NREM reality checks

Hey guys, this is a bit of a thought challenge I have for you guys.

I began thinking about this after reading Nfri's thread http://www.dreamviews.com/wake-initi...in-method.html, and in particular, Sageous's thread on delta sleep: http://www.dreamviews.com/beyond-dre...lta-sleep.html. It seems that several of us on the forums are interested in being lucid during this very interesting part of the night, and yet we also, collectively on average, seem to have very few experiences with this state of awareness.

This seems to be more or less the norm:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3x7uz3afKk

Stephen LaBerge, someone I think most of us can agree is an experienced oneironaut, says he has had "a few experiences." Sageous mentions (correct me if I'm wrong :sageous1:) that he has had "dozens" of experiences--coming from someone who has had thousands of lucid dreams. And if you take a moment to Google lucid dreaming, and compare that to "lucid deep sleep" or whatever you choose to call it . . . well, yeah, seems like the world at large does not know about (or cannot fathom the benefits of) sleep yoga.

I am guessing the difficulty in attaining lucid NREM and delta is the fact that there is no visual imagery and no narrative (two things human beings rely heavily upon understand their world and make meaning out of it), and so one must normally enter via consciously falling asleep (otherwise known as WILD, but here would be more Wake Initiated Lucid Delta :tongue:). But I am guessing there are other ways, and I am wondering what you guys think would be some good methods or triggers for entering NREM lucidly. Something I plan on practicing during naps is, "The next time I think about lucid dreaming, I'll realize I'm asleep." I tried to fall asleep consciously today (failed), and awoke remembering distinct thoughts--all about lucid dreaming. Not sure if these were sleep thoughts or waking thoughts, but I feel it is a start!

Delta sleep lucid dreams.

I have never had one so far, but I have read some experiences and they seem pretty awesome. Peaceful. Tranquil!

As far as entering one of these dreams, I'm guessing having a sense of body would be a good method, but I am just guessing.

If you can incorporate feeling a body into your usual reality checks, you could eventually trigger it? Not sure.

Delta sleep is a lot different from REM in terms of dreaming, so I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination!

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Originally Posted by ThreeCat

I am guessing the difficulty in attaining lucid NREM and delta is the fact that there is no visual imagery and no narrative (two things human beings rely heavily upon understand their world and make meaning out of it), and so one must normally enter via consciously falling asleep (otherwise known as WILD, but here would be more Wake Initiated Lucid Delta :tongue:). But I am guessing there are other ways, and I am wondering what you guys think would be some good methods or triggers for entering NREM lucidly. Something I plan on practicing during naps is, "The next time I think about lucid dreaming, I'll realize I'm asleep." I tried to fall asleep consciously today (failed), and awoke remembering distinct thoughts--all about lucid dreaming. Not sure if these were sleep thoughts or waking thoughts, but I feel it is a start!

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I think you already nailed the RC problem, in that during NREM/Delta sleep there is precious little "metaphoric data," or seemingly physical evidence (like clocks or even palms through which to pass your own finger -- which also isn't there), so RC's as a tool for confirming your state is probably a non-starter. That doesn't mean, however, that you cannot know you are in NREM, just as you can know you are in REM without doing a RC.

About the only confirmation I can imagine for being in Delta is acknowledgement of absence. If you are an experienced LD'er, you will have a sense of what is supposed to be present in your dreams, from a perceptual stimulation standpoint as well as from a control standpoint. If you notice that everything is just gone, including not just schematic imagery, but control, stable input, and even your DC dream-body. That absence, that void, coupled with the literally ubiquitous presence of your self-awareness, ought to be enough to confirm that you are in Delta. But that's Delta, the very early periods of the sleep cycle represented by extremely slow, long brain waves.

Because NREM also occurs at times Delta does not, and your brain activity is more consciousness-friendly at those times, you can find yourself in it fairly easily. Anyone regularly attempting WILDs have probably found themselves in NREM quite often, though they probably saw it more as a barrier, a void, or just as a blip of blankness in the the dream-presentation program. Also, if you are able to stay lucid and asleep straight through a REM period, you will find yourself in a gray, post-REM place where everything seems to be gone (except, for me at least, a gray mist or blackness subtly offset by gentler shadows). So: NREM is probably a bit easier to experience than you might think, since we all might be there more often than we think, but Delta -- especially the longer periods of very deep sleep early in the cycle -- is much more difficult to experience, simply because it doesn't fall into the regular lucidity program, and we are hard-wired to ignore Delta on every level, including NLD's.

I would say then that the method for exploring NREM is probably right there for experienced WILDer's: do your WILD dive after a shorter WBTB period, and learn to hold your awareness steady through the noise, and then recognize that brief period of emptiness preceding the dream as something worth exploring, rather than just an annoying void. For DILDer's, and everyone else, the process is there as well: simply continue paying attention to your environment after the dream fades, and your current REM cycle ends, and do so (here's the tricky part) without following your body's normal path to awakening. And, of course, in either case your self-awareness will have to be fairly strong, because all you have to confirm your state is You.

I think that, once you become accustomed to navigating NREM before and after REM LD's, it becomes a little easier, or at least more possible, to try visiting Delta right after you fall asleep at night (aka, sleep yoga). If you're anything like me, you'll find it is worth the effort!

tl;dr: RC's as we understand them effectively can't work in NREM, for lack of reference points, but it is still possible to confirm you are still dreaming when in NREM. Also, though Delta sleep, that period of slow-wave brain activity early in the sleep cycle, might be difficult to consciously access, NREM happens all through the night, and is probably already being regularly visited by LD'ers (especially WILDers).

Interesting thread, 3Cat; I hope it gets some attention!

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Originally Posted by ThreeCat

Hey guys, this is a bit of a thought challenge I have for you guys.

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The day before yesterday I was very motivated and determined to reach this. My committed action led to 4 hours of trying on the beginning of the night, followed by insomnia and next day depression. Total sleep 1,5 hrs. Sageous is right: Don't try this on the beginning of sleep so far. Try it after 4,5 hrs WBTB full of priceless deep sleep stages prior.

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Originally Posted by Sageous

If you notice that everything is just gone, including not just schematic imagery, but control, stable input, and even your DC dream-body. That absence, that void, coupled with the literally ubiquitous presence of your self-awareness, ought to be enough to confirm that you are in Delta.

Because NREM also blankness in the the dream-presentation program. Also, if you are able to stay lucid and asleep straight through a REM period, you will find yourself in a gray, post-REM place where everything seems to be gone (except, for me at least, a gray mist or blackness subtly offset by gentler shadows). So: NREM is probably a bit easier to experience than you might think, since we all might be there more often than we think, but Delta -- especially the longer periods of very deep sleep early in the cycle -- is much more difficult to experience, simply because it doesn't fall into the regular lucidity program, and we are hard-wired to ignore Delta on every level, including NLD's.

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Very well described!

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Originally Posted by Sageous

I would say then that the method for exploring NREM is probably right there for experienced WILDer's: do your WILD dive after a shorter WBTB period, and learn to hold your awareness steady through the noise, and then recognize that brief period of emptiness preceding the dream as something worth exploring, rather than just an annoying void. For DILDer's, and everyone else, the process is there as well: simply continue paying attention to your environment after the dream fades, and your current REM cycle ends, and do so (here's the tricky part) without following your body's normal path to awakening. And, of course, in either case your self-awareness will have to be fairly strong, because all you have to confirm your state is You.

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Absolutly agree, this is the way for exploring light sleep nrem phases.

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I think that, once you become accustomed to navigating NREM before and after REM LD's, it becomes a little easier, or at least more possible, to try visiting Delta right after you fall asleep at night (aka, sleep yoga). If you're anything like me, you'll find it is worth the effort!

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Your post is like my thoughts elegantly written in comprehensible English. You're on fire Sageous! :evil:

Guys, thank you all for the responses. I think the concept is on people's minds. I have both an experience and an idea. The experience is my own, and can be found here: http://www.dreamviews.com/general-lu...rem-sleep.html (It's short :) )

This happened after I had a fairly difficult time falling asleep. I finally forced myself asleep with a double dose of melatonin, but the result was that I actually DILDed (or maybe WILDed) at bed time--except that this occurred about 5-10 minutes after falling asleep (if I remember correctly. It's been a bit).

The idea came to me while thinking about Buddhist induction techniques (the monks rolling up a piece of paper, putting it near a sleeper's ear, and whispering: "You're dreaming! Recognize the dream state!" This sort of connected in my mind with the practice of yoga nidra, that is, sleep yoga. The book I have on kriya yoga is called "A Systematic Course in the Ancient Tantric Techniques of Yoga and Kriya." It's a hefty volume, and only parts of it are on yoga nidra. However, the author makes it clear that yoga nidra is the practice of sleeping consciously, and not what most yoga instructors today will tell you: that is, that it is entirely about relaxing the body.

What most interested me was the author's insistence on practicing with a partner or teacher, and having them recite the instructions on what body part to place awareness on, and what image to visualize ("bodhi tree. Bodhi tree. Smiling Buddha. Smiling Buddha." and so on). The author insisted that it is very difficult to both concentrate on the practice AND remember the steps while practicing (though he did allow that advanced practitioners can do this).

So I am thinking that yoga nidra might be the way to go, but especially due to the auditory component. I am thinking it might provide just enough of an anchor to allow one to enter NREM lucidly.

Also, I happened upon a site discussing yoga nidra a while back (I can PM the link if anyone wants it). Yogis seem to maintain (and LaBerge refers to this in his video) that yoga nidra involves going PAST dreaming, and then entering NREM and then delta. I was wondering if you could speak this Sageous, as it seems to contradict what we've been taught about sleep cycles. Also, is it possible to continue onward after a dream has ended, without waking up and without losing consciousness? If so, a lucid dream could be a possible platform from which to enter NREM and delta (especially if it's one of the first LDs of the night). I myself have entered REM and had a lucid dream within the first 20 minutes of the night, which leads me to believe there is something in all this "go past dreaming to enter delta" talk.

The author (Swami Satyananda Saraswati), by the way, has a book solely on yoga nidra. I plan to get that soon :)

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Originally Posted by ThreeCat

Also, I happened upon a site discussing yoga nidra a while back (I can PM the link if anyone wants it). Yogis seem to maintain ... that yoga nidra involves going PAST dreaming, and then entering NREM and then delta. I was wondering if you could speak this Sageous, as it seems to contradict what we've been taught about sleep cycles. Also, is it possible to continue onward after a dream has ended, without waking up and without losing consciousness? If so, a lucid dream could be a possible platform from which to enter NREM and delta (especially if it's one of the first LDs of the night). I myself have entered REM and had a lucid dream within the first 20 minutes of the night, which leads me to believe there is something in all this "go past dreaming to enter delta" talk.

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I've found over the years that many aspects or potentials of Dream Yoga and Sleep Yoga seem to contradict what we know about the sleep cycle. I have a feeling that, when we add waking-life self-awareness to a good night's sleep, "regular," predictable REM and NREM periods often get tossed out the window (mostly because they simply no longer matter?). There are some things we can do nothing about, it seems (i.e., I've never managed to get a REM period to last more than 2 hours without waking up), but there are others -- like experiencing dreams immediately upon falling asleep -- that confound or perhaps rewrite the dreaming rulebook. It could be that, with a little conscious effort, REM can be conjured upon request.

So yes, as I mentioned above, it is certainly "...possible to continue onward after a dream has ended, without waking up and without losing consciousness." It takes a little effort, especially very late in the sleep cycle, when you are, yes, at the sweet spot for LD'ing, but also at a stage where your body is very interested in waking up. But I recommend making the effort; some of my most exciting and creative moments came in these moments of "extension," whether that extension happened with REM or NREM... I'm not sure whether it was because of the necessary upgrade of my focus and imaginative input just to maintain the moment, or if it was my unconscious offering up tings I never would have encountered during normal sleep (especially in NREM stretches). Also, as you've probably figured by now, I recommend exploring Delta when you can; and yes, if you manage a proper LD right at bedtime, you ought to be able to hold onto your self-awareness as you move (quickly) from that moment of serendipitous REM to naturally-scheduled Delta. Once you are lucid, you are no longer "going past," or rather subject to, the various periods of REM, NREM, and Delta, but are simply a witness to the changes of a night's sleep as they pass by your stable consciousness.

Hi all. I see Sageous has already made all sorts of good points, so I will not take the time restating anything he has said. I agree with him in general on the topic.

I will add my 2 cents, as I think I have a thought or two worth stating.

How to RC in nREM (a joke, but also dead serious)

RC: Look at my hands.
Results: Where the hell are my hands?

RC: Where was I a minute ago?
Results: Ummm, perhaps if I could remember who I am?

RC: Look at your surroundings.
Result everything is dark or see through or glittering.

Basically RC in nREM is very easy, as it is so different from waking life.


How to get there? Do a WILD in which you refuse to loose consciousness. I am talking about refusing to drop your anchor regardless of it taking 30 or more minutes. Enter a state where you have virtually no awareness of yyour body, but a true dream has not formed. You are there! Observe and do not focus on your body. The longer you stay in that state the more types and phases of nREM you will see.
Also, try a serious WILD at bedtime. If you do, then you will likely not reach REM. We all know that, right? What will you reach if you stay aware into sleep. AH! You are there again.
Plus, the easiest way is what Sageous recommends. Stay aware and do not wake up after a lucid dream collapses. You will enter a new weird phase that is unlike normal dreaming.

I would like to clarify one point:
nREM does not have to be free of visuals or context.
As Sageous points out Delta sleep is only one example of nREM. The types are probably fairly unstudied. Remember all sleep that is not REM is some form of nREM. In many of them you honestly dream. You just dream different. I will link to a few of my journal entries showing what I mean. I am just grabbing 3 at random.

This one is a great example of one that has context, but no plot and some almost normal visual elements, 02/29/12 I Must be a Shadow WILD - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views


Here is one in some very weird nREM phase, 03/15/12 Abstract WBTB - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views


Finally here is one that starts nREM and transitions into REM. I put the nREM stuff in bold. You should be able to see clear differences between the two phases. 03/08/12 Atomic Task Completed WILD - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

I'm not surprised that lucid NREM may lead to wrong conslusion that laberge says: There could be something ''not harware or software related"... cough ''soul''... I regard about this little differently: There is part of brain, or certain '' wiring'' which is responsible for this conscious state or lucidity. Lucid NREM is solely experiencing consciousness without any sensory disturbance. We can indetify this pure consciousness an hopefuly transfer this brain wiring in our waking lifes. I guess this nrem lucid training and transfering would leads to extension of awareness in every states resulting in more lucid dreams as well.

I accidentaly become NREM lucid by practicing focus on FA's at the end of lucid dreams. I told myself I'm aware and will be aware after end of this lucid dreaming and recognize immediately false awakening. Instead FA, I found myself in pure conscious blackness. I told to my self, holy crap, what is this?! I don't feel my body and there's no dream or any sensation left. Just pure ME. It last for about 5 minutes and then another dream start to form out of blackness. It was eyes opening experience. :) I think this was light sleep gap between lucid dreams, but I didn't measure it.

Awesome discussion! I think Sageous and Sivason got most of the ground covered, but I want to add a few thoughts on bed time wilding as well.

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Yogis seem to maintain (and LaBerge refers to this in his video) that yoga nidra involves going PAST dreaming, and then entering NREM and then delta. I was wondering if you could speak this Sageous, as it seems to contradict what we've been taught about sleep cycles.

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If I had understood this correctly you are wondering if it is possible to have a visual, possibly REM-like dream immediately after falling asleep? Surely, this has happened to a number of members here, both experienced or unexperienced. It also accidentally happened couple of days ago to me as I was simply doing a bit of relaxation plus awareness (the perfect combination) with the pure goal of helping me fall alseep. I had a short wild where I ended up in the other room, but alas couldn't make this experience last too long as I was feeling too warm in bed. It may also be worth mentioning that doing the relaxation/awareness practices in suspine position always helps me focus better at bed time.

Anyways, up to the point, why directly into a dream? You may have seen the sleep cycle chart and the first 5-10 mins is a stage of light sleep. This stage may be of varying length for different people or even during different nights for the same person, depending on lots of factors (foods, tiredness levels, etc.). Usually, the more tired a person is, the more their brains would produce delta waves, which would make it harder to be aware during the initial stages (remember that for lucidity we need some fast awareness waves to be running at the background of the other waves). But if one is more awake, maybe with multivitamins or after awareness practices before bed time or even during the day, then they will have both the opportunity and the ability to catch the early transition and in rare cases proceed even further aware in the deeper stages of sleep.

Now, buddhist monks or meditation practitioners can be taking an advatage of slightly altered sleep cycles, in which their deep sleep stage is less deeper, because they have been spending hours of aware sleep, i.e. meditation during the day. Therefore, the less sleep hormones (like adenosine) have been building up during the day, and combine this with their superior focus, making it easier overall to enter the early stages aware.

Finally, let me go back to the a certain property of the early sleep stage, the very first one before all the deep sleep. Again, the first stage is a very light stage that lasts a few minutes. What is especially interesting about this stage is the similarity in terms of brainwaves mix that it bears to REM sleep. They are indeed the closest two stages (see graph). So, even with less skilled practitioners, it is possible to first go into a REM like lucid dream before all the NREM void, and deep sleep stages have passed.

http://www.catalystathletics.com/art...ooperSleep.jpg

http://www.sleepdex.org/images/brainwave.jpg

^^So true! What a great discussion! This truly makes me excited about expanding my practice and also gives me more desire to avoid "following your body's normal path to awakening" as Sageous put it. I have had some assumed NREM lucids, but I don't think I have had the delta variety. In this example, if I ever got to delta it obviously came with a loss of lucidity after the TOTM attempt:

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Back to bed SSILD And I think I WILD here as it seems like I keep consciousness all the way through. It feels like I am not going to sleep but I start getting different HH's including a finger running down my arm and do my best to ignore the HH's. I start to feel different and decide that I might already be dreaming and should try floating. At first it seems like nothing is happening and then I start floating, first I see a beautiful tree with purple leaves and green leaves, it is so beautiful! I continue floating upward on my back facing up and see a pink blossoming tree maybe cherry blossoms and still other trees of many varieties (one tree at a time and absolutely nothing else around and no real sense of a dream body). I then seem to be in a void and think about a TOTM...

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Full DJ: Casino Girl Flying Sex, Floating in Arboretum - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

From Sageous' description, at least some trips to "the void" can be NREM and if we aren't in delta we may get some different visuals. One that I have had more than a few times is grid patterns especially at the end of REM...I don't know why.

It sounds like the OP has already been answered but in my examples the experience is confirming that I am dreaming or is the RC...but that is just for non-delta nrem since I have no delta experience...yet!

Its funny that you came up with this video. I just recently posted thread about consciouss sleep. I got to state of nothingness many times where i formed a dream.
It started when i felt my body dissapear,then hearring, and i was in complete darkness. Then i just imagine myself in my room and opened my eyes and i was lucid dreaming. I had also obe where i saw my physical body.
I theorized that its that i am not my mind or body that there is the main being of us. I was month ago meditating and i seperated from my mind and body as parts not as me it was very weird but after that experience it felt like i located my core being but it could be mind playing tricks. That relazation lasted about 2 hours until felt like the regular old me.
After that experience for some reason i gained this huge attention span and i started trying conscious sleep. I could lay hours in bed without being bored just focused on observing sleep.
Once i entered to nothingness state it was really hard to realize it. Even though i were fully awake minute ago and aware me losing my senses still suddenly i felt like i had layed there hours. Thats when i knew i was no longer awake but also not dreaming. I thought of being in my room and suddenly i felt really awake and i opened my eyes and i was lucid dreaming. It was really vivid and felt almost real. Also i did one of the coolest things. I looked thourgh mirror and tried to see beyond my skin. I saw all my bones and organs. Weird part that they really matched with human anathomy. Its crazy how many memories our memory holds.

I start this by just laying there. Then i build deattachmend of my senses. I say to myself that im just going to lay here until i fall asleep. No matter what i see, feel or i hear i dont care.
When i did it even if i got the most annoying itch it didnt bother me since i was kind of deattached of my body sensations i only cared about falling asleep. Everything was just neutral to me. From where i closed my eyes and woke up from lucid dream 2 hours had passed. Falling to the nothingness state felt like 1h and being in that state felt like 2 hours and the dream felt like 10min. But only 2 hours had passed when i opened my eyes next time. Thats why im taking a break trying it since it just excausting mentally since it feel so long to in that state.

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So yes, as I mentioned above, it is certainly "...possible to continue onward after a dream has ended, without waking up and without losing consciousness." It takes a little effort, especially very late in the sleep cycle, when you are, yes, at the sweet spot for LD'ing, but also at a stage where your body is very interested in waking up. But I recommend making the effort; some of my most exciting and creative moments came in these moments of "extension,"

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And by extension, it should be possible to remain lucid the entire night . . . is that right? Something that occurs to me, because I am not necessarily wanting to make this an issue of stabilizing, but often when a lucid dream has ended for me, it is often preceded by what I describe of as a failing of attention; all of a sudden I am thinking about something, as opposed to being focused, and the dream ends. Does remaining asleep (and lucid) become a matter of retaining focus, similar to meditating? Also, is it beneficial to shift from something like "awareness" that I think we experience during a normal lucid to more "concentration," or does hanging on actually cause on to wake up? Hopefully that makes sense. Also, concerning dismantling the current dream and reentering nREM: it has occurred to me to "cheat" and spin a new dream scene, but then just remain in the void. Would that take concentration to still thoughts in order to stop a dream scene from forming? And if it was done early in the night, would it be possible to reenter nREM and then move on to delta--in a sense, skipping the dream?

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Remember all sleep that is not REM is some form of nREM. In many of them you honestly dream. You just dream different. I will link to a few of my journal entries showing what I mean. I am just grabbing 3 at random.

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Thank you for posting these, sivason; it makes me think of the fact that while people who are blind dream, they do not (unless they have recently become blind) enter REM. Which makes it seem as though "REM" is merely denoted as such because most human beings interact with dream phenomenon visually, and that eye movement is not necessary for dreaming. I have sometimes awoken from a dream that seemed so abstract as to be almost unmemorable (odd conceits such as being a flower--sort of--but no real way to visualize or hang onto the dream once awake), and I wonder if this could somewhat explain it. These dreams are usually the first ones of the night.

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I accidentaly become NREM lucid by practicing focus on FA's at the end of lucid dreams. I told myself I'm aware and will be aware after end of this lucid dreaming and recognize immediately false awakening. Instead FA, I found myself in pure conscious blackness. I told to my self, holy crap, what is this?! I don't feel my body and there's no dream or any sensation left. Just pure ME. It last for about 5 minutes and then another dream start to form out of blackness. It was eyes opening experience. I think this was light sleep gap between lucid dreams, but I didn't measure it.

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Nfri, did this happen today/last night? Either way, sounds like an amazing experience. If so, kind of fortuitous that is occurred right after our discussion on nREM!

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It also accidentally happened couple of days ago to me as I was simply doing a bit of relaxation plus awareness (the perfect combination) with the pure goal of helping me fall alseep. I had a short wild where I ended up in the other room, but alas couldn't make this experience last too long as I was feeling too warm in bed. It may also be worth mentioning that doing the relaxation/awareness practices in suspine position always helps me focus better at bed time.

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Very cool Nyx! I gave this a shot today during my nap. I prayed three times to realize I was awake during nREM or REM, whichever occurred. I also relaxed my body with some stretching. What did happen (and what usually doesn't) is that I had a fade-out: I fell asleep briefly and then woke up feeling deeply relaxed, but cognizant that only a few moments had passed. I am taking this as a good sign. I also remembered a full dream from a nap, which historically has been unlike me. I am also going to steal that graph, if you don't mind.

@fogelbise: that sounds like an amazing beginning to a dream! Still blown away by what the mind conjures from the void. I also have felt the tactile sensations before WILD (feel like someone is trying to tickle me or whisper in my ear--weird!).

Very cool . . . it was really neat seeing all of these responses at work today. Truly a blessing to have this site available where we can all learn from and build on each other's experiences. Thank you so much, everyone.

Some of you seem to have experience with different types of NREM sleep so I would like to pose a question. Several times I have experienced a kind of stream of consciousness during sleep. This always happens when I'm having a hard time sleeping and I'm experiencing "restless" sleep where I keep waking up periodically. There will be complete blackness and I have no body. I just have a never-ending stream of thoughts and usually I see the words I'm thinking as if they are scrolling in front of my eyes. Is this like anything you've ever experienced? Were you lucid? I was not.

I've never experienced that, EamonWill, but that sounds like nREM to me.

I've experienced a similar sleep state early in the night when I drowse off in a situation where I can preserve my awareness. I wouldn't say that I "see" the words, I just think them, but it is definitely a sleep state that is more focused on words than images.

Had a moment last night; I'm quoting from my DJ:

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I fall asleep with the aid of melatonin (due to being "tired" but not falling under as quickly as I would like). I am in darkness, though I am not lucidly aware of being asleep. I have no body, but I am aware of myself--or aware of whatever is there. I am struck by the sudden realization that I will die--or rather, that this awareness will end-- (though this is not doing the realization credit). I attempt to verbalize this realization several times in thought: I am going to die. Not satisfying. I am dying. That is also not "it." I am already dead. Closer, but still not it. My words are unable to grasp the fundamental reality of the matter. I wake up a few moments later; I have been asleep for approximately five or ten minutes.

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^^ So next time this happens -- and it will -- you might try remembering that you are not dead, and asking, then, why you feel that you are. Lucidity would build quickly from that thought, I think. You will, of course, still have no dream body and be existing in nothing (which is pretty cool in itself), but you'll be self-aware, past the death reflex, and on your way to exploring delta. Sort of a delta dreamsign, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ So next time this happens -- and it will -- you might try remembering that you are not dead, and asking, then, why you feel that you are. Lucidity would build quickly from that thought, I think. You will, of course, still have no dream body and be existing in nothing (which is pretty cool in itself), but you'll be self-aware, past the death reflex, and on your way to exploring delta. Sort of a delta dreamsign, I guess.

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Nice, Sageous. I really didn't capture the feeling, unfortunately--I knew I wasn't dead, but there was also the sense that the time from here to then would be so short as to be negligible, or even non-existent. But I'm glad that you mentioned this--I think I would have responded differently if I had been lucid, and especially if I had been able to remember my intention to move into delta. I appreciate the comment.

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Originally Posted by Verre

I've experienced a similar sleep state early in the night when I drowse off in a situation where I can preserve my awareness. I wouldn't say that I "see" the words, I just think them, but it is definitely a sleep state that is more focused on words than images.

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That's interesting. Usually when I "catch" myself drifting (and unfortunately wake myself from the realization) I am always thinking in images much like REM or day dreaming.

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Originally Posted by ThreeCat

Had a moment last night; I'm quoting from my DJ

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That sounds scary! Was it? Were you thinking that your current sleep/dream consciousness was about to end and "die" or that you as a person were going to die?

@EamonWill: it was definitely me as a person.

I had two LD this morning that occurred in an unusual way. I actually became lucid in nREM during a dream transition!!! It feels like what I imagine WILD feels like, and I've been doing this ever since I tried SSILD, but it's not either. I will be dreaming, non-lucid, and then the dream will end and as it ends I will go through hynogogic like sensations. I will feel my body vibrate and see flashing lights. I don't realize I was just dreaming, but I do immediately gain lucidity and I believe that I'm falling asleep and entering a dream. The first time I woke up, but this morning I actually did transition into a "lucid FA." Basically, I entered a new dream where I felt myself in bed. I knew it was probably a FA so I waited for the dream to stabilize. I felt confident when I felt myself drift out of bed and float down to hover just over the floor, lol. I did a RC and confirmed it. I went about my LD. Then as this LD ended I felt the same vibrations and saw the same lights so I held lucidity again and went into another lucid FA and had another LD. This is really cool because it's a great way to learn how to WILD/SSILD (if you are like me and have never been successful), it's a great way to enjoy lucid nREM, and it's a great way to chain LD. Don't know if anyone has done this before but I would call it "Dream Transition Induced Lucid Dreaming" or DTILD. After a quick internet search revealed nothing, and I'm pretty confident I know all the most popular techniques, I don't think anyone is talking about this yet! They should, it's awesome!

Cool experience, EamonWill. Thanks for sharing. :) Do you feel that your experience is very different from a DEILD in general. Sounds like a lot of fun, though.

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Originally Posted by ThreeCat

Do you feel that your experience is very different from a DEILD in general. Sounds like a lot of fun, though.

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I always thought that a DEILD was where you actually woke up and then fell back to sleep with intent to re-enter the same dream... am I wrong? Must do more research! lol

EDIT:
OK, so I re-read a DEILD guide online just to make sure and it definitely requires waking up, not moving, remembering your last dream, and incubating it so that you slip back into the same dream. I suppose it's similar. I was probably getting close to waking up which is why my dream slipped away. However, I was not awake enough to realize the last place I'd been was a dream and I didn't do any kind of dream incubation. I just allowed my mind to drift naturally into another dream. I can't incubate dreams worth crap. I think if I'd tried I would have woken myself up from the effort. So it's like a simplified version of DEILD, lol. Thanks for pointing that out! Also, the writer mentioned that instead of using alarms she takes advantage of her dog waking her up in the night. This gives me reason not to be mad at my cat when he does the same! Bouton is just helping me with lucid dreams! :gab:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EamonWill

I always thought that a DEILD was where you actually woke up and then fell back to sleep with intent to re-enter the same dream... am I wrong? Must do more research! lol

EDIT:
OK, so I re-read a DEILD guide online just to make sure and it definitely requires waking up, not moving, remembering your last dream, and incubating it so that you slip back into the same dream. I suppose it's similar. I was probably getting close to waking up which is why my dream slipped away. However, I was not awake enough to realize the last place I'd been was a dream and I didn't do any kind of dream incubation. I just allowed my mind to drift naturally into another dream. I can't incubate dreams worth crap. I think if I'd tried I would have woken myself up from the effort. So it's like a simplified version of DEILD, lol. Thanks for pointing that out! Also, the writer mentioned that instead of using alarms she takes advantage of her dog waking her up in the night. This gives me reason not to be mad at my cat when he does the same! Bouton is just helping me with lucid dreams! :gab:

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Roughly. Doesn't really need to be the same dream, but to keep that awareness. That's what I get from the fundamentals of DEILD.

Hey guys, have an update on my progress:

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Lie back on back, just try to fall asleep. Falling sensation,vivid HI (can't remember it now, but I recognized it when I saw it), and then falling completely backward. "Land" in body. Warmth spreads over body. Body begins breathing rhythmically--fell asleep with hands on stomach, difficult to get deep breaths. I just let body do what it wants. Goes on for some time (30 minutes?). Undercurrent of thoughts, but I am able to easily observe them without actively participating. Just observe thoughts while lying, and use breath as anchor.

Breathing begins to slow down. Continues to slow, warmth continues to spread through body until it is difficult to feel body. Can barely feel body now or hear breathing. I am just aware of my heart beat and some undercurrent thoughts.

Vision begins to brighten and expand, and outer awareness that is left very quickly dimming. I feel this is the approach of delta sleep. Heart rate increases until vision returns to black. I can hear my breathing again.

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Rest of DJ here:

http://www.dreamviews.com/blogs/thre...on-nrem-63229/

I think that we can not speak about n-REM and REM sleep without taking in account that there are two different REM sleep : Tonic REM and Phasic REM.
a single REM stage seams to contain several Phasic REM and tonic REM periods.
Phasic REM : vivid dream, Rapid Eye Movements, hard to wake up, stimulus from outside barely across the dream shield
Tonic REM: not as vivid, no Rapid Eye Movements, easy to wake up, stimulus from outside easily across the dream shield

knowing this, we can imagine that a tonic REM phase can be mistaken for a n-rem stage.
I also think that tonic and phasic REM has to be taken in account when we speak about WILD and DEILD, since it can be a key.

Give some examples of n-REM dreams, I only ever recall two dreams that I thought might be n-REM

they had a fast flowing nature to them,

In one I was like at a canal or river and images of things were flowing along it but as the dream went along they changed boats, ships, fish, people, the whole thing constantly seemed to flow from one idea set of things into another with great speed and fluidity, nothing had the right sense of speed or scale, all too small or too big and moving changing much to fast

The other one I was in a rail yard there seemed at first just to be a few tracks, but more and more trains were coming in both directions and new tracks would appear, I would be jumping out of the way only to find another train incoming, sometimes having to jump through open sections of train (like flat beds or whatever) only to find myself in the path of another incoming train. If was fast and frantic like a bizarre game of 3D frogger

What have you experienced that you think were n-REM?

You said, "Heart rate increases until vision returns to black."

Have you had this problem before? I can't WILD bc my heart starts racing and then my breathing becomes sporadic and it wakes me up! I've been very close before, like you I couldn't hear or feel anything, but I noticed my heart beating and the rate skyrocketed! I'm guessing meditation would help. But how do I address this problem specifically?

Hi, I spend lots of time in NRem consciously awake, with my body asleep for hours at a time. I do WBTB at least three times a week. I wake up naturally after 5.5 to 6 hrs sleep after having a regular dream. I get up for a 20 minutes and read about LD or OBE. Then I view pictures for on my digital picture frame for 10 mins. These pictures are related to what I want to dream about. Then I lay perfectly still. After about 10 minutes my hands and feet are tingling, and I can't feel them (if that makes sense). Then at about 20 minutes my arms and legs are tingling and they feel like they're not there. After about 1/2 hour my hearing stops and I can't feel, or see anything. When my hearing stops, I know I'm in the void or Nrem. My vision is kind of a light grayish green. Nothing is there. It's very boring and I find myself thinking about various things to help pass the time. Images appear occasionally and they're related to what I'm thinking about. I even hear sounds intermittently. This is when I can relax further into the twilight zone and go into an LD. I find it very difficult not to go unconscious at those seconds just before the dream starts. If I can maintain my consciousness then I enter the dream lucid. When the LD ends, then I remain perfectly still and I remain in the void waiting for the next LD to start. I've had nights where I've had 6 consecutive LD's over 3 hours and kept consciously aware the entire time until my alarm goes off. This only works for me from WBTB at 6 hrs to about 9 hours. After that, I can't maintain Nrem state, and my LD's are usually DILDS. It's hit and miss. Earlier this week I entered NRem and stayed there from 4Pm to 6:30 Am with no dreams because I couldn't drop into the twilight zone (now that was beyond boring). I learnt how to be conscious in NRem by practicing meditation. I meditate once in the morning for 10 minutes, lunch for 45 minutes, then again in the evening for 10 minutes. Practicing meditation helps you enter the twilight zone without falling asleep. There's all types of cool experiences you can have while meditating which can be every bit as exciting as an LD (if not the same thing). I've recently discovered you can interact with dream figures by speaking and touch while in NRem (without any vision), and this happens in the twilight zone, but before the dream starts. You can stay there for a long time interacting. It seems to be a good place where you can interact with your dream figure in peace and quiet (there's no nasty dream figures there). This dream figure interaction during NRem has only happened a few times, but I think it can be mastered with practice. I feel this was made possible for me through practicing meditation (lots of it). Oh yes, if I start to go unconscious while in NRem, an imaginary bell goes off (ring, ring, ring) quite frequently which I'm short on words to explain, but it certainly helps to keep you consciously aware. So bring along your imaginary bell while in NRem.

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Originally Posted by Tihiti

Hi, I spend lots of time in NRem consciously awake, with my body asleep for hours at a time. I do WBTB at least three times a week. I wake up naturally after 5.5 to 6 hrs sleep after having a regular dream. I get up for a 20 minutes and read about LD or OBE. Then I view pictures for on my digital picture frame for 10 mins. These pictures are related to what I want to dream about. Then I lay perfectly still. After about 10 minutes my hands and feet are tingling, and I can't feel them (if that makes sense). Then at about 20 minutes my arms and legs are tingling and they feel like they're not there. After about 1/2 hour my hearing stops and I can't feel, or see anything. When my hearing stops, I know I'm in the void or Nrem. My vision is kind of a light grayish green. Nothing is there. It's very boring and I find myself thinking about various things to help pass the time. Images appear occasionally and they're related to what I'm thinking about. I even hear sounds intermittently. This is when I can relax further into the twilight zone and go into an LD. I find it very difficult not to go unconscious at those seconds just before the dream starts. If I can maintain my consciousness then I enter the dream lucid. When the LD ends, then I remain perfectly still and I remain in the void waiting for the next LD to start. I've had nights where I've had 6 consecutive LD's over 3 hours and kept consciously aware the entire time until my alarm goes off. This only works for me from WBTB at 6 hrs to about 9 hours. After that, I can't maintain Nrem state, and my LD's are usually DILDS. It's hit and miss. Earlier this week I entered NRem and stayed there from 4Pm to 6:30 Am with no dreams because I couldn't drop into the twilight zone (now that was beyond boring). I learnt how to be conscious in NRem by practicing meditation. I meditate once in the morning for 10 minutes, lunch for 45 minutes, then again in the evening for 10 minutes. Practicing meditation helps you enter the twilight zone without falling asleep. There's all types of cool experiences you can have while meditating which can be every bit as exciting as an LD (if not the same thing). I've recently discovered you can interact with dream figures by speaking and touch while in NRem (without any vision), and this happens in the twilight zone, but before the dream starts. You can stay there for a long time interacting. It seems to be a good place where you can interact with your dream figure in peace and quiet (there's no nasty dream figures there). This dream figure interaction during NRem has only happened a few times, but I think it can be mastered with practice. I feel this was made possible for me through practicing meditation (lots of it). Oh yes, if I start to go unconscious while in NRem, an imaginary bell goes off (ring, ring, ring) quite frequently which I'm short on words to explain, but it certainly helps to keep you consciously aware. So bring along your imaginary bell while in NRem.

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That is great. Meditation is very helpful here as you say. I would say that what you describe is very classic nREM (one manifestation, there are many). This is very similar to what I experience, but I have learned to have some very cool interactive dreams in this state. I will offer you a tip.With tactile (touch) visualization you can use this phase to practice all sorts of things. You can spend tons of time changing your dream body into animals, then when in a normal LD you will be well practiced. You can also spend the time doing fun tactile things such as dancing or gymnastics.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tihiti

Hi, I spend lots of time in NRem consciously awake, with my body asleep for hours at a time. I do WBTB at least three times a week. I wake up naturally after 5.5 to 6 hrs sleep after having a regular dream. I get up for a 20 minutes and read about LD or OBE. Then I view pictures for on my digital picture frame for 10 mins. These pictures are related to what I want to dream about. Then I lay perfectly still. After about 10 minutes my hands and feet are tingling, and I can't feel them (if that makes sense). Then at about 20 minutes my arms and legs are tingling and they feel like they're not there. After about 1/2 hour my hearing stops and I can't feel, or see anything. When my hearing stops, I know I'm in the void or Nrem. My vision is kind of a light grayish green. Nothing is there. It's very boring and I find myself thinking about various things to help pass the time. Images appear occasionally and they're related to what I'm thinking about. I even hear sounds intermittently. This is when I can relax further into the twilight zone and go into an LD. I find it very difficult not to go unconscious at those seconds just before the dream starts. If I can maintain my consciousness then I enter the dream lucid. When the LD ends, then I remain perfectly still and I remain in the void waiting for the next LD to start. I've had nights where I've had 6 consecutive LD's over 3 hours and kept consciously aware the entire time until my alarm goes off. This only works for me from WBTB at 6 hrs to about 9 hours. After that, I can't maintain Nrem state, and my LD's are usually DILDS. It's hit and miss. Earlier this week I entered NRem and stayed there from 4Pm to 6:30 Am with no dreams because I couldn't drop into the twilight zone (now that was beyond boring). I learnt how to be conscious in NRem by practicing meditation. I meditate once in the morning for 10 minutes, lunch for 45 minutes, then again in the evening for 10 minutes. Practicing meditation helps you enter the twilight zone without falling asleep. There's all types of cool experiences you can have while meditating which can be every bit as exciting as an LD (if not the same thing). I've recently discovered you can interact with dream figures by speaking and touch while in NRem (without any vision), and this happens in the twilight zone, but before the dream starts. You can stay there for a long time interacting. It seems to be a good place where you can interact with your dream figure in peace and quiet (there's no nasty dream figures there). This dream figure interaction during NRem has only happened a few times, but I think it can be mastered with practice. I feel this was made possible for me through practicing meditation (lots of it). Oh yes, if I start to go unconscious while in NRem, an imaginary bell goes off (ring, ring, ring) quite frequently which I'm short on words to explain, but it certainly helps to keep you consciously aware. So bring along your imaginary bell while in NRem.

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This is amazing! It's funny that we harshly strive for it, and you are actually there and you found it boring :D

Tell me about your meditation experience and how do you meditate? It's very hard to get into meditational state in waking for me, almost impossible so I would appreciate every advice from anyone who do it effectively on regular basis.

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Originally Posted by sivason

I will offer you a tip. With tactile (touch) visualization you can use this phase to practice all sorts of things. You can spend tons of time changing your dream body into animals, then when in a normal LD you will be well practiced. You can also spend the time doing fun tactile things such as dancing or gymnastics.

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Tactile visualization sounds better than touch! I'll use that phrase instead. I'm going to experiment with your suggestions and see if I can start doing more while there!:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nfri

Tell me about your meditation experience and how do you meditate? It's very hard to get into meditational state in waking for me, almost impossible so I would appreciate every advice from anyone who do it effectively on regular basis.

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Hi Nfri, I've only been meditating for about a year and half. I was seeing a counsellor regarding my daughter's passing, and nothing seemed to be helping me to cope. He then said he's a Buddhist. I found this odd because he's totally blonde and blue eyed, but he recommended I start meditating. He said he took up meditating after his mom passed and it helped immensely. He wouldn't give me any details on how it helped, but he simply recommended I give it a try. He said he's not allowed to discuss spirituality as a counsellor due to ethics. So, being at my wits end, I decided to start meditating (last resort, lol). I simply pray to God (I'm Christian), angels and heavenly spirits before I start, to ask for connection with my daughter. Then I lie perfectly still in bed, with a pillow, on my back. It seems every itch possible happens as you're trying to relax, but you must not move. When I first started (1 1/2 yrs ago) I would just see flashes of blue and purple lights occasionally, and if I was lucky I would see some images. The trick is to let your body fall asleep, but keep your mind conscious. If I try this in the evening I often fall asleep, so the best time is at lunch, or after 5 or 6 hours of deep sleep. You need to be rested so to avoid falling asleep consciously. I focus the energy in my brain from the sides to the upper frontal lobes. I can actually feel it move there. You can practice moving the energy back and forth (with eyes closed). When the energy is upper frontal lobes, then imagery is much clearer. My feet and hands lose feeling first, then my arms and legs. Then I can't feel my body. When the hearing stops, then I'm there, and things can get really interesting and 'waking life' like. Currently after a 1 1/2 years of meditating I can get decent imagery within 10 to 15 seconds of closing my eyes. After about 30 minutes I can get remote viewing with clarity similar to waking. If I go further and closer to the twilight zone, then I get sound and I can sometimes step into the imagery and have a lucid experience, but this is very rare for me. I usually get thrown out or get an electric zap when I enter the imagery. But when I do enter the lucid state, it's seems to be the same as a lucid dream. I'm now practicing to astral project during meditation, but I haven't been successful with that yet - there's lots of literature on how to do this. I can OBE exit during Nrem when I get 'the vibrations'. Anyway the experiences I've had during meditation have been nothing short of profound. Remote viewing during meditation is fun. It's possible to go to distant places, and through time, but I'm not at the steering wheel. I'm looking through somebody else's eyes. Imagine sitting on a large asteroid, of a planet's ring, in the shadow of the planet itself, as a star lights up the ring past the planet's shadow. All while being surrounded by the blackness of space and distant stars, and having clarity beyond what your physical eyes are capable of. Or watching Earth's continental shift from space over billions of years, in fast forward, over a couple of minutes. Or seeing a female angel solemnly kneeling on a stone floor with her eyes closed in such detail that I can see the individual strands making up each feather. Meditation offers some cool stuff well suited for lucid dreamers. I think this can be done in Nrem too, but it needs some work. The counsellor was right about Meditation helping me cope with my daughter's passing.

That is really cool, Tihiti. Thank you for sharing your experiences with us. When you say shifting energy from one part of the brain to the other, do you focus on a particular part of the brain with the intent for energy to accumulate there? Do you visualize the energy moving from one place to another? Just curious.

Your description of the body slowly falling asleep sounds exactly like what happened to me on my bedtime FAC attempt. I think I reached the loss of hearing (and my vision was kind of grayish) but I became too excited and lost it.

Your visions (the angel, for instance) also sound very similar to things experienced during deep episodes of yoga nidra. Interesting how your transition after 5-6 hours of sleep is nothing like what most people describe upon entering WILD, and much more like yoga nidra (withdrawal of senses/pratyahara). Very interesting! :)

Hi 3cat, yes, visualize energy moving from the lower sides of your brain, up thru the middle, then holding it there in the top front half of your brain. I know this sounds nutty, but it seems to work for me. Astral projection exercises involve moving energy around your body. For example visualize energy moving from your knee to your toes and back again. Repeat this over and over, and very quickly you will start to feel sensations that are hard to discribe. Everybody can do these exercises and feel it happening with little or no practice. Body awareness.