Dream recall and its relevance to lucid dream induction

[dark side of the sun]

I've experimented a little with trying to induce lucid dreams in the past and have just begun to take it up again, which is why I've posted this message here and not in the beginner's forum. There's one thing I don't understand with regard to the induction of lucid dreaming and the neccesity of dream recall. In the information on this site and many others, it is stated that "without being able to remember your dreams, you'll forget any dreams in which you become lucid". But how could you forget it if you were lucid in your dream? I mean - truly lucid and consciously "awake" so to speak? I mean - wouldn't you have as much chance of remembering your dream as you would of remembering any other ever event which took place while you were awake? Say for example, I flew over the ocean while I was lucid dreaming, how could I possibly not remember that even if I had poor dream recall? I mean if you're conscious and awake, should not the memory of the dream experience be just like the memory of a real life event? Say I flew over the ocean in real life and went to bed straight afterwards, I'd obviously still remember it the next day. So if I fly over the ocean in a lucid dream, why do I need to have good dream recall to remember something that I was awake for? Like if I became truly lucid in a dream and was able to fly, there's no way I wouldn't remember that because - holy s**t I can fly!!! It would, for all intents and purposes be just like a real memory, so even if I had zero dream recall, there's no way I'm going to forget that I flew while I was "awake". I'm not sure if any of this makes sense. I'm not trying to pay out the notion of lucid dreaming in any way, I'm just trying to understand the level of "awakeness" that can actually be achieved. I'm just wondering if lucid dreaming is truly lucid, or it's more like being in a similar mental state to someone who's very stoned and never quite totally aware or in control of their reality. I just think that if I was truly awake in a dream, my level of dream recall the next day would be irrelevant because it would be like any other memory I had while awake. Is it possible that what people think are lucid dreams are those "false lucid dreams"? I just can't see how a person could forget something they experience while they're awake. Truly awake and conscious, I mean. And can anything less than that state truly be considered "lucid", or is it then just a very vivid dream? If anyone can possibly clarify this, I'd love to hear people's thoughts. Cheers.

[Bosco]

i see ur point but at eh same time i have had many lucids which i barely remember...maybe i dindt remember for 2 or 3 days after it happened...i think u r concious during it but at the same time not really.....if u cant remember ur dreams i dont think u will remember a lucid dream unless it is a mind blwoing experience...even then not always

[Charybdus]

darkside... I have had very vivid non-LD's recently. They are different to me in the aspect of not having the usual 'control' over my surroundings/self. Vivid non-LD's play themselves out under the control of the subconscious - like watching a movie unfold. Recall varies from person to person...but you can 'train' yourself to recall more. This is what I am working on now. To me, a true LD would mean that I have some form of conscious control/manipulatory abilities during the dream. Perhaps it is time to introduce a new acronym? HighlyVividNonLucidDream...? C

[dark side of the sun]

Cool, thanks for your thoughts Charybdus. Is it still possible that one might be able to control their dream world without being conscious though? I've had a few false lucid dreams, in which I actually believed I was lucid but when I woke up I realised that I was only dreaming it. I imagine my first thoughts if I ever have a true lucid dream would be utter awe, amazement and joy. Exactly the same as if I went to bed one night and woke up the next day to find myself on Mars. I know that no matter how bad my dream recall was, if I woke up to find myself on Mars I would never ever forget it. How could someone who has experienced something while being awake forget it? It seems that the only explanation is that they really wanted to believe they had a lucid dream when in fact it was just a very vivid dream. To me, the ultimate proof of having had a lucid dream is that when I awake, the memory of the dream will be the same and as clear as the memory of something that I experienced in reality. If it isn't, then I just couldn't say it was a truly lucid experience. What the mind may think while it's asleep and what it thinks when awake are two very different things, no matter how vivid a person's dream might be. I just can't see how, if someone is truly awake while they dream, that they could forget it any more than they would forget something that happened to them while awake during the day. I mean, surely awake is awake, whether you're in a dream or a real life situation. Otherwise perhaps it shouldn't be called lucid dreaming if you're not lucid enough to remember, because that's not what being lucid is. I wouldn't forget driving the car down to the shops in real life, so why would I forget it if I was awake in a dream? The only explanation that seems to make sense is that I couldn't have been truly awake. Maybe it comes down to the definition of what "awake" really means. Thanks for your reply. I really want to get my head around it all and see what kind of lucid state I can expect to hopefully achieve!

[Umbrella]

Recalling lucid dreams is often easier than recalling normal ones, but they can still be forgotten, seeing as the memories of any of our dreams are erased during the non-REM-sleep periods. Also, dream recall is important because it enables you to recall dreamsigns, which are used to become better at lucid dreaming. If you don't know what kind of dreamsigns you should look for, learning to be a good lucid dreamer is gonna be difficult... Besides, normal dreams are often fun experiences too, and I personally love remembering so many of them.

[dark side of the sun]

Yeah that's true. I do understand the importance of dream recall with regard to dream signs. What I don't quite understand is that if we're truly awake in our dreams, we shouldn't need to have any dream recall to remember the experience. Our memory of lucid dreaming should be as clear as the memory of doing something while waking, so dream recall seems like it would be irrelevant to remembering a lucid dream. I guess my point is - if a lucid dream can't be remembered as clearly as any other memory, is it a truly lucid experience? I could be wrong of course, but I just don't think it is. It's not going to stop me with all the techniques to try and have a full lucid dream, but I can't help but think that many people who think they're having lucid dreams are getting "lucid" confused with "extremely vivid". I hope I'm wrong though. Cheers.

[lucidadic]

While it makes sense that you would remember a dream that's lucid better, I think dream memory is (at least with lower dream recall) a lot like temporary storage. At least for me, I can only remember one dream a night without recording it. If I have another dream, it seems to override the first dream unless I stay up or write it down. I don't think LD's are different in this regard, so I think it's just a matter of being able to 'hold' more than one dream in your memory at a time, not how vivid it is.

[Supernova]

The lucid dream state is NOT waking consciousness. There are differences between the two states of consciousness which must be regarded. Although lucid dreams are often somewhat easier to remember than non-lucid dreams, they still can easily be forgotten. Aside from that, having good dream recall - that is, being more in touch with your dreams and being able to be aware of and contemplate them for a longer time while you're awake - will help you immensely in becoming lucid in the first place.

[GuyCecil]

Yeah that's true. I do understand the importance of dream recall with regard to dream signs. What I don't quite understand is that if we're truly awake in our dreams, we shouldn't need to have any dream recall to remember the experience. Our memory of lucid dreaming should be as clear as the memory of doing something while waking, so dream recall seems like it would be irrelevant to remembering a lucid dream. I guess my point is - if a lucid dream can't be remembered as clearly as any other memory, is it a truly lucid experience? I could be wrong of course, but I just don't think it is. It's not going to stop me with all the techniques to try and have a full lucid dream, but I can't help but think that many people who think they're having lucid dreams are getting "lucid" confused with "extremely vivid". I hope I'm wrong though. Cheers. But in our dreams, we're still conscious. We notice the things happening around us. It's just that it hasn't dawned on us that we're dreaming. I don't think that the realization that we're dreaming is enough to instantly switch off whatever physiological process occurs that prevents dreams from being remembered.

[lucidadic]

But in our dreams, we're still conscious. We notice the things happening around us. It's just that it hasn't dawned on us that we're dreaming. I don't think that the realization that we're dreaming is enough to instantly switch off whatever physiological process occurs that prevents dreams from being remembered. Actually, the Dorsolateral prefrontal cortex in the brain is reactivated upon realize the dream state. Heres a link :Dorsolateral prefrontal cortex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. This part of the brain is also the logic centre. So there is a difference in the mind set in a lucid dream than in a non - lucid dream. Not sure how much it's different though.