Lucid Dreaming: Expanding Your Mind Or Hurting It?

[ivey]

I apologize if this has already been brought up, but I'm just posing a question I've been wondering about. In general, our minds seem to tend to not *want* us to LD. Do you think that this is because it's something that we're not actually "meant" to do? Or, as another possibility, do you think that LD is a way of evolving (if you believe in evolution)? Like, the next "big step" in the evolutionary chain? Many very religious people seem to think that it's somehow attributed to "satan" (Please, I'm not trying to start a religious thread, but I suppose if God/Satan do exist, it's always a possibility--although I doubt anyone *here* thinks that or they wouldn't be here. ) So what are your thoughts on this? Why do you feel that our minds don't really *want* us to LD (in general)? What are your thoughts on the hows and whys?

[krookedking]

well....maybe your subconscious (or your conscience....I'm not a psychanalyst ) doesn't want you to feel powerfull (which you can be in a LD) because you wouldn't be balanced....in a way that if you could do anything you wanted, it would be boring and dangerous for yourself... well....dunno if what I said was interesting.....to bad, it's posted

[wasup]

That's wrong, YOUR mind might not want you to LD. Lucid dreaming is a mindset. If you think your mind doesn't want to, then you won't lucid dream, thus increasing your thought that your mind doesn't want you to. If you realize that they are easy and anyone can do them, then you will have them and realize it has nothing to do with what your mind wants or not. By perpetuating this thought that your mind doesn't want you to LD, you are making it harder for yourself and people who believe that. You should realize that LDing is completely natural and your mind doesn't attempt to restrict you at all, the only "restrictions" that are put up are your own, such as the ones you put up when you make yourself believe your mind is keeping you from LDing.

[ivey]

That's wrong, YOUR mind might not want you to LD. Lucid dreaming is a mindset. If you think your mind doesn't want to, then you won't lucid dream, thus increasing your thought that your mind doesn't want you to. If you realize that they are easy and anyone can do them, then you will have them and realize it has nothing to do with what your mind wants or not. By perpetuating this thought that your mind doesn't want you to LD, you are making it harder for yourself and people who believe that. You should realize that LDing is completely natural and your mind doesn't attempt to restrict you at all, the only "restrictions" that are put up are your own, such as the ones you put up when you make yourself believe your mind is keeping you from LDing. [/b] ...Okay. I have lots of lucid dreams, all of the time. My point I guess is that it doesn't come naturally to everyone and I wondered why that is--I'm wondering what the consensus is as to why the general population doesn't at least "try to" LD in the ways that we do. I'm asking if LD is (by the standards of the DV crowd) a phenomenon that happens because we're more evolved, or more in tune with our psyche than most, or is it just coincidental or what?

[Marvo]

As far as I am concerned, by brain has not done any sort of attempt to stop me from LDing. Instead of blaming your brain for your low-skill in lucid-dreaming, it might actually be yourselfs. No offense, but lucid-dreaming requires discipline and practice. If you're not good at football you don't say "Oh, it's not me, it's my body that doesn't want me to play football" either.

[ivey]

Marvo, maybe you didn't read my previous post?

[Tsen]

Alright. First things first: "More evolved" is a fallacy. There's no such thing as "more evolved". And no, LD'ing isn't any sort of big leap evolution-wise, since having natural LD's doesn't in any way benefit survival or reproduction. Also, no, LD'ing is not harmful in any way. At all.

[Follower]

We probably were never meant to be able to LD. Dreams are needed for reducing stress, or at least there's a theory that they are, and our mind might resent our interruption of the process So I guess it would be close to the truth to say that extensive LDing is dangerous. Thankfully, it's too hard to master LDing to the point when it takes up too much sleep time and becomes dangerous. That some people think that LDing is given to us by satan is funny . I guess they think so only because it seems so unnatural to them, just like magic itself, which they attribute to satan. If you realize that they are easy and anyone can do them, then you will have them and realize it has nothing to do with what your mind wants or not.[/b] I believe the thread starter wanted to hear opinions on the topic of why we don't LD naturally, not why it's bad for easily impressed people to read her thread That's wrong, YOUR mind might not want you to LD.[/b] Let me ask you, does YOUR mind wants you to LD? Then why do you have normal dreams? It's so easy to LD that you can be lucid all the time, no matter what your mind wants or not... Why do you have to struggle to keep lucidity using hard techniques that are difficult to employ? Just think 'it's easy!', change your mindset accordingly, and you'll be able to turn all your normal dreams into lucid ones, thus thwarting your resisting mind!

[Tsen]

So I guess it would be close to the truth to say that extensive LDing is dangerous. Thankfully, it's too hard to master LDing to the point when it takes up too much sleep time and becomes dangerous.[/b] Uh...no it's not. It's impossible to LD "too much". That seems to stem from the myth that LD'ing will prevent you from obtaining restful sleep.

[Marvo]

Wasn't there when I wrote my reply, sorry. But really, do you think that gaining consciousness during the REM cycles is a step in evolution? I do not. From what we know, humans even did this 10'000 years ago. The reason that the ordinary population doesn't learn this skill, is typically because they either don't know about it, or they don't think it's worth it, or they don't understand it/won't accept it. Some people are close-minded and they think it's "unnormal" to lucid-dream, since they don't know anybody who does it. Some people don't do it, due to religious reasons, or because they think it's dangerous. Edit: To the "Why don't we LD all the time naturally" thing. Because there's no reason for that. Our unconscious does not desire stuff like lucid-dreaming, and we humans typically practice lucid-dreaming, since we want all the powers we get in the dreams.

[Conforming Non-Conformist]

I am not going into a religious topic here, just what you said about LD-ing being attributed to Satan made me think... I think LD-ing has been around for a lot longer than people may think and perhaps it always has. In religious scriptures you can read of the "visions" that prophets had and how they talked to god in such a vivid and real dream. All of you know how real LD's can be... and how to control them. Perhaps in the time of thousands of years ago, these heretics were having LD's but without the control being sought after, instead seeking only the realistic 'vision' that it provided them. This may have strengthened their convictions to such a degree that made god indeed exist and well.... edit---- oh and for our brains or mind not wanting us to LD. I partialy agree with Marvos example of a football player. I could say that my body does not want me to dance (because i really do suck at it) but that is only because i have not practiced. LD-ing to me, is not something that should be avoided for fear of negative consequences when even the full benefits of it cannot be fathomed yet.

[Follower]

It's impossible to LD "too much".[/b] You've already reached your limit? Congrats That seems to stem from the myth that LD'ing will prevent you from obtaining restful sleep.[/b] No, that's superficial. What I was talking about was brain and the proper amount of chemicals that it produces in state of REM sleep, and about reducing stress due to replaying worrisome situations and emotions during sleep in somewhat metaphorical form to take away their poignance. As for LDing being special or evolution, that seems a wishful thinking. LDing is used for fun at the moment, noone has benefited from it, made money from it, cured a disease (if you don't take into account articles from dubious sources). LDing is useless in practical sense

[Tsen]

Whatever. Short and simple--no, you can not, EVEN IN THEORY, hurt yourself by LD'ing "too much".

[Marvo]

Unless you eat a glass of sleeping pills, in order to sleep and thereby dreaming more. But then it's not lucid-dreaming killing you, but the desire for lucid-dreaming.

[Follower]

What's your proof that LDing too much can't hurt? I'd like to hear it, otherwise your self-assured claims aren't based on anything. I say 'extensive LDing can probably hurt, because... (named a couple of becauses)'. You say 'extensive LDing can't hurt, because... we just want to say so'?

[Moonbeam]

So what are your thoughts on this? Why do you feel that our minds don't really *want* us to LD (in general)? What are your thoughts on the hows and whys? [/b] Despite what others have said above on the subject, I know my a part of my mind doesn't want me to LD. They may say it is self-fulfilling, but I don't think that's true. I can trick it by introducing another technique. I've tried almost everything (I think&#33 and everything works--once or twice. Then it's as if my subconscious catches on to the new trick and adapts. I don't know why this is. I hope it's not because it's harmful, and I don't really think it is, but how do we know for sure? I haven't looked to see if there is any research on the subject, like an increase in mental illness or increased mortality in those that are successful lucid dreamers. Like I said, I seriously doubt it, that's why I keep trying, but who knows for sure? I doubt there are any good controlled prospective studies, or even anything more than just anecdotal. Of course it's surely been around as long as people had enough intellect to think about their dreams, and probably more prevalently in some cultures than others, so that to me is pretty good proof that I won't go insane from it. I mayybe be thought to be already insane by those around me, but that's a different subject.

[Dirtbiker_CRF]

LD is not unaturall because not everyone is born with it. Its like saying that being ambidextrous is unaturall. You can learn to use both hands, but not everbody is born with it. And if someone doesn't want to learn, that's their loss.

[BillyBob]

This is assuming that your question was: "why don't we lucid dream all the time". The reason we aren't all "naturals" is probably due to natural selection. Some natural selection examples: Lucid dreaming in no immediate physical way benefits the dreamer. If we lucid dreamed all night, every night (total control/consciousness of our dreaming situation) we would have almost no real life sex drive (thus we wouldn't reproduce) This is probably the biggest reason. An all night LDing prehistoric human would have slept way too much. This would probably lead to his death via wild animals. Many other pretty obvious reasons. If you really think about it, theres tons of reasons for someone who doesn't live in a safe/ non hostile environment to not LD. Also, as many people have already stated, humans that found themselves in safe living situations (monks in monasteries, holy men living in historic cities, etc.) have been known to lucid dream since the beginning of recorded history. Its nothing new at all. All in all, it would be pretty ignorant to assume that its "of the devil" or "unnatural". EDIT: Whoa, three people just posted in the same minute

[Moonbeam]

Also, no, LD'ing is not harmful in any way. At all. [/b] ^^^Proof? Two people got in there faster than I could add this! Anyway, again I don't think that LD is harmful, but have you actually seen any studies showing no harmful effects?

[BillyBob]

^^^Proof? Two people got in there faster than I could add this! Anyway, again I don't think that LD is harmful, but have you actually seen any studies showing no harmful effects? [/b] If it is harmful then its probably only on a psychological level (from being god for so long) I doubt it has any permanent adverse physical affects (if it does take away from your REM, it would just be like depriving yourself of sleep)

[Moonbeam]

The reason we aren't all "naturals" is probably due to natural selection. Some natural selection examples: [1] Lucid dreaming in no immediate physical way benefits the dreamer. [2] If we lucid dreamed all night, every night (total control/consciousness of our dreaming situation) we would have almost no real life sex drive (thus we wouldn't reproduce) This is probably the biggest reason. [3]An all night LDing prehistoric human would have slept way too much. This would probably lead to his death via wild animals. [4]Many other pretty obvious reasons. If you really think about it, theres tons of reasons for someone who doesn't live in a safe/ non hostile environment to not LD. [/b] 1) Traits can evolve which provide no immediate physical benefit--anything that confers reproductive success, even if it is actually a disadvantage in some situations (peacock's tail for example) can evolve. What if improves you in some mental way that could make you a more attractive partner? 2) I often dream about sex (well I used to) but that never decreased my sex drive IRL; if anything, it increased it. 3) I have heard (guy talking about sleep on public readio) that it is physically possible to sleep more than you need to. 4) I can't think of any. You have to sleep, so how is being aware that you are dreaming more dangerous than just being asleep? I don't necessarily think that LD has evolved independently of any other mental trait that we have. Who knows maybe cats and dogs can LD. I have often wondered what they must think about their dreams, if they really have recall. If it is harmful then its probably only on a psychological level (from being god for so long) I doubt it has any permanent adverse physical affects (if it does take away from your REM, it would just be like depriving yourself of sleep) [/b] Yea, I assume the harm would be psychological, if there were any. Maybe the slightly weird tends towards wanting to LD in the first place (no offense to any/all DV members I am including myself in this&#33.

[Tsen]

going to have to cut this short, I leave in a few minutes to see Pirates of Penzance. In short, LDing cannot harm you for the simple reason that it is only different from a normal dream in that you have a higher state of consciousness than is typical for a dream. It will NOT impede the amount of sleep you get, because it is EXACTLY the same as being asleep as per norm--your consciousness does not impair the restfulness of your sleep. A Lucid Dream may make you FEEL exhausted, but so can a normal dream, or more commonly a nightmare, and it is not an actual physical effect, only mental; somewhat along the lines of a placebo. Next, yes I suppose LD's could be harmful psychologically. But that is based on your choices in the dream, and what you choose to do with your lucid time. And yes, you could hurt yourself in the pursuit of an LD--but only if you do something stupid, like overdose on B6. BUT LD'ING ITSELF IS IN NO WAY HARMFUL--BECAUSE IT IS EXACTLY IDENTICAL TO A NORMAL DREAM.

[Adanac]

Or, as another possibility, do you think that LD is a way of evolving (if you believe in evolution)? Like, the next "big step" in the evolutionary chain? [/b] I think that this is a possibility. To me, it makes sense. If dreams are created by the SC, which I beleive they are, than Lucid Dreaming is a way to directly communicate with the inner workings of your mind. I think that anyone who discovers this ability, and feels that they should practice Lucid Dreaming, could be like natural selection. More so with someone who discovers it without any outside influance. (e.g. this site)

[Moonbeam]

BUT LD'ING ITSELF IS IN NO WAY HARMFUL--BECAUSE IT IS EXACTLY IDENTICAL TO A NORMAL DREAM. [/b] You haven't proven this. But since I don't disagree with you, only with the fact that we don't know this for sure, I will quit arguing.

[Tsen]

Back later. In short, I did explain: LD's are identical to normal dreams in their physical effects--So an LD can hurt you no more than a normal dream can.