3 Reasons You Cannot Visualize; An Old Veteran's Opinion

[Richter]

Taken Directly from: http://ezinearticles.com/?3-Reasons-...res&id=2382881 All too often many people complain about the most important step in manifesting their desires; and that is their inability to visualize their goals. Are you one of those people who find it hard to hold a very clear mental vision of your desires? You are certainly not alone. There is a skill to visualizing but there is also a skill in opening your third eyes. Two separate things really.Opening your third eye clears up your mental vision so that you can actually see the mental images when you close your eyes to visualize. All too often many people are not even able to do that. So before they are able to actually sit back and visualize they must be able to actually see the images, which they cannot do at all. Your lack of visualization skills may be one of the main reasons you are unable to attract what you want. When you create a goal you must be able to visualize it in your mind with crystal clarity. The mental interaction in your head must be clear but what happens when you can only see darkness? There is a reason for this: The 3 Most Common Reasons You Cannot Visualize If you experience a dark void when you try to visualize your desires there are several reasons for this. Visualization may be new to you. Maybe you are so preoccupied with your daily activities and you may be someone who never takes anytime to reflect on your life. There are many people like this, they are very much in the world and the idea of going inside of themselves to think and process what is happening around them is not something that they ever get to do. Those sorts of people cannot see when they try to visualize because they have simply shut down that part of their brain. With a few simple exercises they can open and awaken the inner mental vision. Do you experience very dark images when you aim to visualize? Those dark images happen because of two reasons; one reason is excessive mental clutter and also not taking enough time to hold on to your mental images long enough to awaken your mental vision. When you mind is jumping from one issue to another such as paying the bills and washing the car and feeding the kids, those thoughts can cloud the mind with dark energy. This dark energy creates a cloudy atmosphere that must be cleared up. You can visualize an image for a second or two but then the image jumps right out of your mind all too quickly. This is far one of the most often complained about issue with visualization. This happens because you are unable to get into the right brainwaves. When your mind is over active it prevents you from holding the mental images long enough to actually see results. Concentration is a most powerful tool when it comes to visualizing. The ability to hold an image in your mind long enough is the true power of entering the creative zone. If you are unable to do that then you are missing out on being able to manifest what you want. The only way to success with visualization is to develop strong mind tools. Only by developing the mind can you alter and shift reality for it to be what you want it to be. --- I believe visualization, or the ability to truly "see" something in one's mind's eye and not just conceptually think about it, is paramount for daily concentration, lucid dreaming, and such thinky things. Without good mental images, dreams are nothing but muddled thoughts and ideas, but not really sensory experiences. I should know, I've had lots of those types of "thinking dreams" where I'm barely seeing anything, if at all. These dreams are remembered similar to how one would remember thinking about some thing a while ago, rather than have seen something or heard something. Not fun. The first reason for sucking at visualization definitely applies to me the most. I see nothing but a dark void when I close my eyes, in visualization practice and before/after sleep. Strangely enough I'm very introspective and self-conscious compared to most people; perhaps too much so. o_o I've had glimpses of good visualization, ala the third category of bad visualization. The one where you can get an image for a little second or two but lose it rather quickly. Ironically these slight glimpses have been my best visualization moments. At least I have a true idea of what visualization is supposed to be, rather than just merrily thinking that visualization/dreams are supposed to be all thinky and bland. << Same goes for dreams; I've had a few dreams that have included REAL SIGHT!!! and hearing and all that good stuff, but comparing those to my normal dreams is like comparing viewing a picasso painting to reading a newspaper. The point that visualization and "opening one's third-eye" are two seperate things really hit home with me. While my "third-eye", or my ability to actually see what I imagine or remember, is quite dead it seems, my imagination proper is wonderful. I can imagine scenarios and ideas conceptually in great detail, and remember things just the same. My dreams, again, are like that too even. They're very detailed, often logical, and have great stories... but lacking in sensory quality. So I guess what I'm asking is: how do I actually see what I visualize and dream? Please don't give me the diatribe that one doesn't actually see what they visualize, etc... Not only have I been around too long to believe that, but I've actually had visualizations/dreams (rarely) that were of the quality I describe. Furthermore, if all visualization was, was just thinking about things, then there wouldn't be 18million books, articles, and websites devoted to the art. Sorry, I'm not trying to be rude if I sound snarky, but I'm fairly certain I'm correct on this, and would greatly greatly appreciate an answer from somebody that has gone from zero to hero, so to speak. An individual or two that have gone from seeing naught but blackness before their lids, to a wonderful world of colour. Please, somebody... anybody! I really need help with this. I've been studying and practicing this sort of thing for years now, and think this roadblock is key. I'd GREATLY appreciate the help, and would be willing to help with any questions and problems a person might have. I'm not quite the dreamer I used to be in life, but I'm fairly knowledgeable and such. I'm willing to talk on AIM if desired; I certainly like it. Have a good day and a good dream.

[Potatoes]

When you read a book, you visualize everything. You imagine how the place looks like in the book. Everyone does it, but they don't know it.

[Richter]

Wow, quick reply. 0.0 Sorry, I really don't agree with that 100%. X: Did you read the article? Yes, anybody can read a book and understand it conceptually (unless they've a language disorder or some such). Anybody can imagine to a point, though some people's imaginations are less developed... <<;;; Not anybody can read a book, then close their eyes and actively try to see what they just read, like a dream, and then actually SEE something though. At least not without practice. That's the key difference. What you are describing with your book analogy is imagination/visualization, in relation to the article. What's missing is the "third-eye" aspect. For the record, I absolutely despise the term third-eye. It's esoteric, associated with new-agey idiocy and such. I use it now only because the article did. Whenever I refer to "third-eye" I refer to the ability to actually experience imagined/visualized things in sensory quality, and not just conceptually. It is often said that the brain cannot differentiate between imaginary and real experiences, which is why visualization and dreams are so powerful, and why websites like this exist. However these things must actually be experienced to be useful, otherwise it is just thinking. You don't get better at something by just thinking about it.

[ultranova]

Interesting article, Well I don't know how to put this, sometimes when I do visualing at first I actually don't 'see' anything I just have idea in my mind what would that look like. But there are times where I'm actually seeing whats happening, I believe that's the point where dream forms. I remember once I was visualing something and then someone disturbed me ( If I remember well someone entered room ) and then when I tried to continue I just realized how clear and vivid the pictures where before. But again I think I was half-asleep.

[Potatoes]

Wow, quick reply. 0.0 Sorry, I really don't agree with that 100%. X: Did you read the article? Yes, anybody can read a book and understand it conceptually (unless they've a language disorder or some such). Anybody can imagine to a point, though some people's imaginations are less developed... <<;;; Not anybody can read a book, then close their eyes and actively try to see what they just read, like a dream, and then actually SEE something though. At least not without practice. That's the key difference. What you are describing with your book analogy is imagination/visualization, in relation to the article. What's missing is the "third-eye" aspect. For the record, I absolutely despise the term third-eye. It's esoteric, associated with new-agey idiocy and such. I use it now only because the article did. Whenever I refer to "third-eye" I refer to the ability to actually experience imagined/visualized things in sensory quality, and not just conceptually. It is often said that the brain cannot differentiate between imaginary and real experiences, which is why visualization and dreams are so powerful, and why websites like this exist. However these things must actually be experienced to be useful, otherwise it is just thinking. You don't get better at something by just thinking about it. Okay, so just imagining something isn't visualizing?

[arby]

For the record, I absolutely despise the term third-eye. It's esoteric, associated with new-agey idiocy and such. I use it now only because the article did. Whenever I refer to "third-eye" I refer to the ability to actually experience imagined/visualized things in sensory quality, and not just conceptually. Whew, I almost threw out most of the stuff here because of the use of terms like this. Good to know you don't take them to heart ;P I don't think you're going to get dream-quality visualizations outside of a dream. In my experiences, visualizations when you are conscious outside a dream are not as powerful as ones inside a dream. I do not know if this is because they are actually any different or if the dream state and false memories are simply telling us that they are better then they actually were.

[aileenwuornos]

When you read a book, you visualize everything. You imagine how the place looks like in the book. Everyone does it, but they don't know it. Yeah, that's a really good way to think about it and a really great way to practice I guess? If so, I'm psyched because I LOVE reading There's another technique I learned in a Wiccan book (Fiona Horne of all people, ah, to never be 10 again ) you just need a candle and a fairly dark room. A smoke detector and glass of water is preferable too, but you focus all your "energy" (your mind, your visualisation, your xyz) on moving the candles flame higher, lower, to the left and to the right. You'd be surprised where that can actually lead to. Another is to imagine a gigantic eraser (or whatever else takes your fancy) and try and "erase" the skyline in the difference. Try and see it without it actually being there - however, if buildings start actually falling down I recommend you desist Thanks for sharing that article

[Shift]

The majority of the original post I am not even sure about, seemed like unnecessary mumbo jumbo tossing around the 'third eye' which unfortunately almost drove me away with rolling eyeballs also. Is the purpose of your post "I cannot visualize things and feel that visualization is an important skill for lucid dreaming; how can I develop this ability?" I think that, as with most things, practicing will make you better. First, get out an object. Get something like a clear glass and an opaque liquid. Fill the glass with the liquid. Place it on a surface in front of you. Observe. Notice the details. What do you see through the glass above the line of the liquid? What colors reflect, where are the light sources, blah blah, where are the shadows, what are the shapes, etc. etc. Now that you're familiar with the details that are involved, stare at the cup some more. Then, close your eyes. Using the fact that your eyes have adapted to the light from the room and you're seeing an after-image even though your eyes are closed, build upon what you're still 'seeing' and try to perfectly visualize what you were just looking at, as though it is a photograph. Now, open your eyes. What did you miss? Stare some more, then close your eyes again. Keep doing this until you've got it. Then, drink some of the liquid. Now you have a new subject, though a lot of things will be similar you'll still have to account for droplets, distortion because of the remaining liquid where it used to be opaque, and what you can now see through the glass. Keep practicing this again and again. Can you visualize things like the faces of your best friends and parents and pets? Can you visualize your bedroom?

[Redrivertears]

Heya, I think this is a very difficult topic, because we have no possible way to compare. What could be visualizing to one person could simply be imaging things to another. It's hard to draw lines here. However, it seems to me that Shift really nailed the most important question: how can I improve this skill? I've been working on just that in the past year or so, developing a thing which I call 'dreamfantasy's', in which I will close my eyes and visualize a scene so clearly that when I open my eyes again it's a little 'shock' to find myself back in my real surroundings, just like when you wake up from a dream. Or, in other words, imagine a scene to such a degree that I tend to 'forget' my waking surroundings. I think this may be somewhere along the lines of what you mean. I find the best way to go about this, is to start with 'familiar places/persons/situations', and try to go about visualizing individual elements one by one before merging them into a whole. So if I'm using this imaging technique to try to visualize a room, I'd start by trying to visualize the seperate elements in the room, and the seperate elements of each element (ie, if I was to visualize a bed, I'd start with the sheets, then the pillow, then the bedframe, then any special decorations, before moving on to the desk, where I'd start with the drawers, then the deskframe, then what's on the desk, etc etc...). I use this technique for trying to get WILDS, so being relaxed, in a room with little outside noise and external stimuli certainly helps in that aspect. I also find that combining senses (such as trying to visualize while trying to imagine touching the object and feeling its texture or trying to visualize a beautiful blue sky while imagining hearing a bird cry) tends to aid as well. I guess in this case it's about creating context and association. Anyways, not sure if this is what you're after, but as Shift said, a great deal of it is simply practice and repetition. -Redrivertears-

[Shift]

Another thing I do while walking is close my eyes and visualize what I just saw in front of me, imagining that my surroundings are up to date with each step I take. Then, I try to see if I was accurate in my visualization- if my real location matches up with my visualized one (for example, did I get to the lamppost on the right or not?). Maybe a little more advanced, but easy and fun to do when you're bored and walking.

[Richter]

ultranova: Yes, I've shared that experience indeed, but perhaps not very often at all. It's quite amazing when it happens though, and definitely what I'd be aiming to achieve consistently, since it seems a few people have the natural ability or have learned it. Just like LDing, go figure. Arby: THANK YOU for seeing past all the shiny new-age wordery. ^^ I was hoping people would see past it when I posted this. As for false memories possibly making dream memories better than they actually were, how does a lucid dream work then? 0.o I've had lucids before that have been amazing and almost as good as real lifem sensory speaking. Then I've had lucids that felt like I was completely blind, deaf, a dumb, yet somehow aware of my surroundings. X: Furthermore, Most if not all of my normal dreams seems as if you describe; just false memories with no real sensory experience. I have had the occasional dream however that felt like I was actually there. Maybe you can explain this? aileenwuornos: Perhaps a stupid question, but: Do you attempt to move the flame around with your eyes open or closed? ^^; Personally, for me visualizations should be effectice regardless of eyes open or closed, due to visualization's very nature, but.... what do I know? Redrivertears: Heya, I think this is a very difficult topic, because we have no possible way to compare. What could be visualizing to one person could simply be imaging things to another. It's hard to draw lines here. However, it seems to me that Shift really nailed the most important question: how can I improve this skill? --- Anyways, not sure if this is what you're after, but as Shift said, a great deal of it is simply practice and repetition. -Redrivertears- Hallo Red! I remember you. ^^ Hrrrmmmm... I think what I'm after is best explained by answering your question "How can I improve this skill?" in relation to the first line of your post. There IS a discrepancy between people when they visualize. Some imagine things, some visualize things. It would seem much visualization practice is aimed at improving the ability to imagine, and not actually "see" what's being imagined. I'm already quite good in the imagination depot.... heh, that sounded weird... <<; anyways, I would want to improve the other half, which I'm skeptical some of the practice that's recommended will do, honestly. I think the following might clear up what I'm confused about: 29-Nov-2003, methodman: can you visualize? did you know that there are some people out there that don't actually see what they're visualizing? all they see is darkeness, and they think they're correctly visualizing? It is people like these that are sadly, third eye blind (There's that blasted word again... >< ). They're at a cripling disadvantage because they also have absolutely no power to concentrate, not even a little. They even don't see anything when they dream; and their dreams have no meaning, just pointless thoughts and mild feelings about things roaming through they're heads and that's all! If you can see any form of light when you visualize, doesn't matter if what you're seeing is blurry or out of focus and sometimes morphs out of control, then your third eye is already open. If you can see light when you visulize, then you have some degree of concentration. I know you may think it isn't perfect, but deep inside you, you know you can have a perfect concentration. Now imagine those that can't visualize. I mean, the can't see what they're trying to see, it's like they're in a dark room and they have no light switch. Their concentration is terrible, and they have close to none. Shift: That DOES sound fun O: If not for the visualization practice alone, but for testing whether or not I'd actually make it if I was blind. I'll try what you recommended in both posts; the after-image portion of practice seems effective to me. To answer your questions, even though they were likely hypothetical (Can you visualize the faces of non-random peoples? Can you visualize your bedroom?) I'd say yes, I can, but in a different sort of way, hence the point of the topic: The (possible) difference between imagining vs. experiencing something. I can visualize my friends' faces in a sort of "I'd know it was their face if I saw it" way.

[yuriythebest]

wow most intriguing! I didn't know it was actually possible to vividly "see" something the way one does in dreams or on a pc screen, yeah I can either see something very vividly for a split second or have vague dark outlines but conceptually imagine it. I will try to improve my visualization abilities...

[Shift]

I'm an incredibly visually-based person, I'm not sure if it's some sort of innate thing or if it just comes from daydreaming as a kid (because I thought, everyone must daydream to some degree). I definitely visualize nearly everything, though. So it's hard for me to think along the lines of a person who can't at all Do try the exercises though. One way to visualize like someone who has trouble doing it is to visualize something brand new and that I can do, and I know that exercise helps!

[Richter]

Apologies if I seem to be rapid-responding. ^^; The subject fascinates me. Yuirythebest: Personally, I think it's very rare if at all possible for an individual to visualize to the point of dream/pc monitor quality ALL the time. That skill level certainly isn't needed for visualization to be effective or wonderful, in my opinion. However I think there needs to be some middle ground here. If one isn't seeing ANYTHING then they aren't being effective, and it doesn't help to practice seeing nothing, if you know what I mean. If I had to guess I'd say the reason some people see and others flat-out don't, is more physiological than mental, but I really don't know for sure. All I can say is that I've had 95% visualizations be seeing nothing but thinking in detail, and the other 5% I actually SAW something. Everytime this happened I usually flowed into a dream or a near-dream state, so it would seem vital to see something or sense something, if even a little. I suppose how to go from not-seeing to seeing, could only be explained by properly by a person that has crossed that barrier themself. A natural visualizer probably wouldn't be able to explain it. Shift: Reading your post, I can "see" you are very sight orientated. XD horrible pun.... *dies* If you want to maybe experience what it's like not to be able to visualize properly, maybe try thinking about something without any senses at all? Try and understand and grasp an object without wondering "what it looks like" or "what it feels like". Try thinking about an object in terms of the 3D space it takes up, its mass and shape, like a 3D wireframe model in a graphics program. Think about what the object is used for, what emotions it may bring about, etc... An example I guess would be the keyboard I'm typing on right now even. So let's see (another pun ><) I can't see the keyboard, can't feel it or smell it or taste it (who would want to ) or smell it. So... I can imagine the space it takes up in front of me, and its position in relation to other objects in the vicinity. I know what it's used for, and I know I spend much time with it; whenever I'm at the computer in fact. Now that I think about it, it seems I think about things very "relatively". In other words, I understand things and think about them based on how they relate to other things. As I try and visualize something in my head right now, it's almost impossible to avoid wandering off to imagine all the other objects around it, and where it is, and to make sure it all logically makes sense. It's very hard to concentrate on just seeing the object, and nothing else.

[arby]

If you want to maybe experience what it's like not to be able to visualize properly, maybe try thinking about something without any senses at all? Try and understand and grasp an object without wondering "what it looks like" or "what it feels like". Try thinking about an object in terms of the 3D space it takes up, its mass and shape, like a 3D wireframe model in a graphics program. Think about what the object is used for, what emotions it may bring about, etc... An example I guess would be the keyboard I'm typing on right now even. So let's see (another pun ><) I can't see the keyboard, can't feel it or smell it or taste it (who would want to ) or smell it. So... I can imagine the space it takes up in front of me, and its position in relation to other objects in the vicinity. I know what it's used for, and I know I spend much time with it; whenever I'm at the computer in fact. Now that I think about it, it seems I think about things very "relatively". In other words, I understand things and think about them based on how they relate to other things. As I try and visualize something in my head right now, it's almost impossible to avoid wandering off to imagine all the other objects around it, and where it is, and to make sure it all logically makes sense. It's very hard to concentrate on just seeing the object, and nothing else. You're hinting at the conceptual side of things, with a flavor of being based in the association cortex (which is wonderful and accurate and which is where my personnel fascinations lie). You will definitely be interested in this: (Which Ironically killed the thread they were in because they were too deep for most people) Spoiler for long quotes: I promised an overview of visual processing, so I'll throw a few things down here and my experiments with them, just for kicks. Visual perception is not one unified perception. It is divided into 4 separate categories. Form, color, depth and motion. Form: Essentially the shape of the object. Responsible for your ability to tell where one thing ends and another begins. At it's base, it differentiates a circle from a square. Color: The color that you perceive object as. Pretty simple. Depth: The distance away that you see the object as. Motion: Your ability to tell if an object is moving or is stationary. This one is probably the most fascinating of all. Applying motion to a visualization without changing how you see it will still result in you thinking it is moving even though it doesn't move. Head hurting ensues. See below for more about this. Now, your first instinct is probably to try and think about these in terms of what you can see. Lets say you want to think about shape so you compare a red circle to a red square in your mind's eye. But wait, WHOOPS. You have just invoked depth and color as well in order to see those shapes. You might try and say "well I'll just think of it as colorless and hanging in space at an indeterminate depth" The problem is, as soon as you see it, you DO use those attributes. You'll probably see it as white and you will see it at a particular depth away. Each of these 4 attributes on it's own can only be conceptually described. It took me the better part of a few hours to try and be able to "feel" (theres no better word to describe it) form without seeing it. I was never able to get color by itself. Depth was fairly easy and motion was almost intuitive. By the end of all this, my head seriously hurt and I was completely out of it/I felt fairly disoriented XD. If you want to try and pick out a single visual property yourself, try motion. You can apply it to an otherwise properly visualized object. Lets say you visualize a rectangular prism in your head. Set it rotating for a second just to get a feel for it. Now, try to rotate it again without letting the color, form or depth change. You will know when you've succeeded. You may have to go for a little walk afterward. I did a whole lot of experiments with just combining 2 of the elements, altering 1, creating visual paradoxes (not allowing one property to change with the other) and overall just trying to define my visual space in terms of these 4 things. It doesn't seem to have helped in creating environments, though leading me to concretely believe that it is in fact a different process to create an environment then think about a single object consciously. I'm leaning towards the environment's creation is more in part due to processing and assimilation outside our direct consciousness (but probably right on the boundaries) and thus related to our thoughts about the "gut". It also might be an explanation for why dreams are so weird. If the main contributor to dream imagery and dream logic is the space right outside our consciousness, it would make sense that it doesn't follow any determinable pattern. At any one time, the region that would be classified as right outside conscious awareness would be pretty random (but related in slight, yet abstract ways to the current awareness which is a PERFECT description of dream progression). Thoughts? I have a little mind trick for you guys who want to feel what the conceptual side of visualization is like. Imagine an object (Say, a big red rectangular prism or something) spinning in your mind's eye. Look at it from a couple angles, get a good feel for what it's like. Now, either turn your viewpoint away from the object or move the object around and behind you so that you cannot see it. BUT KEEP IT SPINNING. So, now you should have a spinning object in your conscious awareness but not be able to see it. You have the conceptual representation only. This method is actually pretty stable and doesn't hurt your head so it's great if you want to try and understand the fundamentals of visualization. If you can't get the object to exist even when it goes out of your vision, it means the object did not ever exist conceptually (or you aren't allowing object permanence, you should be able to tell if you are). If it does not exist conceptually, you are essentially just "painting pretty colors on your mind's eye like a canvas" and not really making things in your mind. Try and follow the logic "it is" therefore I see it instead of I see it therefore "it is". This is a fundamental of visualization and you will get DRAMATICALLY better results (ie. results, period. you have to have the conceptual knowledge of your surroundings to be in a dream. The only way you can get that by "painting stuff on your mind's eye" is if it primes you to get the proper, conceptually driven, visualization of it)

[yuriythebest]

right, I was practicing some visualizations before falling asleep, this time trying to actually "see" what I was trying to imagine instead of just having the conceptual image. I think I got a lil bit better. I was trying to visualize a wooden crate, like those in half life 1, what made it easier was, instead of trying to imagine it from scratch, is to actually take the object you are trying to "see" from memory, as in the times you actually did see it somewhere- when it vanishes, remember it again- and again. This "seeing" stuff is intriguing....

[Wildman]

I wonder a lot about this as well, and I usually have the impression my visualization is below average. I can mostly visualize things in "flashes," I seemingly have a clear picture but I can't really maintain it. I have a tough time figuring out how well people "see" these things, I always seem to have to fight off the mental barrier of actually trying to "look" with my eyes -- if i do, I just see blackness because of course, that's what's really there. But I can't seem to concentrate on what I'm imagining enough for it to stay a stable picture. Strangely, I sometimes visualize things easier with my eyes open, I guess it sort of removes the temptation to actually try to "look" with my eyes. As for what has been said about reading a book and imagination, I would say that you can read a book without necessarily being able to visualize what's going on -- that's the difference between conceiving and imagining. I can conceive of an 11-dimensional object, but I can't imagine/visualize one. Edit -- I have also always had the assumption that poor visualization implies poor vividity (at least, visually) in dreams. I'm not sure how true this is.

[Shift]

Do any of you with poor visualization keep regular dream journals? (meaning, at least 1-2 dreams per night) If so, what are your dreams like?

[Richter]

Arby: It's likely that being good at both conceptual/associative thinking and sensory thought are key to effective visualization and dreaming. Both are fascinating at least to me; however, some individuals seem to have one skill but not the other, and thus find the one they don't have more interesting and challenging. Does (most?) visualization practice improve the "painting objects in one's mind's eye", rather than the conceptual side of things? I ask because I tried the exercise where you imagine an object in front of you, and then move it behind you and see if it's still there. For me, it is, and that way of thinking seems to be the only way I think, really. Even if I imagine the object in front of me, it's still conceptual only; no canvas to paint on. As far as conceptual visualization goes, I don't like to be overconfident but I feel I'm quite good at it, so much so that I can't really imagine getting better. I can imagine entire city blocks at a time in detail, rotate the entire thing while keeping a stable mass and proportionality, and change details of it. Maybe that's why I actually enjoy games like SimCity. X: I think if I could possibly see something in my mind's eye, or even psuedo-see something, I'd be quite giddy for a while. The idea sounds incredible. ^^ yuriythebest: Using objects from memory would likely be much easier than making stuff up from scratch. Then again, perhaps using an object from memory is counter-productive, as one would waste time trying to make an object exactly how they remember it, rather than trying to improve the quality of what they're visualizing. *shrugs* Wildman: EXACTLY the same thought here (in regards to poor visualization = non-vivid dreams). I don't think anything is proven, but I can say for sure that's the case with myself. I also don't think I could have worded the conceive vs. visualization argument any better if I tried. *applause* In my humble opinion, logically there should be nothing wrong with trying to look at one's visualizations with their eyes. Reason being, in Rapid-Eye-Movement sleep, our eyes are darting about underneath closed lids, as if our eyes are actually trying to look at our dreams. This doesn't seem to disturb the dreaming process, so why would it disturb the visualization process? Maybe another factor is determining if/what one sees. If I had to guess, I'd wager it's something to do with the same processes in play when hypnagogic imagery starts. It's like part of the brain slows down a little, to allow another part of the brain to take priority. *shrugs* For the record, I don't experience HI 99% of the time, but when I have it's been absolutely stunning to me and given that giddy feeling. Much like visualization. Shift: No, not 1-2 dreams a night. More like 1 dream every other day or so. I like to give myself leeway because I have sleeping difficulties and also the dreams I do have are often quite long, detailed, and logical, but eh... Lacking in the sensory department. They rarely feel as if I was actually there. It's as if I'm lying in bed, thinking of a story or conversation, and as I lose consciousness my mind keeps running with the train of thought, thinking of details and going off on tangents subconsciously. It becomes mostly automatic at some point, as it seems my ego is completely absent; it's just the very core of my mind. When I awake, it feels like I've been writing a story all night long, in the same way it feels to try and write fiction or write a book-report, just less boring. However, it does not feel like an actual experience at all. In that sense, it's not even a true memory; more like a memory of having thought about something. X: Also for the record, I have had occasional wonderful dreams that DO feel like experiences and such, and even if they aren't perfectly vivd and such, the difference between said thinking-dreams and these is just night-and-day. Vivid sensory dreams are also MUCH easier to remember.

[arby]

Hmm... so you're always just seeing darkness with the conceptual knowledge of the object existing? That's exactly the opposite of what I normally see XD I normally have to pry people away from thinking "seeing" in your minds eye == drawing pretty pictures on it. I've never actually seen a case such as yourself. I think you're a hop, skip and a jump away.... You just need to flush the images out. I have really no idea how you could do this so I'll recommend something that helps me get vivid images. Music! Listen to one of these tracks that tend to be imagery inducing, sit back, put on headphones, close your eyes and think about the most epic things you can associate with them. http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/183035 http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/57536 http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/120788 Also, you seem to have this idea that you have "poor visualization ability" along with 99% of this forum. This is completely false. You HAVE the ability. You have gotten those pictures that were vivid and stable. You have the ability to see them now, this very instant... Or are you trying to say that randomly mental functions disappear. Yeah, you can do it only on tuesdays or something, right? ;P The trick is figuring out how to use it properly.

[spaceexplorer]

Im an average visualiser. I see things no-where near as clear as real life, but with time and thought i can start to assemble something half decent. It is never the same quality as real life (other than when dreaming) it's more like im seeing the image through the filter of my eyelids, the eyelids dont vanish, they just stop being quite so opaque. The key to it for me, is to not try to imagine the image on the dark space between your eyelid and eyeball (which seems to be the default for me) but to imagine where things would be if your eyes were open. So you're looking out into the space beyond your eyelids. Also just staring out at the room, then working with the after image to try and recreate what i've just seen tends to work. Not sure if these random ideas will help, but it's basically what I do. The key for me really is not having the focus of your eyes shrink down as if you are looking at a screen on the inside of your eyelids. But to let your eyes focus as if they are looking into the distance behind them. It seems to flip a mental switch and make the process easier.

[Shift]

I know exactly what you mean about focusing a bit beyond in order to see visualizations 'in the real world', kind of where they'd belong if there was something there. Yes, this is exactly what I do when I visualize.

[Wildman]

The key to it for me, is to not try to imagine the image on the dark space between your eyelid and eyeball (which seems to be the default for me) but to imagine where things would be if your eyes were open. So you're looking out into the space beyond your eyelids. I know exactly what you mean about focusing a bit beyond in order to see visualizations 'in the real world', kind of where they'd belong if there was something there. Yes, this is exactly what I do when I visualize. Agreed, excellent tip.

[yuriythebest]

I know exactly what you mean about focusing a bit beyond in order to see visualizations 'in the real world', kind of where they'd belong if there was something there. Yes, this is exactly what I do when I visualize. hmm, I've just started this visualization thing but is seems to help immensely with lucids even though currently I am not that good at "seeing" stuff. Yeah, I noticed that just looking at the blackness in front of your eyes and trying to conjure up something there is not the way to go- though I wouldn't say I look to the distance, I think I get the best results when I look inwards, so to speak- yeah the third eye thing. And NO, it's not "new age" it's very oooold age and existed for thousands of years.

[firereaction]

hmm ive only had about 2 lucid dreams the first i had gone through four different dreams the last was lucid and i didnt visualize at all. i tested my lucidity by turning my dining room table into a chair. i literally watched it slowly morph into a chair.