Go stick your head back up your <SNIP>Quote:
Originally Posted by Überschall
Aaaaaah.. that feels better.
Printable View
Go stick your head back up your <SNIP>Quote:
Originally Posted by Überschall
Aaaaaah.. that feels better.
What the hell are you trying to achieve? What the fuck is your goal, insulting not my arguments (which I put down anyway), my opinion, my belief, but rather me? What do you seriousely try to gain from this? Are you such a close minded prick that you really have to not accept my settlement of terms by individualizing it onto me but rather go on and insult me?Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneiro
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamerik
It may make you more "pacifistic" in real life, which could be good or bad depending on the circumstances. The point is that it changes/alters you one way or another IRL each time...
To Ueberscheisse - Look here. <SNIP> you come in here, expounding on arguments about which you know nothing.. (LD count -2).. and you expect to get away with it scot free? And then you start swearing? And you expect to get no flak back? Who the hell do you think you are? You are a poxy little kid who knows empirically nothing, and yet who feels qualified to make sweeping statements about that which you know empirically nothing? <SNIP>
You're really making a great point. Yeah, by harshly insulting me, you're really making a great great point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneiro
What this debate here is about is, looked at from some other point of view, a more general one, the bleeding from dream events into your "waking" psyche. It doesn't have anything in particular to do with Lucid Dreaming especial, and especially not with my Lucid Dreaming experiences.
Apart from that, two LDs ARE experiences. If I had no lucid dreams at all, I would understand your point, but I had two, the second one being long and very damn vivid and I saw people dying and I am not psychologically affected.
Your psyche makes all the dream scenario up and makes it all the way it wants it to be - it would be totally senseless if it was to make something up that harms itself. You wouldn't lay out nails in front of you just to walk over right after, would you?
Again, it's not like there's any scientific proof for this and I don't insist that there is, but from my belief of logic and sense in this subconscious affair, this is the most logical solution.
Now I said that and you come, putting me and my opinion down because I'm "not long at it" and a "stupid kid"? What do you expect? Wouldn't you get mad if you air your opinion and some obvious idiot comes running on and puts it down because of irellevant relations?
Cool down guys! Please!
I started this thread, with no bad intentions,... I apologize if I set off some kind of dispute.
We all have our own views and valid perspectives.
It's not you who set of the dispute and I know you had no bad intentions, no need to apologize. I agree with your point that we all have our own views and I respect your opinion about possible harm occuring from dreams as there's no black or white in this. There is hardly any proof for either side and I'm fine with that. I'm just not fine with someone disrespecting my view because of some illiterate bullshit.
Ok, now it's obvious that you're not Oneironaut. Your names are way too similar for my comfort, meh. Also, are you trying to make a point, have you been arguing with ad hominems in your dreams and demonstrating that it leaked over? Or are you just being argumentative?
Up yours Sgeo.. go back and read the thread and see who started off swearing.. and I stand by my original point - someone who has just two LDs has no right to make such sweeping statements as that kid has..
Guess why I started swearing? Because you're putting down my opinion all the time, calling out stupid shit that is irrelevant. I'm not gonna repeat my wall of text which you won't read anyway and in which I stated everything that is essential to my opinion and all my expressions in this thread.
BOTH OF YOU!
Stop insulting eachother.
If you want to, you can insult eachother's opinions, as long as you explain WHY you believe that opinion is wrong.
But please, NOT eachother.
I'm not insulting him. At no place I insulted him, I was always going onto his claims of me not knowing anything because I'm "a kid". And on his behaviour putting me down.
Also, I don't want to insult anyone's opinion in here. It's an opinion based thing and I'm not expecting anyone to share mine, suddenly, someone comes from behind and yells at me for stating my belief in this.
WHAT!?!? Link plz.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grunkie7
WOW! Dang!
You folks are about to trigger me into "super lucidity" right now! :D LOL
Cool!
THANKS! :boogie:
Newtonian mechanics are irrelevant in a world where the laws of physics mean nothing.Quote:
"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."
This sounds like an attempt to come across as intelligent and knowledgeable, but instead you spout scientific facts in the wrong context.
Your argument is based on a fallacy that people will act out fantasies in the real world. Many of us are healthy rational people who are more than capable of doing stuff that would be considered unethical in a fictional world of your imagination, but would refuse point blank to take these actions in the waking world.
The difference between the two is that no one gets hurt in the dream world (and there are no real life consequences), whereas this is not the same in the real world.
Let's say you kill someone in a lucid dream. Why is this no different from killing a fictional character in a video game? Aside from that a LD might be more realistic, there is not really much difference between the two.
In spite of many attempts to do so, there is no evidence that violent games, films, music, pictures, or any other form of media cause rational beings who can understand fact and fiction, to go out and commit such acts. Those that do such acts are found to have some form of mental illness.
Furthermore, it might well be that allowing people to act out fantasies in a safe setting is actually better. In the same way that the propagation of online pornography was shown to reduce the amount of rapes, it is not inconceivable that violent media may allow people that would tend towards these kinds of crimes to act them out in a safe setting. In this regard, lucid dreaming is just another means to do so.
This is all simply speculation. I'm not saying that concerns aren't justified, but seeing as we barely know about the processes that make up dreaming, and there is documented evidence of the many positive effects, and no evidence of negative side effects, to keep insisting that LD is dangerous is irresponsible.Quote:
I believe that dreams and dream content serve natural biological and psychological functions designed to help keep us healthy, happy and solve problems. If we force lucid dreams unnaturally or make too much effort to control or sustain them, could we be interfering with the natural purposes?
Is our subconscious always in control for a reason? Doesn’t it already know how many lucid dreams, the intensity, duration, type of content, amount of control, when we are ready, how much we can handle and what we need,… when and why? Do lucid dreams start AND end for a reason? Are lucid dreams essentially unnatural?
The only dangers are if the individual becomes addicted to lucid dreaming and desires to escape reality constantly, or if the individual is unable to distinguish fact from fiction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgeo
lol who are you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgeo
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=14205Quote:
Originally Posted by Elis D.
--
Word, thanks.
The only potential danger is that it may affect Ur perception of reality. But that's really subjective....it depends on Ur grip on reality as a person. If Ur easily influenced into believeing that reality may not be real and that U may be living in a dream like environment then it may become dangerous as Ur subconcious will believe that as a fact and behave funnily as in U'lll feel as though everything around U isn't real and U go into zoned out mode...:P. But even if it happens..it can be rectified. Just stop lucid dreaming for a while and 'engage' back into reality...:).Quote:
Originally Posted by Who I Am
IMJ
I'm pretty sure communists aren't the targeted audience for the YMCA...
Out of curiosity, Who I Am, do you feel the same way about violent video games?
Thanks for bringing this up :) I've just been reading this thread and was thinking about video games/movies/other media the whole time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Khrysothemis
I won't say immoral actions in LDs can't have an effect on our psyche or our real world actions, but I do think it depends on the person and how grounded they are. Some people are very impressionable or have a blured line between reality and fantasy, or they simple have a mental disorder. For these people I think it very well could and probably would have a negative effect on them.
But for most people, the line between fantasy and reality is very solid. I also think this solid boundary allows us to vent some of our negative feelings in a fantasy environment. So for these mentally balanced people, I think performing any violent tendencies and such in dreams can actually be beneficial, as it decreases the urge to do them in the real world. At least I know it does for me. I've had LDs where I've summon up people I'm angry with in the real world and then deliberately injured them. Because it makes me feel better without doing such a thing in reality and I understand that key difference.
Same thing with Video Games or Movies. I watch a lot of violent movies and play a lot of violent games. I enjoy it, it appeals to the violent creature hidden within me. If I didn't do these things, I think I could have become a much more violent person that I am. And I am not a violent person, at all. I've never been in a fight or hurt someone physically.
Whether or not having LDs interferes with some function of the brain and does damage that way, I don't know. But I think even if it did, we have so few LDs compared to regular dreams that I think anything we're missing during LDs would surely be made up for in regular dreams.
I think everyone is different. Some folks may have nothing to be concerned about with this "side topic", others may. Some of us may be walking a much finer line...or already be mentally ill or psychologically impaired.
I do think lucid dreaming is much different than normal dreaming, watching TV, or playing a video game. In any dream, sleep paralysis kicks in for a reason. As we are sleeping the brain is sending signals to our body to act out the actions in our dream, but the paralysis stops it. In this scenario, the brain doesn't make the distinction between dreaming and being awake. To the brain it all seems real, or like a real experience. In normal dreams the mind can work out it’s quirks. Lucid dreams are special.
I personally steer away even from movies, games and hobbies with violent content. I do it out of personal choice and out of concern for my own well being and those around me. I’ve had violent tendencies and problems with anger in the past, and have tried to adopt nothing but peaceful hobbies and recreation. I can tell you from my own experience it helps… a lot! What I feed my mind makes a big difference.
Since so many people seem to like this topic,
There are other possible dangers we can talk about...
"Dream guides" and possible dangers of schizophrenia and demonic possession, come to mind…
At any rate, I don't think we need to argue or take offense to any of it,... because it's probably not provable or disprovable either way. We each have a choice and can do whatever we feel is best. :)
However, I do think that being aware of "possible" dangers, is good, and I don't see how it can hurt... or hurt to talk about it.
... personal attacks are another matter, and I think,... in poor form.
... but not that I or anyone else, is above it.
As others have said, the possible dangers I see associated with lucid dreaming are an unhealthy desire to escape into this fantasy world.
On another note, it seems to me this whole argument between Überschall and Oneiro stemmed from the fact that one of them stated that lucid dreaming is safe for everyone since it's only fantasy and not reality, and the other seemed to have some sort of experience with people not drawing a strong enough line between the two.
Everyone is different, of course, but a clear line needs to be drawn between what happens in the fantasy world of lucid dreaming (and others, like videogames) and what happens in real life.
Everybody has a right to think about anything they want to, and if it's morbid or socially unacceptable, that doesn't make them abnormal. Joe Everyman has thoughts like that: "Man I could absolutely KILL my landlady right now." What counts is whether or not you act on them or not - whether or not you have the ability to distinguish between the two.
For the people who can't - I can see how pursuing socially unacceptable actions in lucid dreaming (and violent videogames) could possibly trigger these thoughts for them in real life. Understood. But this is not the normal case for most mentally stable people.
Many (most it seems) of us have absolutely no problem making a clear distinction between between the two, and we shouldn't be looked down for it either (not saying anybody in this thread has, as I think Oneiro just harshly took issue with Überschall's claim that all people should be able to distinguish between fantasy and reality).
P.S. This whole "post your lucid dream count in your sig" thing is a bit ridiculous, and I've seen it fuel more than a few sophomoric pissing contests, to be honest.
Well, I don't know, better that than a Ron Paul banner.Quote:
Originally Posted by AfterHours