Read the Knights posts carefully, your question was answered.
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Read the Knights posts carefully, your question was answered.
If you raped someone in real life, you are a rapist.
If you raped someone in a dream (whether it be lucid or not), then you are not a rapist.
It's as simple as that.
I am sorry WhiteKnight, I have read this thread and I find your thoughts quite disturbing.
Bear with me please, I would like my opinion also to be heard.
First of all, I believe you are traditionally talking about instincts, it might be (and I believe it to be) repressed, suppressed or disowned qualitiy of the conscious self AND WE ALL HAVE IT!
We are all brutal rapists and many more, other horrible things, but the amazing fact is that it isn't nor bad nor good, it's just is the way it is, and people who go through their lifes denying it, find it to be some kind of curse, something that must be destroyed are very, very highly deluded.
And I can imagine many events during history when the suppression of these human needs and instincts were catastrophic.
Second of all, I think that LD and dreaming in general is a very natural, healthy way of releasing it, and you will have dreams, once in a while, where you do the most immoral things and it is the way it should be and is.
Finally, there is so much going on in the unconscious mind. It is a very ancient, very deep, complex construction, how can we ever claim to understand it?Do you truly think that switching on the logic center can really change how it works?
Don't worry. As long as you don't try to have some sexy time by force while you're NOT asleep, there's no problem. Unless you like guilt.
I, for one, don't bother myself with the details like what "they" want. In my dreams I'm God. They are a part of me and have no other purpose but to obey me and do my bidding. If they choose they don't want to, well, that's their problem, not mine.
EDIT: Oh, and, to get Nomad at ease, when I do go for it they come to me. Even if I may not believe that they're "real" I call them via thinking of it or make the "get over here" gesture in a way that there's no way they can see it. And they do it. Guess you could say I'm real careful about hurting real people.
It's like. We all have bad thoughts. You're saying you've never been mad at someone and had a passing thought about how great it would feel to do something bad to them? It isn't our thoughts(or what we do in our dreams)that make us who we are, it's what we decide to do(in real life) with those thoughts that make us who we are.
I thinks that's the best answer I've read so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince_RIP
Just because something comes naturally to us, doesn't make it good. From what I understand, you see no thoughts or actions that a person has or does as either good or evil, but just as a result of nature. Meaning that you believe that there is no good or evil. Then yeah, your going to find the concept of stopping these urges and thoughts horrible. This whole thing means nothing if there is no good or evil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ade
Ok, I can already tell that I've misunderstood you in some way because you seem to have a sense of of right and wrong, because you use the word immoral. Let me answer with this. I've heard all my life that if your really angry, you should take it out on an inanimate object, like a pillow. Or you should scream and let it out. That it helps and is a healthy vent for anger. Guess what I've found? People start to like it, they start to lose their temper more and more. Why? Because they have found a very good excuse for releasing it instead of controlling it. Thoughts and feelings are not stopped or corrected by constantly feeding into them. They are stopped by calming them down and either A) ignoring them till they leave, or B) willing them to change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ade
Being that this was a lucid dream, and that there was conscious control, yeah. Logic and reasoning can win over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ade
Of course I have. In fact its one of my most common and worst traits. Every time I serve someone who I think is snotty at work, I get these violent and wrathful images in my head. I used to just go with it. But guess what I found? The more I thought on it, the easier it was to become annoyed with someone, or insulted by their manner. I never acted on my rage and so I assumed it was ok. But I came to find that my days at work slowly became filled with more and more anger, and weren't nearly as nice as when I started working there. I would think to myself "You ****er, I am not you servant you can at least look at me when I'm talking to you", my mind would focus on that and it would go from there onto the next person who came to the counter. Lately, when I've started thinking like this, I've begun to stop it deep in its tracks and will myself to go another direction. Am i still angry? Maybe, but I don't FEED it. I concentrate on the job, and so work has steadily improved for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince_RIP
You seem to believe that actions are all a person are. That thoughts are not a part of you. That they should have their own standards away from the body.
Philosopher's condescension amuses me.
Taking it to the extreme, is it morally wrong to cherish desires and dreams of unspeakably immoral acts, such as raping and killing young children?
I'd say it's down right creepy, but if somebody has such strong desires, but has the good conscious to not act on these terrible impulses, I would praise them for having good morals. They didn't ask to have such twisted desires, in the same way gays didn't ask for homosexuality (I'm not saying homosexuality is immoral in any way), and claustrophobic people didn't choose to be afraid of small spaces.
Maybe I should have voiced my opinion is Latin, just to one up Philosopher.
This debate could go on forever. Personally, I say who cares what you do in your dreams? It's not real. The DC resisted because he probably expected her to, and we all know how that affects a dream. If she went along, would that make it okay?
Expectation is everything in a dream. You expect a DC to do the chicken dance, and they will. I know that from experience. :P
I've seen several people say the same thing. I find it interesting. What few lucid dreams I have had have been brief. I've noticed that very simple passing thoughts in my mind during the dream will suddenly alter the reality of the dream, while an conscious effort sometimes will not. Makes me feel like a wizard in training :cheeky:Quote:
Originally Posted by Puffin
You acknowledge the truth of it, but ignore the implications of it. Because of my low self esteem, when I see a girl in my dream I expect that she's going to reject me. Therefore, when I make a move on a girl in a dream, she rejects me, simply because I expected it. So should I never be able to have sex in a dream?Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteKnight
Rape is wrong. It is still wrong even in a dream. though in a dream you arent hurting anyone.Ive never had a DC resist though So idk
Well, you've got two choices I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince_RIP
1) Repair your self esteem
or
2) Just rape dream women
The choice is up to you, but the good thing about option number one is that it's going to have an affect on you both inside and outside the dream world.
(edit: there's also option number three, which is total abstinence, which we all know totally sucks)
No, I see the implications of it. Being moral doesn't always mean doing what you like. People cannot be moral 100% of the time. They can't. Being moral is the act of trying to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince_RIP
Hm, depends on views, but if you are lucid, you should be aware that it is all an image of your head, and as such, you aren't "raping" since it isn't even real... and there is more than one reason as to why the DC would present as such, expectations my kid, you are no freak just because you didn't get full control in a LD <.<
Sounds like those are DC's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacklight
No. Rape has serious consequences and deals with real human beings. You were interacting in a consequence-free environment with figments of your imagination. If I imagine killing someone, does that make me a murderer?
filthy rapist! actually. i don't think there is anything wrong with you. your subconscious just thinks that you would be rejected because of possible low self-esteem(?)
...Again, that's the same logic that drives homophobia and the desire to take violent video games and movies off the shelves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daydreamer14
By your logic, doing something to a nonexistent thing makes you a freak.
So, say, I was dreaming about war, or reenacting the movie Black Hawk Down. HOLY CRAP SOMEONE GOT KILLED I'M SUCH A SICK BASTARD!!!!
See what I mean? Nobody's getting hurt, therefor it doesn't matter. If a nonexistent woman is nonexistently forced into nonexistent sex in a dream, how is it wrong? Where's the victim? Who is being hurt? Who is being wronged in any way, shape or form?
Besides, what about people who are into rough sex? Maybe it's not rape, maybe the dream character was pretending to be raped, because it was erotic roleplay. Feel better now? :D
I'm sure being raped sucks. But it's also maybe bending the issue for you here.
Like what? Can you even do anything to have fun in a dream without ever hurting anyone and being forced to live with the guilt and knowledge that you are a freak and a criminal for the rest of your life? :roll:Quote:
Has it ever occurred to you that there may be better things to do in dreams than sex?
@To all theese "Its a mirror", yes it is, to a degree, but when a person gets power(And you get a power impossible to your waking life body) it changes.
That means it isnt you that is dreaming, but a pat of you that is impossible to exist in reality. You get godlike control of your own universe, what you do to it, is always good, if you think it. Do whatever you want, feel the extreme feeling. I have sex with the girls in my dreams, because they always wants me, and thats because i have heard that the girls are hungerign for me but dosent dare to say it.. And if they dont want it, ill just say "Put a banging donk on it" and leave the area, so i can move a mountain or something.. But mostly when they do this, theyre alway like "Oh its the king, ill better please him".
I blew up my own house in a dream once.. Did the "explosives spam gmod style with menu and everything" in my own house and shot at it with some gun (I wasent very creative at that point).. Would i even think about it in real life? NO FUCKING WAY! Would i think about rape in real life? NO FUCKING WAY! Because its not really me, its only a clone of me. I even drop off high places for fun, and for experimenting (What would the sub-c cook up for me?).
ITS YOUR FUCKING WORLD SON/BROTHER/CHAP/W/E
It is not about what is good or evil it is about what is, something constant, that can not be changed and suppressed.
Oh, if all was so simple!
Let me tell you something about the conscious mind - it is always opened to the subconscious, so how can you truly be sure that even when you are turning on the logic center, your desicions are not influenced by it?
There is a very deep connection between these two minds which let’s face it, is yet to be explored.
If you think that you are obligated to use LD to fight it, then you have doomed yourself to a failure.
It is impossible to destroy these instincts by ignoring them, even if you do learn to LD at will, even if all of your dreams are lucid. In this way you just bottle it up, and trust me when I say it will find a way to come up again.That is why I find it to be dangerous.
You think it is a question of morality, should it or shouldn’t it apply in the dream world?
I think it is a question of how far can you meddle with things you do not understand, like the function of the subconscious?
I understand your point of view, and I don't think you are an idiot, but sice we are on opposite sides of the road, I do find your lack of knownlege about yourself quite insulting.
By your logic, nothing we do can be changed. We should just give in to every desire or impulse we have because if we don't, it is dangerous. The subconscious is the almighty ruler of the brain and we have no free will. Am I understanding this right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ade