Thread: LDing when awake?

The closest I experienced like this was simple daydreaming while lying in my bed, falling a little asleep, so the daydream got into a dream... but when I tried to control it, instant wakeup.
Interesting topic however, made me curious.

There is research suggesting that dreams and non-physical experiences actually aren't dependent on you being in REM sleep, but rather that your focus of awareness is in another frequency of existence. So let's think of the REM sleep as just a way for our mind to easier attain this focus of awareness.

Let's for the time being just imagine that the reason to why we dream vividly in REM sleep and are able to pick up up on this frequency of existence is because of the fact that the body's natural DMT chemical gives us a natural high. This is just an example, and probably not true at all but I thought that the mechanics and idea of a drug would be a good example to show that our brain is the reason to how our brain is starting to work on another frequency. Since this is possible with external drugs during the day as well.

So by surrendering to the idea that dreaming only is possible in REM sleep, is actually to limit yourself. Because if you want to practise during the day you will have that idea planted in your mind making it impossible to trust your own natural ability to actually do it. During the night it can be a helpful tool to time your practise with the REM sleep, but even then you are limiting yourself because if you miss the timing of that you will feel like you have to wait for the the next REM and be so dependent on that fact. Also for the lucid dreaming itself you will be limited by the belief that you only can dream when you are in REM so you will dream for 20 minutes and once again have to wait.

What I am saying is not to start taking external drugs, what I am saying is that the experience is not based on the drug itself. The drug is just a tool to attain something else. A different frequency in the brain! So in theory (and hopefully in practise!) everything needed to get a non-physical experience is to change your brainwaves. Not REM, Not Sleep and Not Drugs!

And this was your question, sort of (I redefined the meaning of it). And the answer is kind of annoying... And more difficult than it sounds.
The brainwave state we are looking for is the theta: Brainwaves: Beta ~ Alpha ~ Theta ~ Delta
And this is attained by deep relaxation and a maintaining of awareness.

So the answer is kind of annoying - To induce a lucid dream during the day all you have to do is to perform the WILD technique.

And even though that this answer didn't brought us a cool awesome new technique to practise, we learned one important new thing:

You can WILD whenever you want! No WBTBs, NO pre-sleep and no REM! However all those three are tools to make the process easier.

All the information above is something you can choose to believe or not, but it's basically what I have concluded in my years of practise.

But this is just a small part of what it's all about, if you want to go deeper watch this:

Spirit Science 8 ~ Meditation - YouTube

Originally Posted by MasterMind

There is research suggesting that dreams and non-physical experiences actually aren't dependent on you being in REM sleep, but rather that your focus of awareness is in another frequency of existence. ...

Interesting theory, MasterMind. I'd like to see some of that research, because I have trouble finding honest and open minded research myself. You address the possibility that our consciousness is not actually a physical phenomenon, i.e. it cannot be linked directly to a specific area of the body or to a certain chemical (although DMT is sometimes referred to as the spirit molecule, and this is also the dream inducing chemical, as far as I understand). So our body stays the same when transitioning from alive to physical death (or to dreams), i.e. does not lose weight when the spirit leaves. That means that consciousness is the focus of awareness/attention of some kind of non-physical into physical reality, thus physical reality might be a big shared lucid dream altogether.

Relating this to the initial question: When 'awake' can be viewed as a big LD, why not have a LD while 'awake'? I don't see anything weird in what you are experiencing, as the only weird thing is experiencing itself. Focusing attention into other realms is not that mystical or uncommon, I think we do that each time we are pondering in memories or in imagination (I mean these realms are not actually stored in the brain, like on a hard drive, but they are accessed through resonance with brain/body frequencies, like MasterMind says). In the end it doesn't matter if you believe in non-physical or would rather call it advanced visualization, the experience of it is a real dream.

You cannot "dream" while awake. That's called hallucinating. The only situation where you dream while awake is due a specific disorder in which the person can be wide awake and still experience dreams. As you may have guess, it's quite a radical experience (and quite some conflict between internal and external sensory input).

Also, one role of serotonin (among other neurotransmitters) is to prevent mental projections to interfere with your central nervous system in which external sensory input is the predominant, and there's pretty good reasons why that happens. That's why you don't really see people talking about "waking life like" visualization. Maybe it's possible, but it's certainly not something you can attain naturally.

There is research suggesting that dreams and non-physical experiences actually aren't dependent on you being in REM sleep, but rather that your focus of awareness is in another frequency of existence. So let's think of the REM sleep as just a way for our mind to easier attain this focus of awareness.

Not trying to pick an argument, but that research seems extremely unreliable Dreams never were dependent on REM sleep to begin in. In fact, quite a significant amount of N-REM dreams are totally indistinguishable from REM dreams. Maybe you could point us that research out and we could discuss it here

Further to what Zoth has said, I am fairly certain there is a part of the brain that actively suppresses the imagery associated with dreams which turns off/down during sleep. I believe that all animal studies exploring the destruction of this area resulted in the death of the subjects.

I wish I knew the specific name for this - this is why I need to start making footnotes in my reading and type up my notes.

Originally Posted by purplepearl678

Has anyone ever experienced this (or had any type of dream awake)? I don't mean average daydreaming, I mean where you actually see, feel, hear, smell, and taste everything you induce while awake. I don't know, maybe it would be super advanced visualization or self-induced hallucinations that you somehow control.

I've done this a few times before but it was random, non-lucid, and only lasted a few seconds. I'd like to know how to do this so if know please give me advice or some links.

This is a state I can get in whenever I am over tired, but content.
The dreams are very short, but clear, and just like a true dream they fade very quickly, and are lost.
As I get older, these dreams/daydreams are getting easier to achieve.
It can be a form of 'Depersonalisation' which is classed as an illness. But then again, so is disagreeing with authority.
So who is to say it is a skill, or an illness.

It isn't research that is focusing on the REM's correlation with Dreams in itself. It's rather experiences from a variety of different people in a lab that is pointing in a direction of a different model of reality.

All the research can be found at The Monroe Institute's webpage: The Monroe Institute | Explore Consciousness - Transform Your Life

Anyway I am not looking for a discussion, I just wanted to show how some belief (theory) can limit and how trying the "impossible" open up your mind for new possibilities.

This may or may not be related, but when one of my LDs were about to end, I could see the dream world in one eye and my room in another. It was very strange.

Yes yes.. Actually this is a coincidence. I just started thinking about this a few weeks ago. I guess you could say I just..remembered it. When I was a kid, about the age of 5 to 15, I used to be able to have extremely vivid daydreams. It's hard to explain but when I daydreamed, I was THERE. I was no longer in class, or in the car, but I was wherever I wanted to be, and I could do anything I wanted to. It was amazing at the time.

I used to think I outgrew the ability to do it though, until now. For a few weeks now I've been trying to do it again. Trying as hard as I possibly could to have one of those daydreams. At first, it was nothing. I would be ripped back to reality in a heartbeat. It was extremely frusturating knowing that I used to have the ability to do something amazing, but I cant do it anymore. But yesterday, I got a little closer. I daydreamed for a good 10 minutes, not completely vivid, but I was "in deeper" if ya know what I mean. It was clearer, and I wasnt distracted by the outside world.

This is why I think now that it's not an ability you grow out of with age, it's an ability you lose through disuse, just like any other skill. With practice, I may be able to get close to what I used to be able to achieve, if not completely.

All this daydreaming, or whatever you wish to label it as, seems to be easier in youth.
There is only reason I have the skill back. I changed my diet.
No more beef, or pork from commercial sources.
I will be starting a thread on this matter in a few weeks, when more results from my little experiments come through.

Seems to me like you are talking about entering a dream straight from waking. If all your senses are in the dream, then you are asleep. Sometimes you can slip into REM without even realizing that you fell asleep and still not realize that you are dreaming. This happens often when hitting the alarm over and over in the morning or during WBTBs, but it can also happen when you take a nap a few hours after waking. There is no gap between waking and sleeping, but you somehow lost consciousness, because you were not lucid. My opinion. I would love to hear more.

Originally Posted by 006

The closest I experienced like this was simple daydreaming while lying in my bed, falling a little asleep, so the daydream got into a dream... but when I tried to control it, instant wakeup.
Interesting topic however, made me curious.

I have had this happen as well. When trying to control it, I would move the wrong body. :/ after getting the same feeling upon waking as that feeling, I thought about stabilizing, but I couldn't move when stabilizing. I thought about it more and realized that I could change everything I was feeling by thought, so I would imagine my hands moving up and rubbing together (Now I just press button, but that is a different story). This would pull me into the dream world completely, and I would then be able to move like "normal" within the dream.

If you get very far into dream yoga then I can teach you a skill I have always known as 'dream trance.' However, it really is an advanced meditation skill, so most need to start much simpler. It is just the skill to change your brain waves conciously, thus allowing a powerful fully amazing use of the visualization centers used in dreams, while awake (?more on awake in a moment). This would be done in a meditation position and takes some time and limited distractions.

Now that I am older and have more knowledge then when this stuff was taught to me, I think I can sum it up in a way that is far less mysterious. I think we can just call this a highly advanced WILD variation and assume that the dream state is taking place in nREM1. Keep in mind Zoth's statement "Dreams never were dependent on REM sleep to begin in. In fact, quite a significant amount of N-REM dreams are totally indistinguishable from REM dreams." and then also Brandon's comment " If all your senses are in the dream, then you are asleep."
If you read about the nREM states, you will find that nREM1 still involves some awareness of the body and the ability to respond if someone adresses you. I assume what is going on with "LDing While Awake" is that I simply can control my brainwave activity and induce a substained nREM1 state, thus allowing dreams, while maintaining perhaps 30% bodily awareness. If I lost all bodily awareness, then Brandon's comment holds,,, I would infact be asleep and just doing a normal WILD.

Not sure exactly what the original poster was describing, but several times later at night reading a book I have immediately slipped Iinto a short vivid dream. Happens so fast it surprises me, and feels instantaneous. I have wondered about this type of experience.

I daydream extremely often and for those moments reality ceases to exist and all my awareness is focused into it. I am able to visualize sight, touch, sound, sometimes smell and taste up to a point where my subconscious kicks in and does the job for me, it's a similar scenario to V[visualization]-WILD. It's quite awesome, but it requires a lot of concentration. I can do that in class, for example, I will just look like someone daydreaming. It's kind of a state of mind between awake and asleep.

Funny, I was just reading about something very similar that was presented originally by Carl Jung called Active Imagination.

With active imagination, you essentially establish a dialogue with the parts of your mind that are usually only available during dreams. In other words, you tap your dreaming mind during waking hours and are able to enjoy the imagery usually reserved for dreams while also being able to converse with your dream-character selves. Or something like that.

I'm not sure if that made any sense, and I personally have never exercised active imagination, but it seemed such a coincidence that I was reading about it at just the same time as when this thread started, I had to share.

Also, if any Jungian psychology-followers out there can better explain his concept, I'd appreciate it...

Originally Posted by SIMDML

I daydream extremely often and for those moments reality ceases to exist and all my awareness is focused into it. I am able to visualize sight, touch, sound, sometimes smell and taste up to a point where my subconscious kicks in and does the job for me, it's a similar scenario to V[visualization]-WILD. It's quite awesome, but it requires a lot of concentration. I can do that in class, for example, I will just look like someone daydreaming. It's kind of a state of mind between awake and asleep.

Your experiences are pretty much exactly what I am talking about. It is impressive you can do this with out specific training!

If I'm relaxed enough I can visualize and feel things very vividly. Definitely helps with MILD.

Sivason, Sageous, thank you; you have given me something to research and aim for.

I like Jung by the way, but don't remember that concept. I will look into it.

I've never been able to fully do what is being described here, but I do a lot of visualization meditation. Nothing special, just inserting myself into old memories and trying to sense everything. Now and then it comes alive to a startling degree; so much so that it usually doesn't last. I always wondered about it, but never really strove for it in particular; until now. I think I may understand what it takes though when you put it in the context of a WILD.

^^ If you want to look into Jung's idea of active imagination, find a copy of his "Memories, Dreams, and Reflections." There's an easier to read description in a book called "Inner Work," by Robert A. Johnson.

Originally Posted by sivason

Your experiences are pretty much exactly what I am talking about. It is impressive you can do this with out specific training!

That's great! An older thread about something similar made me think about it and I found my way of doing it. If you have any peice of advice about helping the subconscious to kick in easier and and faster it would be much appreciated!

It is not easy at first, as you still have so much conscious awareness. The trick is to mentally relax the words in your head, that voice within. It needs to be running in slow motion to give space for the subconscious mind to play with things.

Originally Posted by sivason

It is not easy at first, as you still have so much conscious awareness. The trick is to mentally relax the words in your head, that voice within. It needs to be running in slow motion to give space for the subconscious mind to play with things.

Thanks for the great tip! I'll try that out next time.

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ If you want to look into Jung's idea of active imagination, find a copy of his "Memories, Dreams, and Reflections." There's an easier to read description in a book called "Inner Work," by Robert A. Johnson.

I acquired a copy of MDR yesterday, and it has been about 10 hours now, and I am neglecting all of my responsibilities. This is absolutely fascinating. Many thanks for the recommendation.

Ah yes, I made a thread about this not too long ago, I've been caught up in school so it sort of fell to the wayside (SIMDML has already posted a link to it here) hopefully now that the semester is over I can get around to building the tutorial that I plan to write for it. Let me know if you have any questions and I'd be glad to answer (I LDD daily, and have been for quite a long time so I've got a lot to say)