What if we lose the ability?

As far as I can see, animals that dream are designed to forget them as a key survivial mechanism. This clearly comes from the days when we were too stupid to distinguish them from reality. I have confidence that plenty of mammals may be able to tell them apart too, but still, advanced as we are, it seems a miracle we can remember dreams at all if this is the case. LDing is an amazing thing, but unfortionately the majority of people don't see it this way.

Possibly over time, what if people were to completely lose the ability to LD? It's unlikely, but still possible. Seeing as few people care about it it's not hard to imagine the technique may be lost. As our minds advance (or not, it's probably going the other way), the ability to remember dreams or even be conscious in them could just fade away.

Scary thought? :eek:

If you are talking about the theory of evolution, it would supposedly take so many hundreds of generations for something like dreaming to be evolved past that it hardly matters to any of us. But it is an interesting concept. Though if you study the science of dreaming it is somewhat necessary and there is no real reason we would lose it.

If we will eventually lose dreaming, I don't think it will be due to evolution. I think it's more likely we'll lose dreaming because of someday our body will be so altered by the use of those artificial drugs (pills, etc.) we keep consuming more and more for any insignifcant reason. Maybe someday we'll take a drug that allows us to just rest for 4 hours a day, hence losing dreams... damn, I hope not!

Well, as nearly impossible as it is, I cant say it will never happen because who knows.. but to me it seems like it would be next to impossible, It would be such a "backwards evolution" that not being able to lucid dream would be the least of our worries, as a matter of fact that we probably wouldn't even be able to worry :P.

Lucid dreams are no different then regular dreaming, or imagination, or use of our senses.. the reason that we become lucid is because we become self aware or conscious, the brain is awake during "sleep", its the body that sleeps.. and becoming aware is pretty natural, we had become aware in "real life" at some point right?

I dont wanna turn this into an essay, but some believe intelligence is essentially prediction.

Becoming lucid in a dream is no different, you pretty much expect (or predict) your hands to look normal, your finger to not go through your palm, this is true of all reality checks obviously. When something goes wrong, you suddenly focus on it. In real life if I took away 1 or 2 steps from your staircase in your house, you would know. Not because you count them, because you simply expect there to be another stair once you get to the top. Becoming lucid is the same thing, you basically predict something to happen, it doesn't, and you just know. From there its almost like you give life to your dream body, and have control.. the same kind you do in real life. The difference is there are no physical laws. Its as if you become conscious or aware in a different frame of mind.

Maybe deep down, one day we will forget how to "become aware".. but I feel that it is a natural skill, and one that will only improve as we continue to progress. Being aware is essentially life, and I cant see anything that would affect that while asleep, seeing how the brain is active.

Makes me wonder, I wonder what Cave men dreamt about. :?

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Originally Posted by Jdeadevil

Makes me wonder, I wonder what Cave men dreamt about. :?

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Um...caves, hunting, animals, women. Cave men weren't exactly devoid of stimulus.

I sure wont be around when and if that happens :D

I doubt we'll lose the ability. Even if everyone else in the world somehow forgot about LDing, I wouldn't because I already (luckily) know the techniques. Although that woud be disappointing because I wouldn't be able to learn more.

I don't see how this could happen because every normal person can dream, and every normal person can lucid dream. If normal people reproduce, they are going to have kids that dream or lucid dream. It's like running. There could a potentially great runner that sits on his ass all day and gets fat, but chances are he'll have kids that make potentially great runners as well, and if they work at it they will be good runners. Of course, as people get lazier and naturally slow runners don't have any problem surviving in today's world people could get slower, but even that would take hundreds of years. And that wouldn't logically happen with dreaming since just about everyone dreams. And if everyone dreams, everyone that can understand what a dream is can become lucid.

Also, I believe people were lucid dreaming thousands of years ago. I read it on DV somewhere. It hasn't been mainstream... at all... but now people are doing it. Even if it gets "lost," it will be "found" again later.

Yeah, I think if we lose the capability to dream it will be because the government decides it's a threat to them.

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Originally Posted by Shady

In real life if I took away 1 or 2 steps from your staircase in your house, you would know. Not because you count them, because you simply expect there to be another stair once you get to the top. Becoming lucid is the same thing, you basically predict something to happen, it doesn't, and you just know.

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Excellent example Shady! In fact if you took off the top few stairs at my house I'd put my foot up, step into empty space, and fall flat on my face! If only dreams were that obvious! :roll:

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Originally Posted by Iliad Keys

Excellent example Shady! In fact if you took off the top few stairs at my house I'd put my foot up, step into empty space, and fall flat on my face! If only dreams were that obvious! :roll:

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I should hope not! Falling on my face hurts!

That is in interesting, but I guess the staircase thing is true. It's just so easy to distinguish lucidity from normal dreaming. In some ways I suppose you can control a dream when subconscious too by expecting something to happen. Unfortionately lucidity can trigger the climax of a nightmare in some and also wakes you up, so higher awareness definetly has some other effect on the dream itself.

Maybe if we were being controlled we would be forced to be less aware (China) and in a free world (USA) awareness would increase. This may have the same (or opposite? subconscious desires e.t.c) effect on our dreams.

I take back what I said about evolution though because natural selection could have no power over it. In fact I don't beleive natural selection exists anymore in humans (or is doing anything productive at least). Natural selection doesn't have the power to change a lot of things though, which confuses me. I don't see any other way "evolution" could occur but I do beleive it happens somehow. As far as dreaming is concerned though you're right, it's way more down to society and nurture factors.

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Originally Posted by Siиdяed

Um...caves, hunting, animals, women. Cave men weren't exactly devoid of stimulus.

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What's really crazy is to wonder if cave men ever dreamed about the same technologically advanced civilizations and architecture that a lot of us on here dream about!

Fighting, hunting, women... I bet the actors change, but the story was probably very similar to what modern man dreams of.

We ought to selectively breed naturals so that the human population lucid dreams every night! Of course my dad is a natural and I can barely LD. *sigh* It would be cool to know the ability to dream and LD is genetic or not.

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Originally Posted by Shift

We ought to selectively breed naturals so that the human population lucid dreams every night! Of course my dad is a natural and I can barely LD. *sigh* It would be cool to know the ability to dream and LD is genetic or not.

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Well, I'm still learning too, but from what I hear the more one practices LDing the more proficient one becomes. People that have been doing it for a long time tend to have them on a weekly basis! :boogie:

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Originally Posted by Iliad Keys

Well, I'm still learning too, but from what I hear the more one practices LDing the more proficient one becomes. People that have been doing it for a long time tend to have them on a weekly basis! :boogie:

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I've been trying for two years, while some people can have them overnight. So, I think it depends on the person.
Hence my question of whether or not it is genetic :tongue:
My dad said he learned to LD because of his nightmares as a child. When I was young and had nightmares, I would suffer through them and then kick my wall until one of my parents came to get me :tongue: bet he wishes I'd learned to LD! hahaha

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Originally Posted by Shift

*sigh* It would be cool to know the ability to dream and LD is genetic or not.

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I think it is largely genetic. The main argument is as to whether upbringing can influence it in any way, this way we could just teach rather than breed people! :). After all, knowing about lucid dreaming tends to increase your chances of having them anyway. I still wonder whether living a "free" existance would cause your mind to be more "free" in dreams or maybe even living a limited existance would cause your desire for freedom to show itself at night. This is completely relevant to society these days. I wonder whether it's Americans or Chinese who LD more?

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Originally Posted by Idolfan

I think it is largely genetic. The main argument is as to whether upbringing can influence it in any way, this way we could just teach rather than breed people! :). After all, knowing about lucid dreaming tends to increase your chances of having them anyway. I still wonder whether living a "free" existance would cause your mind to be more "free" in dreams or maybe even living a limited existance would cause your desire for freedom to show itself at night. This is completely relevant to society these days. I wonder whether it's Americans or Chinese who LD more?

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It would be interesting to do a survey of the entire globe, and making the connections between dominant religion (if any), economic status, type of government... I guess there are a lot of people from different countries on here, but they are predominantly English-speaking and obviously well enough off that they can use the internet :tongue:
Since I love animals, an even more exciting question to me is, do animals have lucid dreams?! Maybe not jellyfish, but what about orangutan and bonobos and chimpanzees? Now that would be cool to find out!

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Originally Posted by Shift

Fighting, hunting, women... I bet the actors change, but the story was probably very similar to what modern man dreams of.

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http://adweek.blogs.com/photos/uncat...ed/therapy.jpg
"I keep having the same dream. I'm being chased by a saber-toothed tiger. I try to throw a spear at it, but the spear breaks in half when I pick it up..."
:lol:

Anyway, not to derail the thread, but this topic begs a bigger question which has been on my mind for a while.

Is mankind as a species done evolving?
Has modern society made the process of natural selection obsolete?

Think about it. There are few ailments which modern medicine cannot cure - in time there may be none. Online dating allows even physically disfigured people to find mates. There are essentially no environmental pressures to serve as catalysts for evolution.

Some have pointed to the rising average height seen in many cultures in the past couple hundred years as evidence that we are evolving faster than ever. But this apparent surge in average height and overall size has leveled off - it appears to have been caused by environmental factors such as improved nutrition rather than genetic or evolutionary factors. It was not nature, but rather nurture.

Technology advances faster and faster. But is the human race destined for genetic stagnation? I guess we'll have to wait and see.

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Originally Posted by Idolfan

As far as I can see, animals that dream are designed to forget them as a key survivial mechanism. This clearly comes from the days when we were too stupid to distinguish them from reality. I have confidence that plenty of mammals may be able to tell them apart too, but still, advanced as we are, it seems a miracle we can remember dreams at all if this is the case. LDing is an amazing thing, but unfortionately the majority of people don't see it this way.

Possibly over time, what if people were to completely lose the ability to LD? It's unlikely, but still possible. Seeing as few people care about it it's not hard to imagine the technique may be lost. As our minds advance (or not, it's probably going the other way), the ability to remember dreams or even be conscious in them could just fade away.

Scary thought? :eek:

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When that happens I hope I'm not a human. I want to be a CAT! But IMO, it will happen but will be replaced by something even better than LDing. LDing will be considered primitive and like masturbation..:P.

IMJ

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Originally Posted by DuB

Anyway, not to derail the thread, but this topic begs a bigger question which has been on my mind for a while.

Is mankind as a species done evolving?
Has modern society made the process of natural selection obsolete?

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That depends on how you view evolution. I don't believe in evolution between species, but only within certain types. ie. breeding short haired dogs in a cold climate will eventually produce long haired dogs. This doesn't mean that they will ever turn into ostriches. And honestly, there are so many holes in the evolutionist theory that I tend to doubt the whole thing.

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Originally Posted by Iliad Keys

And honestly, there are so many holes in the evolutionist theory that I tend to doubt the whole thing.

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That is something that we can agree on.

However, if you would like to suppose for a minute that evolution theory is correct and perhaps share some of your views, I made a separate thread in Extended Discussion on this topic:
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...d.php?p=780892

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Originally Posted by DuB

http://adweek.blogs.com/photos/uncat...ed/therapy.jpg
"I keep having the same dream. I'm being chased by a saber-toothed tiger. I try to throw a spear at it, but the spear breaks in half when I pick it up..."

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as much as I despise those commercials... :chuckle:

I mean, the possibility that we might create technology so we require less sleep and are thus more efficient is always there, but if that did happen, I'd probably just not use it because lucid dreaming is so much fun.

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Originally Posted by Idolfan

I think it is largely genetic. The main argument is as to whether upbringing can influence it in any way, this way we could just teach rather than breed people!

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I tend to take the side of "nurture" rather than "nature." People may be more inclined or have more of an aptitude for certain subjects, but that potential alone is not going to make them great at something. Someone who is naturally talented with math isn't going to suddenly start spouting off the quadratic equation without some instruction.

Lucid dreaming is "taught," either by focused conscious effort or through personal experience, in the same way learning that a stove-top is hot (you can either hear about it from someone, or burn yourself).

My theory on dreams has to deal with importance. If something is important to you, you're more likely to remember it or work at/towards it, etc. Most people in today's society don't place much importance on dreams, so they tend to not remember them except under either extraordinary or random circumstances. A child usually finds them fascinating. A child also has few other responsibilities in their life to keep them from making that a priority. A child is also constantly experiencing new things, so the dream world remains an exciting and curious place.

Learning to re-build one's dream recall requires re-discovering one's excitement and curiosity and the willingness to make it a priority. Even someone with little propensity/potential to be a lucid dreamer can achieve it with some hard work.

As for losing the ability to dream and/or lucid dream, it will only go away once it loses its importance or the brain/mind is altered in such a way that one's ability to dream is taken away.

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Originally Posted by Amethyst Star

Lucid dreaming is "taught," either by focused conscious effort or through personal experience, in the same way learning that a stove-top is hot (you can either hear about it from someone, or burn yourself).

My theory on dreams has to deal with importance.

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This seems fairly congruent with what I've heard while talking to many "natural" lucid dreamers. An often recurring theme is that they used to be plagued by terrible nightmares - something which I'm sure was a very important issue to them at the time - and it was through these experiences that they learned to consistently recognize the dream state.

Although, on the other hand...

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Originally Posted by Amethyst Star

Someone who is naturally talented with math isn't going to suddenly start spouting off the quadratic equation without some instruction.

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It has happened. :bigteeth:

Anyway, it's undoubtedly a combination of both, but it seems likely that "nurture" is a bigger factor.

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Originally Posted by DuB

This seems fairly congruent with what I've heard while talking to many "natural" lucid dreamers. An often recurring theme is that they used to be plagued by terrible nightmares - something which I'm sure was a very important issue to them at the time - and it was through these experiences that they learned to consistently recognize the dream state.

Although, on the other hand...It has happened. :bigteeth:

Anyway, it's undoubtedly a combination of both, but it seems likely that "nurture" is a bigger factor.

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I'm sorry, I just have to say... YOUR AVATAR IS SO COOL!

i actually think lucid dreaming will increase. with helpful products like the Nova Dreamer, i think more people will be able to lucid dream. and i think interest is slowely spreading. like if i talk about lucid dreaming to 7 people and 2 find it interesting, the idea is spreading.

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Originally Posted by DuB

An often recurring theme is that they used to be plagued by terrible nightmares - something which I'm sure was a very important issue to them at the time - and it was through these experiences that they learned to consistently recognize the dream state.

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But I was also plagued by nightmares, and never recognized the dream state. What does that mean? And I have loved dreaming my entire life. You'd think it'd be easier for me to become lucid, especially with the large amounts of time I spend asleep and dreaming and in that dream state! :roll: I suck hahaha

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Originally Posted by i make it rain

i actually think lucid dreaming will increase. with helpful products like the Nova Dreamer, i think more people will be able to lucid dream. and i think interest is slowely spreading. like if i talk about lucid dreaming to 7 people and 2 find it interesting, the idea is spreading.

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My mom (who loves dreaming too, we always talk about my attempts to LD and she actually had one the other night because of that) was on a blind date with an extremely boring guy. After exhausting how one anothers' food was, she asked him, "So what do you think about lucid dreaming? Have you ever had one?" and he responded, "Oh, yes! I mean, I think so. What is that?" hahaha Maybe the next guy she talks to hahaha

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Originally Posted by Shift

My mom (who loves dreaming too, we always talk about my attempts to LD and she actually had one the other night because of that) was on a blind date with an extremely boring guy. After exhausting how one anothers' food was, she asked him, "So what do you think about lucid dreaming? Have you ever had one?" and he responded, "Oh, yes! I mean, I think so. What is that?" hahaha Maybe the next guy she talks to hahaha

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we LDers should start a "pay it forward" thing. every person we tell about LDing should be required to tell someone else. haha.

We just all have to be sure our reproductive mates are good at lucid dreaming. That would be a fun question for the first date.

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Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

We just all have to be sure our reproductive mates are good at lucid dreaming. That would be a fun question for the first date.

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hahaha, exactly

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Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

We just all have to be sure our reproductive mates are good at lucid dreaming. That would be a fun question for the first date.

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If we're keeping lucid dreaming alive, hypothetically, it would be best to set up non-lucid dreamers with lucid dreamers because if at least one parent LDs their offspring can learn of it.

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Originally Posted by luciddream

If we're keeping lucid dreaming alive, hypothetically, it would be best to set up non-lucid dreamers with lucid dreamers because if at least one parent LDs their offspring can learn of it.

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Well, only if the ability to lucid dream is a dominant trait! If it's recessive, you'd want 2 LDers. There's the chance you could have a heterozygote, but if it's recessive you'd want to just have two homozygotes for maximum probability.

Of course, look at polydactylism haha

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Originally Posted by Shift

Well, only if the ability to lucid dream is a dominant trait! If it's recessive, you'd want 2 LDers. There's the chance you could have a heterozygote, but if it's recessive you'd want to just have two homozygotes for maximum probability.

Of course, look at polydactylism haha

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i think he assumed that LDing is not hereditary, but as long as a member of a family can do it, he or she can maybe get the rest interested.

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Originally Posted by i make it rain

i think he assumed that LDing is not hereditary, but as long as a member of a family can do it, he or she can maybe get the rest interested.

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Oh haha, I thought we were still talking about "breeding" lucid dreamers :tongue:

I think it really depends on the people, though. My dad is a natural, but never told me until recently, when I explained that I'd experienced something called lucid dreaming and was trying to learn it. My sister is also a natural, but neither one of them is particularly interested in it. In fact my mom, who has had only a few, loves dreaming and is a vivid dreamer like me, and I think she's motivated me more than the other two, but I think mainly because I'm the one who is always talking to her about dreaming! And my brother never remembers his dreams, and is not particularly interested in dreaming at all. I think it depends on your personality, more than anything.

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Originally Posted by Idolfan

As far as I can see, animals that dream are designed to forget them as a key survivial mechanism.

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That's unfounded blahblah. It is not even known if animals dream at all.

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Originally Posted by Idolfan

This clearly comes from the days when we were too stupid to distinguish them from reality.

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Is that so? And what makes you think dreams are not real? What makes you think that this moment in which you are reading this response is more real? There is no indication.

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Originally Posted by Idolfan

I have confidence that plenty of mammals may be able to tell them apart too, but still, advanced as we are, it seems a miracle we can remember dreams at all if this is the case. LDing is an amazing thing, but unfortionately the majority of people don't see it this way.

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That's because they were indoctrinated that dreams are unreal farts of the subconscious and that this commonly shared environment that is defined by science is more real. The same indoctrination that seems to apply to you as well. We may have to deal with this reality, but it's not the only one we exist in and I'm not doing esoterics here. The priests of old times have been replaced by modern scientists. What do they have in common? They can only make up theories based on axiomatic belief systems but they simply cannot explain anything. It just happens that society accepts them more than priests today. That wasn't always the case and it doesn't make much of a difference.

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Originally Posted by Idolfan

Possibly over time, what if people were to completely lose the ability to LD? It's unlikely, but still possible. Seeing as few people care about it it's not hard to imagine the technique may be lost. As our minds advance (or not, it's probably going the other way), the ability to remember dreams or even be conscious in them could just fade away.

Scary thought? :eek:

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What if we all get blind or start laying eggs or get born with additional nipples in our armpits?

"REM sleep decreases as you get older" says science. REM sleep is highly correlated with dreaming.

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Originally Posted by Idolfan

As far as I can see, animals that dream are designed to forget them as a key survivial mechanism. This clearly comes from the days when we were too stupid to distinguish them from reality. I have confidence that plenty of mammals may be able to tell them apart too, but still, advanced as we are, it seems a miracle we can remember dreams at all if this is the case. LDing is an amazing thing, but unfortionately the majority of people don't see it this way.

Possibly over time, what if people were to completely lose the ability to LD? It's unlikely, but still possible. Seeing as few people care about it it's not hard to imagine the technique may be lost. As our minds advance (or not, it's probably going the other way), the ability to remember dreams or even be conscious in them could just fade away.

Scary thought? :eek:

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Interesting, but how I look at it as I don't think animals LD. I mean, we got it for a reason. I doubt many people before we discovered did it. More people are discovering LDing as in forever. I don't think its going away.

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Originally Posted by psychology student

"REM sleep decreases as you get older" says science. REM sleep is highly correlated with dreaming.

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No, it isn't. That's what was believed in the not so distant past. Usually people can recall dreams from lighter sleep states more easily though. That may have caused that assumption. A lot of factors take influence on memory though.

Yes, REM sleep is highly correlated with dreaming. That is not to say that REM causes dreaming, or that dreaming cannot occur without REM.

I am aware of the recent developments in research that say that dreaming may be caused by frontal brain areas. Also, that it may be closely related to Dopamine levels as opposed to Pons activity and REM sleep. Notwithstanding, this does not negate my initial statement.

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Originally Posted by psychology student

Yes, REM sleep is highly correlated with dreaming. That is not to say that REM causes dreaming, or that dreaming cannot occur without REM.

I am aware of the recent developments in research that say that dreaming may be caused by frontal brain areas. Also, that it may be closely related to Dopamine levels as opposed to Pons activity and REM sleep. Notwithstanding, this does not negate my initial statement.

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Well, sleep in general is highly correlated with dreaming and older people tend to sleep less. So what? Why exactly did you mention the REM phase in the context of this thread? And why exactly do you repeat the other information given above? You feel like you have to prove anything?

Dreams occur more often in REM than in any other type of sleep. This was relevant because REM and subsequently dreaming decline with age, hence "What if we lose the ability"