Lucid Dreaming In Reverse: Dream Persona Possession

[Leo Volont]

Lucid Dreaming In Reverse: Dream Persona Possession As I have said before, Lucid Dreaming is intended to Integrate the Waking Self with the Dreaming Persona. But it does beg the question of whether the Dreaming Persona could also visit the Waking State and ‘take control’ just as the Waking Self invades and usurps the Dream World from the Dream Persona during Lucid Dreaming. One needs to wonder about certain experiences as perhaps indicating that the Dreaming Persona had paid a visit and had taken over the house – when one ‘loses control of oneself’, or one’s behavior during drunken fugue states which are not remembered the next morning. In extreme cases we have the phenomena of multiple personality, where we can begin to conceptualize these competing Personalities as being Dream Personas invading Waking Life just as our Waking Selves take over in Dreams during Lucidity. Now, ordinarily I would warn everybody to be extremely careful of allowing a Dream Persona’s taking over one’s Life. Ordinarily Dream Personas are more primitive than our Waking Selves. And often it is actually encouraged. How many dreamers will admit that they go to sleep in the hopes of enjoying some primitive experiences of the more morally indulgent Dream Persona. People go to sleep hoping for sex and violence, but little thought is given regarding the possibility that one is encouraging and strengthening these impulses within oneself, or the likelihood that one is building the strength and the substance of the Dreaming Persona. One should worry that a particularly strong Dream Persona might take over. But then there can be some peculiar developments. Now, understand that I am an old man and have been working with my dreams and doing Lucid Dreaming for decades now. I’ve been startled lately to find that in many cases my Dream Persona is a better person then my Waking Self. Kinder, braver, more intelligent, more persuasive, and more effective. Anyway, it appears that my program for Moralizing and Integrating the Waking Self into the Dream Persona has succeeded in its direction. The Dream Persona is no longer an indulged Primitive. But the Dream Persona has seen the Direction I have pointed and has continued on even until it has passed me by. It has become the Person I wish I was. Well, then, if such is the case, I would have nothing much to fear from my Dream Persona stepping into my Life to take control once in a while.

[Leo Volont]

Of course, most people would see this in terms of the more ordinary terminologies of Conscious Mind and Subconscious Mind. But I chose to make it more personal. We know ourselves, and we meet with our Dream Personas every night in Dreaming. So why be clinical about such an intimate relationship?

[blade5x]

My Dream Persona wants sex. I'm 19 years old and I want sex. I guess we are alike But seriously, all joking aside, aren't our "dream persona" mostly based off what we want in real-life? The only thing I would really fear from my dream persona, is my dream persona having no fear.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by blade5x My Dream Persona wants sex. I'm 19 years old and I want sex. I guess we are alike But seriously, all joking aside, aren't our "dream persona" mostly based off what we want in real-life? The only thing I would really fear from my dream persona, is my dream persona having no fear. Well, Aristotle had said that all Teenagers are Barbarians. In the Military they refer to teenage soldiers as "young, dumb, and full of come". Nothing much is expected of them. But it is odd that you are worried about fear. Most Teenagers are unconcerned with fear. That is why the Military insists upon sending such actual children to War... it is because they have no fear... the sense of their own Mortality has not set in quite yet. That usually happens at about the age of 22 or soon after. You must have been traumatized to be so precocious in your Fear. Anyway, it is okay to want to have Sex in one's Dreams. But the important thing is to go about it in the same way as one would do while awake. One must be charming and seductive so that one's partners are willing or at least complacent. One must never surrender to impulses in a dream that one would be ashamed of in waking life. Or that would be criminal in waking life. The rule to live by is IF IT WOULD GET YOU INTO TROUBLE IN REAL LIFE, DON'T DO IT IN A DREAM. It is dangerous to nurture impulses that your social survival depends on you being able to suppress. Yes, the Dream Persona is based on what we want in Real Life. But there is often a lag. As we grow from carefree children to adults we can develop ambitions of Character or even Spiritual Ambitions. But the Dream Persona might be left behind with hormone-driven desires and curiousities regarding Sex, or the War Games and the Violence that come as a vestige from our primitive past. So it is that we need to monitor our Dream Persona's behavior in our Dreams -- the choices and responses that are made. Then we need to critique them, and then initiate a program of Suggestion in order to modify bad choices and responses and replace them with good choices and responses. If you are entirely happy with your Dream Persona... well, that is either very good or very bad. It shows that you have either reached all of your goals, or that you have none. Now, again about Fear. What is wrong with Dream Fearlessness? Remember, your Dream Persona will ever be your Dream Persona. Dreams are different. When one can levitate and fly in Dreams, there is no danger that one will jump off of a building while awake. One simply knows the difference. There will come a time... when you are about 24... when you will have dreams of being pursued. Dreams where you feel as though you are slowed and cannot escape. These are dreams where you are being acquainted with your own Mortality. The point is a bit paradoxical. You are supposed to turn and face your Monster and get killed... to die... but to really benefit, one must stay in the dream ... NOT WAKE UP .... for if one can stay dead and in the dream for just about 20 seconds, then one COMES BACK TO LIFE. This is a pivotal development in Dreaming and sets the Dreaming Persona free for a great many possibilities previously discounted out of fear of coming to harm or injury. When the Dreaming Persona realizes through actual experience that it cannot die, or rather that it will not stay dead, then it becomes Brave. And in being Brave it can then begin scaling the Spiritual Ladder and ascend to higher planes. Those Entities usually charged with defending such Level have no weapons to use against the Truly Fearless... the Dreamer Convinced of his own Dreaming Immortality. Yes, it is a Paradox, that as we become aware in our Waking Self of our own Mortality, the Dream Persona is realized in exactly the opposite conviction -- that it is Deathless.

[blade5x]

Maybe I over-emphasized or you did, the word fear in my case. You're forgetting.. I still am a teenager. I'll have to note that for age 24. Hope my expectations don't... I think my Dream Persona realizes that it cannot die... from all the nightmares I had from when I was like 5

[Merlock]

...Dream Persona? You're actually separating the conscious mind and subconscious mind into two different characters? Bogus.

[kaotic169]

Originally posted by Merlock ...Dream Persona? You're actually separating the conscious mind and subconscious mind into two different characters? Bogus. I'm definitely on his side... And if this "Dream Persona" that you speak of can take over your consious self... Wouldn't that mean that you just have a weak or possible chemically imbalanced mind?

[Distant Clone]

My thoughts tend to be scattered, let's see how well I can organize them. I think "lucidty" as most refer to it, is our conscious awareness in our subconscious' environment. The reverse would be our subconscious awareness in our conscious environment. More or less, we will be going through the day on cruise control or auto pilot. I find that happens quite often. I think the conscious and subconscious are the same person, just from a different time. Our conscious can converge to the subconscious, however once we actually integrate them and they are the same, they unify and become one. That's actually a goal of mine. For now I am looking to become emotionally uninvolved in dreams. For example, I don't want to become upset and smack the hell out of someone. Doing it absent-mindedly, I have no problem doing as it's part of the symbolism. However, if I also do it because I don't like the person, that's different. Recent Dream I'm actually ahead of the curve I think. In one of my latest dreams, humanity had encroached to close into animal territory. This caused a power shift, and now it was time for the animals to take control of our nation, namely the apes. They were in the forest cutting trees down. I asked one ape to leave one tree standing so I could build myself a treehouse, which was refused. Then sitting with a friend, there were two dogs running loose, since their owners lost their homes. A third dog jumped through a fence and ran over to my friend and I. The dog immediately bit my right hand, at which point my friend was freaking out. I stayed calm the entire dream, even as I was petting the dog's head so he would stop biting.

[Raylin]

I have to agree with Merlock and kaotic. And what's this about specific ages: At 22 you gain a sense of mortality, and at 24 you start having 'chase' dreams? That's illogical. There is no 'magic age' when things like that happen, and someone won't necessarily ever have a dream where they're being pursued. The idea that your dream persona could take over your waking persona also makes no sense. Your idea of what these two things are doesn't seem to be backed up by any evidence or logic. In fact, most of your ideas lack logic.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by kaotic169 I'm definitely on his side... And if this "Dream Persona" that you speak of can take over your consious self... Wouldn't that mean that you just have a weak or possible chemically imbalanced mind? The Materialistic Explanation. What came first, the chicken or the egg. Every Spiritual Development has a bio-chemical shadow. But does the shadow cause the body or the body cause the shadow. One needs to be careful about mixing up cause and effect.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Distant Clone Recent Dream I'm actually ahead of the curve I think. In one of my latest dreams, humanity had encroached to close into animal territory. This caused a power shift, and now it was time for the animals to take control of our nation, namely the apes. They were in the forest cutting trees down. I asked one ape to leave one tree standing so I could build myself a treehouse, which was refused. Then sitting with a friend, there were two dogs running loose, since their owners lost their homes. A third dog jumped through a fence and ran over to my friend and I. The dog immediately bit my right hand, at which point my friend was freaking out. I stayed calm the entire dream, even as I was petting the dog's head so he would stop biting. You had a dream that the animals were taking over. yeap. They call it Democracy.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Merlock ...Dream Persona? You're actually separating the conscious mind and subconscious mind into two different characters? Bogus. Oh, I'm so sorry that the reality of my empirical experiences are interferring with your intellectual constructs.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Raylin I have to agree with Merlock and kaotic. And what's this about specific ages: At 22 you gain a sense of mortality, and at 24 you start having 'chase' dreams? That's illogical. There is no 'magic age' when things like that happen, and someone won't necessarily ever have a dream where they're being pursued. The idea that your dream persona could take over your waking persona also makes no sense. Your idea of what these two things are doesn't seem to be backed up by any evidence or logic. In fact, most of your ideas lack logic. Oh, yeah. did you forget my example of Multiple Personality. Where do such continuous and unified personalities come from? Their formation must have occurred somewhere before they surfaced up to take over Waking Control. My contention... a reasonable one... is that these Secondary and Tertiary Personalities started as Dream Personas. So much for your logic. Logic is only one thing.... one must also have some knowledge of the World.

[Raylin]

Where is the logic that backs up your theory that they originated as dream personas though? I see no reason for that to be true.

[Merlock]

Every being is one self. The one single ego responsible for everything from simple thought to realization and so on. Theories of multiple personalities or that horrible theory of all beings being tied to one single being simply for the sake of experiences in all its different forms throughout existance - bogus. And, as stated already, you're merely stating this...theory, if it can be called that, without constructive upkeep. That makes it nothing more than an illusion. Empirical experiences ARE the only thing anyone can take any knowledge from and be 100% sure of it. Saying "Hmm, I grasp knowledge from theory" is equivalent to being delusional all together. Don't confuse illusionary concepts with "intellectual constructs". Or if you're going to do this at least provide a simple statement explaining how you came to realize this idea of multiple personalities. At least then there will be some grounds for further debate.

[MAO]

Although i have a slightly different opnion. You and your Persona share in the uptake of experiances, what you don't experiance enough in day life your dream self takes upon itself to experiance. Simple proof being that you usually don't have dreams about sex after you've had sex, or dreams about food when your full. I personally believe that manifesting your subconsious selves into your daily life is dangerous, as they live in worlds which appear extra-ordinary to ourselves and may not act respectfully. I'd also like some more information on how your acomplishing this. Two me these two parts of myself seem to deeply twined in what their natural purpose is to remove them.

[invadergarf]

Originally posted by Leo Volont One must never surrender to impulses in a dream that one would be ashamed of in waking life. Or that would be criminal in waking life. The rule to live by is IF IT WOULD GET YOU INTO TROUBLE IN REAL LIFE, DON'T DO IT IN A DREAM. It is dangerous to nurture impulses that your social survival depends on you being able to suppress. I don't agree. When I'm lucid, I know i'm dreaming and so know that I can do whatever I want. If I did something which wouldn't be allowed in real life or that I would be ashamed of in real life, to me, it wouldn't matter, because I know i'm dreaming. When i'm awake in the real world, I know i'm not dreaming and so would not do anything like that. Lucid dreaming I think would be a good way to do the things you aren't allowed to do in real life. Sure, I definitely have limitations to what I would do in a lucid dream (and there are heaps of things I wouldn't and don't do in a lucid dream even if I have the chance), but even if I did them it wouldn't mean that it would effect how I act in real life, I wouldn't then decide to do the same thing in real life. I might even be more cautious in real life not to do those things. Basically, even though I am moral and stuff in my dreams, I don't think that surrendering to your impulses in dreams would do that much harm.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Raylin Where is the logic that backs up your theory that they originated as dream personas though? I see no reason for that to be true. This isn't math. This is emperical experience. You are retrogressing by 2500 years. Aristotle would never experiment. He would derive all Truth through first intuition and logic. All that mattered was reasonable sounding explanations. Logic. He never actually tried out anything. You are the same way. The Real World and actual Behaviors are unimportant. You want something to sound good. to use the words you are familiar with. You are a materialist and want everything in terms of materialism. Well, maybe you should consider becoming bilingual.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by invadergarf I don't agree. When I'm lucid, I know i'm dreaming and so know that I can do whatever I want. If I did something which wouldn't be allowed in real life or that I would be ashamed of in real life, to me, it wouldn't matter, because I know i'm dreaming. When i'm awake in the real world, I know i'm not dreaming and so would not do anything like that. Lucid dreaming I think would be a good way to do the things you aren't allowed to do in real life. Sure, I definitely have limitations to what I would do in a lucid dream (and there are heaps of things I wouldn't and don't do in a lucid dream even if I have the chance), but even if I did them it wouldn't mean that it would effect how I act in real life, I wouldn't then decide to do the same thing in real life. I might even be more cautious in real life not to do those things. Basically, even though I am moral and stuff in my dreams, I don't think that surrendering to your impulses in dreams would do that much harm. Yes, you disagree with me. You are constantly training and conditioning your Dream Persona to do the most depraved and evil of things with the excuse that you know you are dreaming... you know you are on the side of the line that doesn't matter... no harm, no foul. But you are training and habituating a Personality Complex in depravity and evil. What if you ever get drunk and and black out but don't fall down but keep on going. What will keep that Personality from rising up and sending you off to jail? What if you ever sleep walk? What if you ever go Schizo? Now you are young. What if you will slowly and incrementally grow into this very Personality that you now think doesn't matter. where do you think Dirty Old Men... Evil Old Bastards come from? Do you think they such black hearted slugs when they were 18 years old. NO. But they were dreaming it. The purpose of Lucid Dreaming is to STOP the evil, not enjoy it and indulge it. If you continue in this way, your dreams will progressively darken, and you will begin to find that what you were once ashamed of, in Real Life, no longer seems as bad as you once thought. That Personality that you allowed and indulged will take over your life. Look at Bill Clinton... when he was 18 years old, do you think he wanted to Screw Up a Presidency someday. No one was more idealistic. But he did not discipline his dreams and so as the years went on a complex of impulse motivations surfaced which he could not suppress because it was no longer in his Personality to suppress. As the Old Gurus used to say, The Dream Persona makes a good servant but a bad master. So don't allow your Dream Persona to do anything you wouldn't want to do yourself... in front of your friends and family.

[Raylin]

Je dois devenir bilingue? Bon, je deviendrai si vous deviendrez aussi. I'm not unwilling to accept empirical experience, on the contrary, I rely on it in order to accept anything absolutely. This is precisely why I can't accept what you're saying though, because it lacks any solid evidence. My looking for logic in it is just my way of trying to accept that it could be possible without this evidence. Alas, as your claims have neither logic nor evidence, they're unacceptable. Oh, and it's ironic that you say I rely only on logic and not evidence, then say I'm materialistic. To respond to your idea that you shouldn't do anything in dreams that you wouldn't (or to be more accurate: shouldn't) do in real life, is not in itself ludicrous, even if it is silly. The idea that doing 'bad things' in your dreams means "you are training and habituating a Personality Complex in depravity and evil" is ludicrous. I'll admit that you may be strengthening your capacity for doing these evil things, but you're again suggesting that you should worry your waking mind and dreaming mind will mix, which isn't plausible. You say one should be afraid of what they'll do if they ever turn schizophrenic, but is that really a rational thing to be worried about? No. It's highly unlikely, and if we're worrying about it, we may as well just strap ourselves into straitjackets now. The thing that really bothers me however, is that you make up examples. Your example of BIll Clinton, for instance, has come purely from your imagination. You've just decided that his failures were an effect of him deciding not to 'discipline his dreams'. That's preposterous. If you want people to take your ideas seriously, you have to back them up with logical reasoning and solid evidence, not fallacious arguments, fabricated examples, and condescension.

[Distant Clone]

Originally posted by invadergarf When I'm lucid, I know i'm dreaming and so know that I can do whatever I want. If I did something which wouldn't be allowed in real life or that I would be ashamed of in real life, to me, it wouldn't matter, because I know i'm dreaming. When i'm awake in the real world, I know i'm not dreaming and so would not do anything like that. I have a hypothetical situation for you. Suppose you one day wake up and realize that life is a giant shared dream, and it becomes a newfound lucidity. One day you will wake up from this dream, i.e. die. Does that now make it alright to do whatever you wish while awake? Do you now restrict your dream activities? Do you do both or neither?

[Merlock]

Originally posted by Leo Volont Aristotle would never experiment. He would derive all Truth through first intuition and logic. All that mattered was reasonable sounding explanations. Logic. He never actually tried out anything. Of course logic is more important; of course all new solutions, realizations, all those things that really make a difference and have an effect in the long run are derived from logic. Though that doesn't mean that empirical experience should be cast aside all together. After all, without our own experiences our logic would be weak and folly.

[invadergarf]

Originally posted by Leo Volont You are constantly training and conditioning your Dream Persona to do the most depraved and evil of things with the excuse that you know you are dreaming... you know you are on the side of the line that doesn't matter... no harm, no foul. But you are training and habituating a Personality Complex in depravity and evil. Woah! I'm not training myself in anything evil, I don't go crazy in dreams and do that much that I wouldn't do in real life, as I said, I have morals and stuff still while I dream. My personality isn't going anywhere near the side of depravity and evil! I don't use dreaming as an excuse to do "the most depraved and evil of things", though I know many people do. All I said was that I didn't think that surrendering to your impulses in your dream would do much harm. Basically, If I somehow ended up doing something which I didn't want to do, which I wouldn't be allowed to do in real life, I wouldn't stress myself over it because it is just a dream. I wouldn't go and do it again on purpose, I would work even harder not to do it again (in the dream world and real life). Originally posted by Leo Volont What if you ever get drunk and and black out but don't fall down but keep on going. What will keep that Personality from rising up and sending you off to jail? What if you ever sleep walk? What if you ever go Schizo? Now you are young. What if you will slowly and incrementally grow into this very Personality that you now think doesn't matter. where do you think Dirty Old Men... Evil Old Bastards come from? Do you think they such black hearted slugs when they were 18 years old. NO. But they were dreaming it. Basically, I will be what keeps "that personality from rising up and sending me off to jail". I work hard in real life to do what is right and it does follow on in my dreams. All I'm saying is that if I did something wrong that I don't think it would cause that much harm. I'm not saying that I do it or plan on doing it. I'm not growing into any personality that I don't want to go up into. Just because I don't think that doing something which you usually wouldn't be allowed to do in a dream wouldn't matter too much doesn't mean that I'll turn out like an insane evil maniac. Originally posted by Leo Volont+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leo Volont)</div> Look at Bill Clinton... when he was 18 years old, do you think he wanted to Screw Up a Presidency someday. No one was more idealistic. But he did not discipline his dreams and so as the years went on a complex of impulse motivations surfaced which he could not suppress because it was no longer in his Personality to suppress. [/b] You can't seriously say that you know for sure that what Bill Clinton did was because of his dreams, you can only guess. I understand your example though and what you basically mean. Originally posted by Leo Volont+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leo Volont)</div> The purpose of Lucid Dreaming is to STOP the evil, not enjoy it and indulge it. If you continue in this way, your dreams will progressively darken, and you will begin to find that what you were once ashamed of, in Real Life, no longer seems as bad as you once thought. That Personality that you allowed and indulged will take over your life. [/b] <!--QuoteBegin-Leo Volont@ So don't allow your Dream Persona to do anything you wouldn't want to do yourself... in front of your friends and family. So basically you are saying that I should do absolutely nothing evil in my dreams? The worst i've ever done in a dream is kissed girls, lol. Does that even count as evil? Do you think that I should stop even that, because that's all that I can think of which I do in my dreams which I wouldn't do in front of friends and family? Hopefully that doesn't sound sarcastic, i'm asking a serious question. Do you think that that will progressively darken my dreams and my dream persona? <!--QuoteBegin-Distant Clone I have a hypothetical situation for you. Suppose you one day wake up and realize that life is a giant shared dream, and it becomes a newfound lucidity. One day you will wake up from this dream, i.e. die. Does that now make it alright to do whatever you wish while awake? Do you now restrict your dream activities? Do you do both or neither? Hmmm, that's a good question. Well, I already restrict myself in dreams, but more so in life definitely. As the world being a giant shared dream, I still wouldn't do whatever I wish because everyone else is there as well. It is more than just in my head. Whether i'd be even more careful in my own dreams would depend on whether they too are shared dreams. Even now though I be careful in dreams just in case I am in a shared dream without realising it, so I guess i'd be more careful as it might be more of a chance that my dreams are also shared. Just to clarify, by "When I'm lucid, I know i'm dreaming and so know that I can do whatever I want...etc" I didn't mean that I actually do! I did say that I am moral and have things that I don't do in dreams. I do restrict myself (probably more than a lot of people on here seem to). Basically I mean that I know I'm able to do whatever I want and that it most probably wouldn't have many consequences.

[fairytale complex]

my dream persona has surpased me aswell. not in every dream, but in some it is apparent.

[invadergarf]

my dream persona has surpased me aswell. not in every dream, but in some it is apparent. [/b] What do you mean by your dream persona has surpassed you? Maybe I don't understand correctly. Is your dream persona controlling your lucid self?