*MORALITY* ARGUE HERE

[nathant1310]

all over the forums people are saying things like you should ask to have sex with people in dreams , violence in dreams is not good etc. personally i think that its ur mind and your not harming anyone but I wanna know wat you guys think

[Syntex]

well thats just it, it is your mind... so what ever you think is morally right or wrong your self will probably agree... so if you think its right to rape someone in your dream... its not wrong... its your world.. you make the rules. Morality is relative to your state of mind in the dream. -Daniel

[Howie]

Doesn't it stand to reason that if you act out an immoral act in your dreams that you have at some point thought about this act while your awake or in a daydream? Even though there is no physical side effects towards anybody in the real world some people believe that the side affects of acting out violence, sex etc in your lucid dreams could have some side effects on your concious decissions during your waking life. Others believe that acting out these actions could be a release, which would inturn help to counter act your violent or immoral thoughts while your awake. But isn't being in your concious mind and being awake one in the same as far as choice?

[Seeker]

In a non-lucid dream, you are at the will of your subconcious. In a lucid dream, your conciousness is in control and therefore in my opinion, morality applies. Here is a test for you: Go up to your sunday school teacher and explain to him/her about lucid dreaming. Then tell him/her that you like to rape, murder, and pilliage in your lucid dreams. Are you hesitant to do so? Perhaps it is your concious letting you know that morality applies there also. I'll return to this topic later, i've got a lot on my plater today and need to get off my butt and moving this morning

[Rev. Pastora]

It never occurrs to me to act any differently than I would in real life, but then most of the dreams where I realize I'm dreaming are in very realistic settings, with the people I don't know IRL still seeming somehow familiar. It may be that I just haven't had the chance, and as my ability increases, so will my options. I still don't see where I'd do anything I wouldn't do normally in regards to violence. Defense, yes. Malicious, no. As for morality, I have seemed to maintain my waking standards.

[Seeker]

Good for you Rev! Lucid dreaming is a consequence free environment. You can rape, pillage, do anything you want with nobody knowing anything about it and no chance of being arrested. Lucid dreaming is a true test of ones beliefs and convictions. Think about it, how many of you would take the person that is the object of your desire if you knew you could get away with it?

[Kaniaz]

It's your dream, nobody is going to get hurt for real. Go wild, laws, morality, and the like do not apply in your dreams. If you let yourself be governed by all this in your own *mind*, you might as well be a sheep. Maintain your own freedom in your dreams, at least. -my opinon (no angsty goverment-are-evil shit intended)

[WaveShaper]

I was just thinking, if you do something in your lucid dreams which you would NEVER do while you are awake, wouldnt it be easier to do when awake, now that uve done it. For example, at school I was always a good guy and I was afraid of getting detentions. However, one day I did something naughty (by accident, may I add) and I got a detention. After that detention i was like "hey, they suck, but I know what its like" so I didnt care what I did at school really as I lost the fear of getting in trouble, the more i got in trouble. So, basically, wouldnt that be the same with Lucid dreams and being awake? You break that fear. So maybe its not so clever to do rape, murder etc in dreams cos it could lead you to be more violent. thats my young view lol

[Kaniaz]

Violent video games make it easier to kill things, etc, because you're used to killing. But we don't ban them because they're well, imaginary. Dreams are just more vivid, on the same level you could call them a game really. You can turn them off. They don't really have consequences outside of the game/dream. Should we ban games, too? And dreams? I mean it's just your brain at the end of the day, go wild in your dreams. Or should you not crack and go wild in your dreams, and instead crack and go wild in real life, causing real hurt? yeah. done ranting now

[Seeker]

Ultimately, it's about what is right and wrong. How can you be pure of heart while awake and still have lucid dreams in which you allow yourself to run wild? If in a lucid dream, you conciously allow yourslef to rape and murder, how is this different than doing it while awake? It is still YOU! YOUR consoiuness, mind, soul, whatever that is committing the deed. Where does the difference lie? True, nobody gets hurt in your lucid dream, but what does that say about your character? If you could get away with it in waking life, would you still do it?

[Amethyst Star]

IMO, the test of someone's true character is what they do when no one is watching or around, when there's no one to find out what happened. If you care about your character, you will take this into consideration. If you don't, then you won't. My parents instilled certain values into me and my siblings (for which I'm grateful) and I'd also feel like I was betraying them by consciously doing something that went against those values. ^----- my 2 bits (25 cents) -Amé

[Rakkantekimusouka]

I tend to eschew conflict all together, awake or asleep... I know you should face your fears, but you should also know your limitations. If I thought that it would be water over the dam for me to be violent in my LDs, then I never would even lean toward any sort of situation like that...

[Rev. Pastora]

A lot of the stuff I read, Castaneda, Ruiz (4 Agreements), among others, all lead me to believe the line between the real world & your dream world becomes more arbitrary as you become more & more proficient. I wouldn't want to one day find myself able to exist in another world, only to have it littered with my victims. Picture a DV sci-fi where students of Kaniaz & students of Seeker are in a shared dream, in a battle of good vs. evil.

[Kaniaz]

Ultimately, it's about what is right and wrong. How can you be pure of heart while awake and still have lucid dreams in which you allow yourself to run wild? If in a lucid dream, you conciously allow yourslef to rape and murder, how is this different than doing it while awake? It is still YOU! YOUR consoiuness, mind, soul, whatever that is committing the deed. Where does the difference lie? True, nobody gets hurt in your lucid dream, but what does that say about your character? If you could get away with it in waking life, would you still do it?[/b] But aren't dreams just like a video game (except they're more real, and take place inside your head). People die in video games - you can get ones where you shoot people in the head, kill old women and stuff (vice city i guess). You can't rape them (obviously), but you're consciously pulling the trigger. It's all imaginary - you should be allowed to do whatever you want inside your own head. It's just like a game. Do whatever, have a bit of freedom. Nevermind morales. But it *does* matter in real life. If you kill somebody in real life, there is actual pain inflicted. A family suffers a great loss. But in a video game, it's just an little routine gone. In a lucid dream, it's just an little image disappearing (I suppose). It can provide release for people too. I'd rather that, say, somebody slightly on the edge raped and pillaged to their heart's content in a lucid dream. It might prevent them from doing it in real life - because they can "get their fix" without consequences in an dream, and since they're doing that, they could never end up shooting somebody in real life. A bit like those times when you really feel you want to hurt somebody - say, a co-worker who is an complete asshole. They say something, and you barely contain your violence. When you get home and go to sleep, you can dream away about punching them a bit, then wake up feeling content, because you know whatever they say in real life, you can just kick them and smack 'em in a dream. Stops you from boiling over, or so. I think everybody in the world has probably had a dream of killing somebody - with a degree of consciousness. I know I have, and I think I'm perfectly sane. I'd never kill anybody in real life. I can't remember what it was I killed, but I've killed something and thought "YEAH! KILL IT, WOO!" in my dream. I like the fact I can do anything in them, and it truly does not matter. It's just a realiastic game, it says nothing about my character - I just like to be free, espcially in my own brain. I think there is a big difference between killing people in dreams and killing something for real. I will leave it up to people to draw upon why (ie: they're real people?!?!) I was just about to make another point, damnit. I forgot what it was. *thinks*. Can't remember. i'll post it later if I remember, damn this memory. but yeah. Maybe this was it (i can't remember what it was i forgot ): It's fine to kill in a game or dream. No pain is involved. It's an illusion. No families really get hurt. You know you are not inflicting pain for real. You are a normal person. If you kill in real life, you are hurting somebody for real. It is horrible, families get scarred for life. You know you are inflicting pain for real. You're a bit of a dodgy person. There's a big difference, IMHO. But this is a topic nobody will ever completely agree on, so I think i've said all that I believe for this now...long post for me.

[Kaniaz]

Originally posted by Rev. Pastora Picture a DV sci-fi where students of Kaniaz & students of Seeker are in a shared dream, in a battle of good vs. evil. * (double post, but this was made after the one above was done - it was made in mid post, yea) Haha, that's a good idea. *envisions lightsaber pwnage star wars type stuff *

[Sesquipedalian Dreams]

I agree almost completely with kaniaz. In the real world, i am an honest law abiding citizen. Ive never stolen something, even if i knew i could get away with it. yadda yadda blah. People dont feel guilt in video games. Rightly so, it isnt real. The only problem is that in dreams, you are yourself (unless you are an advanced LDer), in video games you arent you. You are a Space Marine killing covenant soldiers. In vice city, your some badass guy, who can beat up old ladies. But in your dreams, you represent yourself. But i still think that since it isnt real, and doesnt represent the real world, that it is perfectly ok to do almost whatever you want in dreams. You might have a problem if you start doing some truly grotesque things, but hey, better you do them in dreams than in real life One can make the Matrix argument: "if real is only signals in your brain..." then arent dreams just as real as the waking world? But come on, reality as we know it is more real than any dream that I have had, even if i didnt realize it at the time.

[Scruffy]

When dreaming, I try to avoid doing anything that distresses a dream character, unless in self defense. This includes things like attacking, raping, bullying, etc. There are two reasons I have for this. The first has been brought up already: I feel that it's just wrong. To some extent, I think habits developed while dreaming to cross over into the real world. The second reason is that seeing others in distress causes me to feel the same way, particularly in dreams. In waking life, I'm rather empathetic, but in dreams, all the characters are really a part of me, so the feeling is amplified. In the end, hurting dream characters is just hurting myself. Now, thats just my personal take, and what I choose to do. I don't believe that anyone should attempt to impose guidelines for LD actions any more than they should ban video games (and I love my videogames). Every idividual has the right to choose what he thinks, and it would be a sad day if that right were taken away. It's sort of like religion: you're free to have your own view, advocate it to others (within reason), follow it as you see fit, but what path someone chooses to follow is their choice alone.

[Mickeys_Elbow]

I'm one who believes that what you do in LDs (or even just dreaming in general) makes it easier for you to do those things in real life. After a while I think a person could possibly be convinced that they are dreaming while in reality, and do things that they normally wouldn't. I know a lot of people have had dreams and done RCs and been sure that they are awake, and there are always 2 sides to any coin...

[mustachecake]

[quote] well thats just it, it is your mind... so what ever you think is morally right or wrong your self will probably agree... so if you think its right to rape someone in your dream... its not wrong... its your world.. you make the rules. Morality is relative to your state of mind in the dream. -Daniel Well if it's an LD, why would you rape somebody? If it's an LD the other person should willingly want to do anything you want them to do, so I think it's morally wrong to rape somebody in a dream.

[mustachecake]

Yes in my only induced lucid dream, I shot somebody. I'm no psychopath or killer in real life, but in my dream I would enjoy just killing the people I hate. I wouldn't tell them "why" I killed them, no discussion, just BAM shoot 'em right in the face. There are kids in my school whom I hate very much.

[dream-scape]

Originally posted by Seeker In a lucid dream, your conciousness is in control and therefore in my opinion, morality applies. I'm not sure I agree with this statement. If in fact "in control" then yes I could agree; however, lucid does not equal control, IMO. Being lucid just means being consciously aware of dreaming, and does not necessarily mean or imply control. I often have lucid dreams where my awareness is very high, but have absolutely no control. I can't even wake myself up without a great deal of effort in these dreams. They just play out like a movie I am watching, kind of, except I know the movie is my dream. Also, even if in control, I'm not sure it is so easy to say that "morality" applies. In many other lucid dreams, the conscious memories of my waking life are nonexistent. I have the memories, genetics, and background of the particular character I am (yes I am myself, but not exactly the same self as in waking life. I've lived a different life in a different world). At that point in time, morality from waking life doesn't really exist, how can it be applied? What does exist are the memories and consciousness of the dream character. The morality of the dream character applies in cases like this. Ultimately that dream character is a product of your sub-consciousness. The character was created, and then you realize it was created; but everything that made that character what it is, is still there - the memories, the background, the morality - of that particular character, not necessarily of your waking self. I just don't see realization of dreaming equating to a realization of your waking self, just because I often will have a lucid dream in which the full consciousness of the waking self is nonexistent or very fragmented with only small bits blending into the character's consciousness - like something you wanted to remember to do in the dream. But yes I have on a rare occasion experienced a lucid dream in which the full consciousness of the waking self is also realized, and yes I would agree in this case your waking self's morality applies - or at least plays a role. But at least for me, this type of lucid dream is not the most common, and really kind of rare. Much more common for me are ones where the dream character's consciousness remains fully intact with the realization of "living a dream," and the waking self's consciousness either nonexistent (suppressed I suppose) or a very fragmented integration with only a few coherent thoughts from that self remaining in tact (usually a task or goal).

[TygrHawk]

Originally posted by dream-scape But yes I have on a rare occasion experienced a lucid dream in which the full consciousness of the waking self is also realized, and yes I would agree in this case your waking self's morality applies - or at least plays a role. But at least for me, this type of lucid dream is not the most common, and really kind of rare. And yet for me, that's the ONLY kind of LD I've ever had. I'm always myself, and fully conscious. Since I find no enjoyment in causing harm to people, whether I like them (or even know them) or not, I would not want to do this in a LD either. Not really a question of morality -- I just don't have any desire to do it. As for sexual relations, I agree with the earlier poster who said that if you are in control, you can just make the other person(s) be receptive to the idea -- it always seems to work for me! 8)

[Alric]

I put no but now that I thought about it some, maybe I should of put yes. I never even thought of the little stuff I some times do because they don't seem important. I wouldn't say I am evil in dreams but clearly I can some times be rude. Of course I would only be acting rude if it was in real life, as a dream character doesn't care what I do. Some of you said you kill people in self defence right? Well that is still killing. What if you believe in real life you have no right to kill anyone, even in defence? Should you then allow your dreams to torment you? I guess the next thing will be, your a bad person if you don't say please and thank you to dream characters? I wonder how many do that now? I bet most of you think that would be silly? I personlly think, you have to say thank you to dream character, if you believe in treating them like real people. After all, you can't check your morals in dreams if you also get to decide what counts and what doesn't. I say do whatever you want in a dream. Its just like a game, a movie or a story. You can be anyone or anything you want to be. Its kind of unfair if you can do anything you want in a normal dream but then if you become lucid, you have to limit yourself. Maybe you want to be a monster and eat people in your dream, I doubt thats going to make you want to eat people in real life. Maybe you want to be an evil scientist and blow up the world? Are you going to lose your morals and try to blow up the world? I doubt it. Maybe your a vegetarian in real life and you used to eat steak all the time. Would it be wrong to sneak a bite in a dream? Did you give up on your morals because you ate meat in a dream? I don't think so. Dreams can't effect your conscious mind. Dreams only effect your subconscious mind and subconsciously you already want to do all that bad stuff anyway. Or are you telling me you never had a normal dream where you did something wrong?

[Syntex]

Exactly, don't worry about morals. My example of raping someone is just an example I don't know who would want to, but the point is, it isn't wrong to do so(if you don't think its wrong), since your not raping a real person, for all you know raping someone in a dream could symbolically be reconnecting you to a part of yourself... stop being silly and realise that dreams have no meaning morally, they are symbolic of the parts of you. If however you are in a obe OR some kind of spiritual realm, then be moral... in your own dreams don't worry about it. Morals are all about doing what is right for the greater character of ourselfs and others. Dreams use immoral acts to diffuse our want to do it in real life, it releases tension. It hurts no one else to kill someone in a dream. It doesn't hurt you either, because that usually means your changing something for the better... Don't take dreams literally all the time, killing doesn't necessarily equate to kiling. Now grantite some times doing immoral acts in dreams is a bad thing, you can tell if you feel guilt or pain in doing so. Just be aware that most of the things we do in dreams, are natural and needed psychologically. -Daniel You know some people think that morallity doesn't even exist in real life...

[whoeverwearevox]

I dont do anything violent or immoral in my LDs because i feel that it is another reality, my own reality. I always treat my DCs like they're real people, because how do i know that they arent real in their own world? Again, personal acceptance of moral/immoral actions applies. My dreams are always in the same "world". I've never had a dream that completely goes against everything in a previous dream, and i often see the same people in my dreams. DC are reccuring in my dreams and some of them have a bad temper and i end up defending myself against an attack, but that's in self defence. Again, do what you feel is right, i'm going to keep my 2nd reality a peacefull one. Vox