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First off the method the guy talks about in getting to lucid dreams every night makes sense. Im gonna try it for sure. He says basically being good made everything boring. I didnt understand if this boredom extended into the waking life or not though, he says it doesnt at the end..... but then he acts like it does in the middle part. Heres the article:
http://www.jrmooneyham.com/playg.html
Yeah, some people are weird. A lot like Leo Volont, a former member of this forum (he got banned a while back, before you joined. Trust me, it's a good thing he's gone).
Anyway, Leo insisted that pursuing Lucid Dreaming was pointless and even harmful on a few occasions.
Really, I think its just that they have no imagination, and lack the capacity to keep themselves amused.
And when you do run out of things, you can try and see if there are any astral planes you can visit. But it would be hard to run out of things...
I heard from a few people who're very good at LDing that it gets boring. You don't know what else to do, you've tried everything possible and understood that lucid dreams are, just like normal dreams, nothing but an illusion.
Two reasons why you should never listen to anyone who's told you either of the above statements^Quote:
Originally Posted by Follower
1) If you don't know what to do, in a realm where anything is possible, you are too boring to ever get enough out of the experience to give anyone advice on it. That's like someone who spends all their time living in a box trying to say that "Life," objectively, "is boring."
2) Anyone who tells you they've tried everything possible needs to......just shut up, and not speak again, actually....
......Ever. :|
Lol.
Either these folks were not truly lucid or exhibit a lack of imagination. I can't imagine lucid dreaming as ever being boring. Also it is not what you do always in a lucid dream that makes them so very interesting. It is the knowledge and understanding, the very revelations of self that can be so totally enriching and valuable in our self development. Dreams in themselves are incredibly valuable and brutally honest about the self. I would recommend to look at the underlying elements of a dream to gain the full value and experience of these incredibly revealing phenomena.Quote:
Originally Posted by Follower
What is an illusion? Watching a TV show could be considered as the same, nothing but fantasy.
If they feel that dreams are the same as lucid dreams then they have not truly experienced full blown lucidity. No wonder they are so adept at it. They don't truly realize the difference...and there is a huge difference!
Ya I'd think godhood would be an endless oppurtunity of creativity, after all thats what creativity is for, it's also nearly unlimited.
oh and the method mentioned in the article is definatly VILD.
yea i totally agree!
i could L/D from 8 to about 18 in total control
i'm my now 28 and have lost the ability, gutted!
point is, i would do anthing to get it back!
you never get bored, just more creative!
what a weirdo. if you are in ultimate power and were bored you are weird. and lets say that it did get boring cause nothings a challenge, if you are in ultimate power create a challenge big enough! lol you are in ultimate control so you create a big enough one.
this guy is weird. :?
What a nut, and talk about totally over analyzing everything, thinking to much and coming up with weird ideas. I don't know if he understands not everyone thinks like he does in his delusional ways, I would say this guy would be quite weird in RL lol. As a some saying goes not the situation that is boring it is him. I don't think he had 100% control all the time, and he undeniably wouldn't have tried everything, even if he used his LD to enhanced some skills to better his everyday life??? Pfft maybe he was not that creative and couldn't look outside the square when it cames to somethings. He should stop looking at the negative side of things and just have fun. :content:
No, the folks who told me that they were bored were not lacking imagination. And they weren't lying. They got bored with lucid dreaming, coz they understood that it was an illusion. It was like growing up for them. Can you still enjoy believing in Santa Clause?
yea either way, I wish I could LD every night,lol.
If you are a serious student of LD then you have plenty of support here on this forum. :mrgreen:Quote:
Originally Posted by Follower
Your Santa statement tells me quite a bit about you however. You are not a true lucid dreamer because if you were you would understand. This is sad because we humans all have the ability. If you want to think that Lucid dreaming is a fairy tale then that is your perogative but we are willing to help.
No one here is bashing you my friend. If you seek the truth then you will find it. I have experienced levels of dreaming that are simply astounding. It is not myth, it is not fairy tales.
It is self-enlightenment.
And yes I can still enjoy believing in the spirit that is Santa Clause.
Don't go away, please realize that there are people here that are willing to help you fulfill your goals...if your intentions are sincere and you understand the nature and the context of this phenomena. :mrgreen:
There's a huge difference, though.
I can enjoy the concept of Santa Claus, if I choose to let myself be a kid again.
More fitting analogies would be: Can you still enjoy blockbuster movies, knowing that they are works of fiction?
Can you enjoy virtual reality, knowing that you're only playing a game?
Answer: Hell yes. :cooler:
I agree with O.
If you can feel it, can see it, can enjoy it, then it's real enough to be worth every bit of time spent on it.
people should not waste time debating what someone enjoys. if they think its real- its real. Even in disregards to lucid dreaming, arguing with an 'insane' person is pointless because its all about what they perceive. if someone perceives something as reality, and they have faith in it, there's not a way you can get them to believe otherwise. which comes back to the definition of insane- which is impossible because thats all about what we see as insane, but the insane person thinks we're all insane, thus making us insane. blah blah blah this doesn't matter just stop arguing about everytihng and the world will be fine. ignore peoples' attemps to counter something that you see as important in your life. tbh: completely ignore anything you want if it makes you happy. ignorance is bliss. and so is tolerance. so that person should just tolerate that we get glee in our 'false' realities and learn to accept that we allways will.
siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh i've posted that so many times in so many places it seems pointless because there will always be people that disagree. and they should. its their right.
No, I don't need help. And no, I didn't say that I don't enjoy lucid dreaming myself, though I must admit that I don't enjoy it very much now. It was different when lucid dreams were rare and I looked forward to them. At the moment I don't even know what to do in a lucid dream, all the things that people usually do do not attract me. Doing them is lame, and this is a sad truth. 99% of people who turn to lucid dreaming do it for the same reason that others overplay computer games, overwatch TV, overuse sex or use drugs: they want to escape real life. They want to have all their time filled with something or with memories of something like thrilling dreams, so that they don't have to look back at their lives and realize how empty and meaningless they are... I'm not saying that everyone is like that, but in order to lucid dream frequently and well you have to put some effort into it. So if you can, if you really can, then you're escaping life. Effort requres time and much wish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don
Tell me sincerely now what's your goal, to have some fun that you'll never have in real life, to have a girl (or a boy) that you'll never have, to find yourself in some new place, to discover some virtual world? All of it is pathetic... It's just a chldish game, an illusion, an escape. I'm not trying to offend anyone, sorry that it might sound like an insult.
Right, me too. So what? It is still an illusion. Nothing is real out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don
Alucinor Architecton
That guy wasn't forcing his view on anyone, he just posted an article :) YOU read it, he didn't force you to :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Don
I don't believe that 99 % of folks enjoy LD to escape reality. LD enhances the waking mind and compliments it. And even if your opinion had any merit of truth (which I don't believe) then LD would be the healthiest escape of the ones that you mentioned. I have a great job, a beautiful family, good health etc. I am not trying to escape from anything. I realize that I want to be able to enjoy MORE of life and LD allows me to do just this. Lucid dreaming can also offer therapeutic values as well. What of the amputee or the patient with MD that would like the freedom to fly or walk. It would enhance their life even if in their mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Follower
Please don't mock people that enjoy all that the human mind has to offer.
If it seems pathetic to you then why waste your time here? I am curious to know your answer. :biggrin:
Also it would seem that you are describing that you chose lucid dreaming to escape reality. You don't seem to be a very happy person. I am sorry for you.
Also if that is all that you have to offer me in reply then I am finished talking with you. YOU are a bigger waste of my time and resources then I care to spend.
No offense taken by the way, and not trying to flame you. :biggrin:
I hope that you have a great and fruitful day!
Follower:
I strongly disagree with just about everything you've just said.
Wow. What a depressingly materialistic view on life you have.Quote:
99% of people who turn to lucid dreaming do it for the same reason that others overplay computer games, overwatch TV, overuse sex or use drugs: they want to escape real life. They want to have all their time filled with something or with memories of something like thrilling dreams, so that they don't have to look back at their lives and realize how empty and meaningless they are... I'm not saying that everyone is like that, but in order to lucid dream frequently and well you have to put some effort into it. So if you can, if you really can, then you're escaping life.
[/b]
Another case of “Anything without substance – without a mark in the physical world – is hereby meaningless. It is an illusion. It is fake, and anyone who enjoys it is simply reveling in fantasy – a feeble attempt to escape the pressures of ‘real life.”
That’s so sad.
I’m not sure if anyone told you this or not but conscious experience, whether awake or otherwise, is “Real Life.” There is a difference between believing in a fake phenomenon and enjoying a phenomenal experience that you know is fake (even though dreams aren’t “fake” but I’m working with you, here).
What goes on in your mind is a part of You and it is no more logical, intelligent or commendable to pretend “it doesn’t matter because it’s fake,” than it is for NASA to obliterate the space program because people believe it displays a “pathetic strive to escape the hardships of living on earth, as humans were meant to.”
But of course, it doesn’t take much for someone to come along and make that sort of argument about the space program, using the same sort of broken logic you’re using now.
Why do people take up sports? Why do people learn martial arts? Why do people skydive? Race? Freestyle BMX?
Why do people explore the depths of the ocean? Space? Their own minds?
They each have their own reasons. But even if it were for nothing more than a little excitement every now end then, who is someone like you to say that their means of seeking adventure is pathetic and that they are only doing so because their “regular,” daily lives are so meaningless, and they want to tuck-tail and escape?
Well, as an artist who draws most of his inspiration from dreams, fiction, etc. it’s hard for me not to take offence to something like that. Your view of “real life” as a cold, material world with no place for fantasy, imagination or enjoyment of a periodic, conscious retreat into the realm of infinite possibility that is your own “God-given” dreaming mind makes me wonder how old your kids are going to be when you demand that they “stop daydreaming and think of nothing but a materialist’s education” and “leave all the dream adventures and fantasies to those pathetic people with no hold on reality.”Quote:
Tell me sincerely now what's your goal, to have some fun that you'll never have in real life, to have a girl (or a boy) that you'll never have, to find yourself in some new place, to discover some virtual world? All of it is pathetic... It's just a chldish game, an illusion, an escape.
[/b]
Studying (and even training) for something like lucid dreaming is one thing. Devoting one’s life to locking themselves away into the dream world and never seeing the “real” (note the quotations) world is another. I’ve gone from knowing of No One else that could lucid dream, when I was a kid, to being around this place long enough to know that not even 99% of the people on this forum LD simply because “Reality sucks and I want to get out” (let alone 99% of the people, worldwide, that LD).
Of course you don’t know what to do. Your perversion of “what is real and what isn’t” has instilled you with far too much pride to enjoy something that you can’t classify as “real” simply because it’s gone when you wake up. If you took that self-defeating shackle off of yourself you’d find that there was not only well-deserved, “childish” adventure to be had but, also, a lot of scientific merit to being able to consciously experience a world created entirely by your mind.Quote:
At the moment I don't even know what to do in a lucid dream, all the things that people usually do do not attract me. Doing them is lame, and this is a sad truth.
[/b]
famous quote: "Your mind controls your reality"
Don’t take offence, I did warn that my views might seem offensive. I wasn’t mocking anyone.Quote:
Please don't mock people that enjoy all that the human mind has to offer.[/b]
I’m searching for something. You might know, judging by your nick, that lucid dreams get used in different teachings, seemingly for useful purposes. Dream yoga for instance aims to use them as additional means to obliterate a so-called dualistic vision of our mind. It’s a useful psychological transformation despite how weirdly it is called. Maybe there are other things.Quote:
If it seems pathetic to you then why waste your time here? I am curious to know your answer. [/b]
Originally I turned to it for other purposes. And I was thrilled with lucid dreaming anyway. But when I discarded those purposes and tried to treat lucid dreaming as a game in a virtual reality it turned out to be a disappointment. The thrill went away coz I actually saw that everything around is ruled by me and that I’d be better off writing a book or creating a game if I want to exercise my imagination. That would take the same effort but would be of SOME use.Quote:
Also it would seem that you are describing that you chose lucid dreaming to escape reality. [/b]
And, doesn’t lucid dreaming make you feel lonely? You’re all alone there, surrounded only by creations of your own mind. You cannot share that “virtual reality” with someone else, you can only retell your experience to someone, but you can never ever truly share. It’s like a movie that you can only watch alone and can never retell in a right way. It’s always sliding through your fingers.
You should have said it in the very beginning of your post, then I wouldn’t waste time replying to you :)Quote:
YOU are a bigger waste of my time and resources then I care to spend. [/b]
Oneironaut:
My view is by far not materialistic, you can see that now from my answers to Don Juan :)Quote:
Wow. What a depressingly materialistic view on life you have. [/b]
Psychiatrists would be interested in your opinion, maybe you could dissuade them from giving medication to mentally ill people who have a right for their “real life”. Some hear voices or hallucinate and they’re still conscious. And dreams are, of course, unreal, it cannot be proved otherwise until someone reaches this reality through dreams somehow :). That’s why your comparison with a space program doesn’t work, there is nothing unreal about space and other planets.Quote:
I’m not sure if anyone told you this or not but conscious experience, whether awake or otherwise, is “Real Life.” [/b]
Most people who are good at lucid dreaming have to devote a big part of their lives to it, coz they do not have a natural talent. And who has it? So their lives do suffer. We aren’t talking of one minute lucid dreams once a month, of course. And I’m sure that most people who hang around such forums take lucid dreaming as a hobby, never giving it enough attention, and it’s good.Quote:
Studying (and even training) for something like lucid dreaming is one thing. Devoting one’s life to locking themselves away into the dream world and never seeing the “real” (note the quotations) world is another. [/b]
Pride? Goodness. Dreams can’t be classified as real, ask someone who you can trust, a scientist or a doctor. I did enjoy many things a while ago, take talking to DCs, it was like having a new toy. Later I understood that they’re parts of my own mind, nothing but robots and they would always say what I unconsciously desired. Lucid dreams can put you in an adventure and be thrilling, but computer games can do the same for you, and they’re easier to get.Quote:
Your perversion of “what is real and what isn’t” has instilled you with far too much pride to enjoy something that you can’t classify as “real” simply because it’s gone when you wake up. [/b]
For reasons that are hard for me to understand I like lucid dreaming too much, so now I’d like to find in it something real, something useful, some purpose, something to benefit from. For myself and others.
My take on the article was that the author was hellishly bored with LDing because everything became oh so predictable.
after reading this coloum it's obvious that some people who think the've experienced lucid dreaming HAVN'T. all the bullshit about becoming bored and over analysing the subject.
when i was in total control i just looked apon it as a gift and injoyed myself, simple as that!
get real.
Sorry. Kinda long. Was typing while working and didn't have much time to consolidate my thoughts. :sweat1:
You’re misunderstanding what I mean.Quote:
Psychiatrists would be interested in your opinion, maybe you could dissuade them from giving medication to mentally ill people who have a right for their “real life”. Some hear voices or hallucinate and they’re still conscious. And dreams are, of course, unreal, it cannot be proved otherwise until someone reaches this reality through dreams somehow (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smiley.gif). That’s why your comparison with a space program doesn’t work, there is nothing unreal about space and other planets. [/b]
The experience (not the content) is, subjectively, real.
Many would argue that emotions aren't "real," because they simply take place in the mind (and are, arguably, unnecessary), but if someone's "illusory" emotion of Hate can cause him to reach out and stab the person in front of him with an icepick, how can you deny his hate was real?
Dreaming of doing something that is impossible in waking life has every bit as much “use” as thrill-seeking for entertainment, in waking life – which, in your eyes, may be none at all. I don’t know. The “use,” to me, is subjective. It is what you make of it. The ability to have immersive sensory experiences that you can’t have in waking life, provided by your own mind, is one hell of an adventure. The reality is in the experience, the feeling, not in the environment.
To carry such an insulting view on people that explore it for that reason, I think, is a little egocentric – no offence meant.
In lucid dreaming of battling a million-man army, alone, you know that the army is not “really” there, however, if your dreams are usually as vivid as mine are, you know that a swipe from one of their swords can feel a lot like waking life. I’ve been LDing (on and off) since I was a kid and, knowing that the content is a dream, have never found myself unable to embrace the scenario. When it comes to entertainment, I guess it takes a certain frame of mind to suspend the “Oh it doesn’t matter, it’s all a dream” logic and simply enjoy the dream content, as if it were real, despite knowing it’s only a dream. Maybe that’s what you’re lacking, which is understandable, and would explain your inability to think of something you’ll enjoy doing, while LDing.
But then again, most of my non-lucids are off-the-wall and adventurous anyway so, when realizing I’m dreaming, I usually don’t have to try too hard to come up with anything fun to do. Heh.
As far as mental patients:
The difference is that LDers are aware that what they are experiencing is in their head, as it’s happening. It is not something that threatens to hinder or endanger their waking world reality.
You know, in all honesty, I’d dissuade anyone from giving medication to someone that 1) has no discomfort with their hallucinations and 2) isn’t a danger to themselves or anyone else. If they are walking around seeing smiley faces in the flowers and hearing “It’s a small world,” knowing that what they are experiencing is simply a hallucination and would not cause them do something irrational, would you push medication on them?
I’d love to know where you picked that statistic up. And how good are you talking about? There is a huge gap between “one minute lucid dreams, once a month” and someone you apparently feel is “good at lucid dreaming” because I consider myself pretty good, and I don’t consider that I’ve devoted a big part of my life to it.Quote:
Most people who are good at lucid dreaming have to devote a big part of their lives to it, coz they do not have a natural talent. And who has it? So their lives do suffer. We aren’t talking of one minute lucid dreams once a month, of course. [/b]
I see what you mean, and I agree that it’s not good to let even the pursuit of LDing consume your life, but I still think you have the wrong idea about people who LD only for adventure (and I’m not speaking as someone who does it only for the adventure, but it is a large part of my motivation, I openly admit).Quote:
And I’m sure that most people who hang around such forums take lucid dreaming as a hobby, never giving it enough attention, and it’s good.[/b]
You can compare the immersion of a PC game to the immersion of a vivid dream? Please tell me where you’re getting these supergames from, because I’ve never seen anything that even comes close. Videogames (not to mention entertainment of All media) are trying their hardest, generation after generation, to become more realistic. Making the claim you just did, you imply that there is now open-ended virtual reality technology so real, that the evolution of the videogame industry will now come to a stand-still.Quote:
I did enjoy many things a while ago, take talking to DCs, it was like having a new toy. Later I understood that they’re parts of my own mind, nothing but robots and they would always say what I unconsciously desired. Lucid dreams can put you in an adventure and be thrilling, but computer games can do the same for you, and they’re easier to get.[/b]
I’ve talked to DC’s and got completely unpredictable reactions. One DC, for instance, will tell me, when asked, “No, you’re not dreaming” while another one will look at him like an idiot and “Wtf? Yes, you’re dreaming, don’t listen to him.” Realistic, dynamic, dialogue (common, for me, in LDs) is something else that videogames are not able to produce, convincingly.
Nothing wrong with that. You have your reasons for seeking the things that you do (which are reasonable) but maybe you shouldn't take such a belittling view on those who don’t use the medium for your same purposes, especially when it’s something that you used to enjoy, yourself, and convinced yourself is not worth merit. I agree that LDing can be lonely, if you let it. If you choose to perceive it that way. I treat many of my DC’s as if they were my waking life friends, often, when I’m LDing, and their reactions are usually enough to keep me from being lonely while dreaming. Sure, it sucks that my real friends can’t be there with me, or I can only retell the story after waking up, but I’m sure many people that trot around the globe don’t feel so discouraged by loneliness that it keeps them from wanting to see and experience whatever they can. They accept it, and are able to enjoy it because of that acceptance.Quote:
For reasons that are hard for me to understand I like lucid dreaming too much, so now I’d like to find in it something real, something useful, some purpose, something to benefit from. For myself and others.[/b]
I personally found Leo Volont a very interesting character, but I didn't get some of the things he talked aboutQuote:
Leo Volont, a former member of this forum (he got banned a while back, before you joined. Trust me, it's a good thing he's gone). [/b]
Oneironaut:
There are a lot of mentally ill people who know that they’re hallucinating and whose sickness doesn’t force them cause harm to others. But they do get medication. I knew one who didn’t want to, he experienced awful things (not only hallucinations), but didn’t want to get cured. He is such an unhappy person, always on the verge of suicide, he can forget a chunk of yesterday and wake up suddenly in an unfamiliar place. That’s a horrible life.Quote:
If they are walking around seeing smiley faces in the flowers and hearing “It’s a small world,” knowing that what they are experiencing is simply a hallucination and would not cause them do something irrational, would you push medication on them?[/b]
I think that you make a mistake thinking that one can hallucinate being aware of it and that there will be nothing happening besides hallucinations. There’s so much more that comes with them. And people who experience them can often be completely sane and conscious while experiencing them.
Maybe you have a talent, and you didn’t have to devote a big part of your life to it.Quote:
There is a huge gap between “one minute lucid dreams, once a month” and someone you apparently feel is “good at lucid dreaming” because I consider myself pretty good, and I don’t consider that I’ve devoted a big part of my life to it.[/b]
“Good” for me means being able to lucid dream every night, or whenever you want, for decent amount of time. Is it naturally possible? I think that it can only be learnt, otherwise lucid dreaming would have been widespead and well-known centuries ago. You couldn’t ignore something if it was so naturally noticeable .
I’m judging by what I see at the forums, and that is that people LD in order to get thrilled and play in a virtual world. That could be a wrong impression, but let someone speak up then and state what other purposes they LD for. I’d be glad to hear such statements, since I’m searching for a worthy purpose myself.Quote:
I still think you have the wrong idea about people who LD only for adventure (and I’m not speaking as someone who does it only for the adventure, but it is a large part of my motivation, I openly admit).[/b]
You’re speaking only of realistic environment, but it isn’t what gets you immersed. People get addicted to games like Lineage 2 and become unable to leave their computer for long. I got addicted to a single-player game once and couldn’t stop playing it for two days (didn’t even sleep) until it was finished. There was another game in my life, have you heard of esports? Some maniacs spend hours per day playing just one game, duelling, team deathmatching, etc, and believe me that can be much more thrilling than lucid dreaming. To this day, I must say that nothing can be compared to the times when I played that game every day. Nothing.Quote:
Please tell me where you’re getting these supergames from, because I’ve never seen anything that even comes close.[/b]
But that depends on a person.
Well, I saw one game that could :), but it’s not the point. I understand that you get different reactions from DCs in LDs, often unexpected, but in truth it is you speaking to yourself. It only means that you wanted to see that very reaction or a group of reactions, subconsciously.Quote:
Realistic, dynamic, dialogue (common, for me, in LDs) is something else that videogames are not able to produce, convincingly.[/b]
I don’t think that it’s possible to feel loneliness while lucid dreaming. We’re not very much like ourselves in lucid dreams. But upon waking, when you know that you cannot share…Quote:
I treat many of my DC’s as if they were my waking life friends, often, when I’m LDing, and their reactions are usually enough to keep me from being lonely while dreaming.[/b]
This I’m not arguing. It is a matter of what you want. People get drugged to get psychodelic visions and they enjoy them. There’s much in our lives that is only subjectively real. I want something objectively real, and if there is none then an objectively real (useful) purpose.Quote:
The experience (not the content) is, subjectively, real.[/b]
It’s just that, this reality and this environment is good enough. Why create a fake one to enjoy it when you can enjoy right here and now?:) Why talk to DCs when you can talk to real people and enjoy it?:) Why read a forum in a LD when you can read it in real life?:) Usually it’s only crap in dreamt forums that could be interesting to glance at, but it is nothing that can be compared to quiet joy that you feel upon associating with another human being.
It is a matter of viewpoint.
Just a random thing about when follower said:
I know what these people meant. This same thing happened to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Follower
Let me elaborate:
I spent days of my life doing the WILD technique, using this method I learned to instantly enter the dreamstate whenever I felt like it.
Hearing this you might say "OmGzorz! he sO FLy!!!", in reality, I wasn't very "fly" at all.
You see, as I kept getting more and more LDs under my belt I became accustomed to the feeling of being "lucid", so used to it in fact, that my day-to-day conscious behavior began to become more and more dreamlike. It was like I was always half asleep, both in my dreams, and out of them.
I never even saw this happening, I just slowly began to notice a couple things:
a) people didn't like me very much/ I couldn't talk to people very well. (in real life)
b) My LDs became more and more "imaginary" (like a daydream pretty much, there was nothing I could do to stop this from happening either...)
and
c) My lucids began to just be all around very crappy
I was never truly awake in my dreams anymore, it was like in both real life and my dreamlife I couldn't concentrate on anything. As I'm sure you've guessed, this sucked serious balls.
Anyway the gist of what I had to do to fix that problem was simple, I just quit LDing for a few months :(
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++
So yeah, I think thats what happens to everyone when they let lucid dreaming take control of their lives. Its like a drug, how often you use it determines how good it is.
This is what I was going to say to the above: So what? You get older, you give up the partying, you get busy; and lucid dreams have no side effects, take no time out of your busy schedule, don't kill brain cells or cause muscular atrophy, and can maybe even improve your skills or give you some insight into your subconscious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Follower
Then I read BillyBob's post! Say it isn't so! Is this what I have to look forward to? I so wanted to have control (like you, Oneironaut) and to do all those things I imagined when I first read about LD, but if it leads to not being able to tell fantasy from reality, that may not be good.
Maybe it is just WILDing, and I suck at that, so I'll probably be OK...
(But Follower: I understand what you are saying; but I think that is because maybe some people, maybe like me, will not get to the level at which some of the really talented people do; and in that case, LD may eventually seem boring. And I do want to use LD for a higher purpose eventually; to improve myself, for example public speaking, off the top of my head. I am going to keep trying; I have hope.)
P.S. A possible solution: don't spend too much of your waking life thinking about your dreaming life. Let it come, if it is going to, if not; well, you get to fly a few times! And I haven't gotten bored with that yet.
I apoligize beforehand for the length of this post.
Please quote in context, Follower. The sentence directly before your quote of Oneironaut ends with: "2) isn’t a danger to themselves or anyone else." I would say always being on the verge of suicide is a danger to themself. But that's just me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Follower
First, to go lucid every night or at will is near mastery of lucid dreaming, in my opinion. It would take years or at least an extended period of intensive training to accomplish this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Follower
And about being naturally possible. One becomes lucid when one realizes one is dreaming. That's it. Not that they have complete control or even have any control whatsoever just that they realize they are dreaming. Does this really sound so far fetched as to be unnatural?
Oh, and to clarify, lucid dreaming has been known for centuries, so just because it wasn't widespread or well-known, especially to you, doesn't mean it wasn't around or known about.
This is where you reveal your true bias Follower. You read into what you've seen in the forums "that people LD in order to get thrilled and play in a virtual world." as exactly what you were looking for. To be clear, to me that means that what you see is a result of you only reading topics that seemed interesting and thrilling to you and only seeing posts that pertained to people playing in a virtual world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Follower
For me, LDing is just another tool, and a very powerful one at that, of learning self-control. That is, to be in control of myself, my actions and my thoughts and not fall into the delusion that I have control over my surroundings (even though in my LD's I do). That is what I see as the ultimate challenge in LD's, namely, even though I am in a world entirely of my own creation, I try to never delude myself that I am in control of anything besides myself. (With my exploration into buddhist philosophy, LDing is also a great tool to deconstruct the illusion of the self, but I digress)
To say that nothing in your experience can compare to you playing a video game and also having the opinion that, to quote one of your earlier posts about the downside of LD's, "You’re all alone there, surrounded only by creations of your own mind.", again, to me says that your so uncreative that you would rather be surrounded by creations of someone else's mind (the game creators) than your own. You seriously don't think your views are even a tiny bit materialistic? But, to be fair, you are entitled to your own opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Follower
You saw a game that had dialogue that was as realistic and dynamic as real life? Someone predicted your reactions well enough that you mistaked the game for reality? Truthfully? Well, to echo Oneironaut, please tell us what supergame this is because if I can get the experience of a lucid dream on my t.v. without any effort whatsoever, then by all means it would be an experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Follower
And it's really you speaking to your subconscious thoughts of how someone else would react. If you can't see the extremely subtle difference, then woe to you.
What kind of split personality do you have that you are not much like yourself in a lucid dream? I can only speak for myself, which is what you should do (with respect), that I am myself in a lucid dream albeit in a fantastic environment of my own making, by conscious or subconscious means.Quote:
Originally Posted by Follower
I would say most of our (human) experience is subjective. Even though the phenomena we observe is objective (if you have read any quantum mechanics, even this notion comes under attack) we humans put such a subjective spin on said phenomena that only truly, forgive the pun, lucid individuals realize the difference between our subjective and objective views on our surrounding reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Follower
I couldn't agree more that this reality and environment is good enough, but lucid dreaming is just another tool to understand the awesome complexity and subtle simplicity of the universe surrounding us. A lucid dream is only as fake as the dream that we call life.
Follower, I truly mean no offense and really love the chance for both of us to express our opposing views on LD's in a common forum :hug: and again I apologize to all for the length.
Run out of things to do?? Haaa what a hoot.
I agree with you guys.
I would like to add that what he proposes would be similar to saying, your brain is now useless, you are done learning. Maybe he is bored with life. Moreover the fact that most people are so obsessed with DOING something in their dream. Why does everyone have to manipulate the dream scene? We have control of our actions in our waking life, do we manipulate and control everything during the coarse of a day? of course not. Granted in a dream, your forum to do this is uninhibited. However I would like to see more people use lucid dreaming as a learning skill. Take a look at what you subconscious has to tell you. Take in all of these abstract thoughts... on a conscious level. * That will always be ever changing as you grow, learn, live and experiance new things.
I think he has a good point. Being in ultimate control for too long without anything to challenge oneself, it will not be enjoyable for such a long time.
Personally I like having Lucid Dreams, especially going on rampage killing people. But I wouldn't want to have them too much. In my opinion, it is also enjoyable with normal dreams, as everything is less predictible due to not being in charge, and there is much more satisfaction when defeating one's fears and achieving goals in them.
He says he has complete control of his dreams which I think is impossible. He even mentions a dream he had where the police where after him and a friend. His friend went to park his car and he got out then he saw the cops coming around a corner so he rewound and stayed in the car instead of getting out. If you are a god like entity if you had COMPLETE control of your dreams the cops would have come around the corner in the first place because you would have to choice to make it happen.
I don't think anyone can have complete control of your dreams. I think you can have amazing powers and do what ever you want but, correct me if I'm wrong here, I don't think there is anyone out there that dreams where nothing is a surprise, where they control every aspect.
Gregash:
That’s why I wrote that. To disprove Oneironaut’s point that it is possible to be mentally ill and be safe.Quote:
I would say always being on the verge of suicide is a danger to themself.
You’re missing the point.:) I was talking about natural possibility of what you call “mastery of lucid dreaming”.Quote:
about being naturally possible. One becomes lucid when one realizes one is dreaming. That's it. Not that they have complete control or even have any control whatsoever just that they realize they are dreaming. Does this really sound so far fetched as to be unnatural?
It was never widespead, only known in closed communities.Quote:
Oh, and to clarify, lucid dreaming has been known for centuries, so just because it wasn't widespread or well-known, especially to you, doesn't mean it wasn't around or known about.
No, I don’t read such topics.Quote:
to me that means that what you see is a result of you only reading topics that seemed interesting and thrilling to you and only seeing posts that pertained to people playing in a virtual world.
Ok, I know where it came from. :) But you’ll have to search this forum thoroughly to find at least a couple of people discussing such things, especially discussing them seriously.Quote:
I try to never delude myself that I am in control of anything besides myself.
Anyway, if you agree with me on this, why are you arguing?:)
The game with which I said nothing can compare with was not a single-player game. Esports got mentioned, right?:) That means spending hours per day with other people, which are not creations of my mind.:) You’d have to get into such things yourself to understand that for a while it can be cooller than anything else, including sex :)Quote:
you would rather be surrounded by creations of someone else's mind (the game creators) than your own.
[quote]Someone predicted your reactions well enough that you mistaked the game for reality?[quote]
No, someone wrote such interesting and dynamic dialogues that they captured my attention for two days non-stop. That’s talent.
Why should I tell you what super game that was, if you didn’t understand the point about esports?:)
I think that you aren’t prone to games, so that game might never influence you like that.
Another example would be reading a very good book. Wouldn’t you get immersed completely into it? Sometimes you can get such vivid pictures that you stop hearing and seeing anything around. You forget where you are and who you are. That’s called talent, too.
But you have to be prone to reading books.
And what you’re talking about is only visual environment. As if there is nothing greater in life than high-quality pictures around. If that is so, then you don’t need lucid dreams. Look around and you’ll see reality captured with your eyes. It is of the highest quality, 3D, realism, all five sense present at once, your body, all the little details, billions of colors…
And so, it is still your own subconscious. Nothing new. Why would you want someone to behave like you want him to? I’d like people to behave in a new way, do something unexpected, argue with me, like you do.:) Only then some progress is possible.Quote:
it's really you speaking to your subconscious thoughts of how someone else would react.
Let me doubt that, unless you’re a super master of LDing. Earlier you called being able to LD every night “a mastery of lucid dreaming”, so I deduct that you can’t do it? Sorry if you can.Quote:
I am myself in a lucid dream albeit in a fantastic environment of my own making, by conscious or subconscious means.
You’re saying things like that and disagreeing with me? You delve into things like dream yoga and disagree? I can’t put two and two together. You argue on behalf of someone else?:)Quote:
A lucid dream is only as fake as the dream that we call life.
The same for me. And that would never happen in a LD, an opposing view that you could hear there would be just what you subconsciously desire to hear as an opposing view.:)Quote:
I truly mean no offense and really love the chance for both of us to express our opposing views on LD's
No idea why quoting didn't work. Sorry.
I too, completely agree with what the other posters have said, Follower. In fact, there's one thing I'm missing that strikes me, personally, as very relevant.
You said these people got bored because they realized their lucid dreams were an illusion. Now, it may be that others don't want to look at it this way, but to me, lucid dreams are just as much an illusion as waking life and waking life is just as much an illusion as dreams are. The main difference, besides the possibilities you have in both "illusions", is how long they last. A dream will last just over 30 minutes at the most, while one's real life experiences will add up to years (excepting those horribly unlucky).
Both dreams and waking life are either "realities" or "illusions", whichever you prefer. I must say I'd consider the former term more accurate, but they're just words, they're not that important.
The difference is that one is subjective, meaning it happens only in your mind, and the other is partly objective, meaning that, while your mind still conveniently models it for you, there are outside influences that affect the people around you as well.
They are, however, similar in that you experience both kinds of realities, and that dreams can (and the kind of dreams that we're talking about here definitly will) be just as convincing and real in anything you do as waking life.
The bottom line is that stating that dreams are only illusions strikes me as trying to say they're unimportant. That they, as experiences, don't add anything to anything. This may be true, but in that reasoning, the same goes for life. All in all, I guess the most compact explanation of what I've tried to say is in my signature.
Edit: Looks like I'm not missing this point anymore after finding out about the other two pages of this thread
Umbrella:
That's a good point, but I'm uneasy to let myself think like you do. This way it would be way too easy to stop discerning reality from dreams. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Umbrella
I've never seen it as a bad thing to make the lines between dreams and waking life fade at least a little. I'm not crazy. I know a decision I make in waking life is much more important than one that I make in my dreams, but only because a waking decision will affect you much longer.
In fact I often check my state not just by pinching my nose (which is my preferred method), but by forcing my self to look at my environment as if I were dreaming. This actually makes me more aware, rather make me doubt.
The premise of this part of the conversation was your mentioning hallucinations, and how (albeit sarcastically) maybe I could dissuade psychiatrists from giving medication to those who are mentally ill. “Mentally Ill” encompasses a lot – including, but not limited to, those who only experience hallucinations. When I said “IF they are walking around seeing smiley faces” etc. I did not imply that all patients who hallucinate only see smiley faces and positive things. You’d completely gone off subject when I was talking about the (subjectively) “Real Life” experience of having a dream, and you (somehow) related that to implying that I didn’t feel any mental patients needed to be medicated for their “real life” hallucinations.Quote:
There are a lot of mentally ill people who know that they’re hallucinating and whose sickness doesn’t force them cause harm to others. But they do get medication. I knew one who didn’t want to, he experienced awful things (not only hallucinations), but didn’t want to get cured. He is such an unhappy person, always on the verge of suicide, he can forget a chunk of yesterday and wake up suddenly in an unfamiliar place. That’s a horrible life.
I think that you make a mistake thinking that one can hallucinate being aware of it and that there will be nothing happening besides hallucinations. There’s so much more that comes with them. And people who experience them can often be completely sane and conscious while experiencing them.
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My reply was that ‘IF they only hallucinate positive content, are aware they are hallucinating and do not pose a problem to themselves or others, then No, they don’t need to be medicated.’ Not only does your analogy with the (alleged) man you know of not fit the criteria I’d mentioned (He had Horrible hallucinations, refusing medication and choosing to live with these horrible hallucinations) but to say that you’ve “disproved the claim that it’s possible to be mentally ill and safe” by posting one anecdote about a man with horrible hallucinations (that I’m assuming is true) is a logical fallacy, in itself.
I’m not sure I follow you on this one. We have a lot of “naturals” on this forum alone. By “learnt,” do you mean taught from some other source, or becoming lucid, naturally, and teaching yourself how to become more efficient in it. None of the skills we have, whether “natural” or not, were given to us at birth.Quote:
I think that it can only be learnt, otherwise lucid dreaming would have been widespead and well-known centuries ago. You couldn’t ignore something if it was so naturally noticeable .
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I can’t even imagine how good I would be at lucid dreaming if I’d kept up with my own exploration of it. 6-8 years old, I was “learning” how to fly. How to “let go” and defy what little I knew of waking world physics. How to manifest weapons. Is that what you mean by learnt? Or Naturally? Please clarify. This, I believe, is something that Everyone has the ability to do, but not always the right circumstance to uncover this ability at an early age.
You’d be surprised. I’ve read/heard many accounts from people (mainly the manically depressed/emo types) that allow that “it’s all in your head” logic to do just that: introduce them to the fact that everything around them is, ultimately, created by them and that they are, in fact, alone. This then, whether sincerely or not, causes them to dwell on that fact. Many of them do nothing to their DC’s but treat them as they are, figments of the imagination, and they become conditioned to the loneliness of being in their own head, by themselves. I think it’s this type of thinking that can cause the same boredom/disconnect that you’re feeling (though it is technically correct, so don't take that as an insult).Quote:
I don’t think that it’s possible to feel loneliness while lucid dreaming. We’re not very much like ourselves in lucid dreams. But upon waking, when you know that you cannot share…
[/b]
Again, your entire stance on lucid dreaming seems to be based on the assumption that people are only lucid dreaming to escape reality, as evident in the questions you’re asking.Quote:
It’s just that, this reality and this environment is good enough. Why create a fake one to enjoy it when you can enjoy right here and now? Why talk to DCs when you can talk to real people and enjoy it? Why read a forum in a LD when you can read it in real life? Usually it’s only crap in dreamt forums that could be interesting to glance at, but it is nothing that can be compared to quiet joy that you feel upon associating with another human being.[/b]
“Why create a fake reality to enjoy when you can enjoy it here and now?”
The dream reality was created subconsciously. I’m simply learning to take more advantage of things you simply can’t do in this “good enough reality,” which are possible in dreams, when I choose to. Confinement to two legs is “good enough” in waking life but, when you can fly around in your head while your body sleeps at night instead of still being confined to the ground and always living out a scripted dream, I'd rather live with the option. I’m sure the Wright Brothers would feel the same. And no, I don’t think they began flight for anything more than welcoming the experience of flight (other, more "useful" influences probably came later). Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t think so.
Again, I wonder about how limited your experiences are. I don’t know about you but, whether I’m lucid or not, my DC’s are often Completely unpredictable in their actions. Even if they do answer in ways I “subconsciously wanted” the whole concept of the subconscious is that it’s not consciously available, meaning that you probably aren’t sure how they are going to react, otherwise it would be what you consciously wanted.Quote:
And so, it is still your own subconscious. Nothing new. Why would you want someone to behave like you want him to? I’d like people to behave in a new way, do something unexpected, argue with me, like you do. Only then some progress is possible.[/b]
I’m (I will give you the benefit of doubt by saying “Almost”) always myself in lucid dreams. I’m interested to hear in what ways you are different from yourself, in waking life, besides maybe that you’d do a few things that you wouldn’t do in life, because you know you’re dreaming.Quote:
Let me doubt that, unless you’re a super master of LDing. Earlier you called being able to LD every night “a mastery of lucid dreaming”, so I deduct that you can’t do it? Sorry if you can.
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And this, Follower, might be the most revealing post of your whole argument. Before now, it was hard to understand why you’ve said some of the things you’ve said, but these two sentences speak volumes. :wink:Quote:
That's a good point, but I'm uneasy to let myself think like you do. This way it would be way too easy to stop discerning reality from dreams.[/b]
Ok, and I was trying to say that you don’t get a mentally ill person who is only seeing hallucinations and won’t suffer anything else. It is an ilssness, which means something is wrong with the brain. It also means that it will progress. You seem to think that illness can consist of just having visions, like watching a movie, and otherwise being absolutely sane and healthy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
By ‘natural’ I mean having an inborm ability to lucid dream at will. Learnt would be learning to do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
It is what dream yoga is mostly about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
But in truth there’s no unpredictibility. You can pretend to forget it, of course. That’s good to learn what you subconsciously desire and didn’t know about yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
You remember the day of the week, your name, all the data? You never forget anything that you wanted before falling asleep? You can pause and think? Don’t tell me that it is so (but if it is, you’re a master:)). Have you ever tried just to stand on the spot doing nothing, were you able to do it however long you want, absolutely still, without moving (nor your body nor any parts of your body, even your head)? If you can, then yeah you control yourself perfetly…Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
When we’re asleep the left brain works and the right one is hindered, so of course we’re in a different state of mind. Just pay attention to it. Some reactions are different, have you ever experienced an uncontrollable aggression or fright and caught yourself in the middle of feeling it? I can't believe it. Maybe you never paid attention.
Maybe it is news for you. But I thought that being able to discern reality and dreams is a sign of normality, are you hinting that it is not?:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
Follower you said that you can't find any use of ld-ing, becouse it is just a virtual reality where only you are, and it just a waste of time to learn it, as it's just a game (sorry if I misunderstood you)
But then, you told us about that game, what aspect of your life did it improve?
-the reflexes? do some martial arts, instead of sitting infront of the computer, and you'll get more then just badass reflexes
-socializing? I doubt you'll ever get a girlfriend, as it is rare for girls to play comupter games, and you could also go to parties
(and I know I didn't check the game, sry for that it's late here right now, and tomorrow I'll write an exam...)
So from this perspective there is no real point for playing games, unless for the mere fun of it (and we all know that's why we play games ^^)
As for dreams, if you are searching a use:
-overcoming fears, not only fobias, but if you are afraid of anything, like doing a salto, spiders...etc etc, and you can practice speaking also
-in dream everything might be fake, but you feel what you feel, wich means you can drive your anger down in dream, on some dc-s maybe...
-I read somewhere (I check where) that you can practice different skills in dreams, as your neurogial system will get used to those movements (skills like juggling, doing salto, everything physical maybe)
You also mentioned it's dumb becouse you are alone, you are the only one in the dream, so it's like playing cards with yourself, you know all the cards in all the hands, so what the point?
My anwser to this is a question (wich was put up a few times before me): do you REALLY know everything in a dream, every little bit, every little happening, even if it's your subconciusness, (so it's you), you can't predict everything, so you might learn something new about yourself, your real feelings, real intentions.
And sorry for any grammar mistakes, and such :roll:
P.S.: I think I'll change my signature....
Damn, another long one. I almost hate when I get to rambling...
...almost. :chuckle:
Follower, let’s try to stay on topic, here. :) First we’re talking about the mental imagery of dreams and how the experience (not the images) can be classified as real life experience (even though you misunderstood at first, but that’s ok) and then you ask me about doctors discontinuing their medication because of these “Real Life” images (in which, I could still see the point you were making). Now, though, you’re going from just talking about the related visualization, between dreaming and some mental illnesses, into connecting those visualizations to other neurological/psychological problems that stem from the progressive illness. Not only is that way off the subject, but my implications to anything other than the mental imagery aspect of our conversation is irrelevant because what I proposed about the “Smiley faces and Small World” was a hypothetical that had only to do with hallucinations.Quote:
Ok, and I was trying to say that you don’t get a mentally ill person who is only seeing hallucinations and won’t suffer anything else. It is an ilssness, which means something is wrong with the brain. It also means that it will progress. You seem to think that illness can consist of just having visions, like watching a movie, and otherwise being absolutely sane and healthy.[/b]
I’ve yet to speak about anything that I really think about mental illnesses besides the hypothetical of “IF they only hear/see positive things,” which is the only way I could connect your bringing mental illness into the conversation to anything we were talking about, concerning dreams.
I think your definition of “natural” lucid dreamer may be impossible. How does a baby know the difference between the waking world and the dream state? How do they know there is a difference? It would take knowledge of what dreams are as opposed to some knowledge about the objective world, and the cognitive ability to differentiate between the two, before someone can have a lucid dream. I don’t think this is information given to any of us, at birth.Quote:
By ‘natural’ I mean having an inborm ability to lucid dream at will. Learnt would be learning to do it.[/b]
Remember, dream content (from the scientific standpoint) is made up of a combination of past experiences. Conceivably there would be no "fantasy" for a baby to discern reality from fantasy, as all their dreams would probably be too realistic to tell them apart from the waking world.
Again, if you’re going to quote me, please do it in context.Quote:
It is what dream yoga is mostly about.[/b]
My very next sentence was: “This then, whether sincerely or not, causes them to dwell on that fact,” meaning that without a (seemingly) pathological attachment to the minimalist ideology of the “solitude” of dreaming, it is still possible to be aware that one is dreaming without consciously (or subconsciously?) attempting to find the predictables in every aspect of the dream.
Again, I disagree. Though many things that happen in my dreams are due to expectation, whether consciously or subconsciously, many of them deal with conceptual relationships that are so abstract and/or hidden so well, that they create completely unpredictable experiences/dialogue. Your mind is bombarded with subconscious influences for your dreams, everyday. Dream characters/content gains newer relationships and attachments to other dream content, daily.Quote:
But in truth there’s no unpredictibility. You can pretend to forget it, of course. That’s good to learn what you subconsciously desire and didn’t know about yourself.[/b]
To say that there is no unpredictability in dreams is to have a static mind where nothing changes – where DC X’s replay to your same question, asked in two different dreams to the same DC, is always going to yield the exact same response. This simply isn’t true – unless, of course, you’re the type that has solidified in your mind (for whatever reason) that everything in dreams is predictable. That same ideology that I mentioned in the response to the last quote can then cause you to start trying to predict everything that is going to happen, subconsciously, which could possibly cause your dreams to become more linear, predictable….boring.
So far, I don’t have too much trouble with remembering things that I try to, when lucid. No more trouble than I have remembering things when I’m awake, really (which may not be saying much, but you get my point :P ). This is how I (we) complete the tasks of the month, when we think about them. I’ve even decided not to do a task before because I remembered that it was the first day of the next month, and the previous month’s task was now over.Quote:
You remember the day of the week, your name, all the data? You never forget anything that you wanted before falling asleep? You can pause and think? Don’t tell me that it is so (but if it is, you’re a master:)). Have you ever tried just to stand on the spot doing nothing, were you able to do it however long you want, absolutely still, without moving (nor your body nor any parts of your body, even your head)? If you can, then yeah you control yourself perfetly…
When we’re asleep the left brain works and the right one is hindered, so of course we’re in a different state of mind. Just pay attention to it. Some reactions are different, have you ever experienced an uncontrollable aggression or fright and caught yourself in the middle of feeling it? I can't believe it. Maybe you never paid attention.[/b]
Granted, I’ve never had a situation where I was lucid and had to tell someone my name (because they already know, don’t they?) so my name doesn’t come up that often. When we are awake we can often have different reactions to like situations. When my dad died, I would find myself spiraling into an emotional negative that was completely uncommon for me. I would consciously catch on to how “unlike me” this was, and would be able to bring myself out of it.
Variations of “us” are still “us,” whether awake or dreaming. It’s very rare, since childhood, that I have dreams where I’m not in full control of my actions, whether lucid or not, so if your question is: Have I had any drastic changes, in lucid dreams, as in acting completely uncharacteristic of myself? Not very many that I can think of. I think I’m more “like myself” in dreams than I am on many mind-altering substances, and I’m usually very controlled on them.
Of course not. Normal, sure. But I think much of your argument is more a method to maintain your discernment between reality and dreams, rather than a picture of a logical perception of the perspectives of others who lucid dream – forging reinforcement of (what I believe are) misconceptions in an understandable reach for the normality you just spoke of.Quote:
Maybe it is news for you. But I thought that being able to discern reality and dreams is a sign of normality, are you hinting that it is not?(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smiley.gif)[/b]
But of course, it's all relative and you've had many experiences that I haven't, and vice versa, so I could be making an unfair assessment.
I just call 'em like I see 'em. :wink:
[Edit]
Oh, and as far as "running out of things to do in a lucid dream:"
I think that (besides the limiting idea of "the adventure is meaningless because it's all in your head) that this is due to a complete lack of creativity and/or preplanning. After taking a little waking world time to actually think about what you'd like to do in a lucid dream, you should have more than enough ammunition to keep yourself interested (hence the tasks of the month).
Without doing that, you're expecting to come up with everything cool to do, while you're actually dreaming, which is kind of like someone telling you you have an hour or so to teleport anywhere in the world and take home anything you want, for free, and expecting to not forget one thing you've always wanted.
My point was that any action you perform is the result of someone creating the ability to do so. Every single action and in truth the entire environment has been pre-fabricated by the game's creator. And while you can speak with others your only interaction is within an environment of no substance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Follower
You demonstrate my original point perfectly right here. The fact that you think interacting with a game (even if it is against real people over a network) is cooler than anything else, even sex, yet you seem to have a poor opinion of people who enjoy lucid dreaming. :huh:
That's like the pot calling the kettle black.
My understanding of dream yoga is that it is a method that utilizes one's dreams on the path to enlightenment. I don't see how that pertains to someone who would use their dreams to isolate themselves from the rest of reality (the kind of person I believe Oneironaut was describing).Quote:
Originally Posted by Follower
And while, yes, this is one of my most important reasons for exploring LDs, I don't see how this fact makes our two separate opinions agree with one another. Please, explain how it does. :D
First, I would like to address the whole mental illness thing, which deals with perception of reality and whatnot. One can have complications without needing treatment. Generally, it is not seen as a problem unless it involves abnormal behavior (which is defined in several different ways) which creates discomfort or danger. If one were to hallucinate, but know he is hallucinating, and it does not cause a problem, there may be no reason for this person to be treated, even in the perspective of the one that wishes to treat the individual. However, it is quite likely that it is causing a problem, so this individual would like receive treatment. There are people out there that have problems, even schizophrenia, and do not receive treatment. Unfortunately, I would say many of these people do not actually know they have a mental condition. Some do, but choose to manage the condition themselves.
Second, just because lucid dreaming is just that - a dream - does not change the fact that it is an experience. Yes, it is not technically a 'real' experience, but I inquire, what is real? This is not a biological concept. This concept, to me, is a philosophical concept, which is debated. A friend told me about a debate he had about reality, and someone asked him, "are you awake?" This suggests that only the physical world can be real; however, is not the physical world and the way we see it merely a perception? The values and cognitions we hold about this universe are not defined. Some people do in fact see the world differently than others. Just think, a color blind person, from birth, cannot define things based on the same colors because they cannot see them, nor would they know what these things look like. It is the same thing for a sense that is missing. Some people cannot even feel. So, I ask you, what is "real" to them?
Reality, or the perception thereof, is by no means an absolute. I am not a relativistic man, but in this case I would say that reality is subjective. Reality is simply that which we perceive, dream or not, at least as far as I can tell. That is not to say everything is corporeal and tangible. I would say that most would not want to see it this way. Let me tackle another concept that is not quite so philosophical and "out there".
What is an experience? This might be a lot of different things to a lot of different people. It might be simply knowledge gained from an event or situation. It might be anything, even day-to-day life. I think many of us would agree though, that experience is that which shapes us. Is it the physical world alone that shapes us though? Can you say that you took absolutely nothing away from any dream in your lifetime? If you say yes, I say you're a liar. Looking at it this way, dreams are true experiences in a virtual world. No, this world does not always make sense, but you can certainly take things from it. I have established quite a level of sensation in my lucid dreams, though I have not conquered it. I can feel, see, hear, and even to a degree taste. The experiences I hold might not be exact replicas of the physical world (though it has been said that the dream state can nearly mimic it perfectly in certain events), they are still experiences because each time I take information and store a memory of the event, I am gaining something that will shape me to some degree. When I see another world, I see it whether or not I can touch it in my waking life.
I must agree with Oneironaut, if one cannot use their lucid dreams in an interesting way that might even remain of interest, I would say that person is not being very creative. If the problem is being a god in your dreams, I challenge you not to be a god. After all, this should easily be one of those things you control. Yes, you might know that it is a dream, but that does not mean you have to control every aspect. I disagree that being a god is the only interesting thing one can do. Think outside the box please.
If you have trouble finding an interesting thing to experience, then look at other's ideas. You could even look at a fantasy book. You might read up on some historical events that you might want to experience. You might make your own story and try to play a part. Maybe, it will be old age, modern, or futuristic. Seriously, you have no limits yet you speak of such limitations. Sorry, but the "real world" cannot give you everything you could possibly want. You will not experience everything limiting yourself like this. One can look at lucid dreaming like reading a book. Are you bored of them too?
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
My point was that any action you perform is the result of someone creating the ability to do so. Every single action and in truth the entire environment has been pre-fabricated by the game's creator. And while you can speak with others your only interaction is within an environment of no substance.Quote:
The game with which I said nothing can compare with was not a single-player game. Esports got mentioned, right?smiley.gif That means spending hours per day with other people, which are not creations of my mind.smiley.gif You’d have to get into such things yourself to understand that for a while it can be cooller than anything else, including sex smiley.gif
[/b]
You demonstrate my original point perfectly right here. The fact that you think interacting with a game (even if it is against real people over a network) is cooler than anything else, even sex, yet you seem to have a poor opinion of people who enjoy lucid dreaming. huh.gif
That's like the pot calling the kettle black.
[/b][/quote]
Sry just wanted to point out, that he said, that for a while, wich could mean like half minute :roll:
the guy just sounds a little out of whack to me
A lucid dream is what you make it - end of story lol.
This is going to be long :) I wish it were possible to reply to people using each time a new post, just to make reading more comfortable, but unfortunately the forum adds every new post to a preceding one.
Qzole:
We live in different worlds?:) I know not a single girl who doesn’t play computer games. The most popular game among girls is GTA series, then go different 3dshooters. Forget these old views that your parents (?) imbued into you, you seem to think that girls choose girlish past-times. No clear division between male and female past-times exist nowadays. (In my country.)Quote:
-socializing? I doubt you'll ever get a girlfriend, as it is rare for girls to play comupter games, and you could also go to parties [/b]
As for socializing in general, most of friends and aquaintances I have now I met while playing that game. A lot of people. Not only people from my city, but from all over.
But gaming is only for youth, not forever. You have to spend too much time playing in order to progress or just not lose your skill. And you’re bound to lose your reflexes pretty soon anyway. And then, no game exists forever, it loses popularity. Well, I don’t play anymore.
LDing is not only for youth. And I can see how you deem it more useful after what you’ve said. Still our views are very different. It may be beneficial for you to practice public speaking in a dream, but it won’t be beneficial if you think ‘That’s not real, so there's nothing to be scared of’.
Oneironaut:
Of course, predictability isn’t happening in a dream. But you know about it. And if so, then why interact with fake people? If you don’t deliberately deceive yourself into thinking that it’s a real person, then it’s like talking to your own reflection in a mirror.Quote:
To say that there is no unpredictability in dreams is to have a static mind where nothing changes – where DC X’s replay to your same question, asked in two different dreams to the same DC, is always going to yield the exact same response.[/b]
In a LD you can do anything you want to DCs. Even if they demonstrate a seemingly unusual reaction it is possible to force them to do anything, even to disappear. Don’t you want a worthy person to talk to, instead of a slave!;)
This is easy, and that wasn’t what I was talking about. Try to consciously remember all your biographical data in a LD. Or write something down but don’t learn it by heart, and then try to say it in a LD. After you wake up you’ll be able to see that you’ve messed it up. Unless you’ve learnt it by heart.Quote:
This is how I (we) complete the tasks of the month, when we think about them. I’ve even decided not to do a task before because I remembered that it was the first day of the next month, and the previous month’s task was now over.[/b]
You can try to retell a book that you’ve read a couple of years ago. If you don’t remember it well enough, i.e. it’s not recently read or your favorite, you’ll mess it up. Whereas in reality you would be able to think clearly.
If you want to say that I mess reality and dreams, then no, it isn’t true.Quote:
I think much of your argument is more a method to maintain your discernment between reality and dreams, rather than a picture of a logical perception of the perspectives of others who lucid dream – forging reinforcement of (what I believe are) misconceptions in an understandable reach for the normality you just spoke of.[/b]
It happens only rarely and in a way that every LDer experienced, after waking up after a very realistic dream. Such a dream feels as real as reality while you’re dreaming it, and so you wake up and aren’t sure if this is a false awakening. Especially if there were a raw of them right before that :)
But it only happens if you’re being foolish, coz it’s easy to check what you remember and how clearly you can think to learn if you are still dreaming or not.
No, it is due to a lack of desire to have fake adventures :)Quote:
Oh, and as far as "running out of things to do in a lucid dream:" I think that (besides the limiting idea of "the adventure is meaningless because it's all in your head) that this is due to a complete lack of creativity and/or preplanning.[/b]
That’s it. A task of the month isn’t interesting for me. Or whatever else. I want to pursue some ‘higher’ goal rather than entertain myself. That’s all.Quote:
After taking a little waking world time to actually think about what you'd like to do in a lucid dream, you should have more than enough ammunition to keep yourself interested (hence the tasks of the month).[/b]
Gregash:
So people are blaming me for saying that they only seek a virtual reality in dreams? And yet you talk about what I’m talking about as only a virtual reality! That shows what people are seeking better than anything else.Quote:
My point was that any action you perform is the result of someone creating the ability to do so. Every single action and in truth the entire environment has been pre-fabricated by the game's creator. And while you can speak with others your only interaction is within an environment of no substance.[/b]
First, games are different. Not all of them are rigid. Esports is like chess, in this type of game you need to read your opponent’s thoughts non-stop, you have to guess how he thinks or what he knows about your thinking, it’s all about predicting each other and outsmarting each other.
But you’re speaking only of a virtual world and how realistic it looks! Ok, if that’s what you need, a virtual world of your own with realistic graphics, then surely LDs are your best bet. But that says much about what you seek, a fake environment to have adventures in, that looks so real that you can pretend that it is.
Sorry if that souded insulting, it wasn’t insulting, but people got angry at me before for stating this truth.
That shows that unfortunately you have no clue what type of gaming I’m talking about :) And you’re talking about 3d-environment reaslism anyway.Quote:
The fact that you think interacting with a game (even if it is against real people over a network) is cooler than anything else, even sex, yet you seem to have a poor opinion of people who enjoy lucid dreaming.[/b]
I don’t see how it makes them disagree. You use dream yoga’s ‘dream is an illusion’ method of LD exploration and yet you’re agreeing with others that it’s bad to think like that? The only logical expanation I can think of is that you use this method occasinally instead of all the time as it is meant to be used.Quote:
And while, yes, this is one of my most important reasons for exploring LDs, I don't see how this fact makes our two separate opinions agree with one another.[/b]
So, so far noone is interested in using dreams for other purposes but adventures in a virtual world? :( If someone is, please PM me, I can understand a lack of wish to talk about it in the topic. That would probably create more angry posts :)
What do you mean by "adventures in a virtual world"? I think that's part of the confusion here. I haven't played a video game in years, and I've never played one for days at a time. I have no notion of trying to turn my mind into a video game console.Quote:
So, so far noone is interested in using dreams for other purposes but adventures in a virtual world?[/b]
I am fascinated to explore LDing because it's another universe with different rules. You could say any LD is an adventure in a virtual world. Except for those who believe in shared dreaming, we will all agree that LDs exist in a virtual world. But, "virtual world" does not necessarily mean "video game-like world".
LDing does not have to take up much time in a person's life at all. I avoid WILDing and focus on DILD because I don't want to change my sleep schedule at all for the purpose of LDing. The only "drain" on my life from LDing is the occasional dream journal entry, and time spent here. And both of those are good for more than just ld'ing; I am seeing the world in new ways for all that I learn about LD'ing, which is much more than just the content of my LD's.
Chess players enjoy more than simply moving pieces on the board. Golfers enjoy more than pushing a little ball into a hole in the ground. LD'ers enjoy more than creating an imaginary world in their head.
Ok, we really do live in different worlds :P Here not many of the girls plays on the computer. I don't say that there is no one, but defenetly not too many...Quote:
Originally Posted by Follower
Sadly, yet I don't have personal experience in using ld-ing for something like that (only had like 1.5 ld), but many psychiatrist, use methods like hypnosis tothe patient to face his/her fears, (I also heard there are trying this with virtual reality), and even if you know it's not real, it does looks/feels like the real thingQuote:
Originally Posted by Follower
Ok, so here comes my joker card: Go to the beyond dreaming part of the forum (warning: you have to be open minded), there are many people who speaks about different uses of ld-ing, if you don't accept the ones I gave you (wich I understand, as I don't have 1st hand experience)Quote:
Originally Posted by Follower
Haha. My friend, “What we have here is a failure to communicate!” :lmao:Quote:
Of course, predictability isn’t happening in a dream. But you know about it. And if so, then why interact with fake people? If you don’t deliberately deceive yourself into thinking that it’s a real person, then it’s like talking to your own reflection in a mirror.
In a LD you can do anything you want to DCs. Even if they demonstrate a seemingly unusual reaction it is possible to force them to do anything, even to disappear. Don’t you want a worthy person to talk to, instead of a slave!;)[/b]
Of course I’d rather interact with a real person, but we are talking about dreams here, in case you’ve forgotten. It’s not like we can interact with real people, while we are sleeping, now can we? You are still going off of the presumption that most people enjoy lucid dreaming as a fantasized replacement for waking life. No matter how much evidence I give of how wrong that is, you choose to ignore it and continue on with the conversation with that assumption on your “tongue“.
But let me try this one last time, putting it to you simply, by turning your own logic against you:
Why do you like movies? Why do you like PC games? (assuming you like these things, because enjoying entertainment is normal for us humans) You know it’s all fake, don’t you? You know that the characters are actors on a set, reciting scripted lines, right? You know that video game chars aren’t real people, right? Why do you advocate reading books? Why do you advocate using imagination to write books? Fiction is just that, fiction. Wouldn’t you rather involve yourself in the affairs of real people instead of having to rely on made up characters, plots, gaming formats?
Why involve yourself with eSports? Don’t you think it’s kind of pathetic to settle for competing online when you can go out and participate in a real sport?
(Note: every question I just said asked was sarcastic so don’t take that as me insulting you. Just showing what your reasoning looks like from the outside. Didn’t seem a little ignorant to you? Your argument is the equivalent of saying all movies should be educational documentaries and that enjoying film, for entertainment, is pathetic.)
The reason movie-goers/gamers can enjoy the entertainment of fiction is not because they “deceive themselves into thinking it’s real” it is because, knowing they are there to be entertained, they don’t care. They are suspending the logical, hardcore “realist” in them that has the urge to stand up and scream at the movie screen “YOU PEOPLE AREN’T REAL! THIS STORY IS FAKE!!” and allowing themselves to enjoy the experience without dwelling on the obvious – that these are works of fiction. I still don’t get why that’s so hard for you to understand (aside from the implications that you simply choose not to.)
You can make a DC do anything you want, but you will probably enjoy yourself a lot more if you don’t. The concept is really not that technical.
Dude, I could hardly retell the beginning of the book I’m reading now, while I’m awake. :chuckle:Quote:
This is easy, and that wasn’t what I was talking about. Try to consciously remember all your biographical data in a LD. Or write something down but don’t learn it by heart, and then try to say it in a LD. After you wake up you’ll be able to see that you’ve messed it up. Unless you’ve learnt it by heart.
You can try to retell a book that you’ve read a couple of years ago. If you don’t remember it well enough, i.e. it’s not recently read or your favorite, you’ll mess it up. Whereas in reality you would be able to think clearly.[/b]
Seriously, though: Do you know how many factors can contribute to whether or not you (I) remember things you haven’t memorized “by heart?” Stress, Fatigue, Excitement, Anxiety, Apathy..the list goes on. The type of things you’re talking about having trouble remembering, while dreaming, can even be tough for some of us to pick up on the spot, under certain conditions, while awake. I fail to see your point. I’ve remembered more than enough waking world information, in, LDs to believe that remembering more is possible. Harder, maybe? But that proves….what?
And here we are, going around in circles again. That’s like saying “Man, I’m running out of things to do in my spare time” and someone else saying “Well there is a new Lord of the Rings coming out, let’s go see it” and you answering with “Hell no, I used to like those types movies but I now refuse to get involved in the fake adventures of some fictional character. It’s so pathetic…”Quote:
No, it is due to a lack of desire to have fake adventures[/b]
…and then you go home and sulk about how bored you are because you’re looking for something “more” and refuse to take advantage of anything else, until you find whatever it is you are looking for. You seem to be a stickler for the concept of a one-track mind (both in your perception of others and in your own philosophy) though there is room for duality in all of us and you shouldn’t be so quick to label everyone as either “this” or “that” or believe that “If I’m in the search for this” then “that (and everyone that does that) is beneath me, by all means.”
Again, nothing wrong with that, but perhaps you shouldn’t let your search for “ascension” cause you to develop such degrading perceptions (many of which, to me, don’t even make sense) on those who enjoy a little open-minded adventure and fantasy, especially when you enjoyed the same kind of entertainment, at one time.Quote:
I want to pursue some ‘higher’ goal rather than entertain myself. That’s all.[/b]
That’s all I’m saying, though I have a feeling it’s falling on deaf ears.
:cheers:
I know several people, including public speaking instructors, that suggest practicing in front of a mirror. I would think that is even less helpful, yet it has been said many times that it gives good results. Now, if one could literally make an audience, I think that would prepare them even more for the real thing.Quote:
Still our views are very different. It may be beneficial for you to practice public speaking in a dream, but it won’t be beneficial if you think ‘That’s not real, so there's nothing to be scared of’.[/b]
I admit many people desire to entertain themselves, but not all are like this. Some do explore lucid dreaming as an avenue of science, for example. I am actually one of these people. The reason I came to lucid dreaming was not to amuse myself, but find a method to achieve my hypothesis. I think that lucid dreaming will be my route to success on this. Unfortunately, I have limited control and few seem willing to carry out my experiment with me. The proof to this is two topics I made requesting experienced lucid dreamer's aid.Quote:
So, so far noone is interested in using dreams for other purposes but adventures in a virtual world? [/b]
There are others like me. Others aren't even in it for the science. I know my sister would like to do it for certain historical aspects. She wants better insight on certain events. In my opinion, this is a legitimate reason and not "just for the hell of it".
I guess we all have to look for our own reason, if entertainment isn't good enough.
As Oneironaut has indicated, we participate in many activities in addition to our waking existence. These activities are not real, yet we still enjoy them. For these fictional things - which may or may not include that which one does in their lucid dreams - we activate the supension of disbelief. This is how we get involved in something that is clearly unreal. It is a concept of theatre and literature. Lucid dreaming, in its adventurous sense, holds a similar value.
I understand where you are coming from, but don't throw it away just because it holds little meaning in the real world. Though, like I mentioned above, some are looking at other methods to use it that are a little more meaningful.
We immerse ourselves in virtual worlds for two reasons: to be entertained, and to understand our "real" world better. By virtual worlds, I am referring to many things: movies, stories, dreams, games, etc.
Entertainment is simple. We want to laugh. We want to smile. We want to cry. We want to be scared. We want to feel.
Understanding our world through fiction is deeper. Classic literature is enduring because people have written simple stories which capture fundamental human experiences. You could pick almost any good film, any good book, any good story, and we could discuss how it helps us understand, or at least think about, our "real" world differently.
Simply put, there is great value in immersing ourselves in certain "unreal" experiences, because it helps us understand our "real" experiences differently.
qzole:
Yes, I’m afraid of posting such things in Beyong Dreaming forum :), partly coz too many people there believe in things like telekinesis and other planes.Quote:
Ok, so here comes my joker card: Go to the beyond dreaming part of the forum (warning: you have to be open minded)[/b]
Oneironaut:
Not this time :) It is more clear now how this misunderstanding arose, but still not clear enough. I liked your post, it made me laugh a lot (in a good meaning of the word).Quote:
That’s all I’m saying, though I have a feeling it’s falling on deaf ears.[/b]
You’ll be surprised to know that I gave up watching movies years ago for that reason. :-) The actors were pretending! :-) But it isn’t as grave as it sounds, as it never impaired my ability to be immersed in books or games. That was a change of playground.Quote:
That’s like saying “Man, I’m running out of things to do in my spare time” and someone else saying “Well there is a new Lord of the Rings coming out, let’s go see it” and you answering with “Hell no, I used to like those types movies but I now refuse to get involved in the fake adventures of some fictional character. It’s so pathetic…”[/b]
The case is the opposite. :-) I’m overusing ‘unreal’ things like books, out of boredom. That’s what makes me sick of more unreal things.Quote:
…and then you go home and sulk about how bored you are because you’re looking for something “more” and refuse to take advantage of anything else, until you find whatever it is you are looking for. [/b]
Then what is ‘real’? Reality is always around, yet how do you reach it?
Honestly, I feel like something is missing. This whole argument arose out of something that I’ve been pursuing without knowing what it is. What could create such a need to reach itself? Can you make a guess? I can’t help myself, but maybe someone who has it can tell me what it is.
If that’s ‘reality’, then I fail to understand what is behind that word. Coz reality is all around, and something is still missing.
Koji:
Honestly, I think that looking at yourself is more impressive strategy than being looked at by others. You can read your own eyes too well, and fear that you have of public speaking you will see in your eyes. I think that that’s different than learning public speaking in a lucid dream, but not coz it’s realler . Modest people are afraid of their own modesty, facing it in a mirror is a frightening.Quote:
I know several people, including public speaking instructors, that suggest practicing in front of a mirror.[/b]
Ok, I got your point. Tell me what is the opposite of that, for a person fed up with unrealness?Quote:
As Oneironaut has indicated, we participate in many activities in addition to our waking existence. These activities are not real, yet we still enjoy them. For these fictional things - which may or may not include that which one does in their lucid dreams - we activate the supension of disbelief. This is how we get involved in something that is clearly unreal. It is a concept of theatre and literature.[/b]
JaphyR:
Still you can look at it the other way. Why do people seek to be entertained? Why do women like long tv series with lots of crying actresses and bad actors? What makes people want to cry over fictional things? Do they have a bad-things-deficit in their life?Quote:
We immerse ourselves in virtual worlds for two reasons: to be entertained, and to understand our "real" world better.[/b]
In such a view it can be said that people entertain themselves coz they’re bored by ‘plain life’, so they want to relive others’ lives, both with laughter and suffering, it feels more real in such case.
Another approach, understanding the world better, is closely linked with it. It might be a variation of it. That one was emotional, this one is mental, and they often combine.
Surely, there’s nothing bad in either. I’d like to find what is the opposite of these experiences, it’s as I wrote to Oneironaut, to understand what I’m searching for.
So when you don’t want to entertain yourself emotionally or mentally, what is there left to want?
By pointing out that games I don't play are virtual environments shows my intentions about LDs? I don't follow the logic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Follower
My only issue was with you seeming to put down others for LDing because it was a virtual world but also stating that your own experiences in a virtual world eclipsed anything outside of it, even sex. I've never denied the fact that LDs are virtual in the sense that they have no physical substance, but that does not mean the experiences are any less real to the person experiencing them. I guess it comes down to differing opinions on what is real.
No. First, my intentions happen to correspond with the goal of dream yoga. I only learned this after your first mention of dream yoga and my subsequent research into the subject. Second, to use the dreamworld as a door into one's inner thoughts and desires and to use those discoveries to further oneself along the path towards enlightenment is not, in my estimation, believing that 'dream is an illusion.'Quote:
Originally Posted by Follower
I think it would help if you clearly stated what you think dream yoga is all about instead of just quoting someone else and saying "hey, that's dream yoga." :)
What's left? Maybe only the most basic instincts: live, and spreadQuote:
Originally Posted by Follower
But 'spread'-ing doesn't involves much time, and if we have enough money, living is also assurued for some point. Maybe we could find ways to live longer, or how to conquer other planets to statisfy even more our basic instincts, but if we don't want to, then really what else remains for us to do?...
I have had similar feelings before, at least to some extent. I think there is too much expectation from this so called reality, however one may define it. Fact of the matter is, for the most part, this material world and the things we do in it are rather boring. Do not get me wrong, we can be excited or overjoyed, but not perpetually.Quote:
The case is the opposite. :-) I’m overusing ‘unreal’ things like books, out of boredom. That’s what makes me sick of more unreal things.
Then what is ‘real’? Reality is always around, yet how do you reach it?
Honestly, I feel like something is missing. This whole argument arose out of something that I’ve been pursuing without knowing what it is. What could create such a need to reach itself? Can you make a guess? I can’t help myself, but maybe someone who has it can tell me what it is.
If that’s ‘reality’, then I fail to understand what is behind that word. Coz reality is all around, and something is still missing.
[/b]
To me, there is nothing wrong with having both “real” and “unreal”, as long as it makes one happy. In the end, is that not the point – whether or not one is content?
I can understand not wanting to overburden yourself with illusions and unreal desires, but I ask you, isn’t fantasizing part of our existence too? You may simply be unable to tolerate it, and if that is the case I really don’t see what I can do to change your mind. If you can tolerate it but feel like it is meaningless, I suggest you simply stop caring. So what if it, in the long run, does not mean much? This does not mean you envelope your life in unreal thoughts or ambitions. One should certainly moderate these things.
You are trying too hard to find your answers. My guess is you probably can’t help it. It is likely the stage of life that you are in. If you don’t mind me asking, how old are you?
I think you will be aware of your fear whether you can “see” it or not. In my dreams, even lucid ones, I can feel emotions and what not. Now, if I try to create a realistic setting and audience and practice on them, I think I would fair much better than practicing on a mirror. I have done both. Audiences give reactions, your reflection will not. Now, that doesn’t mean DCs give you correct reactions, but it can allow you to deal with random reactions when they come.Quote:
Honestly, I think that looking at yourself is more impressive strategy than being looked at by others. You can read your own eyes too well, and fear that you have of public speaking you will see in your eyes. I think that that’s different than learning public speaking in a lucid dream, but not coz it’s realler . Modest people are afraid of their own modesty, facing it in a mirror is a frightening.[/b]
Furthermore, it allows you to practice scanning over an audience and “including” them in the speech. A mirror is just one’s reflection. Reflections can give fair results as you can see what you are doing wrong, but you can do that when speaking to an audience too. Not to mention, from what some people have said and even from my own experiences, one can likely do both at the same time in a dream.
From the way you speak, it almost seems like you are unable to suspend your disbelief anymore. That would be a terrible thing to lose in my opinion. If you cannot, then I suppose you are indeed stuck wondering about some shadowed higher meaning to everything. I do this myself, but I am not quite as grounded in it as you seem to be.Quote:
Ok, I got your point. Tell me what is the opposite of that, for a person fed up with unrealness?[/b]
If it is that bad for you, I think it is certainly something that you need to deal with. You make it seem like both “real” and “unreal” things are not enough for you. If that is the case, which exactly are you sick of? Reality is unlikely to offer you more than what you make for yourself. The fantasy component of reality shows no true merit in the physical world, yet gives you anything you could possibly want. Seems like quite a dilemma, in that whichever you choose would leave you wanting more. That is why I simply choose both, and just try to discard the problems with each of them. Yes, there is still an emptiness, but, in my opinion, there is no such feeling as wholeness.
Gregash:
My point about games and a virtual world was that it was not a virtual world for me, but more like playing chess on screen. I knew it wasn’t real and never pretended it to be. So I decided that if you insisted so much to look at it as at living in a virtual world, then you must be unable to view entertainment as anything different than that. :)
You see? That’s where our misunderstanding is. For me, games are not a virtual world, you cannot suddenly find your own body in a game. Though both often fall in the same category of entertainment. And both are ‘unreal’. That isn’t worth arguing about, though.Quote:
My only issue was with you seeming to put down others for LDing because it was a virtual world but also stating that your own experiences in a virtual world eclipsed anything outside of it, even sex.[/b]
It’s tough to jam it all into one sentence. Let’s leave out the goal of possible immortality. :) Then dream yoga would be about ceasing to be dualistic. That is, to divide our thoughts, desires, subconscious tendencies, judgements, from our ‘pure’ perception (and ideally, eliminate them). This is achieved in daily life by treating physical reality as an illusion and your own perceptions of it (thoughts, desires) as illusions. At night, by treating lucid dreams in the same way (and ideally, they are eliminated).Quote:
I think it would help if you clearly stated what you think dream yoga is all about instead of just quoting someone else and saying "hey, that's dream yoga."[/b]
That rang a bell for me. There has to be something real once you shred all your learnt thoughts and judgements of reality (and equally of unreality) and look around.
Qzole:
But noone is killing you, you don’t have to keep yourself alive. Spreading is more complex, but you can’t go around the world with a single goal of spreading yourself. That sounds like a theoretical model. :(Quote:
What's left? Maybe only the most basic instincts: live, and spread[/b]
Koji:
It is. But what if you’re overfantasizing? It’s not that I lost an ability to fantasize, but fantasizing makes me sick now. I can suspend disbelief, but it will make me morose later, coz of wasting time for something unreal instead of wasting it for something else.Quote:
I can understand not wanting to overburden yourself with illusions and unreal desires, but I ask you, isn’t fantasizing part of our existence too?[/b]
There must be some balance, it requires more ‘reality’. But you’re so right when you say that reality is awfully boring! Reality makes me sick, too.
So the question is, what can bring more reality into your life? And what would kill boredom that is so closely linked to it?
Over twenty, but not by very much.Quote:
You are trying too hard to find your answers. My guess is you probably can’t help it. It is likely the stage of life that you are in. If you don’t mind me asking, how old are you?[/b]
Of unreal things. But real things are boring… .Quote:
You make it seem like both “real” and “unreal” things are not enough for you. If that is the case, which exactly are you sick of?[/b]
And concerning higher meaning… . It might as well fall into unreal category. A higher meaning of life for a christian would be different from that of an atheist, there is no objectivity. Any of them, or both, could be fantasizing. To use a ‘higher goal for LDing’ words was misleading on my part, I meant a ‘real goal’ perhaps. A goal which is not a game you play with yourself, thinking ‘I do this for that. I pretend that it’s important!’, but a goal that would have significance. That would yield results.
Ok, to sum it up. There’s so much entertainment around that it is stifling. But if you look about searching for something else, you find only an old boring reality. And yet, entertainment is stifling and has to be put aside for a while. I can’t say why, but maybe you know that it is so. You have to put something completely aside to prevent it from obscuring your view and find something else, something that was there all along.
But I can’t find anything but reality which is boring! And who makes it boring? It’s too easy to answer that, and too hard to fix. Impossible perhaps.
Those conclusions may be wrong. The last sentence was ‘But I can’t find anything but reality which is boring!’, everything else was a bunch of assumptions that could be on a wrong track.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsen
Leo got banned...... O.O;; oh
Like I said, maybe you should just try to let go, and enjoy the ride. I know that can be hard but if you can find the balance that doesn't make you feel depressed about the whole issue it might help. I am sure that balance is out there somewhere.Quote:
It is. But what if you’re overfantasizing? It’s not that I lost an ability to fantasize, but fantasizing makes me sick now. I can suspend disbelief, but it will make me morose later, coz of wasting time for something unreal instead of wasting it for something else.[/b]
I have asked this question many times as I quest for content. I have found that I feel more content when I am around people, whether it be extended family or friends. Problem is, I am also very introverted. I don't quite jump into relationships. I am working on this though. A study I read showed that those that are extroverted are generally happier. Perhaps the very thing we are looking for is something we can't do alone.Quote:
So the question is, what can bring more reality into your life? And what would kill boredom that is so closely linked to it?[/b]
If you ever find the real answer though, tell me. O_O
I thought as much. I think we are roughly in the same stage of life. We are not only looking for who we are, or perhaps who we want to be, but we are also trying to find answers to these questions that give us some sort of worth behind our motivations. I abstained from gaming a while back under similar motivations as yourself. I came to a realization that, I have fun gaming (at least sometimes). I decided that, for right now, I am not going to focus on that which I do not have but rather that which I enjoy. I guess you could see it as making a situation comfortable, or as much so as possible. I have been a bit depressed for a while, and I am trying to overcome that.Quote:
Over twenty, but not by very much.[/b]
That's not to say that we should sit in a corner and ignore the world. I am merely saying, do what makes you feel good. If overfantisizing doesn't make you feel good, than I am inclined to agree with you. If it makes you feel good but it also makes you feel quilty afterwards about the time wasted, then stop worrying about time because, I hate to say it, you'd probably waste it anyway. I know I would LOL.
I disagree. You have to separate them perhaps, but not put one aside. Instead, put them side-by-side. Look at them both objectively and decide what to do from there. If you see that, at a given moment, there is nothing you can benefit from either, than either activity would be fine to pursue. I would say you need to look at them as equivalent. Do whichever feels right at a given time. I don't know if there is something "beyond" reality to explore. I kind of lump it all into the same thing. Instead of looking at fantasy and reality as black and white, I tend to look at it as gray.Quote:
Ok, to sum it up. There’s so much entertainment around that it is stifling. But if you look about searching for something else, you find only an old boring reality. And yet, entertainment is stifling and has to be put aside for a while. I can’t say why, but maybe you know that it is so. You have to put something completely aside to prevent it from obscuring your view and find something else, something that was there all along.[/b]
I guess what I am saying is, as you might be wasting time with fantasy, you are also wasting time looking for something more. I guess it all boils down to which one you want to waste more time with. I doubt there is something that will make the feeling disappear. I think that when you grow up a bit more, and can look over a long time of accomplishments and relationships, you might feel that it was worth something. In the present, you, and I, probably will not feel the value of what we are doing.
I also think you can find use in most things. Even while fantasizing we are doing something. Perhaps, we are formulating ideas. It might also be as simple as just enjoying the free time we have to do such things. Not everything needs to have incredible, life-changing value.
If you want to put lucid dreaming to a plateau where it might reap results, I suggest finding something to practice in it. I don’t remember where I read it, maybe it was LaBerge’s book, but I remember reading about how someone learned to do maneuvers in ice skating through LDing. She was too afraid to try them in real life, so she used her dreams to practice. She lost her fear and became quite good at the activity. No longer did she watch her friends while moving in repetitive circles. To me, that says a lot about what one is capable of in a lucid dream. All we have to do is find that thing which we want to develop.
Hmm... yes I wan't to belive that I have more purpose in life other then spreading my species, but over the centuries what did we achived, and what was the goal? And also each and every animal goes around the world with a single goal of spreading themselves, and human is no exeption, or what was that we done that didn't support this single minded instinct?Quote:
Originally Posted by Follower
P.S.: Sorry for sounding like a depressed b|tch
i wouldnt be so quick to bash the guy. he doesnt so much come down on lucid dreaming, but in a philisophical sense he lamets the idea of being God, as being THE ONLY ONE, brahman if you will. i have had a similar experience on certain hallucinogenics where i felt i was God...not that i could do anything Godlike, but knowing that I am the only being and everyone and everything around me is a division of myself was truly HELL in its purest form. if any of you get into hinduism or buddhism, this is a recurring theme in thier beliefs.
Great discussion! Some very thought provoking stuff (thanks!) all nice and civil too... I found myself agreeing and disagreeing with everyone!!!
[Hoping not to sound patronising]
Follower - have you read any Satre - e.g. Nausea? A lot of what you say sounds like classic existentialist stuff? I adopted that perspective for a while in my early 20s and indeed started writing a book called 'A Search for Reality' - found it, lost it, found it, lost it - and its still being 'written' twenty years later! It all got rather to nauseating though so... [snip] ...ended up with a Zen perspective where I try to remember that 'all is illusion' (waking and dreaming realities both), and also strive (whilst not striving - very tricky!) to 'be here now' (where time/space & self/other do not exist) and have frequently fully percieved Truth (whatever that might be!!!)
The lyrics of a Donovan song spring to mind: "First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is."
Still playing with lucid dreaming and tantric dream yoga (and sex) and as it currently goes I'm enjoying the ephemeral illusions immensely... :wink:
I wholheartedly disagree that you could run out of things to do in a lucid
however, I do understand what hes syaing when he says,
about it being sad that you cant share your amazing experience with anyone, and that it could feel really lonley
that I do understand.
Ive always wodnered that
I bleeive that is why shared dreaming is so interesting to people
because they would love to have lucids with someone
to discuss all the great thigns they did together
i kind o get his ida, regarding lonlyness in a lucid
Imran
I think that you can only become bored with godlike power if you ALLOW yourself godlike power. If he wanted a challenge, he should have challenged himself. set out of climb the mountains of the moon one handed or something; as long as you don't "Cheat" I don't see why it should be any less satisfying than in real life. Other than that, I do understand his argument.