Thread: why is it so hard to understand?

a lucid dream is any dream in which you know you are dreaming while you are dreaming. It doesn't matter if it wasn't vivid. It doesn't matter if its a dream inside a dream. it doesn't matter if you had so little control, you couldn't even control your own feet. If you knew you were dreaming, while you were dreaming, you were lucid dreaming.

Now why couldn't so many of these questions be answered? How can someone learn all about lucid dreaming on a lucid dreaming site without really knowing the definition? I just don't get it. the definition is right on the main page!

I feel you, I really do.

No, you're wrong. You have to be IN CONTROL to have a lucid dream.

[/sarcasm]

If things were truly that simple, it'd save us a lot of debate (ofcourse, it'd make things a lot less interesting too).

However, it isn't...

Lets take a look at your definition, shall we?

"a lucid dream is any dream in which you know you are dreaming while you are dreaming."

That sounds fairly clear at first sight, but any study of this definition will tell you it is anything but. Lets look at the two key elements.

Knowledge

Dreaming

So, in order to understand what lucid dreaming is, I have to understand first what 'knowledge' is, and what 'dreaming' is. And that's where the problems start. Try and define knowledge. Try and define dreaming.

Maybe you can. I sure can't. So I decided to call in some help! Dictionaries:



KNOWLEDGE: Knowledge is defined (Oxford English Dictionary) variously as (i) expertise, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject, (ii) what is known in a particular field or in total; facts and information or (iii) awareness or familiarity gained by experience of a fact or situation. Philosophical debates in general start with Plato's formulation of knowledge as "justified true belief". There is however no single agreed definition of knowledge presently, nor any prospect of one, and there remain numerous competing theories.

Ooops!



So in all actually one of the key elements in our definition is already under contention.

Maybe we'll have more luck with the second element. Once more, I called in the experts:



DREAMING: Neurology of Dreams: There is no universally agreed biological definition of dreaming. General observation shows that dreams are strongly associated with Rapid eye movement (REM) sleep, during which an electroencephalogram shows brain activity to be most like wakefulness. Participant-remembered dreams during non-REM sleep are normally more mundane in comparison.[1] During a typical lifespan, a human spends a total of about six years dreaming[2] (which is about 2 hours each night[3]). It is unknown where in the brain dreams originate, if there is a single origin for dreams or if multiple portions of the brain are involved, or the purpose of dreaming is for the body or mind.

Ooops again!



Seems like our second key element in that defintion, is in fact anything but clear as well.

So a lucid dream (?) is a dream (?!!) in which we know (?!!!) that we are dreaming (?!!!!)


Yes, that is very clear indeed... hmm...

Now to those of you who just sort of dabble along in dreaming, try some techniques, have some fun, it doesn't matter. The completely unclear definition will in fact give you enough of a general idea to get along. But if you decide to go seriously investigate your dreams, you will very quickly come to the conclusion that our conventional definitions are just completely inadequate to describe the full range of lucid experiences one can have.

-Redrivertears-

what about the definition of know? isnt it to have an understanding of something?
so it would be "a lucid dream is a dream in which we have an understanding that we are dreaming while we are dreaming" or if that doesnt work then we could always put "a lucid dream is a dream that we are concsiously aware of the fact that we are dreaming, while we are dreaming."

but thats besides the point. although we can't define knowledge and dreaming, we still understand what they mean. i dont know anyone that doesnt know what dreaming or knowledge is. if people would just take 5 min. to think about the dream and the definition of a lucid dream, then they would be able to figure it out. The problem is that people don't look up the actual definition.

Originally Posted by freefire

but thats besides the point. although we can't define knowledge and dreaming, we still understand what they mean.

No we don't. We really don't. We have a vague general conception of what they mean, which is all very well and good in normal situations, but once you start pushing the line, skirting the edge, its just not that simple.

The issues of knowledge, awareness, consciousness, and dreaming have been the subject of debate and argument since before the time of the Ancient Greeks. It's been a constant ideological clash in history, on philosophical, psychological, medicinal, moral, etical, religious, spiritual and theoretical level for well over 2000 years.

And you claim we know what they mean?

Take your original definition again. A lucid dream is a dream in which we know we are dreaming.

Fine, then I put to you that all our dreams are lucid dreams. Why? Our bodies go through a lot of changes while we sleep and dream. Our brains react, or physiology adapts. That coud imply knowledge on a biological level. Not conscious knowledge, certainly, but who says all knowledge has to be conscious. In fact, pointing back to the dictionary defintion of knowledge, note that it says "theoretical or practical understanding of the subject.". Certainly, the physiological changes our bodies go through during the various dream cycles are just that... practical.

Sure, from a distance, it all looks very clear and well cut, but once you look up close, you begin to see the cracks in the foundation.

-Redrivertears-

Originally Posted by freefire

a lucid dream is any dream in which you know you are dreaming while you are dreaming. It doesn't matter if it wasn't vivid. It doesn't matter if its a dream inside a dream. it doesn't matter if you had so little control, you couldn't even control your own feet. If you knew you were dreaming, while you were dreaming, you were lucid dreaming.

Now why couldn't so many of these questions be answered? How can someone learn all about lucid dreaming on a lucid dreaming site without really knowing the definition? I just don't get it. the definition is right on the main page!

thats the whole point!

Originally Posted by b12

No, you're wrong. You have to be IN CONTROL to have a lucid dream.

[/sarcasm]

we dont need to control a whole world, to say that we are living..
we dont need to control whole dream to say that we are lucid in dream..

knowing, understanding that we living, or in dream, that we are dreaming is enough...
else is just in degrees..