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    1. #1
      Theoretically Impossible Idolfan's Avatar
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      What if we lose the ability?

      As far as I can see, animals that dream are designed to forget them as a key survivial mechanism. This clearly comes from the days when we were too stupid to distinguish them from reality. I have confidence that plenty of mammals may be able to tell them apart too, but still, advanced as we are, it seems a miracle we can remember dreams at all if this is the case. LDing is an amazing thing, but unfortionately the majority of people don't see it this way.

      Possibly over time, what if people were to completely lose the ability to LD? It's unlikely, but still possible. Seeing as few people care about it it's not hard to imagine the technique may be lost. As our minds advance (or not, it's probably going the other way), the ability to remember dreams or even be conscious in them could just fade away.

      Scary thought?

    2. #2
      Invisible Astronomer Iliad Keys's Avatar
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      If you are talking about the theory of evolution, it would supposedly take so many hundreds of generations for something like dreaming to be evolved past that it hardly matters to any of us. But it is an interesting concept. Though if you study the science of dreaming it is somewhat necessary and there is no real reason we would lose it.

    3. #3
      Member polmc's Avatar
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      If we will eventually lose dreaming, I don't think it will be due to evolution. I think it's more likely we'll lose dreaming because of someday our body will be so altered by the use of those artificial drugs (pills, etc.) we keep consuming more and more for any insignifcant reason. Maybe someday we'll take a drug that allows us to just rest for 4 hours a day, hence losing dreams... damn, I hope not!
      Last edited by polmc; 04-18-2008 at 07:41 PM.
      When dreaming beasts are dying down, on out They're there, if we agree they're there, They're there alive and shorn

    4. #4
      Member Shady's Avatar
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      Well, as nearly impossible as it is, I cant say it will never happen because who knows.. but to me it seems like it would be next to impossible, It would be such a "backwards evolution" that not being able to lucid dream would be the least of our worries, as a matter of fact that we probably wouldn't even be able to worry .

      Lucid dreams are no different then regular dreaming, or imagination, or use of our senses.. the reason that we become lucid is because we become self aware or conscious, the brain is awake during "sleep", its the body that sleeps.. and becoming aware is pretty natural, we had become aware in "real life" at some point right?

      I dont wanna turn this into an essay, but some believe intelligence is essentially prediction.

      Becoming lucid in a dream is no different, you pretty much expect (or predict) your hands to look normal, your finger to not go through your palm, this is true of all reality checks obviously. When something goes wrong, you suddenly focus on it. In real life if I took away 1 or 2 steps from your staircase in your house, you would know. Not because you count them, because you simply expect there to be another stair once you get to the top. Becoming lucid is the same thing, you basically predict something to happen, it doesn't, and you just know. From there its almost like you give life to your dream body, and have control.. the same kind you do in real life. The difference is there are no physical laws. Its as if you become conscious or aware in a different frame of mind.

      Maybe deep down, one day we will forget how to "become aware".. but I feel that it is a natural skill, and one that will only improve as we continue to progress. Being aware is essentially life, and I cant see anything that would affect that while asleep, seeing how the brain is active.
      Last edited by Shady; 04-18-2008 at 08:02 PM.

    5. #5
      Member Jdeadevil's Avatar
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      Makes me wonder, I wonder what Cave men dreamt about.

      "He who is the cause of someone else becoming powerful is the agent of his own destruction" - Ezio Auditore da Firenze (1459 - 1524)

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    6. #6
      Il Buoиo Siиdяed's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Jdeadevil View Post
      Makes me wonder, I wonder what Cave men dreamt about.
      Um...caves, hunting, animals, women. Cave men weren't exactly devoid of stimulus.

    7. #7
      »something funny« Chrno666's Avatar
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      I sure wont be around when and if that happens
      -Improving dreamrecall...


    8. #8
      Lucid Dreamer luciddream's Avatar
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      I doubt we'll lose the ability. Even if everyone else in the world somehow forgot about LDing, I wouldn't because I already (luckily) know the techniques. Although that woud be disappointing because I wouldn't be able to learn more.
      Love is lucid.

    9. #9
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      I don't see how this could happen because every normal person can dream, and every normal person can lucid dream. If normal people reproduce, they are going to have kids that dream or lucid dream. It's like running. There could a potentially great runner that sits on his ass all day and gets fat, but chances are he'll have kids that make potentially great runners as well, and if they work at it they will be good runners. Of course, as people get lazier and naturally slow runners don't have any problem surviving in today's world people could get slower, but even that would take hundreds of years. And that wouldn't logically happen with dreaming since just about everyone dreams. And if everyone dreams, everyone that can understand what a dream is can become lucid.

      Also, I believe people were lucid dreaming thousands of years ago. I read it on DV somewhere. It hasn't been mainstream... at all... but now people are doing it. Even if it gets "lost," it will be "found" again later.
      My Dream Journal All comments are welcome!
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    10. #10
      Could've moved Mountains chloecacophony's Avatar
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      Yeah, I think if we lose the capability to dream it will be because the government decides it's a threat to them.
      I'd like to take advantage of a flock of wild birds to make my escape from this planet.
      Music currently bringing on my day dreams:
      Godspeed you! black emperor-Explosions in the sky-a silver mt. zion-Esmerine-Red Sparrows

    11. #11
      Invisible Astronomer Iliad Keys's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Shady View Post
      In real life if I took away 1 or 2 steps from your staircase in your house, you would know. Not because you count them, because you simply expect there to be another stair once you get to the top. Becoming lucid is the same thing, you basically predict something to happen, it doesn't, and you just know.
      Excellent example Shady! In fact if you took off the top few stairs at my house I'd put my foot up, step into empty space, and fall flat on my face! If only dreams were that obvious!

    12. #12
      Lucid Dreamer luciddream's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Iliad Keys View Post
      Excellent example Shady! In fact if you took off the top few stairs at my house I'd put my foot up, step into empty space, and fall flat on my face! If only dreams were that obvious!
      I should hope not! Falling on my face hurts!
      Love is lucid.

    13. #13
      Theoretically Impossible Idolfan's Avatar
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      That is in interesting, but I guess the staircase thing is true. It's just so easy to distinguish lucidity from normal dreaming. In some ways I suppose you can control a dream when subconscious too by expecting something to happen. Unfortionately lucidity can trigger the climax of a nightmare in some and also wakes you up, so higher awareness definetly has some other effect on the dream itself.

      Maybe if we were being controlled we would be forced to be less aware (China) and in a free world (USA) awareness would increase. This may have the same (or opposite? subconscious desires e.t.c) effect on our dreams.

      I take back what I said about evolution though because natural selection could have no power over it. In fact I don't beleive natural selection exists anymore in humans (or is doing anything productive at least). Natural selection doesn't have the power to change a lot of things though, which confuses me. I don't see any other way "evolution" could occur but I do beleive it happens somehow. As far as dreaming is concerned though you're right, it's way more down to society and nurture factors.
      Last edited by Idolfan; 04-19-2008 at 10:30 AM.

    14. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by Siиdяed View Post
      Um...caves, hunting, animals, women. Cave men weren't exactly devoid of stimulus.
      What's really crazy is to wonder if cave men ever dreamed about the same technologically advanced civilizations and architecture that a lot of us on here dream about!

      Fighting, hunting, women... I bet the actors change, but the story was probably very similar to what modern man dreams of.

    15. #15
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      We ought to selectively breed naturals so that the human population lucid dreams every night! Of course my dad is a natural and I can barely LD. *sigh* It would be cool to know the ability to dream and LD is genetic or not.

    16. #16
      Invisible Astronomer Iliad Keys's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Shift View Post
      We ought to selectively breed naturals so that the human population lucid dreams every night! Of course my dad is a natural and I can barely LD. *sigh* It would be cool to know the ability to dream and LD is genetic or not.
      Well, I'm still learning too, but from what I hear the more one practices LDing the more proficient one becomes. People that have been doing it for a long time tend to have them on a weekly basis!
      Sometimes I want to run away
      And just keep on running
      Never stop
      And never look back

    17. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by Iliad Keys View Post
      Well, I'm still learning too, but from what I hear the more one practices LDing the more proficient one becomes. People that have been doing it for a long time tend to have them on a weekly basis!
      I've been trying for two years, while some people can have them overnight. So, I think it depends on the person.
      Hence my question of whether or not it is genetic
      My dad said he learned to LD because of his nightmares as a child. When I was young and had nightmares, I would suffer through them and then kick my wall until one of my parents came to get me bet he wishes I'd learned to LD! hahaha

    18. #18
      Theoretically Impossible Idolfan's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Shift View Post
      *sigh* It would be cool to know the ability to dream and LD is genetic or not.
      I think it is largely genetic. The main argument is as to whether upbringing can influence it in any way, this way we could just teach rather than breed people! . After all, knowing about lucid dreaming tends to increase your chances of having them anyway. I still wonder whether living a "free" existance would cause your mind to be more "free" in dreams or maybe even living a limited existance would cause your desire for freedom to show itself at night. This is completely relevant to society these days. I wonder whether it's Americans or Chinese who LD more?

    19. #19
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      Quote Originally Posted by Idolfan View Post
      I think it is largely genetic. The main argument is as to whether upbringing can influence it in any way, this way we could just teach rather than breed people! . After all, knowing about lucid dreaming tends to increase your chances of having them anyway. I still wonder whether living a "free" existance would cause your mind to be more "free" in dreams or maybe even living a limited existance would cause your desire for freedom to show itself at night. This is completely relevant to society these days. I wonder whether it's Americans or Chinese who LD more?
      It would be interesting to do a survey of the entire globe, and making the connections between dominant religion (if any), economic status, type of government... I guess there are a lot of people from different countries on here, but they are predominantly English-speaking and obviously well enough off that they can use the internet
      Since I love animals, an even more exciting question to me is, do animals have lucid dreams?! Maybe not jellyfish, but what about orangutan and bonobos and chimpanzees? Now that would be cool to find out!

    20. #20
      DuB
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      Quote Originally Posted by Shift View Post
      Fighting, hunting, women... I bet the actors change, but the story was probably very similar to what modern man dreams of.

      "I keep having the same dream. I'm being chased by a saber-toothed tiger. I try to throw a spear at it, but the spear breaks in half when I pick it up..."


      Anyway, not to derail the thread, but this topic begs a bigger question which has been on my mind for a while.

      Is mankind as a species done evolving?
      Has modern society made the process of natural selection obsolete?

      Think about it. There are few ailments which modern medicine cannot cure - in time there may be none. Online dating allows even physically disfigured people to find mates. There are essentially no environmental pressures to serve as catalysts for evolution.

      Some have pointed to the rising average height seen in many cultures in the past couple hundred years as evidence that we are evolving faster than ever. But this apparent surge in average height and overall size has leveled off - it appears to have been caused by environmental factors such as improved nutrition rather than genetic or evolutionary factors. It was not nature, but rather nurture.

      Technology advances faster and faster. But is the human race destined for genetic stagnation? I guess we'll have to wait and see.

    21. #21
      imj
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      Quote Originally Posted by Idolfan View Post
      As far as I can see, animals that dream are designed to forget them as a key survivial mechanism. This clearly comes from the days when we were too stupid to distinguish them from reality. I have confidence that plenty of mammals may be able to tell them apart too, but still, advanced as we are, it seems a miracle we can remember dreams at all if this is the case. LDing is an amazing thing, but unfortionately the majority of people don't see it this way.

      Possibly over time, what if people were to completely lose the ability to LD? It's unlikely, but still possible. Seeing as few people care about it it's not hard to imagine the technique may be lost. As our minds advance (or not, it's probably going the other way), the ability to remember dreams or even be conscious in them could just fade away.

      Scary thought?
      When that happens I hope I'm not a human. I want to be a CAT! But IMO, it will happen but will be replaced by something even better than LDing. LDing will be considered primitive and like masturbation...

      IMJ

    22. #22
      Invisible Astronomer Iliad Keys's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by DuB View Post
      Anyway, not to derail the thread, but this topic begs a bigger question which has been on my mind for a while.

      Is mankind as a species done evolving?
      Has modern society made the process of natural selection obsolete?
      That depends on how you view evolution. I don't believe in evolution between species, but only within certain types. ie. breeding short haired dogs in a cold climate will eventually produce long haired dogs. This doesn't mean that they will ever turn into ostriches. And honestly, there are so many holes in the evolutionist theory that I tend to doubt the whole thing.
      Sometimes I want to run away
      And just keep on running
      Never stop
      And never look back

    23. #23
      DuB
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      Quote Originally Posted by Iliad Keys View Post
      And honestly, there are so many holes in the evolutionist theory that I tend to doubt the whole thing.
      That is something that we can agree on.

      However, if you would like to suppose for a minute that evolution theory is correct and perhaps share some of your views, I made a separate thread in Extended Discussion on this topic:
      http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...d.php?p=780892

    24. #24
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      Quote Originally Posted by DuB View Post

      "I keep having the same dream. I'm being chased by a saber-toothed tiger. I try to throw a spear at it, but the spear breaks in half when I pick it up..."
      as much as I despise those commercials...

    25. #25
      Lucid Dreamer luciddream's Avatar
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      I mean, the possibility that we might create technology so we require less sleep and are thus more efficient is always there, but if that did happen, I'd probably just not use it because lucid dreaming is so much fun.
      Love is lucid.

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