LD's vs AP's

[eggbert]

I read a post in the Attaining Lucidity forum where someone recommended methods for astral projection to come out of his body and start an LD. Sorry if it has been asked before, but it raises the question: What is the difference between an astral projection and a lucid dream? I looked up methods for astral projections, and some seem just like LD methods. Relaxing, concentrating, then some sort of movement such as rolling to either "project" or start dreaming. Seems to me mystics or occultists discovered LDing and thought it was something spiritual. You can make yourself see your own body and silver cords etc in an LD so I'm curious as to what the supposed difference is.

[vonklammo]

As a skeptic, I firmly regard astral projections as a subset of lucid dreams. I.e. all astral projections are really lucid dreams, it's only the intent that is different. People who AP feel strongly that they are literally leaving their body and interacting with the universe, but then again, so do lucid dreamers. The feeling in itself proves nothing, and as far as I know, there has been no instance of an astral projection actually influencing the real world in any way. So until that happens, I'm gonna go Occam's Razor on AP's ass and say: APs are LDs.

[Shift]

People who AP feel strongly that they are literally leaving their body and interacting with the universe, but then again, so do lucid dreamers. Speak for yourself in all things. Personally, I think that APs are simply dreams. APers are NOT lucid dreamers because they do not realize what they are doing is simply dreaming. If they did, they'd be aware in their dreams and lucid dreaming. Since they are aware, but not aware that they are dreaming, then they are not lucid dreamers. I suppose you could say they are consciously dreaming, but not lucid dreaming. AP, ie leaving your body to take your spirit to the astral realm or whatever, is to me a load of BS mainly because for something so simple, they have no modern evidence of AP existing. If anyone can learn to AP, then how come they haven't proven to the world that it's real yet? SOMEONE would be making a buck off of it if it did. Yea, this topic has cropped up a number of times.

[moonshine]

AP, ie leaving your body to take your spirit to the astral realm or whatever, is to me a load of BS mainly because for something so simple, they have no modern evidence of AP existing. If anyone can learn to AP, then how come they haven't proven to the world that it's real yet? 100% Agree. I've even checked out an OBE website which offered advice along the lines of "you may realise you bedroom has subtly changed. Perhaps there are extra windows...." Well DOH! thats cos its in your mind.

[Lusense]

Ya, I had my first "OOBE" (without the influence of drugs) and it seemed like it was just a lucid dream where I performed one. Other people have opinions that they are a unique and special event but I think that confirmed it for me. The fact that I performed multiple reality checks was one thing. Not to mention that all the things I had read about regarding APs became true except slightly different, and everything was the exact same in my house except that when I flew to the roof in the washroom there were no lights. Also, it was triggered the day after I read up on them online. All this stuff leads me to believe that it's just your mind creating a dream (lucid depending on what you believe) regarding APs.

[moonshine]

Ya, I had my first "OOBE" (without the influence of drugs) and it seemed like it was just a lucid dream where I performed one. Other people have opinions that they are a unique and special event but I think that confirmed it for me. The fact that I performed multiple reality checks was one thing. Not to mention that all the things I had read about regarding APs became true except slightly different, and everything was the exact same in my house except that when I flew to the roof in the washroom there were no lights. Also, it was triggered the day after I read up on them online. All this stuff leads me to believe that it's just your mind creating a dream (lucid depending on what you believe) regarding APs. You put that very well. The fact is that the induction techniques for OBE's and Lucid Dreams are almost identical. Which when you get right down to it should be more than sufficent evidence to let the pragmatic work out whats really going on. It seems clear that those who go on soul quests to find the big ol' ball of light at the centre of the universe simple find exactly what the wanted/expected to find.

[Shift]

Personally I make a distinction between Lucid Dreams, AP (possibly just dreams), and OoBEs (any time you feel as though you have left your body, including during dreams and lucid dreams, but not limited to dreaming.) The perception of leaving your body is not the same thing as the assumption that one's soul or spirit or whatever has left your body, regardless of where it has gone (above your bed, the 'astral realm'), and I think it's highly plausible and I believe that the numerous documented cases of reported OoBEs are legitimate perceptual experiences.

[TTTman]

Are NDE's (Near Death Experiences) the same as OBE's? I've seen books that describe NDE's in which the person can witness actual events happening in the real world. My understanding of AP's is that's the goal there too. Not just dreaming, but having your perception actually go and view something going on in the verifiable real world.

[Mertruve]

NDEs are conscious dreams and are generated during the resuscitation (when you're regaining consciousness). Check out the Wikipedia page.

[Shift]

Check out the Wikipedia page.