Dreams without imagery - non-Rem dreams?

[Asclepius]

I have noticed that I have two types of dreams that do not involve any imagery. Sometimes I have dreams which just consist of conversations between 2 or 3 people. Upon waking it is very hard to remember much of the wording. (A recent dream had 2 people talking about elements of normal dreaming and lucid dreaming, and how the elements worked in each. For example gravity - awake this didn't really make sense as gravity fails for me in both NDs and LDs) In other dreams there is only one voice talking about something, like a dream lecture. With both these types of dreams, I'm never sure if I'm missing out on usefull information, or just gibberish. (one dream lecture had something about downstream loss of signal consciousness, leading to normal dreams rather than lucid dreams). Do you have dreams like this? Do you think they are non-REM dreams? In one dream conversation I became lucid. That stopped the conversation, and I was just in an empty space with no dream body or imagery. I tried to visualize and wait for images, but eventually I moved one finger and awoke.

[Tornado Joe]

Ok, Joe, quit hittin the crack pipe dude!!! LOL! just kiddin - had a few glasses of wine tonight and feelin a bit "cheery". Anway.... As for non-imagery dreams, you mean yiou hvae dreams that take place in total darkness>? because I had something like that happen a couple times -- sometimes in the process of WILDing. Not sure if it really means anything, perhaps just your analytical side of the brain firing ooff before your artistic or creative side. If that's the case.. I would think that the conversatino would have a greater concenterated amount of "deep knowledge" since it doeasn't have to spend resourc es creating imagery. However, Imagery can be very usefull in explaining things -- just like chartgs and graphs are used in corporate meetings and such every dday. But, maybe the content your mind is contemplating is too complex for your visual or imaginative side to reproduce? who knows. As far as your dream ending as soon as you had become lucid - that makes sense in some way. You had become "aware" and therefore switched over amlost entirely to your "wake" knowledge which couldn't access or understand what your "hidden" or subcounsious mind was discussing. Therefore, shutting it off (or up). Hmm.... a rather interesting concept -- is there a completely different "self" hidden within us that carries on conversations or problem solving without us having any knowledge of it in our waking state? Could this be the gateway to that sixth sense? Bwahahhaa!!

[Asclepius]

Originally posted by Tornado Joe+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tornado Joe)</div> Ok, Joe, quit hittin the crack pipe dude!!![/b] Crack is WACK - just say NO! Originally posted by Tornado Joe@ As for non-imagery dreams, you mean yiou hvae dreams that take place in total darkness>? Darkness implies seeing. Its like there is no visual input at all, only auditory. I also got into this state once when I was trying to WILD. <!--QuoteBegin-Tornado Joe As far as your dream ending as soon as you had become lucid - that makes sense in some way. You had become "aware" and therefore switched over amlost entirely to your "wake" knowledge which couldn't access or understand what your "hidden" or subcounsious mind was discussing. Therefore, shutting it off (or up). Hmm.... a rather interesting concept -- is there a completely different "self" hidden within us that carries on conversations or problem solving without us having any knowledge of it in our waking state? Could this be the gateway to that sixth sense? It would nice if it was some useful activity. A different metaphor I have is that going to sleep is like putting a computer into sleep mode. And one program in my brain is not shutting down properly, but since the other subsystems are not operative, then it just produces junk. I had another "dream conversation" last night where two voices were discussing levels of dream control, and different types of dream characters. The two DCs kind of blurred together. Then there was one image! - a chart to summarize the relationships The last part of the dream was one voice saying "Of course at one level, the DCs are dreaming us." (I'm not making this up.)

[elli]

Aha! Aha! So THATS what happens! A non-REM dream! I get those all the time! I always wondered what they were...its not like I'm in blackness and I'm wondering why I can't see anyway, it just IS. I dunno if that makes sense, but thats always how it feels when I have a dream like that.

[Tornado Joe]

Sounds like a non-REM dream is pretty much the same as meditation, maybe?

[wombing]

Originally posted by Tornado Joe Sounds like a non-REM dream is pretty much the same as meditation, maybe? some eastern mystics say that dreamless sleep is the most profound state of consciousness humans experience, as we are stripped of all waking conditioning. some even claim to be 'aware' 24 hours a day, even through all of the sleep cycles (which implies they can experience dreamless non-rem sleep without interupting it with thoughts). asclepius, perhaps the next time you become lucid while in this state devoid of visual sense, and the voices stop, try to meditate without striving to enter a lucid dream complete with visuals. it may prove to be interesting... The last part of the dream was one voice saying "Of course at one level, the DCs are dreaming us."[/b] hahah, craziness.

[Asclepius]

Originally posted by elli I get those all the time! I always wondered what they were...its not like I'm in blackness and I'm wondering why I can't see anyway, it just IS. I dunno if that makes sense, but thats always how it feels when I have a dream like that. Hey Elli, do you remember any of the contents of these dreams? I'm still curious if they represent thinking or gibberish. Hey Tornado Joe & Wombing - as far as meditation. I do think that when I was lucid it was similar to what used to be called "theta" state (previously consciousness researchers used to refer to Alpha, Beta, Theta, and Delta - but these seem to have been outdated by later sleep research). This state did not have the profound aspects of samadi or sunyatta. The next time I get in this state, I'm going to see if I can stop worrying about lucids and just patiently wait for what happens next. for the dream lectures & conversations, I'll try to improve my recall.

[xcrissxcrossx]

that reminds me of a dream i had when i was little. I was in a conversation with like 5 people then i felt like waking up so i closed my eyes and i felt as if i was awake with my eyes closed but i could still hear them talking. i opened my eyes and i was awake and i could har the people talking for a split second after i opened my eyes. almost every dream i had when i was little i was lucid because i could tell myself to wake up, but i never knew i could control the dream. EDIT: forgot to say that i HAVE had dreams where i could hear people but i felt i was in absolute nowhere.

[Asclepius]

Last night I had another dream conversation without imagery. I am talking with someone about dreams and dream characters. It is explained to me by a metaphor the consciousness of DCs is like cyclinders So when I woke up at 3:10 and wrote this down, I'm thinking this is great. But in full waking consciousness its like dream jokes that used to be hilarious, but now are wtf? One thought at night was that the metaphor was based on height. Taller DCs have more consciousness. Which mean that when I dream of 8 feet tall people they're the most conscious? The other connection is to some posts by pasQuale about her conversations with DCs, where some have told her they are hollow (like a cylinder?) The other part of the dream conversation was explaining that consciouness in dreaming is like multiple windows on your computer. As part of multi-threading on your computer system resources are divided among the windows. In dreams part of your consciouness is 'running' the scenery, part is performing the DCs, and part is yourself as a DC. To become lucid you need to unify consciousness. (I've added to the explanation which was more basic in the dream) This metaphor seems better. But consciously I don't believe you need to unify consciousness to become lucid. In my MILD DILDs, I just need to start questioning the experience (or I just need to open my questioning window ) So I was hoping for dream profundity, but seems more like sleep induced defective thinking so far....