Change and Progress

[brufonite]

Now that humankid has achieved the skill of lucid dreaming, do we really improve ourselves by doing it? is it change or progress? if a cannibal starts to use a knife and fork, is it change or progress? just wanted to pick some other brains here...

[Jalexxi]

Here's what I think. Change is something doesn't open up any new options. Progress is something that allows more change or progress then before.

[fluid phil]

Thats an interesting question. For a start though we don't know recent all this is. There's claims made by buddhists that it a long part of their tradition. Maybe neanderthal man lucid dreamed. To my mind the jury is still very much out on objective proof that people are indeed 'conscious' and in lucid control in a dream as they claim (and as I have experienced). It raises the whole issue of what consciousness is and if we really have as much control of it as we like to think. I know people always quote La Berge or Hearne who supposedly have proven lucid dreaming but I still have doubts. What they proved was that during the rem cycle of sleep, when chemicals in the brain have muted the bodies movements, people gave definite signals like 6 eye movements to the left and right. This was a prearranged signal that the subject was meant to give when they were lucid dreaming. My issues with this is: a) What were the control parameters used in the studies. Hearne for example was a paranormal researcher and they are notourius for using poor control techniques and improper analysis of data to get the results they want (or even outright fraud) B) Were they only in a meditative-type state and not full asleep? c) Maybe mentioning this signalling movement to the subject (possibly many times) translated into unconsciously performing that action while they slept There is still so much too know about the mind, brain, consciousness, dreaming, perception of reality etc. that it helps to keep a open mind about what is happening during lucid dreaming. I am fascinated by lucid dreaming though. If nothing else it is a wild ride. We need to keep working on what is really happening during lucidity, what it is good for (and possibly bad for), how it relates to real life perceptions before we will know if it is change or progress for humanity or just some interesting quirk of the brain.

[brufonite]

Originally posted by Jalexxi Here's what I think. Change is something doesn't open up any new options. Progress is something that allows more change or progress then before. with no reference to my first analogy of the cannibal, consider this: lets start by saying there was only the choice of eating meat form a diner. then another place starts selling chicken. this can be seen as progress, if you change your mind on the subject, say chicken or beef, it opens up more possibilities (more doors) of where you want to eat. having a larger selection of products does not signal progress, but change in the selection. i guess my point is that change is not progressive, but progress signals change. a bird can fly, but a fly can't bird.

[DNK]

My understanding of progress links it with a sense of bettering the situation. This brings into question whether or not there even is "good" and "bad" at the most basic level of existence, and whether or not if there is if lucid dreaming is moving us towards the potential good. To play on the example: does it ultimately matter what you eat, or did we just artificially give selection a positive aspect? Just redefining the question, I guess... Could make for a really good debate.

[brufonite]

Thank you DNK for snapping to the point i wanted to make initially. they say that truth began with lies, meaning all used to be good and true until the first bad or untruth. as for the eating part, well if we didn't, we'd logically die, which is a bad thing (to us, but not bad for mother nature). so this changes the debate to what can be done to measure good, bad, and how it ultimately influences change and/or progress.

[Howie]

First off, we are far from the pioneers off lucid dreaming. There are cultures that have been using lucid draming to their benefit for centuries. You can take anything, if you have decision making to add to the mix with it. There will ultimately be moral decisions to be made. Do you use lucid dreaming to rape pillage & plunder? Do you use lucid dreaming to extract creativity, expand horizons and conquer fears?

[DNK]

Originally posted by brufonite Thank you DNK for snapping to the point i wanted to make initially. they say that truth began with lies, meaning all used to be good and true until the first bad or untruth. as for the eating part, well if we didn't, we'd logically die, which is a bad thing (to us, but not bad for mother nature). so this changes the debate to what can be done to measure good, bad, and how it ultimately influences change and/or progress. Is death a bad thing? Do we even understand it? If we all die eventually, no matter what, then can it truly be negative? As a necessary aspect of existence, maybe it's good. Maybe there simply is no good or bad at all, and the whole debate's in our heads... I hold no position on the original quesiton, as I simply don't know what good or bad is, and therefore can't make a claim as to whether or not it's progress, by my definition at least.

[brufonite]

On the topic of death: death is bad from a personal point of view, i mean no one likes losing a loved one, and why are the majority of the population scared of it? from an evolutionary point of view it is a very good thing, without death we'd never be here, and we'd be going nowhere. on the topic of change and progress, death can be seen to promote both. this needn't be explained.

[Howie]

Originally posted by DNK Is death a bad thing? Do we even understand it? If we all die eventually, no matter what, then can it truly be negative? As a necessary aspect of existence, maybe it's good. Maybe there simply is no good or bad at all, and the whole debate's in our heads... I hold no position on the original quesiton, as I simply don't know what good or bad is, and therefore can't make a claim as to whether or not it's progress, by my definition at least. I guess a lot of this would depend on if you are an individual who is religious or not. Religious people have a higher being for their answer to death. So they do not have to seek an answer. But death in general really is an anonomly that none of us have a true answer for. We can come to terms with it for ourselves and others.