So you don't find the whole "faith" thing a tad convenient then? :roll:Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmith65
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So you don't find the whole "faith" thing a tad convenient then? :roll:Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmith65
I assume you never had a OBE before?Quote:
Originally Posted by lvlindless
I almost did once.
I woke up one night in SP, i started lucid dreaming, woke up, lucid dream, ect.
Then i woke up one time, and i felt my spirit attempting to leave my body....
I was wide awake and not hallucinating. When you experience that for the first time, you will know its real :)
I still of course have not left my body, but one day, i'm not ready just yet. But it is real.
I expect you were fast asleep and having a convincing false awakening.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMoon
There is a good rule to use in life: the simplest answer is normally the right one.
Which requires less leaps of faith, assumptions, and revising of the basic laws of physics?
a) you were dreaming, a very vivid dream that you had woken up, then in the dream you dreamt you were leaving your body. (of course you could have been in sleep paralysis and entering the dreaming state)
b) there is a soul, that soul can exist independantly of the body (despite there being no evidence and it defying all laws of physics and biology) - AND that you just happened to have woken from a dream (coincidence??? - what with dreaming being a very convincing experience) and then "left your body"
Explanation (a) requires no new laws of physics and fits perfectly into what we know about the universe.
Explanation (b) requires rewriting almost all the major sciences.
What is more likely?
Hundreds of years of human science being wrong (the same science that you daily use, for your phone, television, car, even talking here online)
Or you incorrectly assuming you were awake.
?
It's a little arrogant to think "the whole world is wrong and i'm right."
Remember that being convinced by something don't make it true.
Just ask any person who has suffered extreme mental illness.
Not to mention, the whole area of lucid dreaming is about learning to understand that how real something feels has no actual standing on how real something is. That's why we do reality checks.
No i was awake, i know the difference between a false awaking and being awake.Quote:
Originally Posted by spaceexplorer
Ive been having lucid dreams and false awakenings my whole life.
I was awake in the real world and felt my spirit leaving my body.
You of course don't have to believe me, but anyone who has had a OBE will know this to be true :)
Another thing, when your in a False Awaking, you think your really awake in real life at that time. However, when you wake up you realize that it was just a FA....
If it was just a FA i had, i would not be talking in this thread right now.
Well we shouldn't keep going on believing in a false reality just because we don't want to rewrite the science books to express the truth rather then false facts.Quote:
Explanation (b) requires rewriting almost all the major sciences.
It doesn't matter either way if i'm wrong or right, the worlds still turning, and one day we will all be dead. So its better now to learn about whats going to happen when we die, then to live in ignorance and never learn what may be, until its too late to learn anymore.Quote:
It's a little arrogant to think "the whole world is wrong and i'm right."
Ignorance is bliss, until the box you put yourself in falls apart, and your not ready to accept what is really true and what really is not true.
I don't know for a fact if we have spirits or not. But i feel its ignorant to think that's its not a possibility. And to dismiss what everyone says just because you don't want the box you built around yourself to fall down :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMoon
How rude of you to assume i dismiss what everyone says, or that i am "in a box"
Actually i'd give anything for such things to be true.
HOWEVER. I want the way i see the world to be based on facts and truth.
If something i want to believe in turns out to be false, im willing to move on and let it go, not to try and make the world fit my view.
I am 40 years old. For my whole life i've studied these sorts of things.
I have yet once to have found anything that even comes close to evidence of these things being true.
Yes there are plenty of stories.
But almost all of them fall apart when you scratch the surface.
I'd rather live in a world of reality than a world of fantasy, that's why i keep asking questions, i want to get to the bottom of it.
If there is another realm beyond death, then brilliant i'll be the happiest person alive. I will not however, accept dodgey facts, or just "faith"
If there were some kind of OBE experience, why do we not see it in the natural world?
Wouldn't it be a massive evolutionary advantage for a hunter or prey to be able to astral travel and see where its prey is before it hunts?
Everything else in nature that has a use has been taken advantage of by evolution. Yet i dont see any psychic lions.
Oddly enough. What you don't know is that i have had a full scale OBE in my life (back when i was 25).
It wasnt just waking up from a dream. It occured during surgery gone wrong (car crash), and i was actually clinically dead for about a minute.
Utterly convincing in every respect. However when i double checked things i'd "seen" out of the body. I discovered they were false
So don't try and tell me that just by having an experience it'll convince you.
It felt utterly real, I belived it to be true. However i took the time to investigate it, and the facts didn't hold up. I had to rethink what had happened to me.
I still don't have an answer, but im more convinced it was some kind of mental phenomena. After all where do you think you experience "waking life" anyway? it's all just processed in your mind. The convincing reality you are seeing right now, is actually your minds model of it.
Also, later in life i experienced a chemical used by shamans in the amazons, which gave me an identical experience to my out of body experience. Again completely convincing. I do wonder how a chemical can effect the "soul" i know for sure it effects the processing of the mind.
So don't assume im closed minded just because i don't agree with you.
In fact im very open minded. I just rather that i dont fool myself by wishful thinking, and come away with solid hard facts. So that i can prove things to others. Not on faith, but on blatant facts. I've yet to find anythign that comes close.
I'm sorry. but no controlled experiment is proof that either OBEs or NDEs arent real
for one, you are bound to get people who claim to be having OBEs as subjects, who might be ingnorant as to what a lucid dream is
two, real NDErs aren't found in experiments, THEY ARE FOUND IN HOSPITALS. what really bothers me about people so bent on proving NDEs don't happen, is they refuse to look at the testimony of NDEs as a whole
1. many NDErs WITNESS their own operation or their death bed. they see their bodies, and they see the doctors desperately trying to save their life. and they are able to later verify this by telling the doctors things they did. like if the doctor swore.
2. many NDErs have witnessed, as well as OBErs events happening in ANOTHER ROOM that is later verified to be true
3. many NDErs, also have a life changing experience. a positive life changing experience, and its disgusting that people are out there to prove that their positive life changing experience is invalid just because they are too afraid to consider there is actually more to life
its not like NDE has you convert to christianity. a good portion of NDEs actually GO AGAINST CHRISTIANITY. The God in NDE never sends anyone to hell, and even atheists and homosexuals in NDEs have experienced 'heaven'. This has the church in an upheavel, with messages that all NDEs where a loving spirit of light tells you "no one is being sent to hell" is actually Satan!!
we should be rejoicing, because NDEs happen more and more often, and the more often they happen, the more people question christian dogma.
no current scientific investigation to try to disprove NDE looks at all the experiences. instead they pick and choose "well, were going to ignore the testimony of seeing real time events outside the body and just focus on the tunnel vision"
thats horse crap. thats not science. you can't decide to leave out HUGE phenomenon related to NDEs just to feel you have a grasp on reality.
Are we not part of the natural world? Maybe not.. i thought i was...Quote:
If there were some kind of OBE experience, why do we not see it in the natural world?
Wouldn't it be a massive evolutionary advantage for a hunter or prey to be able to astral travel and see where its prey is before it hunts?
Everything else in nature that has a use has been taken advantage of by evolution. Yet i dont see any psychic lions.
Yes it would be a advantage, and that's why our minds our "Evolving" to use this. Maybe being able to use psychic power's means gaining knowledge about what your trying to use first.
No creature in all of the history of earth has had our level of intelligence to recognize these types of things...
Your Sub Conscious is not just going to leave your body after the first minute of death, specifically if it knows that it has doctors around it trying to bring the body back to life.Quote:
Oddly enough. What you don't know is that i have had a full scale OBE in my life (back when i was 25).
It wasnt just waking up from a dream. It occured during surgery gone wrong (car crash), and i was actually clinically dead for about a minute.
Our body's and minds work separately.
If our body dies, it doesn't mean you mind is dead as well. Maybe you had a "NDE", sure, and maybe it was just a lucid dream.
But your not the only one.... Ive been reading for years now study's about people having NDE's, coming back and telling the doctors stuff, the patient should not know.
My friend in fact, has had many many OBE's, when he comes back and starts talking to his dad or someone, and finds out that what he saw, really happened in real life.
The real question, Do you have enough proof to prove or disprove that we have a soul ? :)
Do you? Nope, no one does, other then those who have experienced OBE's first hand, came back and found out what they saw in there OBE, was true in real life.
Those are the only people here who can say for sure.
Youtube.....
Well if you seriously believe it that much.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMoon
Then go into the study of it, find evidence, prove it.
Not only would you change the world, put 6 billion people on the planet at peace, you'd also revolutionise science, almost certainly win every award under the sun, and never have to work again.
Or do you have something that is more important than that to do with your life? I can't think of anything.
I also wonder, what with there being so many intelligent, talented people on this planet, and the rewards for proving the existence of such a phenomena so great... then why arn't all the top scientists fighting tooth and nail to be the first to find evidence of such things?
Perhaps because they know that it's highly unlikely, everything we know about the world contradicts the possibility.
Seriously, think about it. If it were true, or if there were sufficent evidence to prove it were true, wouldn't the greatest minds on our planet be wanting to be the first to prove it?
Or are you going to tell me they are all too small minded?
Because even if they were, im sure there are more than enough people with the minds and greed to go after such a prize purely for financial gain.
So, why isn't this happening?
Lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by spaceexplorer
you have no idea what you are talking about, do you?Quote:
Originally Posted by spaceexplorer
I notice you didn't quote me. Do you have any sources that you can share? I really would like to read them. I may be highly skeptical but I'd still like to believe that it is possible and that AP exists, who doesn't?Quote:
Originally Posted by scubba
i seriously believe in OOBE when i found about lucid dreams and practiced becoming lucid i had an OOBE and ill never forget that night i still know each microsecond that happen it scared the shit out of me and was the weirdest experience ive ever had at the same time the best experience.
Oh i'm sorry are the long words confusing you?Quote:
Originally Posted by scubba
There are these thing people do when they are discussing a subject and don't agree...
One's called manners.
The second is either backing up yout statement with facts or sounds argument.
If you disagree with what i say, take my points and make a clear informed argument as to why you disagree.
This isn't kindergarden. If you've got facts and solid argument, please share them. I and a lot of the people leaning towards skepticism on this point would be more than happy to reevaluate our position if you can come up with something more convincing than poorly constructed childish one liners.
Of course we are part of the natural world (I never claimed otherwise).Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMoon
There is not a single case of a proven telepathic or psychic phenomena among humans or any other animal possessing skills that stands up to even the most simple scrutiny. If there was or had been, it would have been on the front page of every newspaper and magazine on the planet.
Bats do not understand Sonar or Aerodynamics, but they are masters of both.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMoon
My point is, nature will take ANY advantage how small and use it. Yet there are no examples of psychic animals (human or otherwise) yet there are examples of plenty of creatures that use technologys humans have only just started to master: sonar, electricity, magnetic fields etc etc.
So you're basically trying to tell me, that you're willing to believe an experience YOU had after waking up from a dream as genuine, but not that of someone who actually got far closer to the death experience than yourself? Seriously, if you were reading this conversation as an outsider which would you consider a more convincing case?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMoon
No, No they don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMoon
The human organism is a holistic system. Each organ (including the brain) works dynamicaly with the whole system.
Other than the books in new age shops (of which you can find a book that will tell you virutally anything is possible) what sources do you have and do you mind sharing them please?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMoon
That's not the point. It falls in the hands of people making claims to PROVE thier point. Not everyone else to disprove them.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMoon
I could tell you there is an invisible elf that only i can see. I could ask you "Do you have enough proof to prove or disprove that the elf exists?"
See my point? It's not a valid argument.
Why should YOU have to disproove my invisible elf? Especially when i can find no convincing evidence to back up my claim.
Surely those who make wild claims are the ones responsible for proving them.
If you, I or anyone is going to make claims that contradict mountains of evidence and scientific knowledge, they better be able to back those claims up. Asking others to disprove them is passing the buck.
OBE's are real.
My spiritural dream guide Moonunit (she lives on mars) told me.
Science, science, science... she's a fickle master.
Just about everything I was taught in my schooldays as "scientific fact" has since been disproven by new scientists conducting new experiments.
There were 9 planets when I went to school... but alas, not any more. Oatmeal is good for you, oatmeal is bad for you, oatmeal is good for you... scientists can't agree on anything, their experiments are constantly called into question as possibly being compromised or skewed in some fashion. I personally find science very unreliable.
I should hope that the "science conscious" among us aren't simply googling random scientific studies and considering them as fact.
I feel sorry for those who get locked into a scientific mindset. There is so much more to life, so much that can be experienced beyond our physical senses. Limiting oneself to only 5 senses and what one can perceive by them is such a boring and depressing existence, no wonder the negativity comes creeping in.
I grew up in a medical family; my dad watched people die everyday. Some of them did come back, and they had very interesting things to tell upon their returns. After decades of learning and coming to understand how people die, I think it would be foolishness to deny that there is something beyond this mere tragically unhappy, physical life.
Thats the beauty of science though, it's a true open mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by WaaayOutThere
If you learn that you are wrong, you move on and work with the facts that make more sense in the world.
I'd rather think like that than in some dogmatic way that dosn't adapt to new evidence.
There is nothing boring about science.
With it we've seen out into the far reaches of space,
sent robots to explore new worlds, sent men to the moon.
Been able to see our home planet from afar.
Unlocked the mysterys of the past.
Grown to understand the workings of our minds and bodies and the environment we live in.
Looked back in time to the beggining of the universe.
Connected billions of people worldwide through communications.
Improved the health of the human race.
I could go on and on.
Just one of the many things we've learnt through science, is that there are more stars in our universe, than there are grains of sand on the entire planet!
If that dosn't make you feel in awe of the universe, i dont know what will.
As far as I'm concerned, every weird or paranormal happening can be
explained by LDs or SP. Alien abduction, ghosts, OOBE all of that. When
I was little I saw an apparition fly through my bedroom wall and out through
the other wall. It scared the crap out of me at the time! The next day I put
it down to a very weird real dream, because even when I was small, I
tended to look at things logically. I know now that I saw this apparition
during a SP episode. If I'd known what it was then, I could have projected
my body out of my real body and started a lucid dream. I always project
my (dream body) out of my real body when I begin a lucid dream. It feels
so real, as if my spirit is leaving my body, that I even did a few experiments
to make sure they were not....a long long time ago. I start from my bed
and I can look and see my real body still lying there. I'm always in my
bedroom and in my house. I challenge all people who believe they are
really having a true OOBE to look around carefully. Things are a little off.
Maybe no curtains on the windows where there should be some, color
scheme can be off, things are not where they should be. And heres
something else I've wondered about people who believe in OOB. When
you are experiencing them, can you do whatever you want to?? Like, can
you make it rain, or can you morph?? That right there is proof enough for
me that it is a lucid dream. Anyway, next time, take a very careful look
around.
makes complete sense to me!Quote:
Originally Posted by scubba
oh and one more thing as well. Once the brain has lost all brainwave
activity......you are irreversibly brain dead. There is no coming back
from this with your mind intact! If your heart is restarted after brain
activity has stopped, then you will be on life support and brain dead.
Every account I have ever read of someone saying a person came
back to their normal selves after loss of brainwave activity has been
disproved. After the heart stops, you have ten minutes to come
back before you are brain dead.....unless someone is giving you
oxygen to keep the brain alive.
I didn't say that science was boring... I said that limiting oneself in one's experience of this world is boring.Quote:
Originally Posted by spaceexplorer
I agree completely that outer space and other worlds are quite fascinating.
I don't believe that science has truly explained our beginnings though. Scientists are still arguing about that as well as the past. Just as they are still arguing over quantum physics. It's kind of fun to listen to scientists argue over quatum physics... they get so deep and yet end up nowhere.
There are things that are more believable without my actually seeing orQuote:
Originally Posted by WaaayOutThere
experiencing it for myself. The tenth planet 'is there' so anyone can
look at it. We haven't discovered everything yet! There are hundreds
of diseases we cant cure yet. What can cause cancer? We don't know
everything about it yet, but we do know some things. Scientists proved
that smoking can cause lung cancer. Experiments are constantly being
done to bring us closer to that knowledge....thankfully! Men walked on
the moon?? I believe it, we have film footage of it. Some ppl don't believe
it though! I haven't gone up to the moon so I can't say that I know it's
true for a fact, but I believe it nevertheless. Some things are easier to
believe than other things without personally experiencing it. Anything
paranormal is a very, very hard thing for me to swallow! I need to see it
or experience it for myself, or I just can't believe it.
I think its shoddy as well! lol In a lucid dream, I know I can remember toQuote:
Originally Posted by BillyBob
do eye sequences for someone to watch. But I believe they wont see it
tho. In a lucid dream my eyes are open. They wont see that either because
I know that in reality my eyes are closed, because I have woken up with
my eyes still closed and knew that I was just seeing with them closed. We
know that if we clap when we are lucid dreaming, we aren't really clapping,
so I wouldnt think the remembered eye sequences would be detected
either....right? :?
I can't think of any way that I can prove I'm having a lucid dream. I know
they are real and so that's all I need to know. I have proved to myself
that my OOBEs aren't real, and that's all I need to know about them as well.
Someone!! Anyone!! Who can have true OOBEs should be able to prove that
to me personally though! You are a spirit that has left your body right?
Can't you come me and do something to me, at a time that we've discussed?
Or can't you actually touch and move things? I mean even ghosts can
move things apparently, if you believe in poltergeists. Hell.....maybe all the
ghosts ppl are seeing, are really all you ppl who say they have true OOBEs,
flying around outside your bodies!
ok people. 1) if you never had an Obe or ever attempted to have an OBE how the hell can you determine the likelyness or existince of it? 2) your so called "proof" offers nothing to the table, thats not proof, if you want some proof learn how to do it then stare at your body as you float above it, i know LDing cuz i've been doing it for years and i know the difference between being fully weightless vs being in a dreamy haze. 3) you non believers, are all being force fed all this capitalist dogma and propaganda, and false Science, Science has been wrong before dumbasses. 4) and to all the believers you got nothing to prove to these people, let them be ignorant to their own nature. "We should judge through our eyes not the eyes of others" thats something they should do. So go on with your lifes because this topic is dead.