Abuse Potential - Neglecting Real Life For LD? Only If Per Technical Shortcut?
The question is - do you think, that there is an abuse-potential in LDing in a similar way as with drugs, alcohol, video-gaming, gambling etc.
This is a multiple choice poll!!
Another aspect would be - is there the potential that not the LDing itself, but the time spent to get there - and maybe in vain - in itself can alienate susceptible people from their real lives?
The inspiration to this poll stems from http://www.dreamviews.com/lucid-aids...will-work.html, where there was an extensive off-topic discussion on this - and I promised to make the poll.
All based on a hypothetical technical device, which triggers lucidity without mental preparation or being quite developed in the awareness and insight department to begin with.
So – there are actually two quite different initial situations and the getting there aspect to build an opinion on:
a) LD without the help of technology +/-
b) LD with the help of yet to appear technology +/-
c) Intensive preparation work +/-
I have picked out one of Sageous quotes from the middle of the exchange, since it is advocating in the most clear fashion, what might be the dangers of an easy shortcut to LD.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
^^ I know you did not ask me, but one thought leaped into mind when you asked the question:
If the natural state of nightly sleep included lucid dreaming for all, I think there would be an extreme risk of a great number of people allowing their LD worlds to become their lives' priority, and as they get lost in their own little universes, they would lose touch and emotional ties with their waking-life friends and family, and their lives would become very empty, very closed to the surprises of reality and social activity that encourage mental and spiritual growth.
This sort of thing -- this abandonment of "difficult" things like love, learning, and surprise (and their commensurate joy) already happens to many, many people in waking life without lucid dreaming; I think that if you opened the LD'ing door to those people -- and to the people struggling to keep their lives open to change, love and growth -- you might discover a substantial chunk of the population simply folding up into themselves and socially disappearing.
This is not a new argument, as it has been made on the onsets of (for instance) TV, video games, and the internet. Unfortunately, I believe the power of LD'ing is geometrically greater than the power of all three of those game-changers, combined -- so too would the risks to those who experience it without a good sense of self or mental and spiritual discipline.
I can't imagine anything else being a problem, and the benefits of "everyone" LD'ing might vastly outweigh the risks, but I had that thought and figured I'd share...
I have spoilered the pertinent parts of further posts here - please correct me, if you feel I did you wrong by the way I did it or update - also meaning the above one with that!
Spoiler for on topic quotes from the thread linked above:
Quote:
Originally Posted by FryingMan
If someone can bring LDing with some degree of reliability to the general public with a device they'll make a bazillion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloky
I don't think LD should be for global entertainment ....it should be to achieve inner piece and enlightment ....I don't support this at all ....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Araishu
Lucid dreaming is a tool available to any person. People can find that they have the talent by accident so limiting it to achieve inner peace and enlightenment seems a little bit like you only want people to use it the way you use it. It can be used for so many things, and entertainment is one of them so I don't see why it would be a problem ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by StephL
…
What could be done with lucid dreaming, if "everyone" had access (isnīt that actually the natural state, which would be desirable?), that would cause suffering for individuals or groups of individuals?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
^^ I know you did not ask me, but one thought leaped into mind when you asked the question:
If the natural state of nightly sleep included lucid dreaming for all, I think there would be an extreme risk of a great number of people allowing their LD worlds to become their lives' priority, and as they get lost in their own little universes, they would lose touch and emotional ties with their waking-life friends and family, and their lives would become very empty, very closed to the surprises of reality and social activity that encourage mental and spiritual growth.
This sort of thing -- this abandonment of "difficult" things like love, learning, and surprise (and their commensurate joy) already happens to many, many people in waking life without lucid dreaming; I think that if you opened the LD'ing door to those people -- and to the people struggling to keep their lives open to change, love and growth -- you might discover a substantial chunk of the population simply folding up into themselves and socially disappearing.
This is not a new argument, as it has been made on the onsets of (for instance) TV, video games, and the internet. Unfortunately, I believe the power of LD'ing is geometrically greater than the power of all three of those game-changers, combined -- so too would the risks to those who experience it without a good sense of self or mental and spiritual discipline.
I can't imagine anything else being a problem, and the benefits of "everyone" LD'ing might vastly outweigh the risks, but I had that thought and figured I'd share...
Quote:
Originally Posted by fogelbise
^^Absolutely Sageous, I wholeheartedly agree! The effort it takes and the things I have learned is benefiting me in waking life...things I may not have tried before...realizations I may not have come to for many more years perhaps(thank you, Sageous, for your help by the way!)...If it were too easy, it could be abused like drugs as a way to escape a "miserable life." What a strange juxtaposition(?), it can improve a less-than-ideal life if it comes with effort and self-growth or it can give the opposite effect when it is too easy if it is also abused.
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by StephL
Oh - in a sense I did ask you (Sageous) - and I have been thinking about it before myself, actually - just forgot in this context, because I sensed a completely different line of attack in Karlokyīs posts.
Yeah - why is it,that evolution does not make it easy to reach this state?
Probably because of the reasons you described above - that was basically what I came up with as well.
I have to take my above statement back - or at least put it in very theoretical terms of a mankind farther along the line of development overall - if such a state of affairs would be possible is a completely different question again.
..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Araishu
Although that is a very good point, I don't see what makes those of us who have experienced it by chance and looked it up any different from the general public. The kind of people who are willing to make Lucid Dreaming their only priority in life are most likely already occupied by things like video games and the sort. Lucid dreaming does not cause people to lack feelings of responsibility in real life, it simply gives those who already lack those feelings another medium to escape through.
Lucid dreaming is unimaginably exciting the first few times you achieve it and it's often all you can think about for a few days after. However, after a while it becomes a tool open for use for whatever you want and the obsession is dropped. It becomes a part of your reality rather than becoming your reality. At least, that's what I think anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
All true. But keep in mind that folks (like me as well) who stumble upon LD'ing are likely already intellectually prepared on some level to cope with and work with the novelty and escapism potentials of lucidity.
Because we were able to draw the conclusion that "this is a dream" based on our own existent self-awareness and mental wherewithal, we were able to temper our reaction and make thoughtful decisions about working to learn more, explore more, or walk away, without much negative effect on our waking lives. Not everyone is equipped to do that, and if LD'ing suddenly becomes available to all without any mental or work prerequisites, there likely will be a large group of people who could be swept up by the activity... in an even more effective manner than what happened with TV, the internet, and video games.
Of course I could be wrong...
Quote:
Originally Posted by StephL
I really like that first statement - something to do with justice and equality.
And Sageous is basically saying, if I understand him correctly there - itīs the more potent agens in a variety of contexts of escapism.
And accordingly - the potential damage is significantly higher.
I fully agree on the point of potency - and that with only less than a handful of experiences (as an adult..?).
So - from a glimpse alone.
My question is now though - could not maybe the very act of becoming skilled in the art of LD sort of have a spill-over good effect on waking life quality?
Maybe even most of the cases?
Maybe it can lead people from escaping where ever and however they usually do - towards filling their actual real lives with meaning and awareness over the bridge of evolving their consciousness in LD?
…And - who drops off drops off because of not evolving enough to make it worth it?
So - they can safely go back play video games.
Hm - what is my opinion now??
I do not know.
..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Araishu
The ability to make choices and be responsible for your own actions is the brilliant thing about being conscious. The risk factor is always there with every single choice we make, but that doesn't mean we should not be allowed to make choices for ourselves. If somebody does choose to disassociate from society, that is their choice and they should be free to make it ;)
Mastering LD does have many positive impacts on waking life which is one of the aspects that drew me towards it so it could certainly be seen as good thing if it were to be discovered by more people.
Indeed. If you choose to do so, you keep the skill for the rest of your days. You are in control of how you use it/for what reasons :)
I don't think it's a case of not evolving enough though. Anybody can master it so long as they actually want to. :shadewink:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
…
That's not a bad idea, and though I wonder if we'd be surprised by the results, I have a feeling we'd be enlightened by the subsequent conversation about people's unnecessary but real fears of this sort of takeover.
..
What do I think?
I think you can indeed develop an unhealthy obsession with hunting after lucidity in the first place - esp. if you do not manage for a long stretch and keep trying harder and harder, until it dominates your life.
On the other hand - quite the opposite can happen, too - I believe the preparation, when done in the sense of strengthening awareness, memory and expectations - freeing your imagination can be very beneficial, even if you do not get lucid in the progress.
So - it depends on the how and how much time there.
I do think, LDing in general - like doing it - is beneficial - but I am too much of a novice to have a useful opinion here actually.
I simply do not know the answer to my main question!
So maybe I just do not know of people abusing it - but I am yet to come across such a confession - I have seen not one.
And I think, an artificial triggering with contraptions existing right now wouldnīt get you very far - maybe to the initial realization, but then you also need to grow personally if you want to progress.
There might be future developments, which reach much farther - and there it would be hard to speculate.
Probably less invasive than a full-on artificial virtual reality - being jacked up with your brain into an artificial dream.
Oh - well - there of course the dreams of shared dreaming would be achievable - jack yourself up with others over the internet.
This will probably all come one day - maybe earlier than we think.
But we will always have our inner virtual reality, no electricity or infrastructure needed - and no other people either.
Nobody can take this from you.
But ultimately all of us are alone in our own natural dreams in my view.
For someone like me, I don't feel like I'm obsessed with LDing or have ever been. I think the most appealing feature of LD's is the fact that you can actually improve your waking life by taking control of your conscious dreaming world. Even though people argue that dreams are as real as life, you can feel the significant difference between reality and dreams (at least I know I can). It takes a lot of dedication and work to obtain a consistent lucid dream world, but overall I think the end result improves life.
I don't think LD's can be compared to things like video games (just a comparison of my own). I used to play WoW and felt empowered by my RP character, but my consciousness knew that it was all a game. Just as my consciousness knows (sometimes) when it's a dream, but the options are far more meaningful in dreams than they are in games. What you do in a game doesn't always improve your life, in fact, for many people it damages their lives (from experience). What you do in a lucid dream can truly improve your waking consciousness, improving your life--if you allow it to.
Those are just my thoughts. I can see how the obsession with lucid dreaming can become like an addiction to drugs, but honestly, when considering abuse potential, it stems from a person's life experiences, and their psyche state.
11-13-2013, 04:52 AM
LucasPotter
Personally, I do believe that it's possible to develop a dangerous obsession with lucid dreaming/trying to lucid dream. Whenever depression starts hitting me hard, the first thing that happens is that I sleep a lot. Like twelve-fifteen hours a day. So I have to be careful with how I try to lucid dream, because sleeping for too long ends up triggering that for me (so, for example, I try to avoid naps - unless I really am tired).
I have read about some people who sort of give up on real life and start focusing on their dream lives. It's not hard to understand why if they're expert lucid dreamers. Why wouldn't you want to live in a world where you can be anyone and do anything? So, as I said... it can be dangerous.
Everything in moderation, y'all! ;)
11-13-2013, 06:44 AM
Sageous
Though my opinion on this is already up there somewhere, I'd like to toss in a little more about the "natural" question in the poll, just in case it wasn't clear:
By "natural," StephL wasn't suggesting that there may be a problem with what we know here at DV as natural lucid dreamers -- those few special folk who become aware in dreams without trying. Though I guess you could ask the question in that context, the initial context (from that other thread) was one that asked what would happen if suddenly, by new medicine or machinery, everyone could LD without trying and without mental preparation. In other words, you just pay your money, get your "DreamBox 650" or maybe a "Somnambulex" pill, go to sleep and bam, you're lucid.
LD'ing without effort seems to me to be a pretty good target for abuse, especially given the unmatchable levels of escapism it can endow on a bored user. Or I could be wrong, and maybe we're ready as a society for this sort of consciousness option.
11-13-2013, 01:03 PM
StephL
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suena
For someone like me, I don't feel like I'm obsessed with LDing or have ever been. I think the most appealing feature of LD's is the fact that you can actually improve your waking life by taking control of your conscious dreaming world. Even though people argue that dreams are as real as life, you can feel the significant difference between reality and dreams (at least I know I can). It takes a lot of dedication and work to obtain a consistent lucid dream world, but overall I think the end result improves life.
I don't think LD's can be compared to things like video games (just a comparison of my own). I used to play WoW and felt empowered by my RP character, but my consciousness knew that it was all a game. Just as my consciousness knows (sometimes) when it's a dream, but the options are far more meaningful in dreams than they are in games. What you do in a game doesn't always improve your life, in fact, for many people it damages their lives (from experience). What you do in a lucid dream can truly improve your waking consciousness, improving your life--if you allow it to.
Those are just my thoughts. I can see how the obsession with lucid dreaming can become like an addiction to drugs, but honestly, when considering abuse potential, it stems from a person's life experiences, and their psyche state.
Unfortunately I am not yet any proficient - but I tend to think like you.
I suppose, that there is a danger in getting obsessed with trying to, and I guess the sole fact, that you do simulate other beings should keep you from setting the LD world in a higher place than RL.
If you are - say in a nasty prison, where the last you want are the people in your real life - might be just the thing to do, though.
I actually know somebody who learned to LD while he was in prison for a while in Poland.
He almost forgot about doing it - now I reminded him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LucasPotter
Personally, I do believe that it's possible to develop a dangerous obsession with lucid dreaming/trying to lucid dream. Whenever depression starts hitting me hard, the first thing that happens is that I sleep a lot. Like twelve-fifteen hours a day. So I have to be careful with how I try to lucid dream, because sleeping for too long ends up triggering that for me (so, for example, I try to avoid naps - unless I really am tired).
I have read about some people who sort of give up on real life and start focusing on their dream lives. It's not hard to understand why if they're expert lucid dreamers. Why wouldn't you want to live in a world where you can be anyone and do anything? So, as I said... it can be dangerous.
Everything in moderation, y'all! ;)
That was actually a line of thinking in the back of my mind - thank you - and I wish you all the best for your battle with depression!
I hope you have people you can turn to, if it strikes you badly once more - donīt shy away from taking up even professional help.
Take good care of yourself!
And yepp to your last sentence!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
Though my opinion on this is already up there somewhere, I'd like to toss in a little more about the "natural" question in the poll, just in case it wasn't clear:
By "natural," StephL wasn't suggesting that there may be a problem with what we know here at DV as natural lucid dreamers -- those few special folk who become aware in dreams without trying.
Though I guess you could ask the question in that context, the initial context (from that other thread) was one that asked what would happen if suddenly, by new medicine or machinery, everyone could LD without trying and without mental preparation. In other words, you just pay your money, get your "DreamBox 650" or maybe a "Somnambulex" pill, go to sleep and bam, you're lucid.
LD'ing without effort seems to me to be a pretty good target for abuse, especially given the unmatchable levels of escapism it can endow on a bored user. Or I could be wrong, and maybe we're ready as a society for this sort of consciousness option.
Thank you Sageous - you are right - I meant natural in the sense of not using drugs or machinery, which would theoretically allow easy access.
I am not so convinced about people getting lucid without wanting or even against their will - I do sort of not really believe this.
Sure - somebody doing it all their lives - like you? - have probably a glimmer in all their dreams, which can be zoomed in on and full lucidity will commence. But this is not "without wanting".
So - yeah - thatīs not the topic here.
Just to round this - which is not the topic here - up a bit: A "natural" - meaning a person - is somebody proficient and very talented to me.
That does say nothing, about when they started, but of course somebody will get more and more of a "natural" with practice.
Meaning - the more she practises - the more natural it will come to her.
When I see it in darts - these "naturals" often are nothing more, and nothing less than obsessed with darts - they practise and practise and enjoy it - and for years on end.
To everybody elseīs dismal - including the really bloody novices, which might in turn someday be called naturals - most of them have completely forgotten, how and even that they have developed a technique.
How I hate their "just throw" and "thinking is the enemy" - upon deeper questioning - most do remember after a while and can suddenly give tips - ha!!
There is the point, where you found your groove - and interestingly the most disruptive thing to do then is really let your mind chatter stuff at you - but thinking and analysing is important in practice..
Thank you Sageous - you are right - I meant natural in the sense of not using drugs or machinery, which would theoretically allow easy access.
I am not so convinced about people getting lucid without wanting or even against their will - I do sort of not really believe this.
Sure - somebody doing it all their lives - like you? - have probably a glimmer in all their dreams, which can be zoomed in on and full lucidity will commence. But this is not "without wanting".
So - yeah - thatīs not the topic here.
Oh!
Sorry, I misunderstood; my bad! I knew I should've PM'd you...:shakehead2:
Never mind!
11-14-2013, 12:13 AM
StephL
1 Attachment(s)
Oh - I think, we do understand each other quite nicely in general! Attachment 5874
11-14-2013, 12:45 AM
JoannaB
I think that there is a potential for abuse with everything without moderation. However, I am not sure I would blame LDing but rather the lack of moderation. Someone who focuses on LD to an extent where it interferes with waking life has issues, but chances are high that this person would have these kind of issues regardless and if it were not for LDing, they would obsessively focus on something else. And when I say they, perhaps I should say "I" instead, since I tend to have issues with unhealthy obsessive focus on hobbies, and which hobby it is changes from time to time but the obsessive focusing behavior reoccurs.
11-14-2013, 01:46 AM
LucidSandman
I think my experience with lucid dreaming is somewhat the opposite of what most experiences are. When I first heard about it from a friend, I was so fascinated at the possibilities. I would stay up until midnight on school nights reading countless articles and tutorials on the internet so that I knew every possibility and every outcome possible. The very idea of lucid dreaming drove me nuts (In a good way). I tried and I tried and I tried. Then came the 3 second LDs. I was gaining so much hope and I was so encouraged. I would say mantras every night to remind me to stabilize. Then BOOM - My first prolonged lucid dream! I couldn't wait to tell my friends about my accomplishments. but then I fell out of habit, not wanting to put in the effort, to live the lifestyle of lucid dreaming. It felt as if I had achieved my goal and that I had no drive to strive even though I still loved the idea of lucid dreaming. And after neglecting the practice for an amount of time, I completely forgot about lucid dreaming.
Now and then I'll come back to check the forum, maybe message gab (Hey gab!), but my fascination and addiction to lucid dreaming has never been as strong as the time period before my first lucid dream.
Edit:
To summarize, I was more addicted to lucid dreaming before I experienced than I was, or am, after my first experience. I also don't think anything bad could really come out of it except 2 opposite extremes - too little or too much sleep.
11-14-2013, 05:18 AM
Tradl3s
What does this conclude to
11-14-2013, 03:04 PM
StephL
1 Attachment(s)
I donīt know, what this concludes to Tradl - we will see.
It stems from differences in viewing the hypothetical scenario of LUCI - this device, which supposedly would have detected your REM sleep and given you an acoustic message to tell you you were dreaming.
As you can see above - Sageous expressed his worries as to people with such easy access would be in huge danger to neglect their real lives and more and more disappear into their dreams - leading to a worse state than what todayīs means of escapism do to people who are very unhappy with RL.
I personally do not see it such darkly - I even posed the possibility that a person, who just comes to a very easy entry-point, will work on her awareness and memory and in general develop her personality in a way that will have a positive spill-over into her life.
You can follow the initial dialogue in the spoiler.
In this exchange I became curious - there were several different viewpoints in exchange - and I thought, that such a poll might shed a light on what people on here think in general in this respect.
As said - it was about using a short-cut and if that would make a difference - but while I was at it - I tried to pose the question somewhat broader.
I prefer to view it positively - but I am a novice with a handful of experiences only.
But I do acknowledge that LD is an incredibly powerful thing - there is nothing out there in my opinion, that comes even close to it.
It might be, that one day virtual reality per technology, which also taps into all your imagination and inner content in a way, could be similarly powerful - even with the possibility to really share this VR with somebody.
But that is still science fiction.
This science-fiction scenario I describe - when you find it in books - mostly characters in such spend their lives hooked up to life-support machines, and jacked in 24/7 - in a voluntary matrix setting if you will.
Well - draw your own conclusions! I find the results quite interesting up to now - also surprising..
I personally prefer to expect the best-case scenario until further notice.
If i'm understanding this thread right then i'll say "meh" i't depends greatly person to person. me? id love to spend way more time in my dreams & lucid dreams. it's way more interesting than life in general. but then again i'm messed in the head :/. for others well don't let it lead you to kill yourself or stop going to your job, chores, etc... as that can fuck up your life big time.
11-15-2013, 10:59 AM
StephL
Ah - now I have something to contribute first-hand from last night.
I am on a "sabbatical" work-wise for a little more of a while and I tend to sleep more than I need.
So - I had my first longer lucid since joining up on here last night and it was so great and exhilarating that - I stood up after "only" 7.5 hours to a fantastic mood and the desire to tell my husband and you on here and not oversleep!
Ha!
Positive effect I call that!!
11-15-2013, 11:04 AM
Lancell
I always think to myself that there is a risk, and every time I LD is when I have a messed up sleep cycle and/or sleep way to much during the day. So if I'm free from work and have nothing better to do, and being bored out of my mind always makes me tired, I can generally LD a lot, but then again I basically sleep most of the day and the rest of the day I'm really tired. Also fear and horridness from hear hallucinations I get in my sleep paralysis and phantom pain kind of make me angst.
This is also one part of why I joined this forum, I kind of want to know myself if it's kind of dangerous to LD, especially trough the way I do it (entering sleep paralysis). I still have a lot about sleep paralysis to tell that probably makes people worried. Hell it makes me worried.
11-23-2013, 03:24 AM
Zoth
Humans have always been fascinated by the possibility of virtual reality. We went as far as to integrate it in high-risk professions, education, recreation uses (gaming for example), and we know for sure we're bound to develop it further and further. Short tip about videogames: check the anime Sword art online, it's basically a spiritual representation of the use of "induced lucid dreaming" into a video game context, and it's just great ^^
Alienation is inevitable, especially because as we know (internet), it's not necessary that we're fully immersed in the experience to become addicted. The simple fact that we can access a world that allows us to reshape our identity is enough it seems to me. But lucid dreaming...
Would certainly be a higher issue. The problem is that unlike any videogame you acquire in the market, you could really go sandbox, as deep as it can get. Lucid dreamers learn relatively fast how to perform control at a basic level, especially specific elements-seeking. Since the power of expectation works so good with desire (and we can talk desire in so many ways here), it would be really easy to recreate the best moment of your life, and then do it again, and again, and again. This infinite sandbox scenario would allow people to essentially live their lives exactly how they wanted to. Let's see how lucid dreaming still provides a framework for a relatively "realistic" life story:
- Dream characters seem to possess sentient behavior.
- Dream plots can present themselves different even when expectation is performed at higher level (I recall Hukif DJ's here, anyone xD?)
- Lucidity is not a fixed degree of consciousness, so it's variations would allow a group of...hmm...let's call it meta-consciousness that would diversify the experience (living life, reflecting life, that sort of thing if I'm making sense).
As we can guess, there would be many drawbacks though. Constant lucid dreaming would influence sleep patterns, and disregulation of serotonin levels and other issues that we can't really predict at this point (you increase the risk of cardiovascular problems with excess of sleep). Even if we could recreate the specific point on the spectrum of wakefulness/sleep, and come out with something in the lines of "lucid hallucinations", that still would have some pretty negative consequences in the long-term. Besides, the problems themselves with maintaining this state for an apparent infinite amount of time would cause issues as well.
Can't even imagine how so many people would become hooked up on it 0o
11-23-2013, 06:27 AM
Sageous
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoth
Short tip about videogames: check the anime Sword art online, it's basically a spiritual representation of the use of "induced lucid dreaming" into a video game context, and it's just great
Hey, I watch that every week; cool.... wait a second... It was supposed to be about the "use of 'induced lucid dreaming' into a video game context?" I thought I was just forming that impression out of my own LDer bias; that only makes it better, knowing that was intended.
Quote:
The problem is that unlike any videogame you acquire in the market, you could really go sandbox, as deep as it can get. Lucid dreamers learn relatively fast how to perform control at a basic level, especially specific elements-seeking. Since the power of expectation works so good with desire (and we can talk desire in so many ways here), it would be really easy to recreate the best moment of your life, and then do it again, and again, and again. This infinite sandbox scenario would allow people to essentially live their lives exactly how they wanted to.
Now there is the caveat of caveats, I think. The temptation to relive only those "best moments" -- no, forget temptation, let's just go straight to irresistible need -- would not only cause unprepared sandbox diggers to produce loops of their favorite moments (I'm having memories of a certain scene from the movie "Brainstorms," BTW), but that would be all they would produce, eschewing any real creativity or inward exploration in the name of those simply-filled desires... the roots of addiction indeed!
Nice that you're back, Zoth, your kind of input is deeply needed on these pages!
Would certainly be a higher issue.
The problem is that unlike any videogame you acquire in the market, you could really go sandbox, as deep as it can get.
Lucid dreamers learn relatively fast how to perform control at a basic level, especially specific elements-seeking.
"Specific elements-seeking" - could you do me the favour and define or describe this for me, please?
Sounds interesting.
Quote:
Since the power of expectation works so good with desire (and we can talk desire in so many ways here), it would be really easy to recreate the best moment of your life, and then do it again, and again, and again.
Really - simply hit return again and again?
Is this, what happens to everybody after a bit of more experience?
I mean there sure is a healthy area for this - but I find it frightening as well.
I hope, I will not overly indulge in such a thing.
Quote:
This infinite sandbox scenario would allow people to essentially live their lives exactly how they wanted to. Let's see how lucid dreaming still provides a framework for a relatively "realistic" life story:
So then it is important to take care not to substitute real life quality with LD, but to enrich and enlarge and expand it.
But I am too much of a novice to have an adequate idea.
Quote:
- Dream characters seem to possess sentient behavior.
- Dream plots can present themselves different even when expectation is performed at higher level (I recall Hukif DJ's here, anyone xD?)
- Lucidity is not a fixed degree of consciousness, so it's variations would allow a group of...hmm...let's call it meta-consciousness that would diversify the experience (living life, reflecting life, that sort of thing if I'm making sense).
Do you not feel lonely, in a way - can that be completely over-ridden? Or is it maybe even regularly over-ridden?
And - do you mean to go into a sort of half-lucidity - you steer yourself into your favoured setting and then let the notion, that you are dreaming slip from the scheme?
....
Quote:
Can't even imagine how so many people would become hooked up on it 0o
..
Now there is the caveat of caveats, I think. The temptation to relive only those "best moments" -- no, forget temptation, let's just go straight to irresistible need -- would not only cause unprepared sandbox diggers to produce loops of their favorite moments (I'm having memories of a certain scene from the movie "Brainstorms," BTW), but that would be all they would produce, eschewing any real creativity or inward exploration in the name of those simply-filled desires... the roots of addiction indeed!
Nice that you're back, Zoth, your kind of input is deeply needed on these pages!
So are you saying it is absolutely natural - more - almost not avoidable, highly addictive - to get into this pattern of re-living of good memories? Or is it re-constructing a fictional past?
What do you consider as a good preparation? Attachment 5968
11-23-2013, 10:25 AM
TheJester
I have a story relating to this, if any wants to take the time to listen. It's somewhat lengthy, but I have a point to prove.
I first started lucid dreaming a few years back, in a time that probably wasn't the best choice to do so. It was at a time where I'd just been feeling bad in general, and it seemed like an interesting thing to get into. Unfortunately, and coincidentally, at almost the same time I began lucid dreaming I actually began falling into more of a depression, which ended up being very major depression. As the depression got worse and worse, I began to become more and more obsessed with lucid dreaming, not just as a thing to try out but a place where I could craft and entirely separate world, and the real world would basically just be a host for it.
Even as I write it now, I realize how ridiculous it was. It seems like I was being a complete idiot. But due to the issues I was having at the time, it seemed as if there was no alternative. I couldn't see a different reality other than the one that I could make myself, a perfect one where the issues of my real world would become irrelevant. No matter what I was doing, ever, ever, I was constantly thinking about lucid dreaming, thinking about the beautiful people I could bring to light, about the beautiful places I could experience, about the beautiful things I could do. I'm sure at times this helped my awareness out, but I was extremely unsuccessful. When I first started, I was ever patient, yet subconsciously doubtful of myself as a whole. As I progressed, this turned into impatience, and the second you become impatient everything collapses.
As my frustration increased, I became less and less successful. So as you can imagine, it became a never ending loop. It got worse and worse. There were many times I became lucid - but I almost never retained any control of myself or the dream, and whenever I did get any kind of remote control, it lasted a few seconds and then disappeared. I can remember only one time where I truly had any kind of success. My depression, and another issue, a bad case of chronic pain, escalated more and more. Both the depression and pain ran their course for a few years. All along, I relied on lucid dreaming to lift me up and save me one day - maybe I could finally meet the people I always had wished to, see the places I'd wanted.
Eventually, my practices of lucid dreaming collapsed. We figured out, after years, a method to make my depression gone (if but hidden), and, just as well, my pain. It's been many months now of feeling amazing, more happy than I've felt in such a long time. This is my first post back in a while, I've recently been considering going back to lucid dreaming, but mainly, my biggest two worries are if the medication I'm on will disrupt it, and how I will get back in the schedule of it.
Anyway, I know that that whole thing was way too long, and in some ways irrelevant, but I guess I just wanted to get that out. My message is to the people who rely on lucid dreaming, or attempting it, to make themselves feel any kind of hope. Please, please, please note that I am absolutely in no way saying that lucid dreaming is a bad or dangerous thing to do - it's one of the most absolutely amazing, beautiful, terrific, and mind boggling things I've ever discovered, and there is a reason I am going back for another shot. I just want to say, that if there is anyone who is obsessed with lucid dreaming as an escape from reality, because their life is a place they can't stand, that it likely isn't the best option. Most any veteran or even rookie LD'er could tell you that patience is key. Throw in desperation, or despair, or sorrow, or frustration, and you'll not only destroy your chances of successfully lucid dreaming, but destroy any hope you may have in the real world. Lucid dreaming is not a crutch.
If you've read this far, then I thank you for your time, and I hope you understand why I wrote all of this. Lucid dreaming means a lot to me. I hope maybe, if there is by some off chance someone like I was, they'll potentially understand what I mean. Lucid dreaming is not something you get by being desperate for it. You get it by being patient and understanding of it. It's time consuming and has many rewards to reap, and if you are not willing to give it that time, to nurture it and grow it, you will destroy it. It's like stomping on newly planted soil, rather than slowing molding it into place. Thank you for reading all of this, I'm afraid I may have taken the original point of this poll too far, but I guess I just had a lot on my mind that I thought could be of support. I appreciate people reading this very much.
11-23-2013, 02:24 PM
JoannaB
Ah, see I think lucid dream practice is actually a great cure for depression, but of course not using the desperation approach or escape from real world - that won't work as you point out. What I believe will work though is increasing self awareness in waking life to allow for lucid dream success, and some of the same changes needed to lead to successful lucid dreams also are the same one's needed to combat depression: much improved self awareness, self confidence and intensions and positive expectations, substituting productive short term and long term improvement goals instead of unproductive obsessive overanalysis of issues(so common to depression). A lot of the depression fighting is needed to get successful at lucid dreaming, and so those two goals can work hand in hand.
Then once one is successful at lucid dreaming one can use it for further self empowerment and facing issues face on and improving one's attitude and positive awareness in ways that carry over into real life.
Not escaping into lucid dreams and not separating them out but relying on waking self improvements for LD improvements, and then building on LD success to achieve more success in waking life as well.
For me this is still a goal and very much a work in progress. I seemed well on my way to achieving some success with this up to July, then I backslid, and now I am working on building up again.
Just like with lucid dreaming with depression combat, self awareness is key: noticing the cause and effect, learning what makes one worse and what makes one better, noticing the negative thoughts and feelings and turning them around.
11-23-2013, 02:55 PM
dutchraptor
Lucid dreaming started as a way to escape reality for me. Life was boring and nothing went on and then...bam I discovered lucid dreaming. Had an absolute awesome time, some of the best memories of my life are from my first few lucids. I was lucky thoguh, because lucid dreaming gave me a much clearer out look on life. It changed my life more than I could put in text.
It could have gone the other way, unlikely but still a possibility.
Lucid dreaming really is analogous to gaming, some people can enjoy it in moderation, others get caught up in it. Most of the time it won't lead to depression, and in my case it can even cure mild depression and help sad people learn a new way of life.
In the end I think lucid dreaming has its dangers, but compared to drugs, games or even books it's relatively safe.
Edit: note that I am talking about natural lucid dreams, once they become readily available no one knows what exactly will be the consequences. I still don't think most people would get more depressed than they are now.
11-23-2013, 03:29 PM
Zoth
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Hey, I watch that every week; cool.... wait a second... It was supposed to be about the "use of 'induced lucid dreaming' into a video game context?" I thought I was just forming that impression out of my own LDer bias; that only makes it better, knowing that was intended.
You do? Nice :D No clue in all honestly....probably just my confirmation bias talking, because I found nothing about the author's inspiration. It's easy to many "possible" references to lucid dreaming in the anime though, that's why I went a bit ahead of myself by talking about it like that :x One of the biggest moments that relate to lucid dreaming imo is when the main character is against the "killing of non-playable characters". If we advocate for dream characters to be mere mental representations (as intelligent and "alive" they might seem), then we could point him out as "not so lucid", because he doesn't understand that there are no consequences in that "killing". Or maybe he has a whole different reason 0o
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Really - simply hit return again and again?
Is this, what happens to everybody after a bit of more experience?
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forget temptation, let's just go straight to irresistible need -- would not only cause unprepared sandbox diggers to produce loops of their favorite moments (I'm having memories of a certain scene from the movie "Brainstorms," BTW), but that would be all they would produce, eschewing any real creativity or inward exploration in the name of those simply-filled desires... the roots of addiction indeed!
It kinda reminds me of that experiment with the pleasure center, where the rat just kept pushing the lewer to get a huge pleasure. One thing I wonder though: could you really get addicted to a specific memory in a lucid dream? I mean, wouldn't you get bored of reliving your best birthday over and over, in the same way as you build tolerance for a drug? Desensitization would be inevitable. But to again dwell in the dangerous powers of lucid dreaming, we're not talking about a single memory. Because the deterministic level of the experience is almost non-existant right? I read a book and interpret the story, but I can only go from there. As for a lucid dream, I can literally change every single element that compose the experience and twist until it satisfies me. But that has to end at some point right? Which brings us to a big question: if you were omni-potent, could you be happy?
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"Specific elements-seeking" - could you do me the favour and define or describe this for me, please?
Sounds interesting.
Everyone is influenced by some specific desires when they start lucid dreaming. The most famous one is probably the sexual drive, which can actually become an obstacle to many people. Others simply get engaged on the moment (especially if it relates to some sort of adrenalish rush scenario), but this all amounts to what Robert Waggoner defined as "Lucid Zombie" Here you can find the article about this (I think somewhat underrated!) obstacle to lucid dreaming improvement. It's on page 17 btw.
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So then it is important to take care not to substitute real life quality with LD, but to enrich and enlarge and expand it.
But I am too much of a novice to have an adequate idea.
*Deletes previous big answer, and thinks about it a bit more* I'd say you define what's important in a lucid dream, but surely (can we say "surely" Sageous? I'd like to think yes, and that it's not some other psychological factor that is really responsible for it) there are many more advantages when you tackle lucid dreaming as a tool for personal growth and transcendence. We know for sure that lucid dreaming has a positive indirect effect on the brain (mindfulness and/or meditation), but where to go from there...I guess only you can answer yourself in this one :)
(maybe a discussion for other topic, but could lucid dreaming be the ultimate self-affirmation tool? If you're largerly defined by your experiences, who are you once you define your own experiences? I'd say you would be something like this:
It may seem that this is already happens with life, but like mentioned above, this would be essentially determinism-free, which could produce way more radical changes)
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Do you not feel lonely, in a way - can that be completely over-ridden? Or is it maybe even regularly over-ridden?
I'm not completely sure I understood the question, so let me know if not. Do you mean to be able to abstract yourself in the dream while lucid? Well, that is certainly present in some part of the way (especially in the beginning, when people tend to distantiate themselves so much from the dream they end waking up), and I think that to some degree you are indeed lonely, but maybe it's a matter of perspective you know? I mean, yes, I doubt anyone can grasp my experiences, but like this great quote from waking life:
What is like... frustration? Or what is anger or love? When I say love, the sound comes out of my mouth and it hits the other person's ear, travels through this byzantine conduit in their brain through their memories of love or lack of love, and they register what I'm saying and they say yes, they understand. But how do I know they understand? Because words are inert. They're just symbols. They're dead, you know? And so much of our experience is intangible. So much of what we perceive cannot be expressed. It's unspeakable.
I guess I like to pretend that there is a place for everything, and maybe it's actually nice to have your own corner of the universe. How do you people feel about this?
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And - do you mean to go into a sort of half-lucidity - you steer yourself into your favoured setting and then let the notion, that you are dreaming slip from the scheme?
Yes, to some point. It reminds me of this topic in some way. It's more like you stretch the concept of lucidity, "knowing you are dreaming" >>>><<<<<< "understanding you are dreaming". This alone can have significant impact on things like dream control, immersion, and even perception of the whole experience (and what it means). I gotta wrap this up though, I'm late for work xD
11-23-2013, 06:07 PM
Sageous
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoth
I'd say you define what's important in a lucid dream, but surely (can we say "surely" Sageous? I'd like to think yes, and that it's not some other psychological factor that is really responsible for it) there are many more advantages when you tackle lucid dreaming as a tool for personal growth and transcendence.
Well, I would say "surely." The path to successful LD'ing, especially of the advanced variety, is paved with introspection, self-awareness, strengthening of "quality" skills like memory, discipline, creativity, and focus. All this stuff will surely help improve your waking-life too, I think. Now the real question to ask here, I suppose, is whether people pursuing LD's were already inclined to improve all these things anyway, even if LD'ing never existed. In other words, we might all already be wired in a way that happens to encourage us to desire LD'ing, but we were all likely to take some similar path regardless.
So we may already be mentally prepared from the start to pursue LD'ing "responsibly," or perhaps with no real interest in doing, say, the same thing over and over. But what about the people who were not so pre-wired, who are introduced to LD'ing through machines or drugs, with no need for mental prep? I think it would be in that type of LD'er that you would find problems with abuse and addiction. In a sense, at the moment we might be doing an apples to oranges comparison, and the "oranges" haven't joined us yet!
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maybe a discussion for other topic, but could lucid dreaming be the ultimate self-affirmation tool?
If you're largerly defined by your experiences, who are you once you define your own experiences? I'd say you would be something like this:
I'm not sure I understand this: your picture seems to be one of a self-referential trap, where you use only your own experiences and memories to build your "Self," which would indeed always lead you back to where you started. But the captions along the stairs seem to imply positive growth, which is a good thing. What did I miss?
Aside from that, yes, a purely self-referential life would likely prevent real growth and stymie imagination and probably get old real fast. Indeed, unless you are an incredibly creative person with a lot of powerful memories or an innate need to be surprised, a loop like this would eventually be spiritually disastrous as well, I think. As the herding beasts we are, we currently define ourselves in a large way by our interactions with others; take that section of experience away, or, worse, replace it with an experience that never changes, and I think a lot of potential personality will fly out the window -- oh, and you'd be pretty damn bored, too!
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If you were omni-potent, could you be happy?
Yup.
11-23-2013, 07:25 PM
Zoth
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Well, I would say "surely." The path to successful LD'ing, especially of the advanced variety, is paved with introspection, self-awareness, strengthening of "quality" skills like memory, discipline, creativity, and focus. All this stuff will surely help improve your waking-life too, I think. Now the real question to ask here, I suppose, is whether people pursuing LD's were already inclined to improve all these things anyway, even if LD'ing never existed. In other words, we might all already be wired in a way that happens to encourage us to desire LD'ing, but we were all likely to take some similar path regardless.
So let's picture it? Let's assume that through some sort of specific brain activation we could induce lucidity (and by lucidity, we could use a practical definition such as " same self-reflective, reasoning and memory retrieval state as the waking life", even though that is not the whole pie). What would be different:
- No need for any memory related practice;
- Patter-recognition (as one of the means for getting lucid) would already be implied when the brain activation took place;
- Mindfulness/self-awareness: now this one is tricky. We all know that lucidity can go both ways, but for the sake of simplicity let's assume that we had a pre-determined amount of time with the same pattern of brain activation. We would still have problems because of individual brain differences...can a veteran with low lucidity control the dream better than a beginner with low lucidity? (I'm assuming that lucidity and control are correlated, but others might disagree). So maybe this last point would still be present on the "path" for lucid dreaming.
So quickly it seems to be apparent that many of the benefits we could say that carry over to the waking life, already come from the waking life. So what's left in the lucid dream? Certainly, all the experiences of self-discovery and all that they relate to (including creativity), but many of the elements we associate with lucid dreaming would be gone in an instant. Kinda scary isn't it 0o?
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In other words, we might all already be wired in a way that happens to encourage us to desire LD'ing, but we were all likely to take some similar path regardless.
Or maybe the journey is all about destination and not the trip ^^ The image of lucid dreaming certainly would change a lot if we had a "quick and easy way" to reach it, which already seems to be happening at some point (all the onironauts against the use of drugs to reach lucidity).
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I'm not sure I understand this: your picture seems to be one of a self-referential trap, where you use only your own experiences and memories to build your "Self," which would indeed always lead you back to where you started. But the captions along the stairs seem to imply positive growth, which is a good thing. What did I miss?
My confusion regarding that positive growth and it's an illusion or not. In one side, the integration of a new experience (because an experience is always new in some way), would make that growth real, meaning you'd never return to the same Self. But if you think about it, it's a dependent creation, because you're reinventing from your former self. Or in other words, you'd always be stuck being you (therefore the pentrose).
12-27-2013, 04:54 PM
StephL
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoth
...
It kinda reminds me of that experiment with the pleasure center, where the rat just kept pushing the lewer to get a huge pleasure. One thing I wonder though: could you really get addicted to a specific memory in a lucid dream? I mean, wouldn't you get bored of reliving your best birthday over and over, in the same way as you build tolerance for a drug?
Desensitization would be inevitable.
But to again dwell in the dangerous powers of lucid dreaming, we're not talking about a single memory. ..Which brings us to a big question: if you were omni-potent, could you be happy?
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Originally Posted by StephL
Do you not feel lonely, in a way - can that be completely over-ridden? Or is it maybe even regularly over-ridden?
I'm not completely sure I understood the question, so let me know if not. Do you mean to be able to abstract yourself in the dream while lucid? Well, that is certainly present in some part of the way (especially in the beginning, when people tend to distantiate themselves so much from the dream they end waking up), and I think that to some degree you are indeed lonely, but maybe it's a matter of perspective you know?
I meant it differently.
You are surely right with the desensitization - but up to then - I strongly doubt that it is a good idea.
If I would replay old happy memories over and over - how can I first of all not become unhappy, because I remind myself of what I do not have anymore in real life.
And secondly - if I simulate a person for this re-playing - I will always be aware, that this person is not real - that ultimately I have created it and it follows my whim.
So - lets say I replay a scene with a lost loved person - lets say, somebody who died - will I not feel lonely from knowing, it is not a real person, I play at enjoying time with?
This to Sageous as well..
lf though - I would manage to give up full lucidity for that episode - so that I forget about having created that character - then I would not feel lonely in that dream anymore.
But upon waking up - I guess I would be really sad, because this person would still be dead - but now I have her freshly in my mind again - to all the more miss her.
We have the drug metaphor already - so maybe this would be like a come-down from an inebriation?
Waiting for the next fix - the next LD all day and neglect life for this mere illusoriness?
Also - no - I would not want to be omnipotent, because if I would be - all other people would be mere DCs - no new input, no surprises, no company - I could kill and re-animate people - run them differently - make them illusions like that ultimately - playthings.
Nope - not in the least tempted.
Neither by total immortality - I want extreme longevity - but also the ability to kill myself eventually.
12-31-2013, 12:35 PM
TheJester
To be honest, I think that if you got a lucid dream that matched your love for certain things so perfectly, then it would never get old. I think when you get profound experiences, thats when desensitizing occurs. If you got a dream a certain way, to where you absolutely feel pure joy by it, yet weren't overwhelmed in ecstasy, then each time going back would be like going home, in a way. I mean, of course, most experiences would probably get old eventually - but I believe that you could get a dream to last a long, long, long time before really getting old.
