we've discussed and continue to discuss. We know it will effect us as he ages. My grandfather married a woman 25 years younger and they are still happily married, but i can see how it affects them. He is and always has been someone who looks and acts much younger than he is and everyone who knows him says this. I have always been someone who acts and looks older. My children are grown and I have grandchildren older than his grandkids. So on the surface we have a lot in common and our age difference is not so prominent, but yes...it is definitely a reality that we are both aware of.

Your next statements confuse me a bit. When talking about his dad buying CJ's farm are you saying that he's standing up for himself and buying the farm anyway even though it belongs to an "enemy" of his son (and therefore in support of his son)? Or are you saying that by buying the farm he's NOT supporting his son's decisions regarding divorce and relationship with me? Sorry, but that one confused me a bit.

The friend who had a dream about buying the same farm. You are spot on in that she would like to still be a part of that church community. She was "shunned" for a completely different reason, but in getting the same treatment as us came to the realization that this church community and it's people were not at all in line with what her view of christian people should represent. That said she has a very hard time letting go of the past, is very angry and upset with the people there, but does still long for a similar community.

CJ's farm has zero personal meaning for me. I have never been there. To him it's always been the "wealthy" farm in the neighborhood. It's still an active farm and was being run by CJ and her husband (in their 70's) prior to his death. It's well maintained and produces much. The only other thing I would say on this topic is that he and I both have dreams about buying land and building a home on non-working farmette. This is something else we have in common and he is actively looking for land, but hasn't found the right place yet. I am looking for land as well, but I'm being quite picky about it. If our relationship continues for awhile then it might be something we do together, but we have only been dating a short time so it's not something we've discussed except to share with one another our dreams of owning land/woods.

Again... I can't thank you enough for your help! I hope my responses have helped you in return!

**jwtm** · 12-21-2017 05:57 AM

One other thing... he said the "10 cows" really sticks out to him. Meaning it was really emphasized that he wanted to buy 10 cows, not "some cows", "a cow" or any other number of cows. He says he doesn't know how to explain it because it wasn't like it was verbally emphasized in the dream, but it sticks with him as it's important.

**Athanor** · 12-21-2017 11:39 PM

Hi again,

I’m happy to have provided a few ideas that seem to fit the situation of your boyfriend and yourself. The additional information that you’ve provided also seems to support the general approach of the interpretation overall.

For example, the very bitter circumstances surrounding the divorce which came late in life to your boyfriend naturally struck a sharp, hard blow to his self-esteem at a vulnerable age. This was made worse by the reaction of the community to your relationship with him. Symbolically then, it’s possible that in the dream he finds himself in his ex-wife’s church because it could indirectly be symbolic of the very vicious aspects of her behavior regarding the divorce (as believed to be so by your boyfriend).

The idea is that unconsciously (i.e. “behind” him in the church), certain very strong wishes have been stirred up (i.e. as symbolized by his father) as related to wanting to have his status and regard in the community (which have been brutally attacked by his ex-wife) to be fully restored. To clarify further, these ideals of “obtaining and maintaining a good standing in the community” were instilled by and apparently doggedly lived out by his father as well during the latter’s life. This possibly could also mean that some hidden part of your boyfriend feels ashamed that he has “let down his father and his ideals” in this regard.

The dream could be showing that any such state of mind which would concentrate on the full restoration of outer-world-related concerns would not really be appropriate in your boyfriend’s current overall circumstances. This is hinted at in his feeling that the church in the dream is not his "ideal" place of worship. That is, a certain unconscious but unwavering determination to “build up his status again” (as potentially symbolized by his father’s buying a farm and “starting out” again in effect as a young man) could be contrary to the spirit of his “own church”, that is, one with a more relaxed Christian atmosphere “with lots of singing and fun”. Maybe the idea includes his need to “forgive and forget” as well as possible what’s happened in order to get closer to the real sense of Christianity which you mentioned. The fact that your boyfriend to some extent seems to play down having any resentments etc. about what his ex-wife is continuing to do regarding the divorce could partly underlie the appearance of the dream which in effect could apparently be saying something like “Oh yes, you DO care and this might cause you to make some errors in judgment!”

Having any such unconscious inner determination to “make things right again” as if he had all the strength and years to do so (as possibly symbolized by his father in the dream actually being “ninety-five” but acting like a thirty-three year old) could in effect be one such potential “error in judgment”. That is, his relationship with you could somehow be adversely affected by being in any such “harsh church-of-his-wife’s” mode as opposed to his usual lighter attitude.

This could be the symbolic explanation of his father in the dream indirectly supporting the “enemies” of his son; that is, maybe if your boyfriend tends to become too determined to right things about the divorce and community situations, this could sort of symbolically keep your boyfriend “tied to” his negative ex-wife and to “CJ” as a kind of symbolic “staunch representative of two-faced members of the community” who in part value outer success and wealth too much in spite of their Christian professions of faith.

From what you said, it’s also clearer about the “meaningful coincidence” involving your female friend who you describe as also wanting to desperately become part of a “community”. That’s because her dream therefore even more clearly resonates with and probably mirrors the same possibility of an “error in judgment” being made if she allows an attitude similar to your boyfriend’s (as apparently described by his dream) to take her over as well.

Of course, you mentioned how your boyfriend’s always been someone who looks and acts much younger than he is, so breaking a habit of mind where he sees himself as always being young might be very hard to break.

As to the 10 cows, your boyfriend has mentioned how this number of cows stood out to him in the dream. Any such sense of an emphasis being made by a dream is important although the specific symbolism can still be difficult to then unravel. To help in this, I think it’s safe to say that this dream is what’s called an “archetypal” one; that is, a dream that comes from the very deep layers of the psyche at important transitional points in a person’s life. Such dreams are characterized by very-far-from-reality images such as in your boyfriend’s dream where his deceased but very young and vibrant dad appears.

So the nature of the transition that your boyfriend is facing (as I’ve touched on at various times) is likely the movement from “being young” to an acceptance of “being old” and what that implies overall. This type of dream (which often start spontaneously appearing even when we’re still young at around age thirty-five) is called a “Memento mori” dream, Latin for “Remember that you must die”. Such dreams will tend to appear again at various times over the years. In the context of your boyfriend’s age and his difficult situation regarding his divorce and the community at large, it makes a lot of sense that this type of dream should appear at this time in order to help him make the right decisions on how to spend his remaining “time on earth” as it were, which could still be many decades. Generally speaking, there can be a need to develop aspects of ourselves which understandably had to be put aside in the hurly-burly of work and raising a family.

However, it’s a question of emphasis as opposed to stopping certain types of activities and interests etc. cold in their tracks. Instead, for example, a person can try thinking back to something they once liked doing but had to give up because there was no time to develop it properly. This activity etc. could then be blended in more often with one’s everyday life in order to help round out the person’s overall wholeness of personality over time. To explore this idea further, you might like some books by James Hollis who has written extensively about how to make the best of the second half of life. In any case, the idea could be that your boyfriend might be better off if he were to use his energy to work at some different parts of himself that would provide a meaningful sense of accomplishment over time.

But getting back to the cows, because this is an archetypal dream, we can draw on the parallels provided by ancient myths, stories, beliefs and art etc. in order to explore their possible meaning in your boyfriend’s dream. This is because similar ideas and beliefs etc. spontaneously appear in the dreams of modern people. For example, a cow over the ages has usually been thought of as a basic “mother” symbol. However, this idea of “mother” includes the idea of “Mother Nature” herself. Briefly, an important example is found in the Egyptian myth of how the sun-god Ra climbs on the back of the “Heavenly Cow” to ride away into the darkness. This movement is meant to symbolize that he is going back into the womb of “Mother Nature” in order to reborn again as Horus, god of the sky. A deeper symbolic meaning that this myth describes is the overall cycle of life, death and rebirth. In the morning, the Heavenly Cow is the mother, at noon she is the sister-wife, and at evening she is once more the mother who takes back the dead into her womb to be reborn again.

Number symbolism in dreams can be very complicated, but generally speaking, the number 10 is related to a return to “unity” or “wholeness”. This traditionally has been viewed as something that occurs after physical death where the person is returned to the wholeness of the universe or God. Also involved in this process is a kind of “reckoning” as to whether the person achieved “redemption”. The latter is generally viewed as being possible only through non-material life pursuits which achieve a certain level of value.

In your boyfriend’s dream, perhaps the meaning of the 10 cows is that there could currently be too much of a leaning towards the “material” or “worldly” aspect of your boyfriend’s state of mind. In dream language, this is hinted at by the number or “multiplicity” of the cows and buying a farm late in life; i.e. the idea could be that this is “just the beginning” of obtaining “even more cows” instead of moving from “10” back to “1” and the security of potential rebirth being possible by entering the one “Heavenly Cow”. This would be done through getting back to an approach related to the gradual reflection on and preparation for death as being a new beginning. It could be that other dreams about this issue might appear which would tend to clarify it in more Christian terms, especially if your boyfriend could find an actual church where he would feel comfortable.

In any case, I hope these additional ideas can be helpful, and please don’t hesitate to ask any other questions you might have.