A method (Interrupted Sleep Audio Method) for lucidity for those who can't get up to WBTB or newbies

Kia-ora / hello - thought I would post about a method I have been using which currently is giving me a pretty effective rate of lucidity. I call it the Interrupted Sleep Audio Method (I-AM or IS-AM). I wanted to share it as I thought it might be useful for people unable (or unwilling :lol: ) to get out of bed for a WBTB or for newbies who are struggling to get lucid. I am profusively sorry in advance if this post is too long, or if you try and method and don't like it! It works well for me and I just wanted to share.


The Basics
I do everything I can to avoid disturbing/annoying my wife (and not just during the day but also at night!:nono:). So I don't get up out of bed to do this, and its all done silently. Before bed (unknown to my wife) I stick a small pair of $1 ear buds inside my pillow slip and attach them to a small mp3 player. The mp3 player has a short audio track that repeats and says in my own voice that 'the reality check is successful' to relax and 'keep looking for the vibe'. I attach the mp3 player to a sweat wrist band. As I get in bed I place a vibrating alarm clock on my wrist and attach the mp3 player to my pj bottoms. The vibration on my wrist wakes me up silently after 6 hrs of sleep, or at least 1 30mins before my workday alarm is due to go off. I don't get up, I just set the alarm to vibrate on a low setting for 2 secs every 24mins or so and place it against my ankle. I then transfer the mp3 player with the audio on it and attach it to the sweat wrist band on my hand so it stays in place whilst I'm sleep with my thumb resting on the button which turns it on. I play the audio track once and centre my ears over the ear buds in the pillow. Then I return to sleep, sometimes this will be immediately (within a minute or two of setting things up), sometimes I won't be till after the first vibe goes off after 24mins. When the vibe goes off several things might happen:

a) most commonly I get 'normally' woken up subtley by the vibration going off, I stay still but depress my thumb, this activates the audio - I listen to it, focusing especially on the words, turn the audio off and return to sleep with hardly moving...or
b) I depress the audio button - but the audio is garbled or makes a beeping sound - I realise this is a FA and am lucid....or
c) the vibe is incorporated into a dream - ideally I do a RC and become lucid

80% of the time its a) the vibe wakes me up - I do the audio reality check/message and return to sleep and by doing this I have a very high chance of having a DILD within 1 30mins of starting the process. If I can sleep in longer I've got a chance of multiple lucid dreams.


Results -
Over the last 7 weeks I've done this method identically 19 times mostly within a 90minute time frame, I got lucid 15 of those mornings (79%), and on a couple of those mornings I got multiple lucid dreams (generally when I had 2 hrs from waking to play with) - in total I got 16 LD's total from those 19 attempts (84%).

On 2 nights I accidently failed to set the alarm on repeat mode and so woke up and returned to sleep with the intention to get lucid, but failed to get lucid at all - these 'control' nights suggest it is the method and not my intention which is working (those were frustrating!).

In contrast to the above my baserate LD rate without using any method is zero! I am not a 'natural' lucid dreamer. I have tried other methods to get lucid and have had limited success but with nowhere the success of this method.


Of interest - of this 19 LD's almost all are DILD's - which suprised me. I had developed the method to try and get the vibration incorporated into my dreams (EILD) and the vibration has indeed been incorporated a couple of times, with lucidity sometimes following. I have also had 1 WILD in the process of returning to sleep after doing the audio check. But the vast majority of the LD's are 'normal' DILD's. The method (to my mind) works by increasing the brains awareness through repetitive awakenings, with the audio acting both as a reality check and a way to prevent desensitization to the vibration signal and a way to pick up FA's and reinforcing the awareness and focusing ones intention on the task, it requires no visualization or particular thought - you just listen and the words get reinforced in your mind. So when I return to REM I either just realize something is obviously dreamlike and become lucid quickly (generally without the need to do a reality check) or I find I am thinking about lucid dreaming and then it dawns on me this IS a dream and I become lucid. The vibration cue is subtle enough to not be jarring and won't disturb a sleeping partner, neither will the audio as the ear buds are tiny. The fact you hardly move to activate the audio (I return to sleep with my thumb on the button) means you can return to REM sleep very quickly - but note the intention is NOT to DIELD, it is simply to listen carefully to the audio track.


I like this method - because a) its working
b) it works without me having to get up, and I don't feel especially tired after doing it
c) I can do it even on the mornings I have to get up at 6.20am to go to work, I just set the initial alarm to wake me up at 4.50am. I generally don't do it on consecutive nights if I'm working. I also often do it after I've had 2 glasses of wine and that seems to have no adverse effect (as long as its NZ white wine ha ha!).


Anyway - hope this of some interest to anyone! And sorry for a long post!
Cheers - T

Congratulations on inventing your own EILD! Your success rate so far is amazing. :goodjob2:

I like the idea of using vibrations as a trigger. What device are you using for the vibrating alarm?

This looks quite promising. How long is your audio recording?

Hi Verre - thanks for you comment and congrats on your wings! I had a look at the dreams that got you them - pretty epic! :) To answer your question - I use a small vibrating alarm called the 'Invisible Clock II' - its very small and light and customisable. Its quite a cool experience to have a signal you've programmed in real life be incorporated directly into the dream and get you lucid - a direct EILD - as close as you can get I guess to sending a message 'to the other side' - but most of the LD's I've gotten through this tech have been DILD's and the clock is essentially just a way of quietly interrupting my sleep on a very regular basis.

Dahaka - regarding the audio - it lasts around 8-10 secs in length, so not long. I guess you could think of it as an autosuggestion, focusing your intention as you fall back into sleep (as well as raising your alertness and acting as a reality check to pick up FA's).

Hope this helps -thanks for the questions - cheers - T

I used this method this morning and got lucid through it again (yay!) so I thought it might help if I worked through how it happened as the method might sound a bit more involved than it is. I went to bed around 11.00pm and set my vibrating alarm for 6 hours, it woke me up at 5.05am (out of REM sleep) and I immediately set it to go off for 2 secs every 22 minutes and tied it against my ankle. I then played the audio on my mp3 player once (telling me that this was a 'successful reality check, to relax and rest and keep looking for the vibe' - this last bit means - to be alert) and whilst it was playing I centred my ears over the buds in my pillow and switched the audio off with my thumb and returned to sleep.

I went into a light sleep - dozing and the vibe went off 22 minutes later at 5.27am and I stayed still, played the audio once - listening carefully to the words without moving or opening my eyes other than the slight movement of my thumb to turn it on and off.

I dropped more quickly into deeper sleep after this - this time into deeper NREM until the next vibe went off 22 mins later at 5.49am and again I stayed still and played the audio once - listening carefully to the words and returned to sleep.

At this stage I went from NREM into REM after a few minutes as I had a dream which went on for a few minutes and in which I became lucid when I realized an oddity in the dream ('an insect attacking my head'). I didn't require a reality check as as soon as I thought how improbable this was it was obvious that I was in a dream. After becoming lucid I spun to stabilize but unfortunately lost the dream into the void and woke up (doohhh - I was hoping this was last chance to get the TOTM! I'm not great at stabilization but that's a separate issue! :cheeky: ). I stayed still after the void ended hoping to drop back into REM and get another DILD and about 5 mins later the vibe went again, pinning the LD to around 6.05am, 1 hour after I initiated the process. I did the audio again, but my mind drifted to work stresses and after a bit I had to get up.

So the LD was a DILD, and it occurred after 1 hour after I started the attempt - 3 cycles 22 mins apart of interrupted awakenings and playing the 8 sec audio each time (one at 5.05, 5.27, 5.49am) - this is pretty typical of how the tech tends to work 80% of the time and means I've now had 17 LD's on the 20 times I've used the method (the last one prev to this was 2 days ago which prompted me to write the initial post 2 days ago).

Hope this might make the understanding of the method easier :)

Thanks for the detailed explanation! I definitely need to find a method with more reliability. My LDs do tend to be quite long and elaborate once I do get lucid, but getting there is the hitch... these days little short of hours-long WBTBs seems to do the trick, and that is just not practical on a regular basis! SSILD and FILD gave great results at first but I got habituated to them almost immediately. EILD is just about the only thing I haven't tried at this point, so I think I'm going to shop around for one of these little vibrating alarms.

This gave me good idea for people who don't have this timer of yours. I will try this EILD by putting my phone into long socks and set it up to vibe alarm. I already downloaded app for it. :)

And about the sound message, is that really neccessary? Would you try it without?

How many times out of 17 tries was it : c) the vibe is incorporated into a dream - ideally I do a RC and become lucid? c - is what I would like to achieve

Hi Nfri - in the method I described above (the original post) I just refer to a vibrating alarm - I'm sure using this feature on your phone would work well - its a good idea -although the clock I use is good in that you can vary the strength of the vibration - but really the key bit there is that your sleep is interrupted on a very regular basis - audio or other natural methods would be fine too. I found I still got multiple lucid dreams (not included in the above tally) when I stayed in a hotel room and got woken up every 45mins or so by my daughter grinding her teeth for several hours! She would wake me up, I'd lay still, du the audio bit in my head and drop back to sleep and DILD's would follow. The interruption bit is the most key bit (I feel) - using the vibe just makes it happen reliably and silently, but the audio is important to enhance your chances - but reinforcing your intention and also acting to increase awareness (and as described below to prevent habituation to the thing waking you up). The vibe is also the benefit - as you were interested in, that occassionally you might get it incorporated into your dream directly - but these are more of a bonus than a staple.

I also have a soft spot for direct incorporation of the vibe signal into the dream - its quite a cool feeling but from personal experience I would be wary of just using the vibe without the audio - and heres why. I did what you're outlining above some 10 months ago, just used a vibration signal on a timer to try and get lucid (with no audio). And it was moderately successful (I think of 19 times 10 LD's approx?) - although again interestingly only half the times were the LD's through incorporation of the signal into the dream, the others (I think) were because of the interruption to my sleep. HOWEVER I rapidly became habituated to the vibe going off and within a few weeks even the strongest signal wouldn't wake me up or get incorporated into the dream. This is because the vibe is going to go off alot of times NREM sleep and unless you actively do something when this happens (like my audio reality check above) you will be teaching your brain to ignore the signal after a while. Using the audio as directed above stops this habituation (in me at least). The downside is that there are less incorporations (but more total lucidity) in the above method. So in the 20 times I've done the above method I've had maybe 3 incorps, 1-2 LD's, because its much more likely the vibe will wake me up - and I am using it on its lowest setting. If you are interested FryingMan has put a link up about a device which is being developed in which a vibrating cue would be delivered when REM sleep was detected. This may resolve some of the habituation issues http://www.dreamviews.com/lucid-aids...neirics-2.html. Of interest too if you read his post in his thread #23 I think he mentions hes used the REM dreamer, a light cue on a timer, and now sleeps through even the brightest signals - having become - in his own words - habituated to the signal. I have also noticed people doing CAN-WILD, which again involves using an alarm to wake up at regular intervals - also mention that they become more 'immune' to the signal after a while of doing it. The method I've mentioned above counteracts this tendency by associating a definite action with the signal going off - preventing passiveness - which is the root cause of desensitization.

Hope this helps - I think my final advice would be - experiment! You'll have fun and probably get some fun incorporations of the vibe even if you just use the vibe by itself. And if you start to notice you're becoming desensitized to the vibe signal then add on what I've described above and it should help.

cheers - T

Hey Tlaloc! I was inspired by your method to buy a programmable vibrating timer for myself, and I used it last night with excellent results!

Here's the part of the dream relevant to the device:

Spoiler for EILD-triggered False Awakening:

After reading about Tlaloc's homebrew EILD technique, I wanted to try something similar, so I compared the devices available on Amazon and settled on the "MotivAider." Although bulky and overpriced, I liked that the vibration length and intensity are fully customizable, and the fact that it has an option to go off at random intervals. It recently arrived in the mail, so I read the instructions before going to bed last night, but decided to wait until my WBTB to program it, since I figured the task would help reawaken my mind as well as focus my intention.

Went to bed at 1:30am, woke naturally at 5am. I realized my motivation wasn't as high as I had anticipated because I remembered how much work I needed to get done before the weekend was over, and reasoned that sleeping in after a long WBTB and writing a dream report if successful would really cut into my available time. However, the MotivAider beckoned, so I decided to do a very short WBTB, just long enough to program it and set it up before going back to sleep. I set the vibration to its minimal length (two seconds), programmed it to go off in random intervals up to 45 minutes, and placed it in the case of my leg pillow, where I should be able to feel it through the fabric. (I am a side sleeper and always use an extra pillow between my knees.) I thought the vibration would be too disruptive if it was near my head, so I wanted it somewhere closer to my feet. I returned to bed at 5:20am. I lay awake for a while with anticipation, and eventually decided I had better also put the vibration on its weakest setting, so I reprogrammed the device by the light of my phone.

At some point I must have drifted off to sleep, and then I felt the device go off. But something had gone wrong: the vibrations were pulsing repetitively without cease. I tried to ignore them, but they seemed to be going on for over a minute. I decided I must have programmed the device incorrectly, so I got up and took it out of the pillow, setting it aside. Tomorrow I could figure out what the problem was.

Shortly after that I was walking through the house, and I noticed something odd. Glancing through the sliding glass door in the kitchen, I saw that the water level of the river next to the house had risen way too high. In fact, the water was coming right up to the base of the door, like it was on the verge of flooding in. This observation was so startling that it made me realize I must be dreaming... maybe the EILD had worked after all! Had I ever really gotten up, or had it all been an FA? [...]

Sure enough, the whole experience turned out to be a false awakening: when I got up to start my report (at 6:10am), I discovered that I had never removed the device from the pillow like I remembered doing. And this indicates that it must not have malfunctioned after all, and that the extended sequence of vibrations I felt was most likely an experience of time dilation conditioned by the dream state.

Full DJ account here: October 5, 2014, "If there's water near the house, it's a dream."

I hope it continues to work this well or else I'll have to figure out ways to counter habituation, but it definitely works in principle!

He tino pai - that's GREAT Verre! Wow! :goodjob2: A lot of the dreams I've had where the vibe has been incorporated it has ended up changed slightly - frequently repeating as you found. Its cool to have someone else discovering similar stuff :) I'd love to hear how your experiences continue. I often pause and 'listen' to the vibe when it goes of (I know I'm mixing senses but that's how it feels!) - I use a single 2 sec pulse, and when it goes off I 'listen' to it, if it repeats multiple times or if theres a noise associated with it like a beep then this is almost certainly a sign I'm dreaming and I often won't even have to do a RC to confirm it. Your explanation of time dilation is interesting. Its fascinating to see how the signal is 'almost' directly incorporated, but at the same time morphed by the sleeping brain - kind of like a tourettes effect!

I did occasional day training with the device just to reinforce doing a RC every time it went off - I found it quite fun as it mimicked well how the vibe works in the dream - the vibe goes off in the middle of everyday activities - having a haircut, having a conversation, at work, which mimics well how it can occur in the dream - at any point - and this gets you good at doing a RC whenever the vibe goes off - regardless of the activity. The ones which were hardest to catch in many ways were like the FA you had - dreaming about programming the device, because its hard to remember do a RC then even in real life.

I'd like to know more about your device - I'll PM you if that's ok? - and again CONGRATS! I am really excited someone is doing this too - I am very keen to team up and share results - best of luck Verre - cheers - T

Another good result from the vibrating alarm, despite a minimal WBTB. This was a very unusual experience in that this time the alarm actually seems to have worked through anticipation alone, because based on the timing I don't think it ever even went off!

Spoiler for MotivAider as EILD device:

Ritual: Second try with the vibrating timer, successful but strange experience. This time it seemed to work not so much from going off (in fact I doubt it ever did), but because my anticipation of the trigger kept my mind alert during the process of falling asleep—to the point where I thought I was still awake long after I had evidently slipped into dream.

It's becoming apparent that anticipation can serve the same function as motivation. Actually my motivation was relatively low, for the same reason as last time: it is the busiest part of my work week and I realized that I wasn't sure I wanted to have to spend a long time writing up my dream report if successful. I went to bed a little after 12:30am, and woke up naturally around 5:40. (I checked the clock but can't recall the precise time, I think it was somewhere between 5:37 and 5:43.) I decided it was too late to do full WBTB and recognized my lack of motivation, so I just shoved the MotivAider in my pillow and went back to bed with no further technique, letting things take their own course.

Although normally I would fall back asleep in seconds or minutes at most after such a brief WBTB, I noticed that now I was oddly wakeful... it seemed like just waiting for the device to go off, even though it was set so that it wouldn't trigger initially until 45 minutes had passed, was keeping me awake. After a few minutes trying to get comfortable I grabbed the sleep mask from my bedside table because I knew the sun would come up soon. I then spent a very long time trying to get back to sleep... or so I thought. In retrospect it is apparent that for much of this period I was experiencing that obscure counterpart of a false awakening, a "false falling asleep" (FFA).

FFA: I think I must have actually fallen asleep very quickly, since a lot of the things I experienced while I thought I was trying to fall asleep turn out to be have been things I dreamed. For instance, at one point I was convinced that I was lying in bed with my body rotated in the opposite direction, my head facing the foot of the bed, but then I fixed this without really moving my limbs... a maneuver that would have been impossible to do physically.

Eventually I decided that I ought to have a back-up EILD method so I tried to program my sleeping mask. I reached up and pried apart the velcro near the top to flick the "on" switch, remembering to hold it down four seconds to enter "nap mode." I couldn't tell if I saw the indicator lights or not... I thought I did, but the impression was vague. Did I have the brightness set too low? Oh well, I don't remember how to change it. I'll just turn it off and turn it back on again to be sure. Hmm, same thing, the lights are vague... I'm not sure if I'm really seeing them or just imagining it. And then I realize... hang on... I'm not even wearing the Remee, this is just an ordinary cloth sleep mask! So I tried to correct the situation by putting my Remee on under the regular mask... and I really thought I had done this until, while writing this report, I began to have doubts and went to check. Sure enough, the Remee hasn't been touched all night! At least I can verify that I was wearing the ordinary mask, since that one has been moved and is now lying on my bedstand where I must have left it after waking up.

At another point in the FFA I even felt the MotivAider finally go off. The vibrations felt lengthened and distorted again. I ignored them since I thought I was still awake, and hoped I would be asleep by the time it went off next. In retrospect I realize I must have dreamed even this, because the MotivAider could not have gone off until 45 minutes had passed (even on random mode it initially counts down the full maximum set interval), and I got up to start writing this report at 6:14am, less than 45 minutes after going back to bed around 5:40... so it is very unlikely that it actually went off in that whole period!

I was getting annoyed with how long it was taking (or so I thought) to fall asleep, and eventually in my impatience I decided to just start "practicing" WILD separations in my imagination. I tried to envision an almost physical pull on my dream body that would tug it up from the lying position into a standing one, and after each repetition of this I imagined myself landing with both feet on the bed with the flourish of a gymnast who has just finished an acrobatic move. It felt at first like I was only visualizing this rather than experiencing it: as though I were just going through the motions, practicing for when I got closer to falling asleep... but before long the sense of immersion set in, and I realized that I was already in a light WILD state. I was surprised that I had been able to move so easily from full wakefulness to full REM, still unaware that I had evidently already been dreaming for quite some time already!

Full DJ entry: October 7, 2014, "Indecisive Witch, Invisible Song"

Thanks TiaLoc for this thread -- I'm very keen to try vibration notifications. The device I currently have is "remee", not "rem dreamer" which is a REM-detecting (eye movement tracking) sleep mask with LED light/beep notification.

And thanks, Verre, for the pointer to the MotivAider....any other recommendations for highly (and easily) configurable vibration devices (preferably small) would be greatly appreciated.

It also inspires me to continue trying sleep interruption. I like the idea of having to do something active to avoid the habituation, I'll have to think of something....

You have quite a clever setup there, I have the same situation about not bothering the wife!

Verre: yes, I believe anticipation is incredibly powerful. The goal-seeking center of the brain is highly activated, like when we have an important meeting we must wake up for or a plane to catch at the airport. The trick is to maintain that high level of anticipation over time. Maybe building up a toolkit of many different kinds of notifications would help, and switching from time to time.

So glad I stumbled on this thread. I think this technique is definitely worth a try, so I just purchased an Invisible Clock II...which seems to have all the bells and whistles I need to experiment with either sleep interruption OR signaling myself to do a reality check at times I KNOW I will be in REM sleep. I have only had two meaningful lucid dreams so far, but thanks to a well-placed digital clock I know the exact times I woke from each, and they were within TWO MINUTES of each other. I'm going to use the Invisible Clock II to vibrate at about 4:08am as I've awoken from my LD's at 4:18am and 4:16am respectively. I should have it in-hand mid-october - a week from now.

DH

Hi Verre! - congrats on your latest lucid (and wings :) ) - I had a very similar dream to yours almost exactly 2 months ago when I restarted playing around with the vibe signalling and first began the method described above. I had a dream the vibe had gone off, so I did a reality check - in my case as above - starting the audio on my mp3 player, but the audio came out all garbled so I realised immediately it was a lucid dream (a failed electronic reality check). After awakening for real shortly after I checked (in real life) the timer on the vibe alarm and found it still had 3 minutes to go in its 24min cycle so the initial vibe had occurred only through expectation! As FryingMan said the anticipation factor is very powerful - but I found this only happened the once, when the novelty and 'weirdness' of using the vibe was still high. Its interesting that you've had 2 incorporations of the vibration (one real incorp, one expectation generated) - but neither time did you do a reality check after the vibe went off! :) you might find it quicker to get lucid from the vibe if you associate the vibe with reality checking - just a thought.

FryingMan - thanks the contribution - the 'partner factor' in lucid dreaming is an under-rated topic I think! Those who are happiest lucid dreaming have the most understanding partners I think :) This tech has worked well for me and its all done without getting up or disturbing my light sleeping wife - at least so far.....
You were asking about the vibe devices - I think there are more and more of these available. Verres sounds very good and customisable. The invisible clock II is also very flexible and is also very small and light, its about the size of a match box. I found it really easy to sleep with and also, crucially to wear in my sock during the day without any one else knowing it was there. That way I could do daytime practice of doing reality check whenever the vibe went off without any one else knowing as its pretty quiet.

DoubleHelix - wow! - you ordered the invisible clock II - cool! I hope it works well for you! It takes a day or so to get used to programming it - and if you wants any more hints or help I will do as much as I can to help - and now Verre is using her device they'll be another opinion as well. Be good to all be experimenting together! My feeling is - it won't be long before you get a lucid from it :) - good luck!

Thanks for sharing. Will try this simple non-expensive method. I'm having trouble staying awake during WBTB or even starting them. I'm too tired after work and my sleep is so important these days.

Hi, Tlaloc:

I'm hoping that Oneierics device will fund on Kickstarter, but in the event that it doesn't, your technique and utilization of a silent, vibrating alarm is inexpensive, clever, and flexible, so plunking down a little bit of money for the Invisible Clock II in the hopes of reaping a benefit was a no-brainer. As you say - it will likely prove useful for all day awareness and day time reality checking as well, so I expect to get use out of it both night AND day. I can't say that about most possessions in my life, even the ones I hold dear, like my guitar! :chuckle:

Again, thanks for the excellent post and clever re-purposing of this inexpensive device. Like the commercial says "Brilliant!" :laughhard:

DH

This is actually a timely thread because I was already starting to look into finding a "little vibrating device on a timer" since I got excited by the Oneirics kickstarter project, and would like to experiment with the vibration as a notification signal....so, again...cool!

Hi DoubleHelix - you said you'd have the clock by mid oct - so not long! You could do some prep in the meantime if you wanted to start early - if you use a phone with a vib function I would probably change this to maybe a short audio tone to alert you of messages/calls etc, because its possible the vibe might get incorporated as a phone vibe if you are already used to this.
The alternative to this if this isn't possible (or desirable) is that you just do a R/C when the phone vibrates as well - that way you're doing more random checks anyway. I had one or two dreams where the vibe came through as though I had my phone in my pocket, so I switched the phone to a tone and then it came through after that just as the clock which made it easier to get lucid.

The clock comes with a clip you can clip to your watch if you want to use it as an alarm to wake yourself up with (say to do a wbtb). To do the actually bit where you are trying to get lucid though I would recommend placing it on your ankle. There are few things in the real world that vibrate your ankle like the clock will, and by associating the ankle vibe with the clock going off it maximises the chance of the vibe being directly incorporated into the dream and spotted by yourself. Verre put her clock in a pillow between her legs whilst sleeping which seemed like a clever way to use it - mediating some of the vibe strength (which initially will seem very strong) - I hadn't thought of that and its sounds like a good option.

the tech I use and you could ready for is pretty simple. I take a pair of old cotton socks (like business socks) and cut the toe bit off so the sock is just a hollow tube with both ends open. I fold the sock in half into iself so theres a space between the sides (like a U) and slip the clock into this and pull the sock on to my ankle. Its very comfy to wear like this under my normal sock at work for daytime practice (without it the plastic gets a bit hot) and at night I put one on my wrist for the wbtb then transfer it to one on my ankle without moving much and disturbing my wife.

Anyway - just a thought! you might come up with a different way of using it which would be better! I would recommend a couple of days of daytime practice setting it to go off every 50mins or so for a few hours during the day at a 5 sec duration on setting 2 strenght and doing a reality check everytime it goes off. That way when it goes off in a dream - no matter how busy the dream is, or how involved you are in the dream story - you'll be trained to do a RC and become lucid!

let me know if you need any more help! By the way I've been continuing the tech as discussed above (I know you might not be doing it that way intially) but still having good success, beyond what I reported above, I've since had another 3 lucids in the last 5 days, 1 WILD 5 days ago, 2 DILD's this morning using the same tech (interrupted sleep with audio/autosuggestion) (but with technical probs - my audio speakers stopped working for 2 nights!). Anyway - have a good weekend to everyone (nice to hear you are interested in this starletdreamer) and good luck DoubleHelix - and thanks FryingMan for the post on the oneirics - hope it gets funded as well. cheers - T

My Invisible clock arrived early! I live only a handful of miles from where it shipped, so I got it this afternoon. I'm shocked at how many functions it has and how complex (and flexible) the alarm options are. Your sock idea is great. Just so happens I have an unmatched white sock I can use. My wife has a special talent for losing solitary socks when she does the laundry. In this case, I can't be mad!

I can see I'm going to have to rely (and not lose!) the instruction sheet. I'll let you know if I encounter any problems. I'm looking forward to employing this device in my LD training. We should keep this thread alive and see how many clever ways people can think of to re-purpose this device to aid in attaining lucidity.

EDIT: hmmmmm....Looks like I have to wake up to turn the vibration alarm off. I was hoping it would vibrate for 20 seconds or so and then stop on its own so that the vibrations would bleed into my dream in a manner similar to the lights on a Remee. A little bummed about that. Looks like you have to manually shut it off with a button press. And that means waking up fully.

You would think with all the complexity built into this device that programming a discrete period of vibration would be an option. Too bad. That inability greatly diminishes the utility of the device IMHO.

EDIT#2: I take it back. It MAY shut itself off after 20 seconds. The instructions aren't exactly clear. There is a "tip" that alludes to a 20 second vibration which may not need to be shut off. If I programmed it correctly I guess I'll find out in a few hours.

DH

Short notification auto-snooze (not needing to touch it to turn it off) is critical -- let us know if you can figure out how to do this. Maybe the other more expensive one has this option? BTW I googled invisiclock and found the instructions online so don't fret losing the sheet. Maybe try contacting the company for clarification about the auto-off.

Yep. It shut itself off after 20 seconds. The vibration isn't overwhelmingly powerful, which is GOOD - although it might just be that the triple A battery I used (not included) was old and weak. Lucky we even had ONE in the house!

I happened to already be awake at the time the alarm vibrated thanks to the callousness of my daughter and her idiot friend who let themselves into my house drunk at 1:00am, then proceeded to talk and walk around the house until 3 am. I was so annoyed I couldn't fall back to sleep, and was still awake at 4am when the vibe happened.

On the PLUS side, I fell asleep eventually, had two awesome long dreams with excellent recall. No lucidity, unfortunately.

I'm gonna exploit this tool. I hope people will suggest possible ways to use it expressly for LD purposes.

DH

OK well that's good about the auto-shutoff, whew!

Ugh about drunk daughter & friend. Let me tell you, though, being pissed does NOT help you get back to sleep and dream. I've learned this the hard way. So now I tell myself, "every sound, every sensation I'm experiencing, serves to relax me more and more. I sink deeper and deeper into relaxation..." and so on. Helps a lot! Meditation is rehersal for these sorts of scenarios, practice it!

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On the PLUS side, I fell asleep eventually, had two awesome long dreams with excellent recall. No lucidity, unfortunately.

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That's fanTAStic. Sageous :sageous: says it best when he says: "Some dreams are fine just the way they are." I treasure my LDs but I have to say my non-lucids are way more interesting most of the time. What makes the lucids so fabulous is the *presence*, the *awareness* of being in the dream. But the plot of the non-lucids and the scenarios and the situations are way more exciting (not to mention I have absolutely no issue with keeping up a non-lucid sex for a good long time [albeit sensation is muted]). I guess I have a long way to go to get LDs at the excitement level of NLDs.

Love all your dreams, including (especially!) the non-lucid ones. Stay "close" to your dreams. Sensei calls it "dream awareness" and I think it's a major thing. Dream awareness + state awareness = lucidity. Dream awareness alone though is awesome!

Using it for LD purposes. Well, in case you haven't thought about it yet: DEILD timer is the obvious thing that comes to mind. At the appropriate time (4-6 hours? 7 hours? depends when you can get back to sleep *quickly*), have it go off every 10-15 minutes for a sleep cycle or two. Heck, try for every 5 minutes if you can. Experiment. You want to be very often roused and fall back right asleep into a dream, lucid.

The other main use is to set it up to be a dream sign. During the day, when it goes off, say to yourself, "there's my dream notification, I'm now lucid in my dream," do a RC or two, and try to keep your awareness raised, that is, become lucid when it goes off [you can be lucid while awake as well as when asleep!]. Then set it to go off when you think you'll be in REM (having a regular sleep cycle or mapped out REM times can be golden here), during the night, and do the same ritual in-dream, and because lucid and enjoy!

Only make sure you always respond to it fully every single time. Never take it for granted, it should always perk you up. If you find your reaction getting dulled, take a break or make it less frequent. React with joy and excitement!

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OK well that's good about the auto-shutoff, whew!

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Yeah, my bad. The directions are more complicated than those for putting together a 10 speed bike! :chuckle:

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Originally Posted by FryingMan

That's fanTAStic. Sageous says it best when he says: "Some dreams are fine just the way they are." Love all your dreams, including (especially!) the non-lucid ones. Stay "close" to your dreams. Sensei calls it "dream awareness" and I think it's a major thing. Dream awareness + state awareness = lucidity. Dream awareness alone though is awesome!

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Agreed! Now that I'm remembering my dreams almost nightly, I find the "story lines" quite amusing. I have taken to writing down just enough information to remember the dream later on when I can write the full narrative. Today I'm catching up on my dream journal (I type it) because it's raining and I'm precluded from doing any outdoorsy stuff.

DH

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Originally Posted by DoubleHelix

Yeah, my bad. The directions are more complicated than those for putting together a 10 speed bike! :chuckle:




Agreed! Now that I'm remembering my dreams almost nightly, I find the "story lines" quite amusing. I have taken to writing down just enough information to remember the dream later on when I can write the full narrative. Today I'm catching up on my dream journal (I type it) because it's raining and I'm precluded from doing any outdoorsy stuff.

DH

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I find that after doing recall for a bit over a year that a quick summary spoken into the voice recorder of my smart phone cements the dream enough in my memory to do a full journal write-up up to a week or even beyond in fairly good original detail. It is worth recording the summaries even if you think your memory is beefy enough to last a few days or more until you have time to journal, because more than once I've completely forgotten fun little dreams that my quick notes brought right back to me.

edit about amusing story lines: oh, yeah. Where do we come up with this stuff? Last night I was flying DO through a giant park of replica mountain scenes from around the world. Including fake mist (made from cotton or some other cloth) hanging from the rock outcroppings. Fabulous stuff.

HeHe...that's pretty good. I'll tell you a small part of mine from this morning. Four high school kids came around, ringing my doorbell looking for donations for the elderly while I was playing my guitar in the house. I insulted them royally through an open window before answering the door, stepping outside, and agreeing to make a donation. They hand me their clip board and I see my current address displayed (typed) in the top far left box. I ask them for some proof or ID of the cause they were collecting for, and they show me a picture. The picture depicts my front door to my old house from ~25 years ago with my niece Jodi and one other female standing on the stoop. The interesting thing was that the picture was animated, like in the Harry Potter movies, and my niece and the other gal were moving inside the picture. I had stepped outside to greet the boys to sign the form regarding my donation, and this afforded me an opportunity to surveil the sky and see what kind of day/weather we had that day. The sky was a deep blue, but there were white X's and check marks in a short vertical cylinder shape which I believed had appeared there because a TV weatherman was marking up the televised weather map at his station, and his markings bled into and became superimposed on the "real" sky. How's THAT for weird???? :cackle:

DH

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Originally Posted by FryingMan

I treasure my LDs but I have to say my non-lucids are way more interesting most of the time. What makes the lucids so fabulous is the *presence*, the *awareness* of being in the dream. But the plot of the non-lucids and the scenarios and the situations are way more exciting

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So true! And part of the problem is that plot seems almost antithetical to lucidity... if I have a lucid dream that does start developing an engaging narrative, my lucidity tends to wane and disappear as I get drawn into the dream events. But even if I were able to maintain it, I suspect being lucid might make the plot less interesting, because I would be too tempted to exert control to make things go my way! The most exciting plotlines revolve around characters who experience a loss of control and have to regain it, or else struggle to maintain their control against difficult odds.

Liked your dream snippet DH! If you haven't already, I am sure you will soon be having dreams where you are discussing lucidity enthusiastically with characters in the dream - totally unaware that it is in fact actually A DREAM! Those ones really hurt when you wake up! WHY didn't I click! :)

Sorry to be late getting back in touch, working all this weekend. The ICII (invis clock II) instructions do look kinda crazy. I am pretty sure the alarm shuts itself off after 20secs unless you deliberately activate the autosnooze. I don't use the alarm, instead I use the timer, its quicker for me as I just set it for 6hrs as I go to sleep, it countdowns, goes off and stays off. But if you are wanting to hit the REM zone you worked out the alarm might be easier. Once set the alarm goes off everyday at that time, until you erase it, or if you don't want to hear it (ie the vibe) then you have to switch the slider on the side to zero.

Teenagers eh?! I've got 2 little children (4+7) and my main problem is getting woken up too early....but won't be long I guess till the pendulum swings the other way and they're keeping me up at night!

I had a thought to run past everyone - it seems most/all the people on this thread are interested primarily in inducing LD's directly using vibration. My initial idea of the thread was really more about using the alarm as a way of silently waking me up on a regular basis and doing an intention technique - with the bonus that sometimes the vibe didn't wake me and got incorporated.

Would it be better to start a new thread - say 'Vibration Induced Lucid Dreaming' in the Lucid Aids bit of this part of the forum - that way other people who might be interested would pick up on it more easily and the discussion could be dedicated to that more directly? Even though I am doing the tech as described in my original post I am happy and keen to contribute to those wanting to use vibration as an EILD and have a bit of research to add if it helps, and so far great contributions from everyone else - Verre, Nfri, FryingMan (congrats on your wings man!), Starletdreamer and yourself DH - but anyone else reading the title of the original thread might be confused as to what we are discussing.

Unfort I've got to go to work right now, frustrating I have to work sat/sun every other week - DH if you want any more help with programming the device let me know, I can always PM you - cheers all - T

Hi Tlaloc!
I discovered you method a few days ago, I am going to give it a serious try (the one you are using - not the vibes alone) and I would appreciate it if you can describe in more detail some aspects of you setup.
Basically, I have already tried this once, but I had some difficulties: My main problem was the position of the earbud. Although I have a quite flat one, it's uncomfortable to sleep with my ear on it. So, whenever the vibration went off, I had to move my head in order to center my ear over it - and when I turned to the other side, it was even more difficult to reach. So, how do you deal with this? Is your earbud comfortable to have your ear on - and you never change position?
Also, in order to have the mp3 on-off button at my thumb, I had to stick it with tape to my fingers.
Right now I have ordered a custom-made wristband connected to a "fingerband" with an attached mp3 holder, but I would like to know your holding tips - and also which mp3 you are using (cause mine needs a firm press on the button for over 5 seconds to power on). Also, do you have the vibrating alarm and the mp3 in the same hand?
Thanks for taking the time to answer - and I will be sure to report my results here!

I was about to ask the same kind of question, and also was about to show you this methode SearcherTMR lol.
I neither didn't understand where exactly is the earplug. on the pillow?
I think my RemDreamer can act to wake me up when I am on REM, since I already use it with the beep sounds for DEILD purpose, but I can add this audio RC/audio suggestion when I am not trying to DEILD.
the question si how exactly is your set up.

Hi Kaan!
Yep, I knew we have a lot in common;)
Well, as I already said, I only tried this once, so I definitely need to fine-tune this. But I am pretty sure it's going to be a highly effective method. That's because :
1. The principle of multiple awakenings has already worked well for me - that's how I achieved my first lucids ever: I used the saltcube timer, and regardless of what everyone here thinks of Nick, this gave me my first lucids when nothing else had worked for many weeks. The problem, of course, was that it was quite annoying and resulted in sleep of very bad quality.
2. The idea of actively doing a RC with the mp3 after every awakening is a pretty interesting one, as I believe that will prevent getting used to and ignoring the vibrations. This allows very gentle vibration to be used and better sleep quality - less sleep disturbance.

About using the REM-dreamer, I wouldn't do it because the beeping sound is not as comfortable as the vibration and the point is to just be repeatedly awakened - not necessarily during REM sleep. But if you do this and have good results, i can follow!:wink:

About my setup, I used a vibrating cell phone (in a wrist band case) for WBTB awakening - as I always do. This produces a quite strong vibration. Then, I attached with tape on my right hand a vibrating watch (gentle vibration) such as I can easily snooze it, and set it to vibrate every 24 mins . On my left I attached the mp3 - with my thumb over the on-off button and the quite flat earpiece over the pillow- but under the pillow cover.
Attachment 8068

Today I received the custom-made bands, so for my next try I will be having them like this:
Attachment 8069

Also, I will use my custom-made, small, quite flat earpieces, normally in-ear and not on the pillow because of the issues I had with targeting:
Attachment 8070

So, that's how it will be, unless Tlaloc has a more interesting idea to use!

Hiya SearcherTMR and Kaan! Sorry for the late replies - I had kinda dropped off the grid.

SearcherTMR - your set up looks very good! I'd really like to hear how you're getting on...but to answer your questions.....I used VERY cheap (£1 shop jobbies) ear buds - small and cylindrical in shape. I tapped them together side to side to increase the volume and taped them to the surface of my pillow, but near the bottom of it. Over the top of them I put a quilted pillow protector and the pillow slip, so the wires just came out of the side. The buds were tapped near the bottom corner of the pillow and for most of the night I slept with my head in the middle of the pillow away from them. Then when I woke from the vibe going off in the morning I set my stuff up and moved my head either over or just to the side of where the buds were (into a position I felt was comfortable enough to return to sleep) at the same time I played the audio once to start the mental preparation (and as a RC) and also to ensure I set everything up ok and I'd centred myself over the buds. I then returned to sleep. I don't move around a lot during my sleep so I just stayed in that position, side sleeping, maybe adjusting my head slightly if the buds got too uncomfy.

The key thing (I felt) was the volume had to be loud enough - as if someone was talking in a normal but strong voice to me. Too quiet and I would fall asleep too quickly and not concentrate on the message. I did think about using a flatter bud - but felt that given the tech was so successful at inducing LD's I didn't really want to change anything - I also wondered if maybe alittle discomfort wasn't a bad thing as it might increase my awareness slightly and thus increase the chance of lucidity. Sometimes these things are funny like that - you try and improve something and it actually ends up solving one problem but creating another! Anyway I think the bits that might help you are that I didn't try and sleep over the buds the whole night, they were just enough off centred to my normal head position that I could avoid them before the wbtb but recentre myself over them after the wbtb.

Your wrist straps look good. I used the vibrating alarm in a sock I cut the toes off and turned inside out to form a slip and had on my wrist to wake me up for the initial wbtb then transferred to a similar sock I had on already on my ankle. I think I did this partly at out of habit (from doing day time RC's where wearing it on my ankle was effectively invisible if I had trousers on and so it became associated in this location with the vibe on ankle = RC) + I found that if I was half asleep and it went of I couldn't remove it - as it was too far on my ankle to pull off. I used to use a novadreamer years ago and despite best intentions would subconsciously remove it during the night due to discomfort. With the vibrating device on my ankle I couldn't do that in order to ignore it.

My mp3 device is a San Disc - it looks similar in size to yours - a small square. I can gear up the audio track and start it and I have to hold down the on/off button for 3-4 sec's to start/stop it. Its not ideal, I have to push down hard with my thumb over the button. I have it in my left hand (even though I am right handed, I think its more comfy as I sleep on my RHS). I have it on a wrist band which I pull over my palm. The San disc has a clip on the back, I clip it onto the wrist band which brings the button close to my thumb, that way when I wake from the vibe I don't have to move my thumb much.

This I think is key - not to have to move much at all, so return to sleep after the audio message/RC is very quick. Kaan, I had (have) a now very old Novadreamer, and I'd thought I'd use the RC button on the masks front as a RC whenever the vibe went off. I tried this but found moving my arm too much woke me up too much (and disturbed my partner), hence I tried the mp3 player - and 'by accident' if you like I thought I'd record a message as the RC, and the combo seemed to work very effectively in inducing lucidity (for me anyway).

Hope this helps! I'd be very interested to see if either of you (or anyone else) has found the tech (or elements of it) useful. Cheers! T

Hi Tlaloc!
Better late than never! ;-)
To tell you the truth I was already used to not getting responses around here on DV - jeffg for example disappeared just after claiming 100% lucidity rate with his setup and I needed his feedback so much for replicating his device...
Anyway, I was pleasantly surprised by your response yesterday, thanks for that!
About your setup, I see why I needed to make adjustments. It seems that after WBTB you stay almost still, so you easily center your head over the ear-buds and your wrist band stays on your palm - does not slip off. Perhaps this has to do with you not getting out of bed...
In my case, I change positions so many times that the only way to cope, was with in-ear buds - almost flat and not disturbing that I tape-on and special wrist and palm bands that stay in place no matters how much I move!
About my results now, to tell you the truth I haven't given it a proper try yet. I only tested it 3 times (the one before the wrist bands and 2 more) with no lucidity.
There are many reasons for this, most importantly I was ill most of this time - 4 days with fever and another 5 with back pain, so I was off-attempts. Apart from that, my WBTB involves going to the bathroom and makes me quite alert. So, first 2 attempts resulted in insomnia and only in the last one I was able to sleep and dream between the vibrations - again without lucidity. I was just awaken very time, played the audio and returned to sleep. I guess I was not sleeping deep enough.
I do plan to use this technique again - as well as other ones - and if I have any good results, I will be sure to report here!

One more trial last night, no results again. :huh2:
I was simply awaken every time, played the audio file and went back to sleep. Seems it's not the method for me. Quite strange though, because the original method - the saltcube timer method - was quite effective and gave me my first lucids, although it was quite annoying and more disturbing that this one - mainly because it used loud beeping sounds instead of vibrations for awakening. Anyway, most likely I won't be using this anymore.
Btw Tlaloc, is it still giving good results for you?

Hiya Searcher! you wanted to know how I'd gone with the tech - well developed the tech in aug and had 12 ld's with it, then in sept I had 13, then in oct I did the tech for 2 weeks and had 6, so over that 10 week period I had a rate of around 3 LD's a week - and I was doing the tech around the same amount (2-3x week, so some nights no LD, some multiple).
In mid oct I stopped doing any active LD'ing tech. Whilst I found getting lucid to be a pretty profound experience I had a lot of other things on my plate and in having read a couple of comments at the time by other LDers I decided just to enjoy my non-LD's more. I had a couple more LD's without doing the tech after that and then faded back to my baseline of zero lucidity. Until I caught your comment, and a night or two later, my daughter woke me up in the night having wet her bed, I did a wbtb and did the tech returning to sleep and got lucid again - so nice to see it still worked.

I'm sorry it hasn't worked for you...and I was thinking about why....and why perhaps other people tech's often don't work well for other people.

Anyway heres my thoughts - a key part of this technique is where I say to myself 'keep looking for the vibe' in the audio loop (I think I described this above, the loop says ' this is a successful electronic reality check, rest and relax, and keep looking for the vibe'). The key bit is the [I]meaning[I] behind the phrase. I spent a week or two with the vibrating device on my ankle with it going off randomly during the day. When it went off I'd do a RC - checking the time on my watch, but I'd also look around and look for any inconsistencies/abnormalities in the environment. Because the vibe was going off relatively regularly during the day (say on a 45min loop) you would often start to get the feeling of when it might start to go off, at those points, before it went off I would start to get more alert, looking around, looking for abnormalities, doing reality checks in advance of it going off. Its important to note, that just doing this during the day never in itself made me lucid, but what it seems to have done is to have created a really strong association (or conditioning) and so when I say 'keep looking for the vibe' I know exactly what this means - it means be on high alert for abnormalities, oddities aka dreamsigns, and the vibe itself. The funny thing is - if I say something different like 'keep looking for the dream' or 'keep looking for the oddity' it feels far less effective. I seem to have made a VERY strong association with this particular phrase and its connotations.

Without having done this practice with the vibe device and the association of the phrase to that activity I would think the phrase itself would be much less effective and perhaps this is why it doesn't work for you. An analogy to this might be Pavlovs dogs. Pavlov got his dogs to salivate to a musical tone - this became a conditioned response. I could tell you to salivate when you hear a musical tone, and you could try but unless you have been conditioned to it I suspect it would have no effect. You would understand the theory, but wouldn't be able to produce the effect.

It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of other successful LDers are essentially trying to transmit how they are succeeding to get lucid but that a lot of their success comes down to some kind of intentional response that has been developed through personal experience and is hard to transmit to others. In particular I'm thinking of MILD, which seems to never have the effect La Berge described for himself for others.

Anyway - the thing I would possibly suggest for my tech, is that you might be able to get the same feeling for the same phrase I use by practicing during daytime with the vibe - this practice like the training of pavlovs dogs, hopefully would condition you so that when you use the phrase it helps switch your brain more into a phase suitable for LD'ing if the underlying conditions are right (eg the increased alertness from a wbtb or miniwbtb).

hope this might be of use :) cheers T

Hi (Hiya) Tlaloc!
Wow! This is indeed working great for you!
Thank you for your ideas and suggestions. Yes, it's true that I didn't really understand the meaning of this phrase (although I used it in my recording...).
Now that you described the whole story, I see why it works great for you - it would be better though if you had included that part in the description ;)
Unfortunately, for now I can't do your training, because my vibrating watch is malfunctioning - it has the possibility to give random vibes throughout the day, but this is the only function that is not working...
On the other hand, the Raduga technique gave excellent results for me, so I will resume my trials with that.
Anyway, thanks for this - and if I get stuck in the future, I might get back to give this another shot, with a new operating vibrating device :cheeky:

Impressive resulsts Tlaloc !
I should receive in a few days the latest version of the Rem-Dreamer pro with an audio recorder option directly integrated to the mask board, that my old RemDreamer doesn't have.

I definitely see a way of adapting your technique to this useful tool.
The "this is a successful reality check, rest and relax" could be a clever base for a recorded vocal message on my RemDreamer!

Hey guys - thanks for the replies! I've taken on board your point Searcher - and if its possible I'll try and update the initial post to do suggest the importance of doing some daytime practice prior to beginning the night time use of the vibe - I guess this is where having feedback from others is a really big asset.

Kaan - I had a question - can you get the REM Dreamer to present the audio cue BEFORE the flashes? I was chatting with another member about ways to improve incorporation of external stimuli (cues) into the dreamstate. If you could elevate your dreaming minds alertness prior to getting the light cue by playing a loudish tone or noise that might increase the likelihood of getting the lights incorporated - just a thought.
Best of luck to you both! - T

^^ Yep, I think that would be useful to someone trying this out - and you might have to contact an admin for this, but it can be done.

Indeed I answered but it's like my message has lost itself on the deepness of the web limbs, so I will write it again.
I received the new RD pro will unboxe it tomorrow, but I don't think it is possible to play the audio recorded message before the beeps or/and flashes.
Non the less I think it is possible manage to do it by using the TWC mode (Two Way Communication).
Contrary to the normal mode, the TWC will send 6 or 7 series of clues, with 30 seconds between each one, and an increasing intensity of the flashes/beeps/recorded audio messages.
So if I record 15 seconds of silence before saying my vocal message, since each set of flashes and message is repeated every 30 seconds, the 15 seconds delay will do what you suggest: a flash or/and beep will be preceded by the vocal message.
I can record a message telling to myself to be aware of the next flash/beep serie.

The second advantage of the TWC mode is that I can stop the mask from the dream world by doing a CODE with my eyes, so if I am lucid during the process, I can stop the clues and prevent the mask from waking me up.

When I am not trying to use my RD to have a WILD/DEILD, I can use it to test your technique.

Hi guys.
How things go for you?

After some good results using my new RemDreamer and LD supplements, I had got some winter holidays, and had another couple of good results, but the way this new RD and his barely comfortable flat speaker gives me LD is a little bit different from the way my old RD was doing it.
I finished by stopping my LD attempts and losing my interest for LD (but I will come back to it)

Basically I have been choosing to go for WILD/DEILD and to give the DILD techniques up for several months.
With supplements + my old RemDreamer + WILD or Raduga's style DEILD I had been having very solid success rate.
The old RD was a technological help for DEILD, but the way I use the new RD makes me feel I am returning to some kind of DILD results, and that is not what I want, cause I want to learn to WILD/DEILD and to reach a skill that gives me LD virtually at will, by trying it, and not by doing invasive stuffs during the day time (really checks, self suggestions, and all the stuffs that doesn't really work for me anymore).

Anyway, the reason why I post here today is that I just ordered a programmable vibrating alarm that I will use for my WILD/DEILD attempts and that you guys could use for the Tlaloc's technique.

The alarm is called Gymboss MiniMAX

*Removed link*

You can wear it near you foot, if you buy the scratch, it can beep or vibrate (or both) during 1 , 2 , 5 or 9 seconds and it stops by itself.
you can program a succession of different delays, until 25 different delays, and until 99 total delays in a row.
the delay between two alarms is from 2 seconds to 99 minutes.

So you can program for example 40min-27min-10min-18min-29min,whatever, and so on, and save this setting in one of the available memories.

I will use it for WILD to replace any mental anchor, the 1 sec vibrating alarm will tell me that 10 min have passed (for example) and will remind me to stay focus, then the following alarm will tell me that 15 more minutes have passed, and so on.

I will also use it for DEILD to wake me up at different times after a WBTB and to try a DEILD.

Since you can customize your delays series, you can simulate a random alarm to prevent the brain from anticipating the alarm as it can do when the same delay is repeated again and again.

I'll tell you my results when I receive it.

I am sure that this cheap tool can help for the technique of this thread as well

Glad to see activity in this thread! I haven't updated here in a while either.

The Gymboss looks like a useful timer, and maybe a bit less clunky than the MotivAider. I've been continuing to use the latter from time to time, and although I really like the functionality, I still don't understand why it needs to be so large! I was able to find a couple "wrist wallets" big enough to hold it, so now I'm using these to strap it to my arm.

I've had occasional successes with it lately (see DJ entries of March 3, February 19 & 13 of this year for detailed descriptions), though mostly these days I've been using it as a back-up method. On the occasions that it has worked, it seems to have served as a trigger from which to DEILD—even from a false awakening, in one case. I'm starting to really like the ease of the DEILD method: it may not always work (does anything?) but it requires much less of a time investment than WILD and you can get multiple shots at it each night. Of course you can DEILD successfully without a device, but the trigger can serve as a great reminder of the intention.

Daywork and conditioning like Tlaloc describes would probably boost this tech as well, though I feel like I'd want something more discreet than the MotivAider if I'm going to wear it in public.........hmmm........ it just occurred to me that I've got a Jawbone UP attached my wrist right now, and it's possible that the "Idle Alert" function could be used for daytime conditioning or even as an actual EILD prompt while I'm in sleeping. Worth a try!

Hi there.

What's up? tlaloc : did you continue to use this technique?

I was doing some research on the forum about the effects of sleep interruptions on the sleep pattern for (for WILD purpose) and this brought me back to this thread.

I have been trying to improve my WILD and DEILD skill for a while now, by using all sort of help : LD supplements (about 90% success rate, but this doesn't help me to lean how to WILD/DEILD naturally), REM-Dreamer pro (with or without recorded audio message), REM-Dreamer + Gymboss (vibrating alarm) and Gymboss only.
I tried to WILD from N-REM sleep WBTB (still working on this following sageous's advices), and from REM sleep WBTB (using the Dream Alarm of my REM-Dreamer).

Up to now, I only have got success with the LD supplements, but still waiting for any positive results on my WILD and DEILD attempts without supplements.
Recently I stopped my experiments on REM interruption based WILD attempts (so I stopped to use the REM-Dreamer) but started to use my Gymboss as a reminder while I try to cross consciously the N-REM sleep.
my attempts with the gymboss are noted in this thread
But sumer holidays will interrupt those experiments as I will have to sleep every days with my Girlfriend.

Anyway, I read this whole thread again and I think I better understood the important points of this technique this time.
I never really tried it the way it was supposed to work but as I now have the vibrating alarm+ a flat speaker (from the REM-Dreamer pro) that I can attach to the RD mask to keep it close to my hear + a skandisk mp3 player , I suppose that I could give it some more serious tries during holidays.

The only stuff that will be different is that I have to attach the mp3 player to the front side of the REM-Dreamer mask (without the RD device inside) because I move very much during the night and the wire that links the MP3 to the flat speaker is about 20cm long (less than 10 inches).
So as the flat speaker AND the MP3 player will be attached to the floppy sleep mask (without the RD device) I will have to move my hand near my face to start the mp3 message.
The vibrating alarm will be attached to my socket.

I well understood that this technique is supposed to bring lucidity through DILD (mainly) , and that the Day training (Associate the RC to the vibrating alarm during the day) is a key point so that the "vibe" must act as a mind conditioning of awareness.

The idea that the audio message will prevent a tolerance issue sounds good.
as this night I sleep alone, I will give it a first try.
Edit: I won't, I let my gymboss at my GF's home..:(

This is the config I will use:
http://i60.tinypic.com/ipbgjr.jpg

you can clearly see the sleep mask (without the RD inside) + the mp3 player + the flat speaker and his wire.
As the flat speaker is pressed against the hair-free skin under/behind my left ear, I can ear it loud even with the earplugs I use to sleep, because of the bone vibrations, without feeling any pain in the case I sleep in my left side, which is not the case if I put it just against my ear.

Each time I will be awoken by the vibrating alarm, I just will have to turn the mp3 player ON by briefly pushing the Power button , wait for about 5 seconds, and press the play button, listen carefully to the message, and that's it (I checked that the mp3 player automatically turns off before the next vibrating alarm goes off 24 min later, so I don't have to turn it off manually which is good cause to do this I should have had to press the power button for several seconds contrary to the power ON process.)

I have realy enjoyed this thread - realy glad I found it. I have got the Gymboss Minimax as you explained in the thread you made Kaan and been using during the day randomly and doing RC and awarenessess when it goes off :alien: havnt done anything at night yet as I had a hunch it was best to get used to it as a cue during the day

I am not very good at setting up tech etc like you have and Tlaloc but will try to get an MP3 player to connect to a wrist band so I can press the voice cue with hardly any movement :)

Thanks everyone:okbyenow:

Hi.
As I said, this night I didn't have my Gymboss but I wanted to give a try, at least to see how I feel with the audio message.
So I fixed the broken bracelet of a former vibrating watch I had got and used it in spite of the Gymboss.

(when I will have back my Gymboss, this vibrating watch will be what firstly wakes me up at about h+6 after bed time, this way, my Gymboss will already be attached to my socket, ready to be triggered and will be dedicated to the short vibrations every 24 min.
So when my vibrating watch wakes me up, I will only have to put my sleeping mask with the mp3 player on it, and to trigger the Gymboss.)
.
Lets return to my vibrating watch:
I programmed a vibrating alarm to firstly wake me up and used a timer that I programmed for a 24 min interval.
the timer automatically starts again his countdown when it reaches 0.
The issue with this vibrating watch is that the vibration associated with each time up lasts for about 10 seconds, which is way too long.

Ideally, I think the vibration should last just enough to have 50% chance to wake you up, and 50% chance to produce a false awakening.
It will be more easy to figure it out with the Gymboss.

Anyway, I had got some false triggers (felt vibrations when the watch wasn't going off), and heard the sound of a photograph device , both were coming from a false awakening.
Unfortunately, because this long vibration woke me up too much each time, I ended the experiment after few occurrences.

Anyway, these few occurrences were enough to give me a first preview of how this technique feels like (and especially how my way of doing it feels like).

The audio listening was very pleasant !
Several times, I felt like triggering it even when the vibrating watch was not going off, which is a good thing.
however I think I now understand why tlaloc attached the player to his hand: sometimes when I had to play the mp3, I would have appreciated to do it without moving at all, cause in this state of mind and numbness, moving the hand to the my face (where the mp3 player was) was not as easy as it sounds like.
I felt that it woke me up too much.

I also noticed when I was changing my sleeping position just after I felt the vibration and just before triggering the mp3.
I guess that if I train myself to notice it and then to progressively prevent me from moving before I'm about to do it, it will improve the technique efficiency.

I noticed a very strong tendency to anticipate (and wait for) the vibration and also to wonder what time is it and how much time it must left before the next vibration.

I think that h+6 may be reduced a bit as I was having a very strong dream before that delay.

My real first tries (with the gymboss) will start when I won't be sleeping alone in my bed. this first preview makes me think that this is not ideal and that it can easily ruin my sleep but I will try to figure out.

I wont be able to post my results before a certain amount of time, but I'll do it as soon as possible.


Edit:
I just remembered that I heard once a message very different from the one I recorded on the mp3 player.
Those FA hallucinations are a pretty good sign.

Hi Kaan,
I had a very heavy schedule recently and no time for LD.
But during the next month I will be back and going again - and with a few new ideas to test (ultrasonic induction of LD).
So, the last 3 days I have started Tlaloc's daytime training with vibes during the day and I will soon start practicing his technique again - with minor deviations - and report the results.
I wish you good luck with your setup and yes, I agree that having to move your hand to your head is too much of a movement during the night...

Hi SearcherTMR.
your new ideas are hitting my curiosity.
Don't hesitate to tell me more about this by PM.

I'm out of context to give good night time tries.
Once my girlfriend saw me in the middle of the night with my sleeping mask, manipulating my mp3 player but I indeed I slept without it and never put this mask, so at least it gave her a false awakening!
I told her to do a RC next time.

On my side I continue to practice RC and alert observations each time my Gymboss triggers its vibrating alarms during the day, but don't give much effort on the night technique because of various reasons : for example this night my vibrating watch fell because the bracelet is still broken and my fixing was weak.
I got few FA last night and this night, even if I didn't trigger the gymboss, I dreamed about a conversation involving 2 Lucid Dreamers and I, discussing about some LD powers.
serious things will probably start when I will sleep alone, in few weeks, but for now the only thing I am sure to work on is the daytime conditioning with my Gymboss vibrating every 24 min during the day.
my girlfriend told me that sometimes, during the night, my Gymboss was vibrating (during 2 seconds) but I was still sleeping.
So my new setting is a 2 sets of 2 seconds of vibrations separated by 1 second of nothing.
this every 24 min.

Hi Kaan,
Well, this week I am still very busy - I have just started the daytime training (plus dream journaling) in order to properly test Tlaloc's techinque after one-two weeks when I will be on vacation.
I will PM you next week about UILD :cheeky: when I will have time for writing, as it is a big story...
Good luck with your tests - to both of you! ;-)

@ searcherTMR : take you time bro ;)


The daytime conditioning (Yesterday I did a RC every 24 min during the whole day) is starting to kick in.
This night, after 3 or 4 hours of sleep I did a WBTB, took melatonine, read a book and went back to bed when I was about to fall asleep.
My last thought was something like "next time I dream I want to realize I am dreaming", mentally pronounced only once.
For once this simple auto suggestion worked.
I had a LD but I only remember the very beginning as I didn't note it.
I was mainly observing how my hands were realistic and very detailed.
I noticed that the "4" I can usually read in my own right hand wasn't there.
Then I decided to count my fingers and their number was different each time I counted them, until some fingers were even not finished.
I don't remember the following and the dream, I think I flew for a while and really enjoyed it but I lost this memories.

Anyway, this happened before I start the gymboss and before I put the sleeping mask with the mp3 player.
when I did start the gymboss + mp3 technique, I felt very well that moving the arm to play the audio message was sometimes ruining the possibility to return directly to the dream.
A way of triggering the audio without moving at all (I mean really not moving) would be perfect.

In the other hand, as I have to move my hand to the front of my face (where the mp3 player is) each time I feel the Vibe, I can notice when it is easy to do it, and when it involves a strong effort.
This could be a way to detect some WILD/DEILD opportunities... I don't know.
I mean... when I really feel like not moving at all, maybe I could try a WILD instead of playing the audio because it means my body is very relaxed and about to fall back to sleep very fast.
In the worst case, I miss an attempt and will be awoken 24 min later.

By the way, the vibration mode : 2 sec ON, 1 sec OFF, 2 sec ON feels very good.

Hey Kaan congrats on the' last thought ' LD ;)
Hi SearcherTMR - I am also interested in your methods - will you let us know what ur up to ( UILD ):alien:

Kaan - My boy friend is getting me an mp3 /iPod for me to engage more in this method - but asks me to ask you which one would you recommend - thanks

I haven't worked out what you mean with the Gymboss buzz timings when you say - the vibration mode : 2 sec ON, 1 sec OFF, 2 sec ON feels very good ;

Do you mean there is a way to make it vibrate twice at the specifically timed intervals? So far I am having it buzz at random times during the day for 1 sec - Do you mean you have it buzz for a 2 sec then 1 sec off then 2 sec on at intervals during the day? Can you explain exactly what you are doing here and why - cheers

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patience108

Hey Kaan congrats on the' last thought ' LD ;)
Hi SearcherTMR - I am also interested in your methods - will you let us know what ur up to ( UILD ):alien:

Kaan - My boy friend is getting me an mp3 /iPod for me to engage more in this method - but asks me to ask you which one would you recommend - thanks

I haven't worked out what you mean with the Gymboss buzz timings when you say - the vibration mode : 2 sec ON, 1 sec OFF, 2 sec ON feels very good ;

Do you mean there is a way to make it vibrate twice at the specifically timed intervals? So far I am having it buzz at random times during the day for 1 sec - Do you mean you have it buzz for a 2 sec then 1 sec off then 2 sec on at intervals during the day? Can you explain exactly what you are doing here and why - cheers

---

About the mp3 player, I don't know what to suggest, you want to use something that can trigger the recorded message in the simplest way.
I use a scandisk, I dunno which modele, I have to press the Power button, then count from 1 to 5 in my head and press the play button.
you don't want to have something that will be too complicated to manipulate.

"Do you mean you have it buzz for a 2 sec then 1 sec off then 2 sec on at intervals during the day?"

yes, every 24 min, during the day, and during the night after about 6 hrs of sleep.

" Can you explain exactly what you are doing here and why "

why? :
because one only vibration of 2 seconds is too much ignored when I sleep/dream.
a 5 seconds vibration is too unpleasant.
But 2 vibrations of 2 seconds separated by 1 second "off" seams OK.

How?
The gymboss has 4 different modes:
1 int
2 int
3+int
multi

for the 2 on 1 off 2 on every 24 minutes, I use the "2 int" mode

the first interval is 24 min
the second interval is 3 seconds
the whole thing is repeated about 10 times
the vibe mode is chosen and it is set to 2 seconds

this way you'll have "2 seconds ON, 1 second Off, 2 seconds ON" every 24 min for 10 sets.

I saved this setting in one of the 5 memories of the "2 int" mode.

I use the same sating during the day for my RC.

Hi Patience,
No problem, I will - but as I said, sometime next week.
Perhaps I will start a thread about it.
Kaan, I still think that having to move your hand so much is not very helpful .
You should simply get an extensor cable and stick it in your hand - with some tape or a wristband like mine.
It can act as an indicator even there - and even more so, because if you find it difficult to move just your finger, it's even more possible that you are in for a WILD...

Another try this morning.
This time I did use the sleeping mask+mp3+gymboss from 6AM to 9 AM.
No WBTB.
The 2 alarms in a row (2s ON; 1s OFF, 2s ON) was a bit too much.
It made me think I was awoken too often.

I am thinking about another strategy.
I will try 1 vibration of 2 seconds followed by the same one but 2 minutes later. This every 24 min.
If the first one wakes me up, I'll play the audio which says "this is a successful reality check, relax and pay attention to the next vibration"
the next vibration will be coming 2 min later.
If I am aware of this 2nd vibration I wont play the audio, instead I will try a WILD/DEILD.
I could be in FA as well.
With some luck, I will fall back to sleep after the 1st vibe.

So my setting for the gymboss will be:
Mode : 2 int
1st interval: 22 min
2nd interval:2 min
vibration : 2 sec.
rounds: 10

Anyway, I had got some funny FA, one where I was dreaming of takin melatonine pills and one where I was changing the settings of my Gymboss.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SearcherTMR

Hi Patience,
No problem, I will - but as I said, sometime next week.
Perhaps I will start a thread about it.
Kaan, I still think that having to move your hand so much is not very helpful .
You should simply get an extensor cable and stick it in your hand - with some tape or a wristband like mine.
It can act as an indicator even there - and even more so, because if you find it difficult to move just your finger, it's even more possible that you are in for a WILD...

---

Sorry I didn't see your post.
I already had this idea but I can't do it for now. I'll give it a try as soon as I sleep alone.
It won't be very easy although, cause I move pretty much in the bed.

Non the less, if you take a look to the setting I'm about to test, described on in my previous post, If I still have to move to play the audio, when the second vibe goes off, I don't have to move at all, and this could be a good opportunity to WILD.

No problem Kann, it was just a thought.
Actually your new settings are very interesting and I think you will have some nice experiences - and hopefully lucids with it!
Let us know!:)

Thanks SearcherTMR.
I can't wait for trying this; unfortunately, I wasn't able to attempt anything this night because I suffered from sever sunburns I got from my kayaking journey yesterday.
during the night each time I woke up from pain I took melatonin to fall back to sleep.
It gave me tons of vivid and epic dreams in the morning. too bad I wasn't wearing my gymboss in the late morning.

Repeated intake of melatonin pills during the first half of the night may be a good tip to have a strong REM rebound when attempting the technique (but I don't plan to use this supplements in a daily base)

I gave another try this morning from 6 AM to 10 AM.
I tested what I planed to: a first set of 2 vibrations of 2 second separated by 1 sec of silence, then I play the audio, 2 min later, a single vibration of 2 sec where I am supposed not to move and try a WILD.
when I move to play the audio, it is nearly impossible for me to keep me from changing my body position in the bed.
It results in a delayed sleep onset, so the vibration occurring 2 min later arrives too soon.
Next time I'll try with 1 sec vibes, and 3 min of delay for the second vibe.

I have another Idea to prevent me from doing ANY movement to play the audio when the vibration goes off , but I can not test it before I'm back to home.
The idea is simple, I need to make an audio file which will last 2 or 3 hours, where the audio message will be played every 24 min, just after the vibration is supposed to wake me up.
when I'll put the mask, after 6h of sleep, I'll trigger the Gymboss, wait few seconds, and then trigger the audio file.
This way, the gymboss will go off every 24 min, and each time it stops the vibe, the audio file automatically plays the message without any movement needed.

^^ I don't think this is going to work. The whole idea of activating the audio was for prevention of getting used to it. If it plays automatically, I think that fter a few nights you will just sleep through.
So, you have to press the play button...

Just came back to this technique.
This time, I do it like the original technique.
I am awoken after about 6 hrs of sleep by a vibrating watch.
Then I attach the mp3 player on one finger of my right hand.
The mp3 player is linked by a (too)long wire to the flat speaker that is scratched to the elastic head band of my RemDreamer Sleep mask (without the RD inside).
I have my Gymboss minimax vibrating alarm clipsed to my pant, it is programmed to vibrate every 24 min.
I turn it on when I have installed all the stuff during my WBTB.

This night I had got a LD but I forgot 100% of it.
I noticed that some vibrations have been ignored.
The reason I know it is that I set my sandisk to automatically turn of after 25min if I don't use it.
As long as I play the audio each time I notice de vibration,which comes every 24 min, the player stays "on", and I just have to press the play button.

But if I miss a vibration, the 25 min delay is over so it turns off, and the next time I notice the vibration, it wont play the message unless I press the power button and wait about 5 seconds before pressing the play button.
This night, I have noticed in some occasions that I had to press the power on button cause the play button didn't work, which means that I have missed few vibrations.
It could have been a FA but it worked after I turned the player on.

The Gymboss was programmed to vibrate during 2 seconds every 24 min.
Next time I will program it to vibrate 2 seconds, then 1 second silence, then 2 seconds of vibe, this every 24 min to see if I can notice it better during my dreams or if it actually wakes me up from a dream.

I've found that using technology as a crutch for lucid dreaming is far less effective and beneficial than developing the skills needed to do so naturally. The methods highlighted in this thread are effective if one's intentions and motivation are strong, although without the proper motivation, these bells and whistles will likely be ignored and the attempt will probably fail. In my experience, motivation and intention play a much more important role than alarms and buzzers. My point is that perhaps the focus of this thread is a bit misguided.

Have to make it more simple :mp3 -> ear plug and that's all (with the vibe alarm system obviously)

This night, my vibrating watch woke me up after 6hs of sleep, I could have fell asleep very fast since I was very groggy, but the mask+long wire+mp3 took me too much time to install on me (and the fact of turning the light on), so it woke me up to much and then I was unable to fall back to sleep.
I also messed up the mp3 player setting, so it was automatically turning off every 20 min instead of 25 min, I had to check this out several time, and this participated to ruin the last part of my sleep schedule.

This thread may be of interest to you :)

http://www.dreamviews.com/general-lu...dream-app.html

These last nights I'm experimenting with my RemDreamer Pro alone, trying different kinds of vocal messages.
Sometimes it wakes me up, sometimes it doesn't but what is sure is that I remember much more dream scenes!
That's basically what the app allow you to do, but with the REM detection in bonus.

Each time I alm awoken from a Dream by my mask, it's an occasion to try some WILD/DEILD techniques.

The length and the volume of the vocal message are likely to be what I have to work on, but this is getting a little bit far away from the technique we are supposed to talk about in this thread..
If I finish by having consistent results, I'll open my own thread.

I'm keeping an eye on the vibrating "Alarm+mp3 player" technique as it gave me some interesting results, mostly false awakenings and dreams about lucidity.
The use of a RemDreamer Pro still has a link with this thread anyway, as I sometime have to press the RC button when I think I have been awoken by the device, and this is still a interrupted sleep audio methode.
I just want to find the perfect setting so that it gives me 50% chances to be awoken just enough to DEILD, and 50%chances to ear the message in my dream (DILD).