Thread: This Guy Bashes Lucid Dreaming!?

Just a random thing about when follower said:

Originally Posted by Follower

I heard from a few people who're very good at LDing that it gets boring. You don't know what else to do, you've tried everything possible and understood that lucid dreams are, just like normal dreams, nothing but an illusion.
[/b]

I know what these people meant. This same thing happened to me.
Let me elaborate:

I spent days of my life doing the WILD technique, using this method I learned to instantly enter the dreamstate whenever I felt like it.
Hearing this you might say "OmGzorz! he sO FLy!!!", in reality, I wasn't very "fly" at all.

You see, as I kept getting more and more LDs under my belt I became accustomed to the feeling of being "lucid", so used to it in fact, that my day-to-day conscious behavior began to become more and more dreamlike. It was like I was always half asleep, both in my dreams, and out of them.
I never even saw this happening, I just slowly began to notice a couple things:

a) people didn't like me very much/ I couldn't talk to people very well. (in real life)
b) My LDs became more and more "imaginary" (like a daydream pretty much, there was nothing I could do to stop this from happening either...)
and
c) My lucids began to just be all around very crappy

I was never truly awake in my dreams anymore, it was like in both real life and my dreamlife I couldn't concentrate on anything. As I'm sure you've guessed, this sucked serious balls.


Anyway the gist of what I had to do to fix that problem was simple, I just quit LDing for a few months
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++

So yeah, I think thats what happens to everyone when they let lucid dreaming take control of their lives. Its like a drug, how often you use it determines how good it is.

Originally Posted by Follower

99% of people who turn to lucid dreaming do it for the same reason that others overplay computer games, overwatch TV, overuse sex or use drugs: they want to escape real life.
[/b]

This is what I was going to say to the above: So what? You get older, you give up the partying, you get busy; and lucid dreams have no side effects, take no time out of your busy schedule, don't kill brain cells or cause muscular atrophy, and can maybe even improve your skills or give you some insight into your subconscious.

Then I read BillyBob's post! Say it isn't so! Is this what I have to look forward to? I so wanted to have control (like you, Oneironaut) and to do all those things I imagined when I first read about LD, but if it leads to not being able to tell fantasy from reality, that may not be good.

Maybe it is just WILDing, and I suck at that, so I'll probably be OK...

(But Follower: I understand what you are saying; but I think that is because maybe some people, maybe like me, will not get to the level at which some of the really talented people do; and in that case, LD may eventually seem boring. And I do want to use LD for a higher purpose eventually; to improve myself, for example public speaking, off the top of my head. I am going to keep trying; I have hope.)

P.S. A possible solution: don't spend too much of your waking life thinking about your dreaming life. Let it come, if it is going to, if not; well, you get to fly a few times! And I haven't gotten bored with that yet.

I apoligize beforehand for the length of this post.

Originally Posted by Follower

I knew one who didn’t want to, he experienced awful things (not only hallucinations), but didn’t want to get cured. He is such an unhappy person, always on the verge of suicide, he can forget a chunk of yesterday and wake up suddenly in an unfamiliar place.[/b]

Please quote in context, Follower. The sentence directly before your quote of Oneironaut ends with: "2) isn’t a danger to themselves or anyone else." I would say always being on the verge of suicide is a danger to themself. But that's just me.

Originally Posted by Follower

“Good” for me means being able to lucid dream every night, or whenever you want, for decent amount of time. Is it naturally possible? I think that it can only be learnt, otherwise lucid dreaming would have been widespead and well-known centuries ago.[/b]

First, to go lucid every night or at will is near mastery of lucid dreaming, in my opinion. It would take years or at least an extended period of intensive training to accomplish this.

And about being naturally possible. One becomes lucid when one realizes one is dreaming. That's it. Not that they have complete control or even have any control whatsoever just that they realize they are dreaming. Does this really sound so far fetched as to be unnatural?

Oh, and to clarify, lucid dreaming has been known for centuries, so just because it wasn't widespread or well-known, especially to you, doesn't mean it wasn't around or known about.

Originally Posted by Follower

I’m judging by what I see at the forums, and that is that people LD in order to get thrilled and play in a virtual world. That could be a wrong impression, but let someone speak up then and state what other purposes they LD for. I’d be glad to hear such statements, since I’m searching for a worthy purpose myself.[/b]

This is where you reveal your true bias Follower. You read into what you've seen in the forums "that people LD in order to get thrilled and play in a virtual world." as exactly what you were looking for. To be clear, to me that means that what you see is a result of you only reading topics that seemed interesting and thrilling to you and only seeing posts that pertained to people playing in a virtual world.

For me, LDing is just another tool, and a very powerful one at that, of learning self-control. That is, to be in control of myself, my actions and my thoughts and not fall into the delusion that I have control over my surroundings (even though in my LD's I do). That is what I see as the ultimate challenge in LD's, namely, even though I am in a world entirely of my own creation, I try to never delude myself that I am in control of anything besides myself. (With my exploration into buddhist philosophy, LDing is also a great tool to deconstruct the illusion of the self, but I digress)

Originally Posted by Follower

I got addicted to a single-player game once and couldn’t stop playing it for two days (didn’t even sleep) until it was finished. There was another game in my life, have you heard of esports? Some maniacs spend hours per day playing just one game, duelling, team deathmatching, etc, and believe me that can be much more thrilling than lucid dreaming. To this day, I must say that nothing can be compared to the times when I played that game every day. Nothing.[/b]

To say that nothing in your experience can compare to you playing a video game and also having the opinion that, to quote one of your earlier posts about the downside of LD's, "You’re all alone there, surrounded only by creations of your own mind.", again, to me says that your so uncreative that you would rather be surrounded by creations of someone else's mind (the game creators) than your own. You seriously don't think your views are even a tiny bit materialistic? But, to be fair, you are entitled to your own opinion.

Originally Posted by Follower

Well, I saw one game that could , but it’s not the point. I understand that you get different reactions from DCs in LDs, often unexpected, but in truth it is you speaking to yourself. It only means that you wanted to see that very reaction or a group of reactions, subconsciously.[/b]

You saw a game that had dialogue that was as realistic and dynamic as real life? Someone predicted your reactions well enough that you mistaked the game for reality? Truthfully? Well, to echo Oneironaut, please tell us what supergame this is because if I can get the experience of a lucid dream on my t.v. without any effort whatsoever, then by all means it would be an experience.

And it's really you speaking to your subconscious thoughts of how someone else would react. If you can't see the extremely subtle difference, then woe to you.

Originally Posted by Follower

We’re not very much like ourselves in lucid dreams.[/b]

What kind of split personality do you have that you are not much like yourself in a lucid dream? I can only speak for myself, which is what you should do (with respect), that I am myself in a lucid dream albeit in a fantastic environment of my own making, by conscious or subconscious means.

Originally Posted by Follower

There’s much in our lives that is only subjectively real. I want something objectively real, and if there is none then an objectively real (useful) purpose.
It’s just that, this reality and this environment is good enough. Why create a fake one to enjoy it when you can enjoy right here and now?
[/b]

I would say most of our (human) experience is subjective. Even though the phenomena we observe is objective (if you have read any quantum mechanics, even this notion comes under attack) we humans put such a subjective spin on said phenomena that only truly, forgive the pun, lucid individuals realize the difference between our subjective and objective views on our surrounding reality.

I couldn't agree more that this reality and environment is good enough, but lucid dreaming is just another tool to understand the awesome complexity and subtle simplicity of the universe surrounding us. A lucid dream is only as fake as the dream that we call life.

Follower, I truly mean no offense and really love the chance for both of us to express our opposing views on LD's in a common forum and again I apologize to all for the length.

Run out of things to do?? Haaa what a hoot.
I agree with you guys.
I would like to add that what he proposes would be similar to saying, your brain is now useless, you are done learning. Maybe he is bored with life. Moreover the fact that most people are so obsessed with DOING something in their dream. Why does everyone have to manipulate the dream scene? We have control of our actions in our waking life, do we manipulate and control everything during the coarse of a day? of course not. Granted in a dream, your forum to do this is uninhibited. However I would like to see more people use lucid dreaming as a learning skill. Take a look at what you subconscious has to tell you. Take in all of these abstract thoughts... on a conscious level. * That will always be ever changing as you grow, learn, live and experiance new things.

I think he has a good point. Being in ultimate control for too long without anything to challenge oneself, it will not be enjoyable for such a long time.

Personally I like having Lucid Dreams, especially going on rampage killing people. But I wouldn't want to have them too much. In my opinion, it is also enjoyable with normal dreams, as everything is less predictible due to not being in charge, and there is much more satisfaction when defeating one's fears and achieving goals in them.

He says he has complete control of his dreams which I think is impossible. He even mentions a dream he had where the police where after him and a friend. His friend went to park his car and he got out then he saw the cops coming around a corner so he rewound and stayed in the car instead of getting out. If you are a god like entity if you had COMPLETE control of your dreams the cops would have come around the corner in the first place because you would have to choice to make it happen.
I don't think anyone can have complete control of your dreams. I think you can have amazing powers and do what ever you want but, correct me if I'm wrong here, I don't think there is anyone out there that dreams where nothing is a surprise, where they control every aspect.

Gregash:

I would say always being on the verge of suicide is a danger to themself.

That’s why I wrote that. To disprove Oneironaut’s point that it is possible to be mentally ill and be safe.

about being naturally possible. One becomes lucid when one realizes one is dreaming. That's it. Not that they have complete control or even have any control whatsoever just that they realize they are dreaming. Does this really sound so far fetched as to be unnatural?

You’re missing the point. I was talking about natural possibility of what you call “mastery of lucid dreaming”.

Oh, and to clarify, lucid dreaming has been known for centuries, so just because it wasn't widespread or well-known, especially to you, doesn't mean it wasn't around or known about.

It was never widespead, only known in closed communities.

to me that means that what you see is a result of you only reading topics that seemed interesting and thrilling to you and only seeing posts that pertained to people playing in a virtual world.

No, I don’t read such topics.

I try to never delude myself that I am in control of anything besides myself.

Ok, I know where it came from. But you’ll have to search this forum thoroughly to find at least a couple of people discussing such things, especially discussing them seriously.
Anyway, if you agree with me on this, why are you arguing?

you would rather be surrounded by creations of someone else's mind (the game creators) than your own.

The game with which I said nothing can compare with was not a single-player game. Esports got mentioned, right? That means spending hours per day with other people, which are not creations of my mind. You’d have to get into such things yourself to understand that for a while it can be cooller than anything else, including sex
[quote]Someone predicted your reactions well enough that you mistaked the game for reality?[quote]
No, someone wrote such interesting and dynamic dialogues that they captured my attention for two days non-stop. That’s talent.
Why should I tell you what super game that was, if you didn’t understand the point about esports?
I think that you aren’t prone to games, so that game might never influence you like that.
Another example would be reading a very good book. Wouldn’t you get immersed completely into it? Sometimes you can get such vivid pictures that you stop hearing and seeing anything around. You forget where you are and who you are. That’s called talent, too.
But you have to be prone to reading books.
And what you’re talking about is only visual environment. As if there is nothing greater in life than high-quality pictures around. If that is so, then you don’t need lucid dreams. Look around and you’ll see reality captured with your eyes. It is of the highest quality, 3D, realism, all five sense present at once, your body, all the little details, billions of colors…

it's really you speaking to your subconscious thoughts of how someone else would react.

And so, it is still your own subconscious. Nothing new. Why would you want someone to behave like you want him to? I’d like people to behave in a new way, do something unexpected, argue with me, like you do. Only then some progress is possible.

I am myself in a lucid dream albeit in a fantastic environment of my own making, by conscious or subconscious means.

Let me doubt that, unless you’re a super master of LDing. Earlier you called being able to LD every night “a mastery of lucid dreaming”, so I deduct that you can’t do it? Sorry if you can.

A lucid dream is only as fake as the dream that we call life.

You’re saying things like that and disagreeing with me? You delve into things like dream yoga and disagree? I can’t put two and two together. You argue on behalf of someone else?

I truly mean no offense and really love the chance for both of us to express our opposing views on LD's

The same for me. And that would never happen in a LD, an opposing view that you could hear there would be just what you subconsciously desire to hear as an opposing view.

No idea why quoting didn't work. Sorry.

I too, completely agree with what the other posters have said, Follower. In fact, there's one thing I'm missing that strikes me, personally, as very relevant.

You said these people got bored because they realized their lucid dreams were an illusion. Now, it may be that others don't want to look at it this way, but to me, lucid dreams are just as much an illusion as waking life and waking life is just as much an illusion as dreams are. The main difference, besides the possibilities you have in both "illusions", is how long they last. A dream will last just over 30 minutes at the most, while one's real life experiences will add up to years (excepting those horribly unlucky).

Both dreams and waking life are either "realities" or "illusions", whichever you prefer. I must say I'd consider the former term more accurate, but they're just words, they're not that important.
The difference is that one is subjective, meaning it happens only in your mind, and the other is partly objective, meaning that, while your mind still conveniently models it for you, there are outside influences that affect the people around you as well.
They are, however, similar in that you experience both kinds of realities, and that dreams can (and the kind of dreams that we're talking about here definitly will) be just as convincing and real in anything you do as waking life.

The bottom line is that stating that dreams are only illusions strikes me as trying to say they're unimportant. That they, as experiences, don't add anything to anything. This may be true, but in that reasoning, the same goes for life. All in all, I guess the most compact explanation of what I've tried to say is in my signature.

Edit: Looks like I'm not missing this point anymore after finding out about the other two pages of this thread

Umbrella:

Originally Posted by Umbrella

to me, lucid dreams are just as much an illusion as waking life and waking life is just as much an illusion as dreams are. The main difference, besides the possibilities you have in both "illusions", is how long they last.[/b]

That's a good point, but I'm uneasy to let myself think like you do. This way it would be way too easy to stop discerning reality from dreams.

I've never seen it as a bad thing to make the lines between dreams and waking life fade at least a little. I'm not crazy. I know a decision I make in waking life is much more important than one that I make in my dreams, but only because a waking decision will affect you much longer.

In fact I often check my state not just by pinching my nose (which is my preferred method), but by forcing my self to look at my environment as if I were dreaming. This actually makes me more aware, rather make me doubt.

There are a lot of mentally ill people who know that they’re hallucinating and whose sickness doesn’t force them cause harm to others. But they do get medication. I knew one who didn’t want to, he experienced awful things (not only hallucinations), but didn’t want to get cured. He is such an unhappy person, always on the verge of suicide, he can forget a chunk of yesterday and wake up suddenly in an unfamiliar place. That’s a horrible life.
I think that you make a mistake thinking that one can hallucinate being aware of it and that there will be nothing happening besides hallucinations. There’s so much more that comes with them. And people who experience them can often be completely sane and conscious while experiencing them.
[/b]

The premise of this part of the conversation was your mentioning hallucinations, and how (albeit sarcastically) maybe I could dissuade psychiatrists from giving medication to those who are mentally ill. “Mentally Ill” encompasses a lot – including, but not limited to, those who only experience hallucinations. When I said “IF they are walking around seeing smiley faces” etc. I did not imply that all patients who hallucinate only see smiley faces and positive things. You’d completely gone off subject when I was talking about the (subjectively) “Real Life” experience of having a dream, and you (somehow) related that to implying that I didn’t feel any mental patients needed to be medicated for their “real life” hallucinations.
My reply was that ‘IF they only hallucinate positive content, are aware they are hallucinating and do not pose a problem to themselves or others, then No, they don’t need to be medicated.’ Not only does your analogy with the (alleged) man you know of not fit the criteria I’d mentioned (He had Horrible hallucinations, refusing medication and choosing to live with these horrible hallucinations) but to say that you’ve “disproved the claim that it’s possible to be mentally ill and safe” by posting one anecdote about a man with horrible hallucinations (that I’m assuming is true) is a logical fallacy, in itself.

I think that it can only be learnt, otherwise lucid dreaming would have been widespead and well-known centuries ago. You couldn’t ignore something if it was so naturally noticeable .
[/b]

I’m not sure I follow you on this one. We have a lot of “naturals” on this forum alone. By “learnt,” do you mean taught from some other source, or becoming lucid, naturally, and teaching yourself how to become more efficient in it. None of the skills we have, whether “natural” or not, were given to us at birth.
I can’t even imagine how good I would be at lucid dreaming if I’d kept up with my own exploration of it. 6-8 years old, I was “learning” how to fly. How to “let go” and defy what little I knew of waking world physics. How to manifest weapons. Is that what you mean by learnt? Or Naturally? Please clarify. This, I believe, is something that Everyone has the ability to do, but not always the right circumstance to uncover this ability at an early age.

I don’t think that it’s possible to feel loneliness while lucid dreaming. We’re not very much like ourselves in lucid dreams. But upon waking, when you know that you cannot share…
[/b]

You’d be surprised. I’ve read/heard many accounts from people (mainly the manically depressed/emo types) that allow that “it’s all in your head” logic to do just that: introduce them to the fact that everything around them is, ultimately, created by them and that they are, in fact, alone. This then, whether sincerely or not, causes them to dwell on that fact. Many of them do nothing to their DC’s but treat them as they are, figments of the imagination, and they become conditioned to the loneliness of being in their own head, by themselves. I think it’s this type of thinking that can cause the same boredom/disconnect that you’re feeling (though it is technically correct, so don't take that as an insult).

It’s just that, this reality and this environment is good enough. Why create a fake one to enjoy it when you can enjoy right here and now? Why talk to DCs when you can talk to real people and enjoy it? Why read a forum in a LD when you can read it in real life? Usually it’s only crap in dreamt forums that could be interesting to glance at, but it is nothing that can be compared to quiet joy that you feel upon associating with another human being.[/b]

Again, your entire stance on lucid dreaming seems to be based on the assumption that people are only lucid dreaming to escape reality, as evident in the questions you’re asking.

“Why create a fake reality to enjoy when you can enjoy it here and now?”
The dream reality was created subconsciously. I’m simply learning to take more advantage of things you simply can’t do in this “good enough reality,” which are possible in dreams, when I choose to. Confinement to two legs is “good enough” in waking life but, when you can fly around in your head while your body sleeps at night instead of still being confined to the ground and always living out a scripted dream, I'd rather live with the option. I’m sure the Wright Brothers would feel the same. And no, I don’t think they began flight for anything more than welcoming the experience of flight (other, more "useful" influences probably came later). Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t think so.

And so, it is still your own subconscious. Nothing new. Why would you want someone to behave like you want him to? I’d like people to behave in a new way, do something unexpected, argue with me, like you do. Only then some progress is possible.[/b]

Again, I wonder about how limited your experiences are. I don’t know about you but, whether I’m lucid or not, my DC’s are often Completely unpredictable in their actions. Even if they do answer in ways I “subconsciously wanted” the whole concept of the subconscious is that it’s not consciously available, meaning that you probably aren’t sure how they are going to react, otherwise it would be what you consciously wanted.

Let me doubt that, unless you’re a super master of LDing. Earlier you called being able to LD every night “a mastery of lucid dreaming”, so I deduct that you can’t do it? Sorry if you can.
[/b]

I’m (I will give you the benefit of doubt by saying “Almost”) always myself in lucid dreams. I’m interested to hear in what ways you are different from yourself, in waking life, besides maybe that you’d do a few things that you wouldn’t do in life, because you know you’re dreaming.

That's a good point, but I'm uneasy to let myself think like you do. This way it would be way too easy to stop discerning reality from dreams.[/b]

And this, Follower, might be the most revealing post of your whole argument. Before now, it was hard to understand why you’ve said some of the things you’ve said, but these two sentences speak volumes.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

My reply was that ‘IF they only hallucinate positive content, are aware they are hallucinating and do not pose a problem to themselves or others, then No, they don’t need to be medicated.’[/b]

Ok, and I was trying to say that you don’t get a mentally ill person who is only seeing hallucinations and won’t suffer anything else. It is an ilssness, which means something is wrong with the brain. It also means that it will progress. You seem to think that illness can consist of just having visions, like watching a movie, and otherwise being absolutely sane and healthy.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Is that what you mean by learnt? Or Naturally? Please clarify.[/b]

By ‘natural’ I mean having an inborm ability to lucid dream at will. Learnt would be learning to do it.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

I’ve read/heard many accounts from people (mainly the manically depressed/emo types) that allow that “it’s all in your head” logic to do just that: introduce them to the fact that everything around them is, ultimately, created by them and that they are, in fact, alone.[/b]

It is what dream yoga is mostly about.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

whether I’m lucid or not, my DC’s are often Completely unpredictable in their actions.[/b]

But in truth there’s no unpredictibility. You can pretend to forget it, of course. That’s good to learn what you subconsciously desire and didn’t know about yourself.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

I’m (I will give you the benefit of doubt by saying “Almost”) always myself in lucid dreams.[/b]

You remember the day of the week, your name, all the data? You never forget anything that you wanted before falling asleep? You can pause and think? Don’t tell me that it is so (but if it is, you’re a master). Have you ever tried just to stand on the spot doing nothing, were you able to do it however long you want, absolutely still, without moving (nor your body nor any parts of your body, even your head)? If you can, then yeah you control yourself perfetly…
When we’re asleep the left brain works and the right one is hindered, so of course we’re in a different state of mind. Just pay attention to it. Some reactions are different, have you ever experienced an uncontrollable aggression or fright and caught yourself in the middle of feeling it? I can't believe it. Maybe you never paid attention.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

And this, Follower, might be the most revealing post of your whole argument.[/b]

Maybe it is news for you. But I thought that being able to discern reality and dreams is a sign of normality, are you hinting that it is not?

Follower you said that you can't find any use of ld-ing, becouse it is just a virtual reality where only you are, and it just a waste of time to learn it, as it's just a game (sorry if I misunderstood you)

But then, you told us about that game, what aspect of your life did it improve?
-the reflexes? do some martial arts, instead of sitting infront of the computer, and you'll get more then just badass reflexes
-socializing? I doubt you'll ever get a girlfriend, as it is rare for girls to play comupter games, and you could also go to parties
(and I know I didn't check the game, sry for that it's late here right now, and tomorrow I'll write an exam...)

So from this perspective there is no real point for playing games, unless for the mere fun of it (and we all know that's why we play games ^^)


As for dreams, if you are searching a use:
-overcoming fears, not only fobias, but if you are afraid of anything, like doing a salto, spiders...etc etc, and you can practice speaking also
-in dream everything might be fake, but you feel what you feel, wich means you can drive your anger down in dream, on some dc-s maybe...
-I read somewhere (I check where) that you can practice different skills in dreams, as your neurogial system will get used to those movements (skills like juggling, doing salto, everything physical maybe)


You also mentioned it's dumb becouse you are alone, you are the only one in the dream, so it's like playing cards with yourself, you know all the cards in all the hands, so what the point?
My anwser to this is a question (wich was put up a few times before me): do you REALLY know everything in a dream, every little bit, every little happening, even if it's your subconciusness, (so it's you), you can't predict everything, so you might learn something new about yourself, your real feelings, real intentions.

And sorry for any grammar mistakes, and such

P.S.: I think I'll change my signature....

Damn, another long one. I almost hate when I get to rambling...
...almost.

Ok, and I was trying to say that you don’t get a mentally ill person who is only seeing hallucinations and won’t suffer anything else. It is an ilssness, which means something is wrong with the brain. It also means that it will progress. You seem to think that illness can consist of just having visions, like watching a movie, and otherwise being absolutely sane and healthy.[/b]

Follower, let’s try to stay on topic, here. First we’re talking about the mental imagery of dreams and how the experience (not the images) can be classified as real life experience (even though you misunderstood at first, but that’s ok) and then you ask me about doctors discontinuing their medication because of these “Real Life” images (in which, I could still see the point you were making). Now, though, you’re going from just talking about the related visualization, between dreaming and some mental illnesses, into connecting those visualizations to other neurological/psychological problems that stem from the progressive illness. Not only is that way off the subject, but my implications to anything other than the mental imagery aspect of our conversation is irrelevant because what I proposed about the “Smiley faces and Small World” was a hypothetical that had only to do with hallucinations.
I’ve yet to speak about anything that I really think about mental illnesses besides the hypothetical of “IF they only hear/see positive things,” which is the only way I could connect your bringing mental illness into the conversation to anything we were talking about, concerning dreams.

By ‘natural’ I mean having an inborm ability to lucid dream at will. Learnt would be learning to do it.[/b]

I think your definition of “natural” lucid dreamer may be impossible. How does a baby know the difference between the waking world and the dream state? How do they know there is a difference? It would take knowledge of what dreams are as opposed to some knowledge about the objective world, and the cognitive ability to differentiate between the two, before someone can have a lucid dream. I don’t think this is information given to any of us, at birth.
Remember, dream content (from the scientific standpoint) is made up of a combination of past experiences. Conceivably there would be no "fantasy" for a baby to discern reality from fantasy, as all their dreams would probably be too realistic to tell them apart from the waking world.

It is what dream yoga is mostly about.[/b]

Again, if you’re going to quote me, please do it in context.
My very next sentence was: “This then, whether sincerely or not, causes them to dwell on that fact,” meaning that without a (seemingly) pathological attachment to the minimalist ideology of the “solitude” of dreaming, it is still possible to be aware that one is dreaming without consciously (or subconsciously?) attempting to find the predictables in every aspect of the dream.

But in truth there’s no unpredictibility. You can pretend to forget it, of course. That’s good to learn what you subconsciously desire and didn’t know about yourself.[/b]

Again, I disagree. Though many things that happen in my dreams are due to expectation, whether consciously or subconsciously, many of them deal with conceptual relationships that are so abstract and/or hidden so well, that they create completely unpredictable experiences/dialogue. Your mind is bombarded with subconscious influences for your dreams, everyday. Dream characters/content gains newer relationships and attachments to other dream content, daily.
To say that there is no unpredictability in dreams is to have a static mind where nothing changes – where DC X’s replay to your same question, asked in two different dreams to the same DC, is always going to yield the exact same response. This simply isn’t true – unless, of course, you’re the type that has solidified in your mind (for whatever reason) that everything in dreams is predictable. That same ideology that I mentioned in the response to the last quote can then cause you to start trying to predict everything that is going to happen, subconsciously, which could possibly cause your dreams to become more linear, predictable….boring.

You remember the day of the week, your name, all the data? You never forget anything that you wanted before falling asleep? You can pause and think? Don’t tell me that it is so (but if it is, you’re a master). Have you ever tried just to stand on the spot doing nothing, were you able to do it however long you want, absolutely still, without moving (nor your body nor any parts of your body, even your head)? If you can, then yeah you control yourself perfetly…
When we’re asleep the left brain works and the right one is hindered, so of course we’re in a different state of mind. Just pay attention to it. Some reactions are different, have you ever experienced an uncontrollable aggression or fright and caught yourself in the middle of feeling it? I can't believe it. Maybe you never paid attention.[/b]

So far, I don’t have too much trouble with remembering things that I try to, when lucid. No more trouble than I have remembering things when I’m awake, really (which may not be saying much, but you get my point ). This is how I (we) complete the tasks of the month, when we think about them. I’ve even decided not to do a task before because I remembered that it was the first day of the next month, and the previous month’s task was now over.
Granted, I’ve never had a situation where I was lucid and had to tell someone my name (because they already know, don’t they?) so my name doesn’t come up that often. When we are awake we can often have different reactions to like situations. When my dad died, I would find myself spiraling into an emotional negative that was completely uncommon for me. I would consciously catch on to how “unlike me” this was, and would be able to bring myself out of it.
Variations of “us” are still “us,” whether awake or dreaming. It’s very rare, since childhood, that I have dreams where I’m not in full control of my actions, whether lucid or not, so if your question is: Have I had any drastic changes, in lucid dreams, as in acting completely uncharacteristic of myself? Not very many that I can think of. I think I’m more “like myself” in dreams than I am on many mind-altering substances, and I’m usually very controlled on them.

Maybe it is news for you. But I thought that being able to discern reality and dreams is a sign of normality, are you hinting that it is not?(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smiley.gif)[/b]

Of course not. Normal, sure. But I think much of your argument is more a method to maintain your discernment between reality and dreams, rather than a picture of a logical perception of the perspectives of others who lucid dream – forging reinforcement of (what I believe are) misconceptions in an understandable reach for the normality you just spoke of.
But of course, it's all relative and you've had many experiences that I haven't, and vice versa, so I could be making an unfair assessment.
I just call 'em like I see 'em.

[Edit]
Oh, and as far as "running out of things to do in a lucid dream:"
I think that (besides the limiting idea of "the adventure is meaningless because it's all in your head) that this is due to a complete lack of creativity and/or preplanning. After taking a little waking world time to actually think about what you'd like to do in a lucid dream, you should have more than enough ammunition to keep yourself interested (hence the tasks of the month).
Without doing that, you're expecting to come up with everything cool to do, while you're actually dreaming, which is kind of like someone telling you you have an hour or so to teleport anywhere in the world and take home anything you want, for free, and expecting to not forget one thing you've always wanted.

Originally Posted by Follower

The game with which I said nothing can compare with was not a single-player game. Esports got mentioned, right? That means spending hours per day with other people, which are not creations of my mind. You’d have to get into such things yourself to understand that for a while it can be cooller than anything else, including sex [/b]

My point was that any action you perform is the result of someone creating the ability to do so. Every single action and in truth the entire environment has been pre-fabricated by the game's creator. And while you can speak with others your only interaction is within an environment of no substance.

You demonstrate my original point perfectly right here. The fact that you think interacting with a game (even if it is against real people over a network) is cooler than anything else, even sex, yet you seem to have a poor opinion of people who enjoy lucid dreaming.

That's like the pot calling the kettle black.

Originally Posted by Follower

It is what dream yoga is mostly about.[/b]

My understanding of dream yoga is that it is a method that utilizes one's dreams on the path to enlightenment. I don't see how that pertains to someone who would use their dreams to isolate themselves from the rest of reality (the kind of person I believe Oneironaut was describing).

And while, yes, this is one of my most important reasons for exploring LDs, I don't see how this fact makes our two separate opinions agree with one another. Please, explain how it does.

First, I would like to address the whole mental illness thing, which deals with perception of reality and whatnot. One can have complications without needing treatment. Generally, it is not seen as a problem unless it involves abnormal behavior (which is defined in several different ways) which creates discomfort or danger. If one were to hallucinate, but know he is hallucinating, and it does not cause a problem, there may be no reason for this person to be treated, even in the perspective of the one that wishes to treat the individual. However, it is quite likely that it is causing a problem, so this individual would like receive treatment. There are people out there that have problems, even schizophrenia, and do not receive treatment. Unfortunately, I would say many of these people do not actually know they have a mental condition. Some do, but choose to manage the condition themselves.

Second, just because lucid dreaming is just that - a dream - does not change the fact that it is an experience. Yes, it is not technically a 'real' experience, but I inquire, what is real? This is not a biological concept. This concept, to me, is a philosophical concept, which is debated. A friend told me about a debate he had about reality, and someone asked him, "are you awake?" This suggests that only the physical world can be real; however, is not the physical world and the way we see it merely a perception? The values and cognitions we hold about this universe are not defined. Some people do in fact see the world differently than others. Just think, a color blind person, from birth, cannot define things based on the same colors because they cannot see them, nor would they know what these things look like. It is the same thing for a sense that is missing. Some people cannot even feel. So, I ask you, what is "real" to them?

Reality, or the perception thereof, is by no means an absolute. I am not a relativistic man, but in this case I would say that reality is subjective. Reality is simply that which we perceive, dream or not, at least as far as I can tell. That is not to say everything is corporeal and tangible. I would say that most would not want to see it this way. Let me tackle another concept that is not quite so philosophical and "out there".

What is an experience? This might be a lot of different things to a lot of different people. It might be simply knowledge gained from an event or situation. It might be anything, even day-to-day life. I think many of us would agree though, that experience is that which shapes us. Is it the physical world alone that shapes us though? Can you say that you took absolutely nothing away from any dream in your lifetime? If you say yes, I say you're a liar. Looking at it this way, dreams are true experiences in a virtual world. No, this world does not always make sense, but you can certainly take things from it. I have established quite a level of sensation in my lucid dreams, though I have not conquered it. I can feel, see, hear, and even to a degree taste. The experiences I hold might not be exact replicas of the physical world (though it has been said that the dream state can nearly mimic it perfectly in certain events), they are still experiences because each time I take information and store a memory of the event, I am gaining something that will shape me to some degree. When I see another world, I see it whether or not I can touch it in my waking life.

I must agree with Oneironaut, if one cannot use their lucid dreams in an interesting way that might even remain of interest, I would say that person is not being very creative. If the problem is being a god in your dreams, I challenge you not to be a god. After all, this should easily be one of those things you control. Yes, you might know that it is a dream, but that does not mean you have to control every aspect. I disagree that being a god is the only interesting thing one can do. Think outside the box please.

If you have trouble finding an interesting thing to experience, then look at other's ideas. You could even look at a fantasy book. You might read up on some historical events that you might want to experience. You might make your own story and try to play a part. Maybe, it will be old age, modern, or futuristic. Seriously, you have no limits yet you speak of such limitations. Sorry, but the "real world" cannot give you everything you could possibly want. You will not experience everything limiting yourself like this. One can look at lucid dreaming like reading a book. Are you bored of them too?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE

The game with which I said nothing can compare with was not a single-player game. Esports got mentioned, right?smiley.gif That means spending hours per day with other people, which are not creations of my mind.smiley.gif You’d have to get into such things yourself to understand that for a while it can be cooller than anything else, including sex smiley.gif
[/b]

My point was that any action you perform is the result of someone creating the ability to do so. Every single action and in truth the entire environment has been pre-fabricated by the game&#39;s creator. And while you can speak with others your only interaction is within an environment of no substance.

You demonstrate my original point perfectly right here. The fact that you think interacting with a game (even if it is against real people over a network) is cooler than anything else, even sex, yet you seem to have a poor opinion of people who enjoy lucid dreaming. huh.gif

That&#39;s like the pot calling the kettle black.
[/b][/quote]

Sry just wanted to point out, that he said, that for a while, wich could mean like half minute

the guy just sounds a little out of whack to me

A lucid dream is what you make it - end of story lol.

This is going to be long I wish it were possible to reply to people using each time a new post, just to make reading more comfortable, but unfortunately the forum adds every new post to a preceding one.


Qzole:

-socializing? I doubt you&#39;ll ever get a girlfriend, as it is rare for girls to play comupter games, and you could also go to parties [/b]

We live in different worlds? I know not a single girl who doesn’t play computer games. The most popular game among girls is GTA series, then go different 3dshooters. Forget these old views that your parents (?) imbued into you, you seem to think that girls choose girlish past-times. No clear division between male and female past-times exist nowadays. (In my country.)
As for socializing in general, most of friends and aquaintances I have now I met while playing that game. A lot of people. Not only people from my city, but from all over.
But gaming is only for youth, not forever. You have to spend too much time playing in order to progress or just not lose your skill. And you’re bound to lose your reflexes pretty soon anyway. And then, no game exists forever, it loses popularity. Well, I don’t play anymore.
LDing is not only for youth. And I can see how you deem it more useful after what you’ve said. Still our views are very different. It may be beneficial for you to practice public speaking in a dream, but it won’t be beneficial if you think ‘That’s not real, so there&#39;s nothing to be scared of’.


Oneironaut:

To say that there is no unpredictability in dreams is to have a static mind where nothing changes – where DC X’s replay to your same question, asked in two different dreams to the same DC, is always going to yield the exact same response.[/b]

Of course, predictability isn’t happening in a dream. But you know about it. And if so, then why interact with fake people? If you don’t deliberately deceive yourself into thinking that it’s a real person, then it’s like talking to your own reflection in a mirror.
In a LD you can do anything you want to DCs. Even if they demonstrate a seemingly unusual reaction it is possible to force them to do anything, even to disappear. Don’t you want a worthy person to talk to, instead of a slave&#33;

This is how I (we) complete the tasks of the month, when we think about them. I’ve even decided not to do a task before because I remembered that it was the first day of the next month, and the previous month’s task was now over.[/b]

This is easy, and that wasn’t what I was talking about. Try to consciously remember all your biographical data in a LD. Or write something down but don’t learn it by heart, and then try to say it in a LD. After you wake up you’ll be able to see that you’ve messed it up. Unless you’ve learnt it by heart.
You can try to retell a book that you’ve read a couple of years ago. If you don’t remember it well enough, i.e. it’s not recently read or your favorite, you’ll mess it up. Whereas in reality you would be able to think clearly.

I think much of your argument is more a method to maintain your discernment between reality and dreams, rather than a picture of a logical perception of the perspectives of others who lucid dream – forging reinforcement of (what I believe are) misconceptions in an understandable reach for the normality you just spoke of.[/b]

If you want to say that I mess reality and dreams, then no, it isn’t true.
It happens only rarely and in a way that every LDer experienced, after waking up after a very realistic dream. Such a dream feels as real as reality while you’re dreaming it, and so you wake up and aren’t sure if this is a false awakening. Especially if there were a raw of them right before that
But it only happens if you’re being foolish, coz it’s easy to check what you remember and how clearly you can think to learn if you are still dreaming or not.

Oh, and as far as "running out of things to do in a lucid dream:" I think that (besides the limiting idea of "the adventure is meaningless because it&#39;s all in your head) that this is due to a complete lack of creativity and/or preplanning.[/b]

No, it is due to a lack of desire to have fake adventures

After taking a little waking world time to actually think about what you&#39;d like to do in a lucid dream, you should have more than enough ammunition to keep yourself interested (hence the tasks of the month).[/b]

That’s it. A task of the month isn’t interesting for me. Or whatever else. I want to pursue some ‘higher’ goal rather than entertain myself. That’s all.


Gregash:

My point was that any action you perform is the result of someone creating the ability to do so. Every single action and in truth the entire environment has been pre-fabricated by the game&#39;s creator. And while you can speak with others your only interaction is within an environment of no substance.[/b]

So people are blaming me for saying that they only seek a virtual reality in dreams? And yet you talk about what I’m talking about as only a virtual reality&#33; That shows what people are seeking better than anything else.
First, games are different. Not all of them are rigid. Esports is like chess, in this type of game you need to read your opponent’s thoughts non-stop, you have to guess how he thinks or what he knows about your thinking, it’s all about predicting each other and outsmarting each other.
But you’re speaking only of a virtual world and how realistic it looks&#33; Ok, if that’s what you need, a virtual world of your own with realistic graphics, then surely LDs are your best bet. But that says much about what you seek, a fake environment to have adventures in, that looks so real that you can pretend that it is.
Sorry if that souded insulting, it wasn’t insulting, but people got angry at me before for stating this truth.

The fact that you think interacting with a game (even if it is against real people over a network) is cooler than anything else, even sex, yet you seem to have a poor opinion of people who enjoy lucid dreaming.[/b]

That shows that unfortunately you have no clue what type of gaming I’m talking about And you’re talking about 3d-environment reaslism anyway.

And while, yes, this is one of my most important reasons for exploring LDs, I don&#39;t see how this fact makes our two separate opinions agree with one another.[/b]

I don’t see how it makes them disagree. You use dream yoga’s ‘dream is an illusion’ method of LD exploration and yet you’re agreeing with others that it’s bad to think like that? The only logical expanation I can think of is that you use this method occasinally instead of all the time as it is meant to be used.



So, so far noone is interested in using dreams for other purposes but adventures in a virtual world? If someone is, please PM me, I can understand a lack of wish to talk about it in the topic. That would probably create more angry posts

So, so far noone is interested in using dreams for other purposes but adventures in a virtual world?[/b]

What do you mean by "adventures in a virtual world"? I think that&#39;s part of the confusion here. I haven&#39;t played a video game in years, and I&#39;ve never played one for days at a time. I have no notion of trying to turn my mind into a video game console.

I am fascinated to explore LDing because it&#39;s another universe with different rules. You could say any LD is an adventure in a virtual world. Except for those who believe in shared dreaming, we will all agree that LDs exist in a virtual world. But, "virtual world" does not necessarily mean "video game-like world".

LDing does not have to take up much time in a person&#39;s life at all. I avoid WILDing and focus on DILD because I don&#39;t want to change my sleep schedule at all for the purpose of LDing. The only "drain" on my life from LDing is the occasional dream journal entry, and time spent here. And both of those are good for more than just ld&#39;ing; I am seeing the world in new ways for all that I learn about LD&#39;ing, which is much more than just the content of my LD&#39;s.

Chess players enjoy more than simply moving pieces on the board. Golfers enjoy more than pushing a little ball into a hole in the ground. LD&#39;ers enjoy more than creating an imaginary world in their head.

Originally Posted by Follower

We live in different worlds? I know not a single girl who doesn’t play computer games. The most popular game among girls is GTA series, then go different 3dshooters. Forget these old views that your parents (?) imbued into you, you seem to think that girls choose girlish past-times. No clear division between male and female past-times exist nowadays. (In my country.)
[/b]

Ok, we really do live in different worlds Here not many of the girls plays on the computer. I don&#39;t say that there is no one, but defenetly not too many...

Originally Posted by Follower

Still our views are very different. It may be beneficial for you to practice public speaking in a dream, but it won’t be beneficial if you think ‘That’s not real, so there&#39;s nothing to be scared of’.
[/b]

Sadly, yet I don&#39;t have personal experience in using ld-ing for something like that (only had like 1.5 ld), but many psychiatrist, use methods like hypnosis tothe patient to face his/her fears, (I also heard there are trying this with virtual reality), and even if you know it&#39;s not real, it does looks/feels like the real thing

Originally Posted by Follower

So, so far noone is interested in using dreams for other purposes but adventures in a virtual world? If someone is, please PM me, I can understand a lack of wish to talk about it in the topic. That would probably create more angry posts
[/b]

Ok, so here comes my joker card: Go to the beyond dreaming part of the forum (warning: you have to be open minded), there are many people who speaks about different uses of ld-ing, if you don&#39;t accept the ones I gave you (wich I understand, as I don&#39;t have 1st hand experience)

Of course, predictability isn’t happening in a dream. But you know about it. And if so, then why interact with fake people? If you don’t deliberately deceive yourself into thinking that it’s a real person, then it’s like talking to your own reflection in a mirror.
In a LD you can do anything you want to DCs. Even if they demonstrate a seemingly unusual reaction it is possible to force them to do anything, even to disappear. Don’t you want a worthy person to talk to, instead of a slave&#33;[/b]

Haha. My friend, “What we have here is a failure to communicate&#33;”

Of course I’d rather interact with a real person, but we are talking about dreams here, in case you’ve forgotten. It’s not like we can interact with real people, while we are sleeping, now can we? You are still going off of the presumption that most people enjoy lucid dreaming as a fantasized replacement for waking life. No matter how much evidence I give of how wrong that is, you choose to ignore it and continue on with the conversation with that assumption on your “tongue“.

But let me try this one last time, putting it to you simply, by turning your own logic against you:

Why do you like movies? Why do you like PC games? (assuming you like these things, because enjoying entertainment is normal for us humans) You know it’s all fake, don’t you? You know that the characters are actors on a set, reciting scripted lines, right? You know that video game chars aren’t real people, right? Why do you advocate reading books? Why do you advocate using imagination to write books? Fiction is just that, fiction. Wouldn’t you rather involve yourself in the affairs of real people instead of having to rely on made up characters, plots, gaming formats?
Why involve yourself with eSports? Don’t you think it’s kind of pathetic to settle for competing online when you can go out and participate in a real sport?
(Note: every question I just said asked was sarcastic so don’t take that as me insulting you. Just showing what your reasoning looks like from the outside. Didn’t seem a little ignorant to you? Your argument is the equivalent of saying all movies should be educational documentaries and that enjoying film, for entertainment, is pathetic.)

The reason movie-goers/gamers can enjoy the entertainment of fiction is not because they “deceive themselves into thinking it’s real” it is because, knowing they are there to be entertained, they don’t care. They are suspending the logical, hardcore “realist” in them that has the urge to stand up and scream at the movie screen “YOU PEOPLE AREN’T REAL&#33; THIS STORY IS FAKE&#33;&#33;” and allowing themselves to enjoy the experience without dwelling on the obvious – that these are works of fiction. I still don’t get why that’s so hard for you to understand (aside from the implications that you simply choose not to.)

You can make a DC do anything you want, but you will probably enjoy yourself a lot more if you don’t. The concept is really not that technical.

This is easy, and that wasn’t what I was talking about. Try to consciously remember all your biographical data in a LD. Or write something down but don’t learn it by heart, and then try to say it in a LD. After you wake up you’ll be able to see that you’ve messed it up. Unless you’ve learnt it by heart.
You can try to retell a book that you’ve read a couple of years ago. If you don’t remember it well enough, i.e. it’s not recently read or your favorite, you’ll mess it up. Whereas in reality you would be able to think clearly.[/b]

Dude, I could hardly retell the beginning of the book I’m reading now, while I’m awake.
Seriously, though: Do you know how many factors can contribute to whether or not you (I) remember things you haven’t memorized “by heart?” Stress, Fatigue, Excitement, Anxiety, Apathy..the list goes on. The type of things you’re talking about having trouble remembering, while dreaming, can even be tough for some of us to pick up on the spot, under certain conditions, while awake. I fail to see your point. I’ve remembered more than enough waking world information, in, LDs to believe that remembering more is possible. Harder, maybe? But that proves….what?

No, it is due to a lack of desire to have fake adventures[/b]

And here we are, going around in circles again. That’s like saying “Man, I’m running out of things to do in my spare time” and someone else saying “Well there is a new Lord of the Rings coming out, let’s go see it” and you answering with “Hell no, I used to like those types movies but I now refuse to get involved in the fake adventures of some fictional character. It’s so pathetic…”

…and then you go home and sulk about how bored you are because you’re looking for something “more” and refuse to take advantage of anything else, until you find whatever it is you are looking for. You seem to be a stickler for the concept of a one-track mind (both in your perception of others and in your own philosophy) though there is room for duality in all of us and you shouldn’t be so quick to label everyone as either “this” or “that” or believe that “If I’m in the search for this” then “that (and everyone that does that) is beneath me, by all means.”

I want to pursue some ‘higher’ goal rather than entertain myself. That’s all.[/b]

Again, nothing wrong with that, but perhaps you shouldn’t let your search for “ascension” cause you to develop such degrading perceptions (many of which, to me, don’t even make sense) on those who enjoy a little open-minded adventure and fantasy, especially when you enjoyed the same kind of entertainment, at one time.
That’s all I’m saying, though I have a feeling it’s falling on deaf ears.

Still our views are very different. It may be beneficial for you to practice public speaking in a dream, but it won’t be beneficial if you think ‘That’s not real, so there&#39;s nothing to be scared of’.[/b]

I know several people, including public speaking instructors, that suggest practicing in front of a mirror. I would think that is even less helpful, yet it has been said many times that it gives good results. Now, if one could literally make an audience, I think that would prepare them even more for the real thing.

So, so far noone is interested in using dreams for other purposes but adventures in a virtual world? [/b]

I admit many people desire to entertain themselves, but not all are like this. Some do explore lucid dreaming as an avenue of science, for example. I am actually one of these people. The reason I came to lucid dreaming was not to amuse myself, but find a method to achieve my hypothesis. I think that lucid dreaming will be my route to success on this. Unfortunately, I have limited control and few seem willing to carry out my experiment with me. The proof to this is two topics I made requesting experienced lucid dreamer&#39;s aid.

There are others like me. Others aren&#39;t even in it for the science. I know my sister would like to do it for certain historical aspects. She wants better insight on certain events. In my opinion, this is a legitimate reason and not "just for the hell of it".

I guess we all have to look for our own reason, if entertainment isn&#39;t good enough.

As Oneironaut has indicated, we participate in many activities in addition to our waking existence. These activities are not real, yet we still enjoy them. For these fictional things - which may or may not include that which one does in their lucid dreams - we activate the supension of disbelief. This is how we get involved in something that is clearly unreal. It is a concept of theatre and literature. Lucid dreaming, in its adventurous sense, holds a similar value.

I understand where you are coming from, but don&#39;t throw it away just because it holds little meaning in the real world. Though, like I mentioned above, some are looking at other methods to use it that are a little more meaningful.