Frederik van Eeden

[pj]

Has anybody here (besides Moonbeam, who tipped me off on this) ever read this paper by Frederik van Eeden? http://www.lucidity.com/vanEeden.html The whole thing is absolutely fascinating, but if you want to skip to the real good stuff just jump ahead to the seventh kind of dream and read from there. Most of this is so in line with my odd experiences with DCs that it is absolutely eerie. I've never had what he describes as the "demon dreams" or eighth kind, but we all know the ninth - FAs. This just blows me away. van Eeden is apparently the one who first used the term "lucid dreaming".

[dreamscaper22]

pretty interesting, like the part where he talks about the transition from the feeling of laying on his stomach, to laying on his back

[Redrivertears]

I've read it, multiple times. I'm surprised Van Eeden isn't mentioned more on this forum, though I guess he's simply not that famous overseas. And yes, Van Eeden is the person who coined the term "Lucid dream". It is a very personal document, a very good example of what 'exploring your own dreams' is all about. -Redrivertears-

[pj]

Did he ever do the larger body of work he references at the beginning of this paper? I know he published the fictional work.

[Redrivertears]

Hey there, Not sure. I know he made something called "Droomboek", which translated from dutch means "Dreambook", but I never managed to find it. Van Eeden was a bit of everything, a scientist, an psychiater, a writer and even a poët. Some of his poëtry is actually quite famous in the Netherlands/Germany/Belgium. I learned about him when I was a child at school and knew him as a poët, so I was quite surprised to find out later that Van Eeden had written about lucid dreams as well. But I think not all of his works were published. He died before his time (If memory serves me correct he suffered due to some depression or wasting disease later in life). -Redrivertears-

[pj]

Thank you. The Dream Bride is available on Project Gutenberg, here in the States anyway. I see it is there in Dutch as well.

[Moonbeam]

Has anybody here (besides Moonbeam, who tipped me off on this) ever read this paper by Frederik van Eeden? Three and Four recommended it to me. I like his description of "thought-dreams" too (6th type I think); I have those a lot.

[Thylacoleo]

Most of this is so in line with my odd experiences with DCs that it is absolutely eerie. I've never had what he describes as the "demon dreams" or eighth kind, but we all know the ninth - FAs. The dreams of the Eeden's ninth type are not your average false awakenings. Eeden specifically mentions this. Also Patricia Garfield writes similar account of two types of FA - the second type being this uncanny, demonical kind. Also she describes it as being very rare. I personally don't remember any "type 9" dreams. -Tl

[dreamscaper22]

huh...ill have to go find that book

[Vex Kitten]

That all is really interesting. I'll have to go back and re read that when I've got the time to actually relax and digest the piece. I believe I've had the 9th type dreams. I've false awakened in my room and then realized i'm still dreaming when some oppressive force (demon) is there with me, usualy from the direction of my bedroom closet. I haven't seen it the thing but have heard it breathing and felt if nearing. But these dreams are dark as my room is normally dark when I intend to LD. The last time I felt and heard that presence I broke out of an in dream sleep paralysis and then started swinging wildly and yelling loudly that I was going to kill it when I caught it. I eventually woke up from that dream, not sure if I was actually awake or not, and turned to the closet and growled into it, "Stay the fuck out of my dreams." I was awake that time for real though. That whole experience was confusing and kind of scary because it was a series of short LDs and FAs. I can honestly say I don't want another of those.

[three and four]

Hi PJ! I finished reading van Eeden’s “The Bride of Dreams” recently. My copy is about 200 pages long and is NOT an easy read (although Moonbeam seems to be getting through it ok! ) The main character talks about his youth and relationship with his parents, his town, etc for about 80 pages before anything about dreaming is mentioned. When he does talk about his dreams the book does however become very interesting. I’m guessing, but the book might only be autobiographical when the main character finally starts talking about his dreams. I wanted to read it because van Eeden was the person who actually coined the term “Lucid Dreaming” (as stated above), and LaBerge mentions him quite a bit. However, strictly speaking, only perhaps 10% of the book is of immediate interest to LDs, and people might be put off by the somewhat heavy style. It’s very interesting to look at how he deals with his “Dream Demons”. His lucids would often alternate between highly pleasurable flying about above beautiful landscapes, and far darker dreams where he would face hideous demons. His approach would be to attack them – whipping them into submission. However, it would seem he never really got rid of them, and continued to be haunted by this type of dream for a very long time. I’m currently reading Patricia Garfield’s “Creative Dreaming” in which she discusses the two approaches in dealing with such menacing characters: either attack, kill, subdue them, or somehow make peace with them, recognize them as a part of yourself, and send them love. The debate seems to be open concerning which approach works best. Personally I have found that the second option is by far the most effective (I started a thread called “Defeating a Demon” a while back). As van Eeden is one of the “Founding Fathers” of LDs, his book is of course definitely worth reading, although most people might want to skip directly to chapter XII to read about dreams. Right now I’m trying to get hold of “Dreams and how to control them” (that’s pretty much what it’s called in French) by a 19th century Frenchman called H. de Saint-Denys. Apparently he was writing about lucids even before van Eeden.

[Thylacoleo]

I've started reading "The Bride Of Dreams" yesterday and I can confirm the style is rather heavy and "ornate". Anyway, please share with us if you manage to find writings by Saint-Denys.

[pj]

Hi PJ! I finished reading van Eeden’s “The Bride of Dreams” recently. My copy is about 200 pages long and is NOT an easy read (although Moonbeam seems to be getting through it ok! ) I downloaded it from the Project Gutenberg, but haven't had the time to read it yet. Soon though! One of the things that floors me about all this is that I've had nearly identical experiences in my dreams, right down to how they respond when I take authority. Another thing is how he describes the same kinds of landscapes and experiences during lucidity that so many of us have experienced. It seems highly unlikely that stuff being generated by such disparate minds in such disparate times would match up so neatly. That begs a lot of deep questions.

[Estatica]

Quite Interesting if i do say so myself, ive never seen this much work on dreaming before by one person and go into so much detail

[dodobird]

Whats with the: "alcohol causes visions of small white animals." ?? Thanks for the link, very interesting.

[Thylacoleo]

Whats with the: "alcohol causes visions of small white animals." ?? Thanks for the link, very interesting. Don't they say that drunk man sees white mice?

[dodobird]

Don't they say that drunk man sees white mice? Never heard that. I bet Douglas Adams liked to drink.

[dreamscaper22]

ive had a 9th type once i didnt realize was asleep, i was in a FA and there was this white entity in the room...I just felt this paralyzing fear

[Thylacoleo]

I have finished reading van Eeden's "The Bride Of Dreams". I have to say that I am not very excited about the book. It really isn't book about dreams -- there's much less about dreams in the book than in the "A Study of Dreams" article, in which it is referenced. The book is really a biography of its main hero, italian count Muralto, from childhood to death, written by himself. I was wondering about how much autobiographic the whole thing is, but really there's no way to know. The part about dreams certainly is from author's own experience and includes his 'conscious dreams' - which he later called lucid dreams. The book is riddled with Muralto's philosphical wanderings, mostly about the society. I wonder whether these views are van Eeden's. I for one certainly found them less than appealing. My general recommendation is to skip this book unless you enjoy philosophical raving or you are studying in-depth about van Eeden. -Tl

[Thylacoleo]

BTW, on rereading I just realized that van Eeden's "initial" (or the "type-1") dreams are what we call today WILDs... -Tl

[Grod]

Never heard of the guy. Sweet link tho.

[awoke]

yeah, good read. thanks for posting this. something to chew on for a while.