Dream Personas: The Multiplied And Magnified Self

[Leo Volont]

Dream Personas: The Multiplied and Magnified Self I have often expressed the idea that the great cosmic purpose for Lucid Dreaming is to give the Waking Self some opportunity to have some influence upon one’s more primitive dream personas, to have a civilizing effect on the wild man in our dreams. But recently I have noticed that my Dream Personas have been more accomplished and civilized then I can truthfully give my Waking Self the same degree of credit for. So then I am struck by the realization that my description of the Purpose for Lucid Dreaming may have been turned on its head – that Lucid Dreaming may be allowing the Waking Self to have a more intimate and influential contact with Higher and Better Selves generated within the Realms of Dreaming. Now, both teleological models for Lucid Dreaming, though opposites, may still both in fact be true, depending on one’s stage of maturity and development. At first, the Civilizing Impulse may well have to come from the Waking Self, but then, once the ambition and aspiration for improvement has begun, the Dreaming Personas, with so many more opportunities for experience, may outpace the Waking Self in moral and spiritual development. If this is truly the case, then one might expect the possibility that the entire Lucid Dynamic could be reversed, that the Dreaming Persona could take possession of the Waking Self in the same way that the Waking Self had been taking over the Dreaming Personas during Lucid Dreaming. The Dream Personas could experience ‘Lucid Waking’ where they would impose their own agenda and controls on our Waking Lives that we try to impose upon their Dreaming Existence during our successes with Lucid Dreaming. Such may be exactly what happens during instances of schizophrenic episodes of multiple personality – dominant Dream Personas rise up and take over the Waking Life and exercise a strict and exclusive control, blocking out the continuity of consciousness of the Waking Self so that memory can no longer account for every segment of the day, some hours being unaccounted for. Again this does point out the useful necessity for using Lucid Dreaming in order to integrate the Waking Self with the dominant Dream Personas – for if the Waking and the Dreaming Selves can grow and merge together, then it obviates the possibility that the Dream Personas would have to entirely push aside a Waking Self that is or seems too incompatible to its own agenda. Equally, this might remind us that, as we would not appreciate it if a Dream Persona were to invade our Waking Life and cut us totally out of our own body’s experience, so we might exercise some consideration and restraint when we become Lucid and step into the dominant position within Dreams – that when we begin to blast and destroy a Dream Scene with our much touted ‘control’, only to wake up moments later, we may well be leaving behind a destroyed and shattered Dream Realm for a devastated Dream Persona to deal with – to clean up after us. Many Lucid Dreamers have the personal philosophy that Lucid Dreaming is perfect for the ‘safe’ release of violent and sexual urges, as what happens in their Dreams harms nobody. The underlying assumption there is that dreams are meaningless and inherently worthless, beneath consideration. But consider that the Dreaming Persona may be held accountable for the rapes and the murders that you commit in Dream Land, long after you have had your fun and have woken up. I wonder whether the Courts in the Realms of Dreaming allow for Insanity Pleas, the same as are offered to Waking Selves who are victimized by Dream Personas doing the same to our Waking Lives as Lucid Dreamers would do to their World. Also, we must wonder how it affects the overall lives and characters of our Dream Personas, if we consistently visit their World only to exert the lowest and the most destructive and dysfunctional of influences. If the Dream Personas are, as the Materialists would have it, the embodiments of our Subconscious Mind, then we might worry if our own Conscious Actions in Lucid Dreaming are contributing toward the degeneration and abasement of the Subconscious Mind which in turn has such a strong subliminal influence upon our own waking impulses and motivations. So we should guard the integrity of our behavior, even during our dreams. No bird should foul its own nest, and we should not poop where we sleep… metaphorically speaking.

[Leo Volont]

Is there ever a GOOD Schizophrenia? The Early Christians used to speak of being Born Again. Nowadays that is all so much bullshit, as we know the personalities are remaining the same. Simply go to the 12 Step Meetings and watch as a continuous parade of "Born Again's" virtually bragg about how sinful they were up to a week ago. They are still speaking of themselves... their identity is still intact. But what of cases which have surely occurred where an Altar Persona simply rises up out of the Realm of Dreams and takes over control and direction of the Physical Body? The Materialistic Predisposition of all of our Cultural Assumptions would make such a case difficult to recognize. With our Materialistic Eyes we would only see the same BODY from yesterday still being before us today. But if we look at the narrative of people who have walked away from their former lives and gone on to entirely new beginning, and examine the language clinically for signs of Multiple Personality, then we can find enough instances to bolster the credibility of the Theory. It must have been seen in the Religious Orders back behind the walls of the Convents and Monasteries. We have Saint Bernard, the Super Star of the 11th Century, who precided over the hardest core of Religious Ascetics and Devotees, but even after being with him for years, they could not simply claim to be Born Again. It was not just bullshit propaganda back then... no flimsy articles of Faith back in the Age of Faith. The actual Persona would have to change. There would have to be the rise of a Holy Persona. Saint Bernard would be able to see the change from a mile away. There are two parallel stories, one of Saint Bernard and one regarding a Zen Master, both having monks under them who clamoured for results in the midst of all of their practices and techniques. They were both counselled to be patient and persevering. In both cases, while going to market and coming back the young monks experienced the turn over of Persona. And in both cases the Masters saw it from a mile away, far off down the road, time enough to throw together some little celebration and welcome ceremony for the New Persona.

[Howie]

I was just thinking about persona and if it has any correlation to auras. That is a bit of the subject though I think I may differ in our opinions on dream content and it's derivative, but I come to the same conclusion from another angle I have agreed all along that a person should act with proper conduct in and out of the dream world. Display in public or society their public image or personality that they would wish to uphold. For in a lucid dream I believe that dream characters and other manifestation of a dream scene are representations of yourself--from ourselves . So in effect, if one were to conduct themselves in a civilized manner in a dream, it would in turn influence their waking life. Just as it would when conducting yourself and conditioning yourself on a daily basis. Why do you suppose your situation has taken a turn? Do you feel your persona has regressed or taken a turn in waking life? Who and what would be the factor in this change? You or something you are not in control of? Am I missing the point?

[Leo Volont]

I was just thinking about persona and if it has any correlation to auras. That is a bit of the subject though I think I may differ in our opinions on dream content and it's derivative, but I come to the same conclusion from another angle I have agreed all along that a person should act with proper conduct in and out of the dream world. Display in public or society their public image or personality that they would wish to uphold. For in a lucid dream I believe that dream characters and other manifestation of a dream scene are representations of yourself--from ourselves . So in effect, if one were to conduct themselves in a civilized manner in a dream, it would in turn influence their waking life. Just as it would when conducting yourself and conditioning yourself on a daily basis. Why do you suppose your situation has taken a turn? Do you feel your persona has regressed or taken a turn in waking life? Who and what would be the factor in this change? You or something you are not in control of? Am I missing the point? [/b] Good! Sometimes I wonder if I am the only one who thinks like this. You have expressed very well what I have been thinking, and perhaps have put it much more succinctly then I have been doing. Now, to answer your very good questions... (and I at once find it odd that I am not asked more questions, considering the sweeping assertions I so often make). I first saw a trend in the general improvement of my Personas perhaps starting about a year ago. The Dreams symbolized the improvement with dreams of military promotion. I went from being an NCO... a sergeant... to being comissioned as a Major -- the bottom most of the Field Grade Officers, but a Field Grade Officer none the less. I remember in the dream asking whether I would be paid for it... not thinking it a real promotion unless it came with the remunerations and benefits. I was assured that all of that would follow. And then, to cover my other reoccurring motifs, I dreamt of finally Graduating, and then remembering that I had graduated dozens of times, and really had not need to continue my persistent returns to Dream Academia. Then there was a Dream where I was with something of a Spiritualist Convention -- every renown Orientalist and Yogin in the World was there. Invitation only. Quite an honor even to be invited. The odd part was that the Convention Center was under siege from Evil, and the doors had to be barracaded. I was thinking that if Evil were to penetrate from the front door, I would be the safest. When I began to think myself something of a coward for my safety, I reminded myself that if Evil were to come in the back way, then I would be among the first to die. So I concluded that it all evened out in the end. But the Convention Activities continued without constraint. It seems I had won a cooking competition. The Prize was to be awarded for the best Cake and decided by a panel of Judges. Well, what I had did was I went to the Judges and asked what kind of cake they liked, and how they preferred it be baked, even using suggested recipes and even enlisting the help of the Judges to bake the cake... all to make sure they got exactly what they preferred. So, when it came to the Judging, there was one cake they all thought was exquisitely wonderful -- the one they suggested, described, mixed and baked almost by themselves, with really not much assistence from myself. My part had been to understand the Contest better than everyone else had. One man THOUGHT the contest was intended to reward the person who best guessed what the judges would like, and who was the best baker. But really, nothing was said about being the best baker, but only about providing the Cake that the Judges would most prefer. But still, the young man, who I must admit was a far superior Chef to myself, was extremely irrate -- angry -- with me. I DID see his viewpoint and sympathized with him... afterall, he was young and it would take a lifetime before he understood things as well as myself... so I tried being nice and conciliatory and humble, but that only urked him all the more and off he went. I was feeling awkward that I had apparently made an enemy, when Old Neem Karali Baba, Ram Dass's Old Guru (Ramm Dass = Richard Alpert of "Be Here Now" fame, and an old friend of Timothy Leary from the LSD Days back in the sixties) came up to me and said, I think simply "Here, take this. It is Gold" and poured gold dust into my hand. And he walked away. So I ate the dust, not knowing what else to do with it. I took this as a vindication that I had behaved correctly at the Convention. Then there were the dreams with my deceased Father. We got along much better than in life. He even brought me a new Spiritual Technique -- the making the White Noise sound with one's breath rushing through one's teeth. That making that Shshshshs hissing sound will open the crown chakra and fill it with White Light. handy trick. Now, it is difficult to point out the improvement in my Dream Persona. The dignity of my behavior and the and intelligence of my decisions and statements, even under pressure... well, as vain as I can be at times, it all just seems a notch above what I have grown to expect from myself. Has there been any improvement in my Waking Self? Well, only with more maturity, but that is incremental. I have not noticed, nor have my acquaintances noticed what would have to be a 'different' me. But my intuition tells me that a jump from one Persona to another would require some shock or great impetus of energy. Yet, the literatures say that such 'Satori' transitions happen most unexpectedly. We will see. Oh, thanks for the very good questions.

[Ev]

Although I've read the entire thread I'll respond to the following passage: I have often expressed the idea that the great cosmic purpose for Lucid Dreaming is to give the Waking Self some opportunity to have some influence upon one’s more primitive dream personas, to have a civilizing effect on the wild man in our dreams. But recently I have noticed that my Dream Personas have been more accomplished and civilized then I can truthfully give my Waking Self the same degree of credit for. So then I am struck by the realization that my description of the Purpose for Lucid Dreaming may have been turned on its head – that Lucid Dreaming may be allowing the Waking Self to have a more intimate and influential contact with Higher and Better Selves generated within the Realms of Dreaming. [/b] Things arent what they seem to be, eh? But seriously, I've encountered a similar problem. I'll try to keep this brief and to the point. Sometimes my mind tries to prove its existence to me. These attempts are subtle, but they let me know that there exists some force within my mind that watches me and I have no control over it. So thinking about this force a question arose - does it help or hinder my lucid progress? There are a lot of cases when I become lucid cause of recurrent dream themes, random event or without any reason at all. At the same time there are some cases when my lucid progress is disrupted by attacks, FAs, dirty trickery and other things. These actions have a distinctly different feeling to them, they arent coming from the same source. This didnt make sense and recently I've realized why - I've been thinking of my mind as having 2 distinct parts - conscious mind and subconscious mind. I believed that subconscious is in charge of my dreams and that it's a uniform process. But this doesnt make sense. So I came up with a model where the subconscious mind is divided into multiple processes. Some are benevolent, most are neutral and few are outright hostile. There is no consistency for me - dreams from different part of the night may be incredibly different. Anyways - here's the main idea - there may be multiple processes present in your mind. Helpful and hindering for me, civilized and barbaric for you. What would happen if you start seeing barbaric dreams again? Would you revert back to your original idea ? While writing this I came up with another possible solution. It may be helpful if I provide an example of how my mind proves it's existence to me. It first started when I made a post long time ago stating that I never see realistic violence and gore in my dreams. Before that it was like "I shoot, person falls". The night after posting that I saw one of the most gory and violent dreams to date. It was obvious that my mind disagreed with what I posted and wanted to prove otherwise. It seems to me like the same thing happened to you - after posting about barbaric dream persona your mind showed you that this is not always the case.

[Leo Volont]

Anyways - here's the main idea - there may be multiple processes present in your mind. Helpful and hindering for me, civilized and barbaric for you. What would happen if you start seeing barbaric dreams again? Would you revert back to your original idea ? While writing this I came up with another possible solution. It may be helpful if I provide an example of how my mind proves it's existence to me. It first started when I made a post long time ago stating that I never see realistic violence and gore in my dreams. Before that it was like "I shoot, person falls". The night after posting that I saw one of the most gory and violent dreams to date. It was obvious that my mind disagreed with what I posted and wanted to prove otherwise. It seems to me like the same thing happened to you - after posting about barbaric dream persona your mind showed you that this is not always the case. [/b] Remember, I've been seriously dreaming since Dr. Ann Faraday published "Dream Power" back in 1969. 'Knock on wood', but I may have erradicated much of my barbarism. But, Ev, you have a very good point. One must Civilize the Mind a section at a time. My initial insight for this Post, which I may have forgotten before I took up pen and paper, was that there is more to consider than one primary waking self and one primary dream persona, but that there may be more than one Dream Persona... there may be a veritable plethora of Dream Personas. and, yes, we may have our Live's Work cut out for us in civilizing them all, one by one. Hopefully, there comes a Point of Critical Mass where no individual Dream Persona can any longer go against the strong current of what has become a unanimous impulse toward Civilization and Spirituality. Who knows, but maybe all the recent signs of my own Dream Integration may be prophetic of my impending death. Dream are meant to indicate the Rights of Passage and the Mile Stones of the Maturity Points in Life. and now I am Old. And so everything in my Dream World is now falling into Order. The Tunnel of White Light is preparing itself. Now, don't suppose it is all so automatic. I busted my ass this last 40 years in Spirituality and Dreaming. One should not wonder that I no longer have the hellish dreams that some teenager would have.

[Howie]

Has anyone heard of the "pain body" I recollect vaguely a book describing this pain body in great detail. Some have stronger pain bodies than others, dependent on their past experiences. Similar to a vibe an aura, gut feeling, instinct or what have you... a pain body, like an energy field, emanates to other people. Have you ever wondered why we have a "bad feeling" about someone? Yet not having a substantial reason why. Supposedly it is this pain body and the emanation that one gets from first encountering an individual. More often than not through conversation, hearsay and other external data we quickly give up the gut instinct we first had. Thinking back on this most of last night, before I went to bed....Sure as shit the people that I did not like off the bat, should have remained there. An illusion, to no surprise. In my dreams these feelings are much more frequent and common. (for me) A predominant dream character can come across very strong in one manner or another. But after I communicate with a DC they are uniquely alike. I wonder what it all means. Is there a message there? Is it all in my head, figuratively and literally speaking.

[JaphyR]

This didnt make sense and recently I've realized why - I've been thinking of my mind as having 2 distinct parts - conscious mind and subconscious mind. I believed that subconscious is in charge of my dreams and that it's a uniform process. But this doesnt make sense. So I came up with a model where the subconscious mind is divided into multiple processes.[/b] Maybe lucid dreaming is a mixing of the conscious and unconscious, rather than a divided unconscious? I agree with the big ideas in this thread - that playing with our unconscious while dreaming has consequences for who we are as a whole person. Think about the art of listening. A good listener will think openly about what is being said, and take it in before speaking. A poor listener, while listening, is really just thinking about what they themselves are going to say. Perhaps a "healthy dreamer" is aware of the unconscious encountered in dreams, while an "unhealthy dreamer" simply uses the conscious mind to walk all over the unconscious.

[Leo Volont]

Maybe lucid dreaming is a mixing of the conscious and unconscious, rather than a divided unconscious? I agree with the big ideas in this thread - that playing with our unconscious while dreaming has consequences for who we are as a whole person. Think about the art of listening. A good listener will think openly about what is being said, and take it in before speaking. A poor listener, while listening, is really just thinking about what they themselves are going to say. Perhaps a "healthy dreamer" is aware of the unconscious encountered in dreams, while an "unhealthy dreamer" simply uses the conscious mind to walk all over the unconscious. [/b] I think people should demand high standards of themselves in both waking and in sleeping. We shouldn't be expected to differentiate between Conscious and Subconscious or whether we are Lucid of Not Lucid. But we should make the Moral and Spiritual Choices and Responses that we would make anytime. Yes, often we will wake up disappointed with our decisions. Happens all the time. So we make it matter of reflection and suggestion that we have regrets and would like to replay the Dream Motif. It is sort of like applying to the Professor for a retest. And the Higher Dream Mind more often than not says "Yes, why not". For instance, for the longest time now I have been getting along quite well with my deceased father in my dreams, but the other night I had this outburst with him. When I awoke I thought, well now, I am over 60 years old and can still act the adolescent. So I applied for a replay on that. I sent out my apologies into the Sky. One does not have to UNDERSTAND one's dreams. One only has to act appropriately.