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Has anyone ever experienced this (or had any type of dream awake)? I don't mean average daydreaming, I mean where you actually see, feel, hear, smell, and taste everything you induce while awake. I don't know, maybe it would be super advanced visualization or self-induced hallucinations that you somehow control.
I've done this a few times before but it was random, non-lucid, and only lasted a few seconds. I'd like to know how to do this so if know please give me advice or some links.
The closest I experienced like this was simple daydreaming while lying in my bed, falling a little asleep, so the daydream got into a dream... but when I tried to control it, instant wakeup.
Interesting topic however, made me curious.
There is research suggesting that dreams and non-physical experiences actually aren't dependent on you being in REM sleep, but rather that your focus of awareness is in another frequency of existence. So let's think of the REM sleep as just a way for our mind to easier attain this focus of awareness.
Let's for the time being just imagine that the reason to why we dream vividly in REM sleep and are able to pick up up on this frequency of existence is because of the fact that the body's natural DMT chemical gives us a natural high. This is just an example, and probably not true at all but I thought that the mechanics and idea of a drug would be a good example to show that our brain is the reason to how our brain is starting to work on another frequency. Since this is possible with external drugs during the day as well.
So by surrendering to the idea that dreaming only is possible in REM sleep, is actually to limit yourself. Because if you want to practise during the day you will have that idea planted in your mind making it impossible to trust your own natural ability to actually do it. During the night it can be a helpful tool to time your practise with the REM sleep, but even then you are limiting yourself because if you miss the timing of that you will feel like you have to wait for the the next REM and be so dependent on that fact. Also for the lucid dreaming itself you will be limited by the belief that you only can dream when you are in REM so you will dream for 20 minutes and once again have to wait.
What I am saying is not to start taking external drugs, what I am saying is that the experience is not based on the drug itself. The drug is just a tool to attain something else. A different frequency in the brain! So in theory (and hopefully in practise!) everything needed to get a non-physical experience is to change your brainwaves. Not REM, Not Sleep and Not Drugs!
And this was your question, sort of (I redefined the meaning of it). And the answer is kind of annoying... And more difficult than it sounds.
The brainwave state we are looking for is the theta: Brainwaves: Beta ~ Alpha ~ Theta ~ Delta
And this is attained by deep relaxation and a maintaining of awareness.
So the answer is kind of annoying - To induce a lucid dream during the day all you have to do is to perform the WILD technique.
And even though that this answer didn't brought us a cool awesome new technique to practise, we learned one important new thing:
You can WILD whenever you want! No WBTBs, NO pre-sleep and no REM! However all those three are tools to make the process easier.
All the information above is something you can choose to believe or not, but it's basically what I have concluded in my years of practise.
But this is just a small part of what it's all about, if you want to go deeper watch this:
Spirit Science 8 ~ Meditation - YouTube
Interesting theory, MasterMind. I'd like to see some of that research, because I have trouble finding honest and open minded research myself. You address the possibility that our consciousness is not actually a physical phenomenon, i.e. it cannot be linked directly to a specific area of the body or to a certain chemical (although DMT is sometimes referred to as the spirit molecule, and this is also the dream inducing chemical, as far as I understand). So our body stays the same when transitioning from alive to physical death (or to dreams), i.e. does not lose weight when the spirit leaves. That means that consciousness is the focus of awareness/attention of some kind of non-physical into physical reality, thus physical reality might be a big shared lucid dream altogether.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterMind
Relating this to the initial question: When 'awake' can be viewed as a big LD, why not have a LD while 'awake'? I don't see anything weird in what you are experiencing, as the only weird thing is experiencing itself. Focusing attention into other realms is not that mystical or uncommon, I think we do that each time we are pondering in memories or in imagination (I mean these realms are not actually stored in the brain, like on a hard drive, but they are accessed through resonance with brain/body frequencies, like MasterMind says). In the end it doesn't matter if you believe in non-physical or would rather call it advanced visualization, the experience of it is a real dream.
You cannot "dream" while awake. That's called hallucinating. The only situation where you dream while awake is due a specific disorder in which the person can be wide awake and still experience dreams. As you may have guess, it's quite a radical experience (and quite some conflict between internal and external sensory input).
Also, one role of serotonin (among other neurotransmitters) is to prevent mental projections to interfere with your central nervous system in which external sensory input is the predominant, and there's pretty good reasons why that happens. That's why you don't really see people talking about "waking life like" visualization. Maybe it's possible, but it's certainly not something you can attain naturally.
Not trying to pick an argument, but that research seems extremely unreliable :P Dreams never were dependent on REM sleep to begin in. In fact, quite a significant amount of N-REM dreams are totally indistinguishable from REM dreams. Maybe you could point us that research out and we could discuss it here :)Quote:
There is research suggesting that dreams and non-physical experiences actually aren't dependent on you being in REM sleep, but rather that your focus of awareness is in another frequency of existence. So let's think of the REM sleep as just a way for our mind to easier attain this focus of awareness.
Further to what Zoth has said, I am fairly certain there is a part of the brain that actively suppresses the imagery associated with dreams which turns off/down during sleep. I believe that all animal studies exploring the destruction of this area resulted in the death of the subjects.
I wish I knew the specific name for this - this is why I need to start making footnotes in my reading and type up my notes.
This is a state I can get in whenever I am over tired, but content.Quote:
Originally Posted by purplepearl678
The dreams are very short, but clear, and just like a true dream they fade very quickly, and are lost.
As I get older, these dreams/daydreams are getting easier to achieve.
It can be a form of 'Depersonalisation' which is classed as an illness. But then again, so is disagreeing with authority.
So who is to say it is a skill, or an illness.
It isn't research that is focusing on the REM's correlation with Dreams in itself. It's rather experiences from a variety of different people in a lab that is pointing in a direction of a different model of reality.
All the research can be found at The Monroe Institute's webpage: The Monroe Institute | Explore Consciousness - Transform Your Life
Anyway I am not looking for a discussion, I just wanted to show how some belief (theory) can limit and how trying the "impossible" open up your mind for new possibilities.
This may or may not be related, but when one of my LDs were about to end, I could see the dream world in one eye and my room in another. It was very strange.
Yes yes.. Actually this is a coincidence. I just started thinking about this a few weeks ago. I guess you could say I just..remembered it. When I was a kid, about the age of 5 to 15, I used to be able to have extremely vivid daydreams. It's hard to explain but when I daydreamed, I was THERE. I was no longer in class, or in the car, but I was wherever I wanted to be, and I could do anything I wanted to. It was amazing at the time.
I used to think I outgrew the ability to do it though, until now. For a few weeks now I've been trying to do it again. Trying as hard as I possibly could to have one of those daydreams. At first, it was nothing. I would be ripped back to reality in a heartbeat. It was extremely frusturating knowing that I used to have the ability to do something amazing, but I cant do it anymore. But yesterday, I got a little closer. I daydreamed for a good 10 minutes, not completely vivid, but I was "in deeper" if ya know what I mean. It was clearer, and I wasnt distracted by the outside world.
This is why I think now that it's not an ability you grow out of with age, it's an ability you lose through disuse, just like any other skill. With practice, I may be able to get close to what I used to be able to achieve, if not completely.
All this daydreaming, or whatever you wish to label it as, seems to be easier in youth.
There is only reason I have the skill back. I changed my diet.
No more beef, or pork from commercial sources.
I will be starting a thread on this matter in a few weeks, when more results from my little experiments come through.
Seems to me like you are talking about entering a dream straight from waking. If all your senses are in the dream, then you are asleep. Sometimes you can slip into REM without even realizing that you fell asleep and still not realize that you are dreaming. This happens often when hitting the alarm over and over in the morning or during WBTBs, but it can also happen when you take a nap a few hours after waking. There is no gap between waking and sleeping, but you somehow lost consciousness, because you were not lucid. My opinion. I would love to hear more. :D
I have had this happen as well. When trying to control it, I would move the wrong body. :/ after getting the same feeling upon waking as that feeling, I thought about stabilizing, but I couldn't move when stabilizing. I thought about it more and realized that I could change everything I was feeling by thought, so I would imagine my hands moving up and rubbing together (Now I just press button, but that is a different story). This would pull me into the dream world completely, and I would then be able to move like "normal" within the dream.Quote:
Originally Posted by 006
If you get very far into dream yoga then I can teach you a skill I have always known as 'dream trance.' However, it really is an advanced meditation skill, so most need to start much simpler. It is just the skill to change your brain waves conciously, thus allowing a powerful fully amazing use of the visualization centers used in dreams, while awake (?more on awake in a moment). This would be done in a meditation position and takes some time and limited distractions.
Now that I am older and have more knowledge then when this stuff was taught to me, I think I can sum it up in a way that is far less mysterious. I think we can just call this a highly advanced WILD variation and assume that the dream state is taking place in nREM1. Keep in mind Zoth's statement "Dreams never were dependent on REM sleep to begin in. In fact, quite a significant amount of N-REM dreams are totally indistinguishable from REM dreams." and then also Brandon's comment " If all your senses are in the dream, then you are asleep."
If you read about the nREM states, you will find that nREM1 still involves some awareness of the body and the ability to respond if someone adresses you. I assume what is going on with "LDing While Awake" is that I simply can control my brainwave activity and induce a substained nREM1 state, thus allowing dreams, while maintaining perhaps 30% bodily awareness. If I lost all bodily awareness, then Brandon's comment holds,,, I would infact be asleep and just doing a normal WILD.
Not sure exactly what the original poster was describing, but several times later at night reading a book I have immediately slipped Iinto a short vivid dream. Happens so fast it surprises me, and feels instantaneous. I have wondered about this type of experience.
I daydream extremely often and for those moments reality ceases to exist and all my awareness is focused into it. I am able to visualize sight, touch, sound, sometimes smell and taste up to a point where my subconscious kicks in and does the job for me, it's a similar scenario to V[visualization]-WILD. It's quite awesome, but it requires a lot of concentration. I can do that in class, for example, I will just look like someone daydreaming. It's kind of a state of mind between awake and asleep.
Funny, I was just reading about something very similar that was presented originally by Carl Jung called Active Imagination.
With active imagination, you essentially establish a dialogue with the parts of your mind that are usually only available during dreams. In other words, you tap your dreaming mind during waking hours and are able to enjoy the imagery usually reserved for dreams while also being able to converse with your dream-character selves. Or something like that.
I'm not sure if that made any sense, and I personally have never exercised active imagination, but it seemed such a coincidence that I was reading about it at just the same time as when this thread started, I had to share.
Also, if any Jungian psychology-followers out there can better explain his concept, I'd appreciate it...
Quote:
Originally Posted by SIMDML
Your experiences are pretty much exactly what I am talking about. It is impressive you can do this with out specific training!
If I'm relaxed enough I can visualize and feel things very vividly. Definitely helps with MILD.
Sivason, Sageous, thank you; you have given me something to research and aim for.
I like Jung by the way, but don't remember that concept. I will look into it.
I've never been able to fully do what is being described here, but I do a lot of visualization meditation. Nothing special, just inserting myself into old memories and trying to sense everything. Now and then it comes alive to a startling degree; so much so that it usually doesn't last. I always wondered about it, but never really strove for it in particular; until now. I think I may understand what it takes though when you put it in the context of a WILD.
^^ If you want to look into Jung's idea of active imagination, find a copy of his "Memories, Dreams, and Reflections." There's an easier to read description in a book called "Inner Work," by Robert A. Johnson.
That's great! An older thread about something similar made me think about it and I found my way of doing it. If you have any peice of advice about helping the subconscious to kick in easier and and faster it would be much appreciated!Quote:
Originally Posted by sivason
It is not easy at first, as you still have so much conscious awareness. The trick is to mentally relax the words in your head, that voice within. It needs to be running in slow motion to give space for the subconscious mind to play with things.
Thanks for the great tip! :) I'll try that out next time.Quote:
Originally Posted by sivason
I acquired a copy of MDR yesterday, and it has been about 10 hours now, and I am neglecting all of my responsibilities. This is absolutely fascinating. Many thanks for the recommendation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
Ah yes, I made a thread about this not too long ago, I've been caught up in school so it sort of fell to the wayside (SIMDML has already posted a link to it here) hopefully now that the semester is over I can get around to building the tutorial that I plan to write for it. Let me know if you have any questions and I'd be glad to answer (I LDD daily, and have been for quite a long time so I've got a lot to say)
I do have one question. What is the difference between a "regular" lucid dream and a lucid daydream? Which experience is more fulfilling for you? Do LDDs have any limits or advantages lucid dreams don't?
Btw, a tutorial would be great. You seem to be quite the expert. :)
The difference is subtle by definition, although in practice they are very different creatures. An LDD has the added bonus of being possible at any point during the day, (day as in Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday ect. Not as in day vs. night). This factor can lead to some interesting interactions with the physical world, for example I often create holographic inserts of thought based things into my life, such as imagining myself doing all sorts of magic normally only open in dreams. Because you are already awake you can use art forms like painting or writing to record these feats real-time, instead of after waking up like with a normal LD. There are some limits starting out, but they are related to the same ones lucid dreaming has, the exception is that starting out it requires a lot of focus to deal with two worlds at once. I’m not sure which one is more fulfilling for me personally, as I use both for certain situations, although I must admit that the LDD has greatly advanced my progress in the arts, sciences, and general fantasizing.
P.S.
I started writing the tutorial last night, no promise on when it will be done, but I'll try to get it finished ASAP.
^^ Definitely looking forward to the tutorial, Finnegan!
@ Finnegan am also looking forward to a tutorial for that. It seems like advanced (advanced advanced) visualization, but I won't know until I hear it out 100%.
@purplepearl
I don't think that LDD can compare to LDing in the fact that you can create sensations at will in an LD if you wish (push a button and orgasm, haha) and I don't know if that is possible in a LDD. As far as I can see it is extreme visualization, so it could effect you waking life a bunch. When waking from a dream I often find my visualization enhanced, making me able to do things like play a game of chess, do long multiplication (427*6,273,035) because the amount of stability in the visuals. So in this case, lding cant conpare to LDDing. If she can do that at will, then drawing would almost be like tracing because the amount you would be able to see what you want and visualize it. Making it 100% still yours, but easier. So I think they are just different. If she can produce any effects or thoughts of LDs in waking life including the randomness that sometimes is there, then she wouldn't need LDing at all. :P
Feel free to correct me in any points Finnegan, this is my thoughts on it for now. I love being corrected though, because it is always a chance to learn.
I tend to stray away from words like visualization and imagination to describe the LDD as they are often misnomers, etymologically relating to sight more than general phantasia. What I would liken it to is a fully integrated virtual reality, either immersive or mediated, as any sensation that your mind can conceive is able to be used in this fashion. The title LDD is quite general and I made it as a category for a lot of sub-techniques that I make use of in my daily life. Such as simulating subjective qualities and/or replicating objects, memorization of various environments and objects or creative interaction by combining memory into new things, and either active production of the hallucination or passive observance of it, ect.
with that said, I still sleep sometimes :P so the LD does have it's place, and is a great training zone to develop this skill.
Hey Finnegan! I'm glad to see you are back. In the mean time, I experimented a bit more with the technique I talked about and also did a bit of research. I'd like to hear more about your way of LDDing!
Simon
The only way I have heard of people going to a lucid dream while in a wake state is through meditation.
I hate them so much! Asians... just kidding I am Asian too.
But serriously, when I was a beginner and learned new things on my own and found the most effective mindset, methods, philosophy etc. for DILDing guess what open up a Dream Yoga book and it is already discovered hundreds of years perhaps a thousand years ago...
And now when I have been learning to WILD it's the same thing most effective mindset, methods and philosophy etc. is just a description of meditation.
Maybe I should just become a monk and let a real master teach me. :meditate:
Like this: (Ok not like this... xD)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWlJndr3BKE
Good point Mastermind, although I came to this technique through my dream twin (basically my dreamguide, somewhat like a a part of me who has spent her life living in the Drealm), during my further research I found things like Nidra Yoga, and realized this concept is actually ancient.
Can't wait until you're done with your tutorial! :D
^^ What matters, ultimately, is the mindset itself. Whether you got there through self-discovery, intensive research, 7 years in Tibet, divine intervention, input from DC's, or somewhere else altogether, it does not matter.
Success in LD'ing -- day or night -- doesn't depend on who thought first of what you're doing, or if someone else did a better job describing it. It depends on doing it.
But for what it's worth, humans have probably been inventing "new" processes for enhancing their dreaming, imaginative, and conscious experiences since they first woke up in that cave (or tree limb) and realized that they just had a dream, that maybe it was important, and maybe it meant there could be more.
... just sayin'
I was not frustrated that I was not inventing the stuff. I was frustrated that I had been searching for years when the answers where right in front of my nose. :)
Although I realize now just as you say that those years of failures is what gives the answers and process of doing it's value.
This is also why it is so hard to describe to a beginner what they need to do and keep them motivated.
Because longerm success comes from failure and learning by doing. So basically the best advice would be, go and fail and learn.
But beginners want fast result in a week or even just a night.
This is totally off topic, sorry. ;) But I need to get this typed out both for myself with my current hurdles in pick up and for the beginners of dreamviews when it comes to lucid dreaming.
Lose your ego! Free your mind - Everybody falls the first time..
Ok back to topic, I am currently experimenting with lucid day dreaming by following the previous research and attempt from Robert Monroe and a guy named Frank Kepple. And all I can say is that it is really easy to practise and you should try this whenever you are bored on a bus or just taking a nap.
Visualize vividly and totally focus in on it, I have experienced seconds of transitioning just like when you are a beginner and succeeds a transition with DEILD in the morning for the first time, and usually get so shocked that you are snapped back out again.
But this is what is happening during the day after lunch! No pre-sleep or WBTBs and in just 10-30 minutes!
This might be every oneironauts dream, to lucid dream whenever you want and with faster induction and control of the process.
I am really believing in the future of "lding when awake"! ;) And I am so glad to see that there are more, we might change the perspective of dreams in general.
the tutorial is released! click here
Concerning "Active Imagination":Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
I have spent a few weeks devouring Jung materials (thanks again) and think I have a pretty good idea what active imagination is, though it is difficult to nail down to one method. I believe it can refer to many different states, and spans a continuum quite like lucidity itself (lucid, non-lucid, semi-lucid).
What was originally discussed in this topic would be the first kind, and I think Sivason nailed the description already so I will leave that alone.
Active Imagination *seems* to be more of a middle ground though; which can include asking questions and the like such as in lucid dreams, but can also be a more deeply involved experience such as Jung's description of falling into the abyss at his desk; a description that is still very confusing. I have been playing around with this a bit and have had unsatisfactory results at first because of my controlling nature.
However just the other day while meditating I was excessively tired and began to fall asleep. Instead of rousing myself as I usually might, I found myself on the border between HI and a real dream; that is to say it was *very* real, but I was not truly in a WILD state or in another realm (I think), I merely interacted with it. I began to have an interesting dialogue with some strange creature, who had no trouble answering all of my questions in a matter of fact way. It was quite amusing, actually. All of his answers were completely unsurprising, which probably shows that I had too much control and technically did not reach the ideal state, though I was unaware of directing anything consciously.
I have read many accounts of "Jung followers" who relax themselves and imagine their previous dream and just sort of let things play out in their heads without controlling it all. They also call this Active Imagination. This is a way lower level than the first two I have just described, so it seems that the term can mean many things. It can be the process of actually performing a kind of WILD *while meditating*, interacting with very realistic HI, or merely allowing one's imagination to flow without interference; a sort of indirect daydreaming.
Jung was obviously a natural at it, if his descriptions of "being on the verge of madness" can tell us anything.