dreaming and schizophrenia

[voidofform]

i hope i'm not offending anyone here, but i'm fascinated by schizophrenia and psychosis. (i'm pretty sure i'm not schizophrenic myself btw). in particular the relationship between dreaming and psychosis. the commonality being the lack of insight. e.g. accepting that flying pink car as just something that is normal. is dreaming just psychosis while asleep? is psychosis just dreaming whilst awake? is there such a thing as lucid psychosis? i'm not sure what i'm really asking here, but i'd love to hear any theories and experiences...

[Howie]

That is a very interseting question voidofform! As I believe with any disorder there are ofcoarse different levels and complexities of that particular disease. From what I understand from schizophrenia people can become detached from soceity and can have multiple personalities as well. I do believe they feel they are conscious throughout each event however abstract it may seem to someone who is not altered by the disorder I would like to look more into the secifics of schizophrenia.

[voidofform]

i had another lucid this morning (wbtb rocks muchly btw). in it i was talking to my mother, and i was analysing what was happening, and just how her voice was turning up into my consciousness, and it was not coming from inside my head like the voices i listen to in bed in the evenings, it was actually coming in through what seemed like normal real life hearing. completely realistic and undistinguishable from how real life works. but at the same time, i was engaged with the dream, talking to her like i'd do in real life. the experience seemed impossible not to engage in. the question struck me, "is this what psychosis is like?"

[nightowl]

i know nothing of this kind of stuff, but O'nus might be able to give some insight if he's around

[Dew Dust]

Very good question voidofform. I would say it sure feels like schizophrenia when in dream world. However, there are a lot more to schizophrenia and other disorders that would distinguish even a normal, healthy person's dreams to the real deal that is experienced in real life. With schizophrenia, and other certain disorders, the person would experience loss of social and academic skills. In a normal person's dream, we are still aware of who we are and can still do basic functions of thinking and education. A schizophrenic has a hard time to 'think straight' at all. Also, a schizophrenic is 'emotional deprived.' We definitely have emotions in our dreams. With schizophrenia, the hallucinations or delusions are actually "distorted perceptions of reality." Check interviews with schizophrenias and they will tell you that their hallucinations are realistic, but distorted--nothing like a dream world of a purple cat or flying cars which are not realistic. As for hearing voices though (which is another form of hallucinations), that can be similiar to that of a schizophrena as long as it is within the basis of reality. Usually, a schizophrenic is paranoid and hear voices from the CIA, secret governments, etc--again, part of reality, just a distorted perception. What about the devil, you might ask. If it is an ingrained belief and the person believes it as being reality then someone can hear voices from devil because it is reality to them. Schizophrena usually develops in the teen years for both males and females so they know and have a taste of reality around them. I also have an interest in abnormal psychology as my college terms it It is fascinating to study the brain and learn of these behaviors. I must say though, dreaming can give us an idea how a schizophrenic may feel at times.

[zwishenzug]

I have a great deal of experience working with people with schizophrenia (SZ) and so I have a respectable amount of knowledge of it. I also once asked my psychopathology professor if SZ can be conceptualized as dreaming while awake. Her answer is what follows (with a touch of background added by me): Psychosis is a break from reality, usually identified by hallucinations and delusions. The hallucinations are similar to the perceptions that occur during dreaming, and the delusions are similar the gullibility of a person in a non-lucid dream. HOWEVER, the delusions and hallucinations a person with SZ experiences is PROFOUNDLY less intense than a dream. A dreamer is fully immersed in an unreal environment. A person with SZ is immersed in a real environment that is contaminated by hallucinations and delusions. That is, in contrast to dreaming, delusions and hallucinations do not fully overcome reality. One of the most fascinating things about SZ is how can a person perceive and believe things that are so profoundly untrue or impossible?! I asked this question to a young guy with SZ and he told me that it is like being gullible to yourself. John Nash, the subject of the movie A Beautiful Mind, said that his delusions came as naturally as his gift for math so he never questioned them. I think this is a really fascinating topic and I want to talk more about it, but it'd go better if we went back and forth instead of my saying everything I know about dreaming and psychosis and schizophrenia all at once. Get back to me in a PM if necessary. Originally posted by Howetzer From what I understand from schizophrenia people can become detached from soceity and can have multiple personalities as well. That is a very common idea about SZ. It is true that social detachment occurs, and occurs quite frequently. Many people with SZ become isolated because normal social interaction can be near impossible for some. The main effect of becoming isolated is depression. The idea about multiple personalities comes from the etymology of the word "schizophrenia" which means "split mind." The "split" refers to the rift that forms between the different mental faculties (e.g., perception & sensation, and cognitions & beliefs). The term is a little outdated and current research has not found such robust splits in these and other mental properties. Multiple personalities are a whole other story which should be saved for another conversation.

[Dew Dust]

Oh zwishenzug, you should post here of your experiences though. This is a fasciniating topic and I am sure many of us would love to discuss it (I know I am ^_^ )

[voidofform]

deleted: TMI and off topic

[l3xicon]

OMG! where is Tsen? Tsen *whistles* here boy! they r talking about u!!!!!

[zwishenzug]

Self-diagnosed hmm? I'll bet that your interest in and knowledge of different mental disorders has greatly increased as of late. I've experienced the same thing, and it is informally referred to as "medical student syndrome"--where you start learning about the problems people can have and start diagnosing your friends, yourself, or random folks with the different disorders, usually whatever disorder you're studying at the moment. Not to say that you don't have these traits, but I thought you'd think it interesting to learn of a phenomena that could color your diagnostic judgement. Schizoid personality disorder is often considered baby-SZ. There is even a subtype called "Schizoid Personality Disorder (Premorbid)," referring to when it occurs prior to the onset of SZ. It sounds like your schizoid personality traits echos of the "neither desires nor enjoys close relationships..." symptom. Or perhaps the "shows emotional coldness, detachment, or flattened affectivity" symptom. I wonder if one of the Paranoid Personality Disorder symptoms might be more descriptive of your personality. Like, "unjustified doubts about the loyalty or trustworthiness of friends or associates," or "suspects, without sufficient basis, that others are exploiting, harming, or deceiving him or her," or maybe "reluctant to confide in others because of unwarranted fear that the information will be used maliciously agianst him or her." Schizoid Personality Disorder is exceptionally rare, even in clinical settings, but Paranoid Personality Disorder ranges from 0.5%-2.5% in the general population. So statistically it would be more likely you'd be experiencing paranoid symptoms. SZ's positive sypmptoms are responsible for paranoia. Specifically, delusions of persecution and grandeur. Many people with SZ believe they are special in some way (e.g., special powers, special knowledge). These delusions of grandeur can easily lead straight into delusions of persecution (e.g., government out to get them because of their powers). I have a bunch of cool experiences I could share, but instead of trying to guess which ones to tell, perhaps you could point me in a direction. I have good stories about: schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder, bipolar disorder (including rapid cycling with psychotic features), major depression, autism, and a variety of eating disorders. Most of them were related to me from the actual people whose stories they are, but a couple are from books written by the person telling his or her story.

[Keurslager]

If anyone is still interested in psychosis, I'm up for talking about it. I've been diagnosed with some kind of unknown chronic psychosis (not schizophrenia, or at least I don't think so (I'm only 14)) And I've been institutionalised for a month, so if anyone is interested in talking about it, I'm up for questions (remember though, my psychosis was reasonably low on some traits like hallucinations, being more auditory and low level visual). On the topic of dreaming, I haven't found any changes in dream sequences, aside from the fact that the antipsychotic medications make WILDing impossible for me (not possible to lie still anymore) and my dream recall is impaired.

[Howie]

Originally posted by Keurslager If anyone is still interested in psychosis, I'm up for talking about it. I've been diagnosed with some kind of unknown chronic psychosis (not schizophrenia, or at least I don't think so (I'm only 14)) And I've been institutionalised for a month, so if anyone is interested in talking about it, I'm up for questions *(remember though, my psychosis was reasonably low on some traits like hallucinations, being more auditory and low level visual). On the topic of dreaming, I haven't found any changes in dream sequences, aside from the fact that the antipsychotic medications make WILDing impossible for me (not possible to lie still anymore) and my dream recall is impaired. I commend you for taking questions Keurslager. Thank you! Have you ever had a difficult time differentiating any of your dreams to that of your waking life?

[Keurslager]

[quote] I commend you for taking questions Keurslager. Thank you! Have you ever had a difficult time differentiating any of your dreams to that of your waking life? No problem I enjoy talking about it, and I don't really get too many people to talk to it because I'm a teenager, and many teens don't understand the difference between the psychopathic killer and the normal person who is mentally ill. On the topic of your question, yes, it has been difficult for a long while to differentiate dreams with real life, especially as my dreams are quite normal, and they are just as hazy as a lot of my memory.

[Howie]

Originally posted by Keurslager No problem *I enjoy talking about it, and I don't really get too many people to talk to it because I'm a teenager, and many teens don't understand the difference between the psychopathic killer and the normal person who is mentally ill. On the topic of your question, yes, it has been difficult for a long while to differentiate dreams with real life, especially as my dreams are quite normal, and they are just as hazy as a lot of my memory. I can certainly understand the frustration of people generalizing about these conditions and making false assumptions. That is very interesting. Hypothetically speaking you have a lucid dream. Since there are no boundaries in the dream world (for all intent purposes) and there is of coarse limits and repercussions to what one does in the "real " world. Do you think lucid dreaming would or could be dangerous in your situation? Again, thank you for sharing your information!

[Keurslager]

[quote] I can certainly understand the frustration of people generalizing about these conditions and making false assumptions. That is very interesting. Hypothetically speaking you have a lucid dream. Since there are no boundaries in the dream world (for all intent purposes) and there is of coarse limits and repercussions to what one does in the "real " world. Do you think lucid dreaming would or could be dangerous in your situation? Again, thank you for sharing your information! I don't think lucid dreaming could be a big danger for me, at least not yet, as I've only had 3 lucids up to now, but I can definitely see your point, and I think it could be quite dangerous confusing the allmightiness of LDs and real life, where one depends on interaction with other people. With some types of psychosis this is a bigger danger than mine, as my psychosis is somewhere between paranoid schizophrenia and psychotic depression, I watch my actions more than some psychotic folk would. However, I've found that psychosis makes one very apathetic towards others' needs, so it could definitely prove to be a problem. Again, thanks for giving me something to talk about at 1 in the morning (or at least here in Switzerland it is).

[Keurslager]

Oh something interesting that I just thought up, which might interest some, is that when I hear voices, I can influence the theme, and even the people that are speaking. For example, once I was in a religious mood, and was under the impression that demons had possessed me, and at night the things that talked to me had skewed demonic voices. Also, when I think alot about one person at night, the people would either talk about that person, or that person would talk to/about me, so there is an element of lucidity to psychosis (in my experience).

[voidofform]

cool, that was something i'd always wondered, if any influence over the voices was possible... i have noticed lately if i spend an evening around people (which is unusual for me, i'm not very social) then when i go to bed, i lie quietly, and tune into them, i get their voices rattling around in my head, usually either repeating phrases i've heard that evening, or just gibberish, or sometimes even singing songs i know. does this sound like what you've experienced? or do they seem seem more external? btw, thanks for sharing, i'm really interested in understanding all this...

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by voidofform in particular the relationship between dreaming and psychosis. *the commonality being the lack of insight. *e.g. accepting that flying pink car as just something that is normal. . Perhaps the purpose of Lucid Dreaming is to provide a Conscious Perspective that would impose Reality Standards into Dreaming. Recently I had a Dream in which I saw that I had two Data Inputs into my Dreaming -- one stream of Data was the perceptual Data, but the second stream of data was PERSPECTIVE. That instance you mentioned of tiny flying pink cars with elephants would then be reconciled. So, perhaps a psychotic unreality is as pathological in Dreaming as it is in Waking. If, after years of Lucid Dreaming, one's ordinary dreams become more sensible and realistic, then we must begin to focus our attention on those who persist in those more primitive and psychotic dreams... of tiny flying cars with elephants. It would be interesting to do a sidebyside personality profile study, on those who have sensible realistic dreams against those whose dreams remain primitive and without standard dimensions or perspectives. I would anticipate that one would notice a certain dysfunctionality in the unimproved Dreamer.

[Keurslager]

Something else that really interests me about mental illness, is its inexplicable link to smoking. 75 to 90% of all people diagnosed with schizophrenia smokes, and I'm no exception. Has anyone else ever thought about this?