WILD vs DILD lucidity, night vs. morning

[Onieronaut]

I was interested to read a dialogue between two more or less contentious parties debating the difference, if one exists, between Lucid Dreams and Out of Body Experiences. Maybe someone can point me in the direction of the continued research into this issue and differences between these two states. My question specifically, and what I was researching when I found this, is, "If you fall asleep directly into a lucid dream, (or maybe out of body state) does this have some bearing on whether it is one or the other? I've had a series of experiences throughout my life of falling directly asleep into a lucid state of some kind, I'm dreaming because I'm asleep and I know it, and some similarities exist in some of the experiences. They are often surreal or even hyperreal, sometimes I'm in the bed where I fell asleep, but with changes to the environment. A few of these occurred after I started to dabble in techniques to induce OBE's and in the subsequent experiences I was semi-paralyzed in the bed I fell asleep in. Others in other places, (childhood home) and also semi-paralyzed. Lately, this has occurred a few times but without paralysis or near paralysis (like ultra-weighted limbs) and I'm not lying in the bed I fell asleep in. The most succinct question I have is, when you fall asleep directly into a dream, I've heard the term 'hypnagogic state" used, what does this suggest? I'm out of my body or in a lucid dream? Also, and I'm not sure anyone can definitively have the answer to this, "Is one or the other more possibly, objectively, "real" as in the interactions with world and other people/beings truly happening? factors: I know I'm sleeping and often know details such as, where I am living, current general trends, what year it is, where my body is asleep (but not necessarily aware of my body), etc. Also, these are memorable experiences, almost all of which are still with me. The main reason I am interested is that I had a dream of this nature, that had a series of false awakenings, one of which I was laying in the bed I was asleep in with no differences to the room and I saw myself walk into the room and look down at myself. Besides scaring the crap out of me, this was the only time, it occurred to me at that moment, that I've seen myself as others see me (with my own eyes, not reflected in mirror, video, photo). If you can shed some light, I'm interested in feedback and further sources of info on the OBE/LD dialectic/debate. As I've explored the literature on this subject available on this website I've realized that this doesn't fall outside of the sub-categories of LD at all. Now I have a new question. I've had both kinds of LD, those that arise from discrepencies between RL and Dreams (DILD) and falling directly into a LD from wakefulness(WILD). Does one have a more prophetic quality, or is more akin to OBE? My morning LDs are normally light in nature and much less grave or dark, while those that occur when I lay down to sleep at night are sometimes very unsettling, even terrifying. What do you all think?

[Onieronaut]

OK, darn, reading on it seems the consensus is that 'Middle of the night' is the earliest REM state available to start LD. Is it not possible to slip into REM sleep before "5-6 hours" of sleep as it reads in the tutorial? Could this be like the 'Nap' option but just occur when you go to bed at night? I don't even have any responses and I'm adding more questions. Anyway, I don't want to confuse things or run over ground that has already been plotted out by the folks did all the work to put this info together. Off to bed. Ha ha ha.

[Perlinfalcon]

I am surely not an expert here, but I think it might be possible to fall directly into REM earlier if your sleep patterns are such that you are not able to get enough REM sleep each night. Like if you are not getting enough sleep your body will compensate by sending you into REM sleep earlier. As far as OBE versus LD, you are right in that it is an area of debate. But falling directly into a dream from a waking state tends to create OBE-like effects. An explanation for this is that the dreaming mind is aware enough to know that you are still in bed. So when it creates the dream environment, it will be similar to the one you were sleeping in. Or another familiar sleeping environment. I have this happen to me every time I've had a WILD. I always start the dream in my bedroom. Except the one time I WILDed in a tent. I started the dream in a room the color of the tent. That was the best my brain could do in recreating my real environment.