Thread: Ultrasound to induce Lucid Dreams?

Very fascinating. This kinda stuff is probably the future of LDing.

I bet it isn't long before there is a house hold helmet that instantly induces an LD, video game consoles will be a thing of the past.

Originally Posted by lucid4sho

Very fascinating. This kinda stuff is probably the future of LDing.

I bet it isn't long before there is a house hold helmet that instantly induces an LD, video game consoles will be a thing of the past.

Nah, probably porn will be a thing of the past but people are going to want video games for the social aspect and interaction. Until you can actually link brains and share dreams, I think there are certain types of people who are going to view it as too individual and anti-social of an experience. Sucks for them, I'd buy like 3 helmets all for myself!

does anyone know how I can get my hand on any low frequency Ultrasound devices?

a hospital? lol

I dunno, seems quite ballsy to me to start screwing with your head like that. I wouldn't do it unless I knew precisely what I was doing, which I don't. I'm cautious about things like this though, I don't even like the idea of binaural beats because I have no idea what they are actually doing or if the person who made it was qualified to screw with my head

Originally Posted by Shift

a hospital? lol

I dunno, seems quite ballsy to me to start screwing with your head like that. I wouldn't do it unless I knew precisely what I was doing, which I don't. I'm cautious about things like this though, I don't even like the idea of binaural beats because I have no idea what they are actually doing or if the person who made it was qualified to screw with my head

"One prior stumbling block to using ultrasound noninvasively in the brain has been the skull. However, the acoustic frequencies utilized by Tyler and his colleagues to construct their pulsed ultrasound waveforms, overlap with a frequency range where optimal energy gains are achieved between transcranial transmission and brain absorption of ultrasound - which allows the ultrasound to penetrate bone and yet prevent damage to the soft tissues. Their findings are supported by other studies examining the potential of high-intensity focused ultrasound for ablating brain tissues, where it was shown that low-frequency ultrasound could be focused through human skulls."

- http://www.news-medical.net/?id=42266


I doubt that low frequency ultrasound is dangerous, some people already use it with their electric toothbrushes.

Ultrasound is just sound that is higher in frequency than what the human ear can hear.

Dogs, cats and other animals can hear ultrasound.

I realize all these things, I just don't like screwing around with things I don't fully understand. And I'm not talking about soft tissue, more about things like brainwave entrainment and what exactly you're doing to your brain. Since I'd have no idea what I'd be doing, I don't like the idea of arbitrarily using things to mess with it

I read the study, and it stated that the feasibility of in vivo usage of LILFU as a therapeutic tool is yet to be proven. It seems like they tested a variety of tissues in vitro, and noticed ion/voltage modulation, citing studies that showed ultrasound can be focused beyond the skull, but had not actually tested this technique on human subjects (understandably).

Things may begin to flower in the coming years, however. I've always wanted to look into dream-induction via neurological modulation, but am finding myself limited by economic concerns (the darn economy doesn't appreciate science as much as it used to ).

This is what im thinking, the reason where not lucid duing dreams is because the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex is deactivated during dreams.

The dorsolateral prefrontal cortex is located behind your forehead and its role is sustaining attention and working memory and consciousness



If i can find some way to have low intensity low frequency Ultrasound (LILFU) on my forehead while im dreaming. This could possibly become a huge breakthrough in Lucid dream Tech if it works.

But as you pointed out, i lack the resources, by any chance do you know where I could possibly find/buy an Ultrasound thing?

Originally Posted by Shift

Nah, probably porn will be a thing of the past but people are going to want video games for the social aspect and interaction. Until you can actually link brains and share dreams, I think there are certain types of people who are going to view it as too individual and anti-social of an experience. Sucks for them, I'd buy like 3 helmets all for myself!

Very true.

Originally Posted by westonci

But as you pointed out, i lack the resources, by any chance do you know where I could possibly find/buy an Ultrasound thing?

Well the actual study is here:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0003511

It states the researchers had used "custom built PZT ultrasound transducers" with a diameter of 35mm. I've made intrasonic speakers before (20-20k Hz range) but never anything capable of MHz range. I'd imagine they use some sort of piezoelectric element (perhaps why they are referred to as PZT). They also used a function generator to create square-waves, fed into yet what I can only guess is another function generator to generate pulses (I think they mentioned pulse-length sweeps), and finally fed the resulting signal into an amplifier for the transducer.

Generally these sort of high speed function-generators and amplifiers can be pretty costly, but eBay might a good source for this type of equipment.

The following are the parts they use:

• Agilent 33220A Function Generator
• ENI 240L RF Amplifier

Originally Posted by Ailos

Well the actual study is here:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0003511

It states the researchers had used "custom built PZT ultrasound transducers" with a diameter of 35mm. I've made intrasonic speakers before (20-20k Hz range) but never anything capable of MHz range. I'd imagine they use some sort of piezoelectric element (perhaps why they are referred to as PZT). They also used a function generator to create square-waves, fed into yet what I can only guess is another function generator to generate pulses (I think they mentioned pulse-length sweeps), and finally fed the resulting signal into an amplifier for the transducer.

Generally these sort of high speed function-generators and amplifiers can be pretty costly, but eBay might a good source for this type of equipment.

The following are the parts they use:

• Agilent 33220A Function Generator
• ENI 240L RF Amplifier

I just read the study and they say that they used 440–670 KHz ultrasound. They said that low intensity, low frequency Ultrasound (LILFU) was used since both mathematical models and experimental data indicated that the optimal gain between transcranial transmission and brain absorption for Ultrasound is ∼600–700 KHz




"Although numerous intriguing studies examining the influence of US on neuronal activity have been conducted, these previous investigations have implemented high-intensity US, which can destroy nervous tissue. Thus, we decided to investigate the influence of low-intensity ultrasound on neuronal activity. Most of the prior investigations examining the effect of US on neuronal activity also used high-frequency US (>1 MHz; for exceptions see [3], [20], [21]), which has larger attenuation coefficients compared to lower frequency ultrasound. Medical diagnostic US typically operates from 1 to 15 MHz while therapeutic US is usually conducted using acoustic frequencies around 1 MHz [11]. We chose to pursue our investigations here using low-frequency US (0.44–0.67 MHz) since both mathematical models and experimental data indicate the optimal gain between transcranial transmission and brain absorption for US is ∼0.60–0.70 MHz"

Ah, well then a 1Mhz function generator would work nicely.

I found a simple circuit that would cost no more than 10-20 dollars to construct that is capable of 1 Hz - 1 MHz signal generation:
http://electronics-diy.com/electroni...tic.php?id=794

However, finding amplifiers and transducers capable of 600 - 700 KHz is diffuclt and are generally very expensive:
http://www.google.com/products?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&hs=lu6&q=ultrasound+transducer&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&resnum=1&ct=title

It's too bad they didn't go into detail about how to construct one.

Originally Posted by Ailos

It's too bad they didn't go into detail about how to construct one.

Im not a tech wiz by a long shot, but do you know what they mean by "remotely" when they say "Remote Excitation of Neuronal Circuits Using Low-Intensity, Low-Frequency Ultrasound"

Did they use a EEG like helmet? A transducer?

Im having trouble visualizing how they actually applied the Ultrasound to a persons head.

Well to my understanding, the ultrasonic transducer (to transduce is to transform energy into another form) transforms the high frequency waveforms (it says "low", but that's a relative term referring to the normal 20-40Mhz ultrasonic range) to physical vibrations. A normal sonic transducer is the simple speaker, using electromagetism to generate physical vibrations.

Electromagnetism has it's limits, though. At high frequencies it tends to get dirty, so as a means to overcome this, ultrasound transducers utilize the piezoelectric effect (essentially vibration of electrically excited crystal).

These physical vibrations have the capacity to flow through tissue, and become focused at certain points (just like sound waves can flow through air). I'm not sure how they focus the waves exactly, but I'm guessing they use a simple parabolic focusing mechanism. So to pass these through the skull, a gel would be applied to the person head, upon which the transducer would be placed. The gel acts as a conduction medium, the same type used in ultrasounds for pregnancies.

The term "remote" in this sense just means non-invasive (invasive techniques include methods like deep brain stimulation, which use electrodes implanted within the brain).

I just read the study from here

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=2568804

Ultrasound seems like a really plausible means of activating the brain while asleep.

Someone needs to try it and see what happens

Well it's not as easy as "just trying" it; accurate ultrasonic transduction is difficult to reproduce without the necessary, often expensive, equipment. I've worked with electronics and the like quite a bit myself, and can see some parts being replaced by more simple, cheaper circuits, but other parts (i.e., the transducer) will still cost a few grand.

And to accurately measure what is going on would require a CT or MRI in order to achieve a resolution fine enough to make out small modulations in neurotransmission caused by LILFU.

Originally Posted by Ailos

Well it's not as easy as "just trying" it; accurate ultrasonic transduction is difficult to reproduce without the necessary, often expensive, equipment. I've worked with electronics and the like quite a bit myself, and can see some parts being replaced by more simple, cheaper circuits, but other parts (i.e., the transducer) will still cost a few grand.

And to accurately measure what is going on would require a CT or MRI in order to achieve a resolution fine enough to make out small modulations in neurotransmission caused by LILFU.

I think we just need a transducer, and just zap it at our foreheads. lol

http://www.parsonicscorp.com/

http://cgi.ebay.ca/HP-21200B-2-5MHz-...3286.m20.l1116

Haha, well if you wanna shell out that kind of money, be my guest. I'm just as interested as anyone else =]

I found a website that makes custom Ultrasonic Transdcucers. Check it out

http://www.piezotechnologies.com/dow...FQJNagodIlsc4A

Originally Posted by Ailos

Haha, well if you wanna shell out that kind of money, be my guest. I'm just as interested as anyone else =]

Hey Ailos, sorry to bother you but what does low intensity "pulsed" ultrasound mean?

Secondly, is "pulsed" ultrasound what hey used in the experiment?

Pulsed refers to the length of time the ultrasound was active. I believe in this experiment the pulse was the length of mere milliseconds, or less, but it should specify the length in the study. So the ultrasonic frequency has nothing to do with the pulse length. This is important since the focused vibrations generate heat, and consequently can damage tissue if it becomes exposed for too long (higher ultrasonic frequencies and higher amplitudes [power] are actually used to destroy tissues within the body).

I'm thinking the effects of neural excitation had lasted longer than the actual pulse length, but how long this latent effect lasted I'm not clear on.

And I do believe I read that they had, in fact, used pulsed ultrasound at a variety of pulse lengths.

Ive read the study man time over and from what Ive read the Ultrasonic Transducers had the following Properties.

Frequency: 0.44 MHz
Tone Burst Duration (TBD): 22.7 microseconds
Cycles per tone-burst (c/tb): 10
Pulse Repetition Frequency (PRF): 0-100Hz linear sweep over a 5 second period
Number of tone burst per stimulus (Ntb): 250
P-P Square Wave amplitude: 500 mV

Im having trouble understanding the last three, can you help explain what they mean/refer to.

Thanks Ailos

Good job finding that.

Yeah, the last three:

"Pulse Repetition Frequency" refers to how many pulses (of length 22.7 microseconds, with a tonal frequency of .44Mhz) there are per second. The 0-100Hz linear sweep means that this repetition frequency "sweeps", or increases linearly, from 0 Hz to 100 Hz over the period of 5 seconds.

"Number of tone bursts per stimulus" refers to how many pulses (of length 22.7 microseconds, with a tonal frequency of .44Mhz) occur over the 5-second repetition frequency sweep.

The P-P Square Wave amplitude is how "big" the square wave is (a square wave is basically on-off-on-off with little to no in-between, unlike a sine-wave which is gradual in its gain and loss). The P-P is peak to peak I believe, meaning that the lower peak (trough) is 500mV less than the upper peak (crest).

Hope that helps!

Originally Posted by Ailos

Good job finding that.

Yeah, the last three:

"Pulse Repetition Frequency" refers to how many pulses (of length 22.7 microseconds, with a tonal frequency of .44Mhz) there are per second. The 0-100Hz linear sweep means that this repetition frequency "sweeps", or increases linearly, from 0 Hz to 100 Hz over the period of 5 seconds.

"Number of tone bursts per stimulus" refers to how many pulses (of length 22.7 microseconds, with a tonal frequency of .44Mhz) occur over the 5-second repetition frequency sweep.

The P-P Square Wave amplitude is how "big" the square wave is (a square wave is basically on-off-on-off with little to no in-between, unlike a sine-wave which is gradual in its gain and loss). The P-P is peak to peak I believe, meaning that the lower peak (trough) is 500mV less than the upper peak (crest).


Hope that helps!

Thanks a lot Ailos.

So they where using a square waves and not sine wave?

Can ultrasonic transducers produce sqare waves or do we have to modify it or build a custom one?