Not for those who cannot follow a thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowie
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Not for those who cannot follow a thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowie
Fair enough, forgive me for my inferior intellect, but if you want to make a statement, which you seem to want, why phrase it as a question?
When I go out to eat, I do not demand that the cook be responsible for my ability to digest the food.
However, it is not the first time you have heard it said, "If a man commit adultery in his mind, . . . " it is a simple psychological fact. Perception determines conception, conception determines will.
Secondly, can you say the dream image is not a real person, but you are having sex with it? Is sex defined in terms of non-realities? hello?
There is no use for the cook to let me fillet my own fish, with the chance of butchering it in the process. It would make neither me nor the cook happier.
I personally prefer to rely on scientific research rather than biblical verses to provide me information on psychological facts. I simply do not believe that you can ignore or discard factors like emotion, psychological disorder, social control, and so forth in this matter, and conclude that perception will eventually lead to will.
So, the fact that we learn by experience is non-scientific myth. Or what do you think perception determines conception, conception determines will means? Or in a metaphor, the father, the son, and the holy spirit are one?
Really scientific you are when you cannot even manage the language you profess to think in.
Yes, you are intelligent. It was the prophets who were idiots--the very same prophets who once wrote that you could learn virtue through lucid dreaming as a matter of fact. You can call us both idiots then.
Lucid dreams are whatever the dreamer wants them to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philosopher8659
I don't know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philosopher8659
Thoughts don't determine behavior, decisions do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philosopher8659
We don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philosopher8659
People are naturally sane. I think the book "Dianetics: The Evolution of a Science" and the ones after it would be relevant to your interests.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philosopher8659
So if you were put in a real-life situation the same as the game you would want the same thing? A story is a story. Even in RPGs where you play a bad guy is something completely different. If you say to yourself, "I will play a bad guy because it makes for an interesting story" yeah, ok, fine. But to play a game as the bad guy simply because you want to do bad things, yeah that is a bit wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowie
You are incorrect when you say we can't decide our desires. Can we stop all the bad ones coming into our mind? No, we can't. People are broken like that. But we can shoo them away, we can not feed them by dwelling on them.
Look this all comes down to if you believe that evil is simply and only an act. I do not. A two year old who hits a child doesn't have a sense of right and wrong, or even empathy. A machine that mangles the arm of a factory worker cannot have a sense of right and wrong and never will. Do we call either of them evil or wrong? Of course not, because they don't understand the concept. They don't have a choice. When someone does something wrong it is not just the act that is wrong, it is wrong because they knew what right and wrong was, and chose wrong.
There seems to be a belief that your imagination should be some sort of speakeasy as far as morality. That it doesn't apply because its not real. It is true that its no where as near bad as actually doing bad things, but are you to remain a good person only when there are others about you? Only when you don't have omnipotent powers and are a part of the general public? Imagination IS part of the person, and it can affect them. Sometimes in large ways sometimes in small. You can see that with any child who wanders out in the dark and becomes frightened at all the things he conjures in his head, or the person who works themselves into a rage at slights that may or may not have actually been there.
In psychology--emotion is a given. One learns how to apply a form over emotion, rationality, forms that we abstract from the environment and encode into a language system.
This is the distinction that Plato made, doing as we please, and doing as we will. Thus, virtue can be learned--as logic is a form but psychologic is the application of logic shaping emotion into rational behavior. In order to effect this change, emotion is pitted against emotion in the form of mythology. Secondary learning is the replacement of mythology with reality.
No. But not everything we experience, for example in dreams, will lead to us wanting to do the same in real life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philosopher8659
What I think you mean by this is that the perception, or (sensory) experience, of events and sensations will determine what people think about and what ideas they have, and these thoughts and ideas will determine what actions people will perform. I personally do not think you can approach all behaviour through a simplified model like this. I don't really see where you are going with the christian trinity metaphor.Quote:
Or what do you think perception determines conception, conception determines will means? Or in a metaphor, the father, the son, and the holy spirit are one?
What language exactly do I profess myself to think in? Please tell me, I'd like to know.Quote:
Really scientific you are when you cannot even manage the language you profess to think in.
Thank you, I am flattered. I do not call you an idiot, as a matter of fact I do not even think of you as an idiot. I just disagree with you. And I don't believe in prophets either. Even if I did, why would I want to call these prophets you speak of idiots, if I disagree with one thing they said?Quote:
Yes, you are intelligent. It was the prophets who were idiots--the very same prophets who once wrote that you could learn virtue through lucid dreaming as a matter of fact. You can call us both idiots then.
Do not worry, what happens is a projection of your subconscious. Every action, scenario, or whatever, is based off your expectations and feelings.Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffreydc
To the guys getting constantly rejected, just have a little confidence. Girls in my dreams are more than happy to go have some private time.
No, I would not do the same thing, that is my whole point. I have the ability to make a distinction between real life and imagination. And I disagree with your last point, I do not think it is wrong to play a bad guy to do bad things. In fact, I believe it can be an outlet for certain people.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteKnight
This is similar to what I was saying. I think that we can not control which desires we have, but we have the ability to ignore them and not let them lead to actions.Quote:
You are incorrect when you say we can't decide our desires. Can we stop all the bad ones coming into our mind? No, we can't. People are broken like that. But we can shoo them away, we can not feed them by dwelling on them.
As long as a person is able to make a clear distinction between right and wrong, and imagination/dream and reality, I truly see no harm in imagining or dreaming about immoral or unethical acts. If a person is not able to fully distinguish reality from fantasy or dreaming, and starts to act on his fantasies, which he might have experienced in dreams, in real life, I'd say it is dangerous for a person like this to deliberately dream about these acts. But for the majority of the population who are able to make these distinctions, I think it is perfectly safe.Quote:
Look this all comes down to if you believe that evil is simply and only an act. I do not. A two year old who hits a child doesn't have a sense of right and wrong, or even empathy. A machine that mangles the arm of a factory worker cannot have a sense of right and wrong and never will. Do we call either of them evil or wrong? Of course not, because they don't understand the concept. They don't have a choice. When someone does something wrong it is not just the act that is wrong, it is wrong because they knew what right and wrong was, and chose wrong.
There seems to be a belief that your imagination should be some sort of speakeasy as far as morality. That it doesn't apply because its not real. It is true that its no where as near bad as actually doing bad things, but are you to remain a good person only when there are others about you? Only when you don't have omnipotent powers and are a part of the general public? Imagination IS part of the person, and it can affect them. Sometimes in large ways sometimes in small. You can see that with any child who wanders out in the dark and becomes frightened at all the things he conjures in his head, or the person who works themselves into a rage at slights that may or may not have actually been there.
Theres some insight in these posts, but the way they're presented shows that there is a lack of communication skill. Drop the act; sounding like yoda doesn't make you smarter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philosopher8659
There's really nothing to come of this. He was in a dream which is projected by his subconscious. Its not often you walk up to a girl, grab her hand, and have sex with her and she's all down for it. This is where he began to worry, and began to doubt that the girl would really want to do this. And as any lucid dreamer would know, this will be reflected in the dream.Quote:
Really scientific you are
So the emotion he felt was being portrayed by the dream character. I bet if he was more comfortable with dream sex the girl would've been more than willing.
Well, I am too stupid to comprehend "concious of the subconsious" (projected by his subconscious) thingy.
And I apologize for my concise statements, I am rather thin.
I just happen to see the same information many times if it be said with a lot of wind or not, in a metaphor or not, for example
perhaps sometime in the future I will write to please your arrogance
and
who in the fuck do you think you are to tell me how to express myself.
both have the same conceptual content,
Yes but I don't just stop at not acting on my desires, I believe that a conscious effort should be made not to have them (we are going to fail, but it is the effort that is important) and we should defiantly not feed them, meaning, continue to dwell on them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowie
Basically you and I are hitting up against on central question and that is "Is our imagination excluded from morals and ethics?" We have two different beliefs on that and will just be dancing around it until two days from forever. One of us will have to change our view of this one central question before any more progress can be made. To put it simply, we've both debated. We've given our statements. Our final answers are different and we can go no further than that. We're played out. (at least this is how I see it)
However, we can agree that what he did is not as bad as doing the real thing. And that if it does make him uncomfortable, or he comes to believe that it is immoral, he can change it because he has a choice and it is his dream. Right?
Whether either one of our sides (or maybe neither) are true will have to be up to him.
Truth is independent of man. Since all one can do in any language system is establish and maintain a convention of names, the rest, the syntax and all is determined by reality, the statement is self-evident.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteKnight
OR, in my yoda fashion; Predication is the inverse function of abstraction.
It is one of the most basic realizations on what truth is and how to maintain it.
In a metaphor, we say what we see, or in the words of a wise man,
We testify to what we have seen, and speak of what we have known. (or something like that)
Are you that sensitive? Present yourself how you want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philosopher8659
Honestly I think you have some quite insightful things to say about the topic, but your 'style' is harshly communicated.
We certainly can. If he feels uncomfortable or guilty with what he did, he should not do it again. I believe there is no reason for him to feel guilty, but that is something else entirely.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteKnight
I have machined close to 600 engine blocks today, I have a lot of times to be harshly concise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rathez
Dream characters are basically your mind's projections. They're not real. You're basically having sex with yourself (which doesn't sound that pleasant, but hey), so I wouldn't worry about it. Lots of people do it in dreams.
I knew a thread would come up like this eventually.
Let me tell you... I have killed many people in dreams... beat the crap out of them.... even killed myself. I respawned after being in a White Void.
I have also shared dreams with other people. There are many confirmed cases of this from others' dream journals, and many accounts of this in written history.
So, can other people in your dreams be real?
Yes.
It could be a DC, a manifestation of your own imagination, or it could be another dreamer.
Firstly, let me tell you the way to tell the difference:
A DC will disappear if you ignore them. A real person will still be there. Also DC's often talk gibberish, or act like idiots, because your mind is not powerful enough to have a meaningful conversation with itself.
****
So, if you beat the crap out of another dreamer in a dream, they will have a dream of being beat up.
If you kill another dreamer, they will get killed in their dream, but not in waking life.
If you rape another dreamer they will have a dream of being raped.
***
If you rape a DC, it's like raping yourself.
***
That being said, we are talking about lucid dreams here. Sometimes when people suffer trauma, they will have non-lucid dreams of doing what was done to them, as a way of their subconscious trying to understand the person who scarred their psyche. This is a dream that is created by your own mind. You should not feel guilty about doing something weird in a non-lucid dream. I beat the crap out of people all the time in non-lucid dreams as a way to deal with anger, and the violence I suffered as a kid.
***
So, should you rape people in dreams?
There are no laws in dreams. It's the Wild Wild West.
But, karma's a bitch.
You wouldn't want a dream about Marv scraping your face off.... would you?
http://static.blogstorage.hi-pi.com/...-City-Marv.JPG
Concise doesn't mean more effective though. You can be more concise by throwing in tons of jargin and terms , but then the message won't be properly decoded.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philosopher8659
Anyways, back on topic? The OP most likely just had a confliction between his morals and the 'do anything you want' nature of a dream. I drive my car through crowds of people in video games and laugh as they roll over the windshield. You don't see me doing this in real life. But then again a video game is no where as realistic as a lucid dream, so this is probably why he had such a concern.
Considering its not real and he still felt like he had a moral obligation to treat the DC with respect shows a lot about his character. He's definitely no rapist.
Not trying to be the 'you cant prove it' nazi here, but I would like to hear experiences that make you believe this.Quote:
Originally Posted by WakingNomad
Shared dreaming is something I'm VERY interested in. I've read your topic on it but like any ambitious dreamer, I'm fiending for more information!
This incident sounds pretty harmless to me. It sounds like it was due to lack of dream control and fear of loosing lucidity. If you get better at dream control you will probably summon women to you who want to have sex. I wouldnt make a habit out of raping dream characters though because that might cultivate erotic feelings involving rape. In other words you might get into rape.
You are missing the point, the harm is not to what you imagine, but the effects upon your own mind, the enforcement or avoidance of irrational thought and behavior. At some time in your life you have to recognize that your eventual sanity has a lot to do with your own efforts. You partially express the idea and partially deny it. So you are in the middle. You choose which way you will travel by choosing your every action in life, or in a dream. When you desire to express your will, eventually you have to start looking for a standard by which to effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandonTyberius
That standard is independent of what you desire, and what appears to be.
Ok like wakingnomde said, people kill DC's all the time. Does that make you a murderer? Does that make the people you tell disgusted of you? No..... So why is raping someone in a lucid dream (key word there being dream) any different? It's all in their head. It's not like it's gonna manifest itself to the waking world. If anything I think LDing would help
prevent real world crimes from happing (I'm not implying that the thread creator will rape someone). Is it morally wrong? Hell no! If anything, it's right. It relieves the tension of stress and urges to do things like that in the real world, with real people.
Ps: I'm iPod touch, I'll fix any errors and missing names when get an actual keyboard in front of me, not this touch screen bull crap.