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Ok bud...if you wanna say that there is no difference between real life and dream life then by all means...you'll understand if I, as well as almost everyone else, doesn't agree with you.
As has been said, you can manipulate your dream world to do whatever you want. If you can control real life, turn my room into an african safari and make me fly onto an elephant and ride him.
If you have dream with another dreamer in it, you can't make them do shit, no matter how godly your dream control is.
After I complete my MILD DVA task, I am going to kill everyone I see in my dream. Yep. I am going to be a mass serial killer. I am going to be a mass serial killer in real life because I killed DCs in my DREAM. Instead of killing people in my IMAGINARY WORLD, I am going to kill people in REAL LIFE.
Maybe I should force people to have sex with me in my dreams. Yes, maybe I should rape someone in my dreams. Then, by doing this, I will end up raping people in REAL LIFE.
[/sarcasm]
The person you dreamt you were raping was a dream character. Just a projection of your mind. It is not a real person that is getting hurt. If it was a shared dream, as Nomad was saying, you cannot make them do anything. You didn't hurt anybody! If it bothers you so much that you did this, then don't do it again. It is as simple as that.
In a dream, you are not hurting anybody. In real life, you are hurting someone.
Oh well. If it bothers you so much, stop it.
Edit: Don't let anybody else tell you that you are a rapist or that you are not a rapist. You decide what you are. So, what are you? A rapist, or no?
Because depending on views, dreams = your mind, so your DCs = yourself, in which case you are masturbating lol
So if you believe dreams = your mind, then it isn't rape, wonder why this thing got so complicated when its so simple... don't people know the situation varies depending on beliefs?
You're still missing the underlying principles. You've never actually controlled someone in dreams, have you? And if you have, I don't think you understood the mechanics of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedurut
In terms of perception, and how the images are finally formed and stored, there is no discernible difference. Whether you've realized it or not, dreams and waking life are two sides of the same coin. Lucid dreaming skirts the edge of that coin. All I'm trying to do here is make this issue as complicated as it actually is. None of you seem to have allocated a sufficient amount thought to it. To me, it appears your intuition is doing all the work, otherwise no one would be throwing around words like "real" and "non-existent".Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince_RIP
Ha, don't be retarded. First of all, manipulating the dream world is essentially the same as altering your perception, something fairly easy to accomplish in that sleeping state, as long as you know what you're doing, anyways. Secondly, what you suggest I do is possible, but would require me to invoke severe and drastic changes in how you perceive the world. I think you'll agree, that's much easier said than done. Perhaps taking some hallucinogens will help you with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince_RIP
Sure, dream characters could be real beings. But couldn't the ground beneath you also be a conscious being just as well? Does that stop you from walking? Couldn't baseball gloves be the true sentient beings in our world? Should we stop throwing baseballs to each other at this thought? We could be hurting them. What about those Goombas in Super Mario Brothers? They could be conscious too! Let's stop playing Super Mario Brothers, we could be hurting them!
I see why Philosopher gets frustrated. Sorry for the jab, but your level of reading comprehension is pretty low, neh? If you had payed attention, you'd see I never claimed DCs were sentient. In fact, if anything, I've been suggestion the opposite is true.Quote:
Originally Posted by MJMax
Also, even if I had made the claim that DCs are sentient, your counter points are silly and downright laughable. They add nothing to this conversation, except blatant ignorance toward the issue at hand.
What point are you trying to make, then? You say that there is no way to prove objectively that any one of us exists, and that the same is true of dreams. Are you trying to prove that there is no way to discern objectively what exists, between the dream world and reality?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzzkc
What do you consider "existence?" Since the "issue" at hand here is whether "rape" in dreams is immoral, I'd assume that by "existence" you mean sentience. After all, if dreams are merely projections of the brain, they do exist in your brain, even if they are merely unconscious perceptions.
Calling arguments laughable and saying someone is being "blatantly ignorant to the 'issue' at hand" adds nothing to the conversation.
HEy I just thought of something. Was the DC trying to resist and fight and get away? or was it just something like she sat there and did whatever but you could tell she would rather be somewhere else?
Oh and I have controlled dream people before but what I did was put my conciousness inside the DC and basically posessed them. I guess there are other ways to do it though.
Spot on. This realization effectively nullifies the argument that it's okay to rape DCs because they "don't exist."Quote:
Originally Posted by MJMax
You're getting close here. By existence, I mean anything that lays outside my perception of reality, of its own accord. You said yourself "dreams are merely projections of the brain." The same can be said of the waking world. For all intents and purposes, we are living in a dream. When we sleep, what forms around us becomes our reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by MJMax
You are completely right. It was a spiteful way to discredit your idea, and I apologize.Quote:
Originally Posted by MJMax
You know, I've been thinking. This might sound completely dumb, but I'm going to throw it out there anyway. If there's anything wrong with raping someone in a dream, then it must be in a regular dream. In a lucid dream, some people would say it's okay because since they're lucid, they understand that the "victim" isn't real, and there are no consequences. However, if you rape someone in a normal dream, that would actually be much worse because in a normal dream you think everything is completely real, and you go about things as if they WERE real. What I'm trying to say is, whatever it is you do in a normal dream, I think it's safe to say that that's what you would actually do if it were real life.
I doubt this applies to everyone, but almost everytime I review a normal dream, I conclude, "yeh that's exactly what I would've done if it were real". Anyways, does anyone see my point here? Forget lucids, I think it's what you do in your non-lucid dreams that matter. It's easy to do stuff in lucids because hey, you know it's not real. But if you had a non-lucid dream in which you raped someone, then that's probably when you wake up and think "What the fuck, did I really just do that?". I hope I haven't offended anyone. Just something I've been thinking about.
It's a good thought, but your state of consciousness within dreams, waking life, and lucid dreams are all drastically different. It is inaccurate to assume what you'd do in one, is what you'd do in the other.
Is anyone interested in a shared dream where I rape you? No amphibians or freaks.
(joking)
Mzzk I agree. In dreams I sometimes do things I wouldnt do in waking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzzkc
if she was resisting and fighting i wouldnt care i would punch her (ofc i wouldnt do it irl but i feel so free in my dreams to litterally do whatever i feel) one time i pissed on someone that was annoying me and i sometimes walk around a city butt naked (in the dream lol)
In real life do as you please, think what you please. An impulse is something far more less than an instinct.
O.k let me put this in a more simple way...There are some primitive animal instincts which have been suppresed by the conscious mind from a very early age. There are also many layers of the subconscious, which are unreachable for the conscious mind and other layers of the subconscious.
The bottom layer of subconsciousness is the collective unconscious, it is also the place for these "repressed weaknesses" - archetypes (I am refering to this one perticular "weakness").
Usually they are projected on to other people in reall life and on to other DC in dreams, but a persons action can be overwhelmed by these "evil impulses" in moments of indecision( even lucid moments).
The point is, your obsession with good and evil can push things like that aside in every day life(in theory), but to the deeper levels of the subconscious it means nothing. When exactly did it become a question of who rules what? It is just he way it works.
You don't have to fight it or accept it, but acknowledge it as a fact.
Shame, guilt, pride, fear, hate, envy, need, and greed are inevitable byproducts of ego-building. They call forth the polarity of inferiority feeling and power drive. They are the shadow aspects of the first emancipation of the ego. -- Edward C. Whitmont
Moral is knowing the difference between right and wrong. It is without a doubt MORALLY WRONG to rape a woman. So rape is MORALLY wrong REGARDLESS if you do it in your head or for real. It is an IMMORAL THOUGHT. The difference is one of the two will land you in prison for about 20 years!Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince_RIP
Good point. I have killed hundreds or even thousands of people in dreams. I have also chilled at school buckass naked, and no one notices, nor do I give a rat's ass for some reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by GabrielG
Have you ever done anything immoral in a dream?Quote:
Originally Posted by macrylinda
We can't base morality on one's thoughts. Thoughts and desires are largely beyond our control. Homosexuals have sexual thoughts about the same sex, and we don't blame them for such thoughts. That's an example of perfectly moral thoughts. Take someone, who by unfortunate chance, sexually lusts towards children. Are this person's sexual thoughts (caused by what I would call an unfortunate sexual perversion) immoral? I would say that thoughts are not eligible for moral judgement; only actions are. I don't think condemning people for thought crime is moral.Quote:
Originally Posted by macrylinda
It's you're thoughts versus your actions, that really determines your morality.
I'm fortunate in that I've never been plagued by "immoral" desires, so remaining a moral citizen has been easy for me.
I respect moral citizens who do have "immoral" desires, and choose not to act on them.
If your next lucid dream takes place in a court room, then yes..
Well, to shock you even more, I am a girl and once I had a dream that I was a guy and I also forced a girl to have sex with me. When doing it I was aware that maybe it wasn't such a nice thing to do, but I also wanted to know how it feels. If it was today, I don't think I would do it anymore, for many reasons.
I have come to know that what we do in dreams generates karma just like what we do in wake life - if you don't accept the law of action-reaction, then you won't swallow it, but I do, so I am actually now using my dreams to get more control of my mind and not to go crazy and do whatever I feel like.
Even if you don't accept karma or karma in dreams, at least consider that what you do in dreams shapes your mind - if you get a taste on forcing girls into sex while dreaming, you're likely to become more rough with them when you're awake, because you are feeding this habit, tendency or pattern of behaviour in your dreams. You might not believe it for now, but eventually it will change you.
Then, if you believe in the possibility of dream sharing (and I am one of those who had experienced it) it's better not to mess up with the DC, because you don't know which ones are your projections and which ones are actual dreamers happening to be sharing a dream with you. It's not nice to be raped on a dream by another dreamer who thinks it's ok, because it's just their imagination. I have also been victim of dream rape by some random guy (I guess karma for having forced the other girl) and it wasn't nice and I believe he wasn't just my projection but actually some dreamer having reckless fun. Boys will be boys, but please get a little more control over your dick, even in dreams it can hurt unintended people.
...and the other one?.. The one which won't land you in prison for about 20 years?...Quote:
Originally Posted by macrylinda
It's immoral thoughts to some...but to the same it's not immoral LDs!
We all differ, time to leave it at!
Internet arguments.
Sorry for sounding so angry, but what is the matter with you people!?
Why don't you turn every house into a garden, every factory into a beautiful cloud so it wouldn't pollute, every cripple into a healthy young man?
Isn't it wrong that you dream of such things or see them lucidly or non-lucidly?
It's only human nature to desire the destruction and decay of everything around you. =PQuote:
Originally Posted by Ade