This entire topic is lol-worthy. It's amazing how much of a shitstorm can start by insulting someone's morality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedurut
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This entire topic is lol-worthy. It's amazing how much of a shitstorm can start by insulting someone's morality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedurut
Fix'd. And yes, it's quite hilarious.Quote:
Originally Posted by MJMax
:laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by GabrielG
thanks for sharing!
I am thoroughly enjoying this thread. Haven't seen such a back and forth discussion in a while.
Now what is beginning is a fun tactic called ‘ if we laugh at it, other people will get the idea that it is ridiculous ‘. You’ve probably seen certain political “comedians” and pundits use the same tactic. They will laugh at a concept or present in a tone that indicates that is a joke, but never fully explain why exactly its funny. Right about now there are one or two posters going “duh, its because the thought trying to implement morality into dreams is stupid. You can’t.” I agree. You can’t in normal dreams. But a lucid dream isn’t a normal dream is it? But somehow this is funny, there is the unspoken hope that if enough people laugh and roll their eyes at it, that it won’t be taken seriously.
The concept that you might have to take responsibility for your own conscious thoughts is horrible to some. Even more horrible when it is inflicted on the perceived sanctity of a lucid dream. If thoughts themselves can be moral or immoral, good or evil. Then (gasp) lucid dreams could fall under that category because we have free will in them! Who is this to tell me what I should and should not think? Not fantasize about?
“Its MINE. MY DREAMS. MY OWN. And I can do anything I want with them!”
I’m not telling you what to do. I am telling you that the indulgence of rape in a lucid dream, and to fantasize about rape is wrong. I can’t make you be a decent human being. You can’t force someone to act moral. The lucid dream of, and fantasizing of rape is no where near as bad as the actual act of rape, but it is bad. Because committing evil isn’t just an act. It takes a WILL. It takes the desire and will to commit the act. That is why this is so disgusting. Not because anything was done in reality, but because the evil was brought to the surface and given indulgence. It was given into.
“Whats the harm? It wasn’t REAL! It doesn’t matter!”
No, not to others no, but you see what lies beneath it? You indulged it, you let that nasty little shadow in your soul out.
“What could it hurt? It’s a dream world, nothing is real. Have some fun.”
What it wants is your will. You want it fulfilled so what it wants is what you want. It is a part of you. A part every person has. Its been let out and rarely is it content to be put back in the box for long. Maybe for a while, and then it will grow restless again. Have you ever cheated on a test, or stolen something? Usually one of the first thoughts that passes through your mind is “That was kind of easy” or something along those lines. Then you may wonder from time to time if you could get away with it again.
“Its always going to be there. Everyone has these thoughts. The important thing is that you don’t ACT on them”
Yes, that is the depressing part. For all your life you will always be stuck with this thing. This part of you, and sometimes it will escape. There is a difference, however, between the person who slips up and it accidentally escapes, and the person who lets it out. A poster here said something to the effect that you can’t make this thing go away, so cope with it. One of the suggestions I believe was “get a girlfriend into fake rape, watch fake rape porn” Is that really an option? If you want to be that sort of person go right ahead, I can’t force you into anything. They confuse ‘cope’ with ‘giving in’.
I understand that, I really do. It feels so good to just drop the box sometimes. To just let the slack out of the chains and take a breather. Let the vicious little specter out so it will stop shouting at you and you can get some quiet. A lucid dream must seem like the best sort of place to do this, but you forget that the most important part of you is still there. Your will. Believe me, it’s a nice welcome to have it no longer screeching and talking your ear off. Just give it what it wants so it will shut up.
You see however, there is a problem with me and it. The problem is, I HATE IT. I despise and loath this part of me. This corrosive little shadow of myself. It is everything bad and wrong with me. It is every lie, every uncharitable thought, every cruelty, every bit of self pride I’ve ever had. That is what is in that little black box. If I have to carry this little vermin around with me until the day I die, then I will do my best to make sure it stays in that box as much as possible. That the sweet taste of dreams or fresh air is as foreign to it as another universe. Sometimes, I will fail horribly, but just because it got a vacation today doesn’t mean I should give it one tomorrow. If you despise this part of you, if you want to be better than the poison in your soul, then you have to reject it every moment you can. Waking, or asleep.
Your position that raping someone in a dream is immoral IS laughable. We're not doing it to discredit your position, we're doing it because it's funny to us.
Now, another point. There are people, guys and girls, that fantasize about rape. The girl who fantasizes about it probably wouldn't want to actually be brutally raped, and the guy who fantasized about it probably has no intention of actually raping a girl. That being said, what if you were in a relationship and both of you thought the idea of rape was hot?(keeping in mind that the guy wouldn't do it and the girl wouldn't actually want it to happen to her) So they decide to role play as if he's raping her. Would that be immoral? No, it's just a fantasy. So too is raping a girl in your dream just a fantasy.
White Knight... That was a bit TL;DR and I skimmed it.
But basically, you're saying that rape is immoral, and the desire to rape someone is an immoral thought.
I think we can both agree, though, that there is nothing inherently wrong with it.
Also, the thing I was laughing at was the fact that the person I quoted gave no real evidence of his/her view and why it's correct, and then tried to call someone else out for the same thing.
However, it is also true that thought police is ridiculous.
I have a question.
How many of you, right here, right now, can prove to me you exist?
Is responding to your forum post not conclusive enough???Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzzkc
Sadly, no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reptile00Seven
I can't be sure of your existence until you prove you exist outside of my subjective reality.
Has you subjective reality ever potrayed a forum member as someone who doesn't exist?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzzkc
What does doubt do for you in terms discovering what is real or not?
I don't see how this is relevant to my original query. Can you, or can you not, prove your existence to me?Quote:
Originally Posted by Reptile00Seven
Obviously noone can prove their existence to you, as you can't prove your existence to me. It's an interesting thought, but completely unverifiable either way. What you're talking about is solipsism.
That being said, it appears to be obvious trolling and trying to derail a thread.
You're too quick to call the troll card.
Before I continue, however, I have one more question to ask.
Recalling I have no way to verify you are nothing more than an illusion created by my mind, what is the difference between you and one of my DCs?
All evidence points to me being real. Science proves me to be real. Science proves your DC to be a figment of your imagination. As you said, it's unverifiable. Hell, maybe the dream world is the true reality and our waking life is fake. There's no way to know. There is no logical reason to think that real life isn't real, however, though it is possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzzkc
If you'd be so kind as to list this evidence, I'd appreciate it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince_RIP
I thought we already determined science cannot prove this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince_RIP
I'd really like to see the papers on this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince_RIP
Right, which means stating any of these as fact in a debate, such as this, is a fallacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince_RIP
I think you're just trying to avoid the startling similarities between dreams and waking life. In actuality, there is no logically sound and meaningful difference between a person I see while awake, and a person I see while dreaming.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince_RIP
Therefore, I don't understand why it's morally okay to rape one and not the other.
From a logical standpoint, of course.
How about the fact that you can make them do whatever you want with your thoughts?
I do that IWL, too. It just takes a bit more work. However, the concepts behind the two are remarkably similar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedurut
...IWL? In Waking Life?
Make me do something. I don't believe you. Do it.
I just did, actually. But I don't expect you to believe that. So you won't.
Tell me.
It better not be "I just made you reply to a post," though.
Haha, it was more like making you challenge me and prove myself than anything else.
The next bit was telling you I had already done it and make you not believe me, while simultaneously and cleverly proving I could do it by telling you you wouldn't believe me. =P
For incredibly simple things like this, it's really not very hard to do, as long as you can guess well enough how the other person thinks. In the end, it's all where you direct their focus, how you word things, etc. Subtly guiding their path until you reach your desired outcome.
More complex tasks take quite a bit more work, but they are possible. However, in dreams, everything is much more straightforward, and usually only takes a small bit of direction before you get the essence of what you want. Of course, like in reality, there are the odd cases where the DC doesn't do exactly what you wanted them to do. This is true even for people with significant amount of control experience.
Edit: I really hope someone is seeing what I've been doing here. XD
...Yeah.
So you're saying that because you told me you can control my thoughts... and I challenged you, that that's what you wanted all along thereby proving your point that characters in dreams are real people?
It's a bit of a stretch.
I'm going to sleep. Good morning.
The only thing the OP "fantasized about" in his dream is sex. He didn't rape anybody, the concept of rape only came to him as he woke up and thought about the DC as a potentially conscious entity. He had sex with a DC that reacted negatively, but the reaction isn't something he wanted. So I don't see how you people can mix up a person having sex with his own subconsious projecting a non-compliant random DC with a person who rapes people because "he has a little rapist beast THAT WANTS TO COME OUT RARGH! RARGH!".
Seriously... The first times I had LDs people wanted to kill me for the simple reason that I said it was all a dream and I had to slaughter them with knives... and when I did have sex they also seemed to struggle. But after my confidence in my dream control grew DCs and dream space-time just did what I wanted. If I wanted them to fly away they did, if I wanted them to have sex they did, if I wanted to make a nuclear explosion I could. So no, you're not a rapist or a murderer. We LDers are just potentially immoral if we find out that DCs aren't just DCs, but some emergent entities with consciousness like us. If that's true, hurting and being hurt is a part of reality we can have little to no effect on. There is no evil part of me hidden inside that wants to cause pain and suffering... there are parts that want to hunt and fight, but cause suffering? No. There is a difference between those things. Just like there is a difference in the OPs case - between having sex while causing suffering and just having sex. As far as he knew in the dream he did the latter.
He only had a problem with it because he woke up thinking about a DC as a human, not a spontaneous image generated from memory and certain behavioral imprints. So if anything should be discussed here is not whether OP or people like him (everybody here) have little rapists, psychopatic murderers or zombie hunters deep inside them, but whether dreams are only ours or a part of some other consciousness like the DCs or whatever. And this is for beyond dreaming/philosophy/RS section if anything.