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    Thread: Published in Nature Neuroscience: 77% induction rate with electrodes on the scalp at 40 Hertz

    1. #76
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ctharlhie View Post
      How long until we see a LDing tACS kickstarter, I wonder?
      I don't think the FDA will easily approve the use of tACs for widespread public use, but there is hope
      Attached a clearer image
      imgur: the simple image sharer

      I am guessing some muse with cefaly type combo will be the future of LDing for the masses
      *Links removed*Muse: the brain sensing headband
      *Links removed* Cefaly
      Last edited by NyxCC; 09-27-2014 at 11:31 PM. Reason: merged posts, links to products for sale removed
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      Quote Originally Posted by jeffg View Post
      I am guessing some muse with cefaly type combo will be the future of LDing for the masses *links removed*
      It does not needs to be tACS right?
      People would just need to create machine that could apply 2mA of 40 Hz on our brain, make it comfortable and sell it. Right?
      Last edited by NyxCC; 09-27-2014 at 11:34 PM. Reason: removed product sale links, same as above
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      ^^ I didn't read the whole thread in detail yet, but I think it must also detect when the REM stage has started and when it ends to turn it on and off.

      I was wondering if was not just "the itchy on the head" what was actually causing people to slightly wake up inside their dreams enough to realize it's a dream? How does it feel those signals through the electrodes while awake? What about if trying other ways to "stimulate" brain activity after entering the REM stage, say by placing the electrodes in the fingers and inducing different values of current flow?
      Last edited by Box77; 06-26-2014 at 08:20 AM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by MisakaMikoto View Post
      It does not needs to be tACS right?
      People would just need to create machine that could apply 2mA of 40 Hz on our brain, make it comfortable and sell it. Right?
      And safe.
      My Lucid Dreaming Articles/Tutorials:
      Mindfulness - An Alternative Approach to ADA
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      Always, no sometimes think it's me,
      But you know I know when it's a dream
      I think I know I mean a yes
      But it's all wrong
      That is I think I disagree

      -John Lennon


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      Quote Originally Posted by Box77 View Post
      ^^ I didn't read the whole thread in detail yet, but I think it must also detect when the REM stage has started and when it ends to turn it on and off.

      I was wondering if was not just "the itchy on the head" what was actually causing people to slightly wake up inside their dreams enough to realize it's a dream? How does it feel those signals through the electrodes while awake? What about if trying other ways to "stimulate" brain activity after entering the REM stage, say by placing the electrodes in the fingers and inducing different values of current flow?
      Dear Box77m,

      You've raised a valid point: does a mere interruption of REM sleep simply trigger lucid dream awareness?

      Unfortunately not,according to scientific scrutiny, that is deserving of a publication in Nature, it would seem....

      http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/...l/nn.3719.html

      Lucid Dreaming: A State of Consciousness with Features of Both Waking and Non-Lucid Dreaming
      Box77, Zoth, SearcherTMR and 1 others like this.

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      Quote Originally Posted by jeffg View Post
      This setup seems to work only in the early morning between 4-5am by entrainiment of 40 Hz gamma waves. This makes the frontal and occipital regions artificially active during the REM sleep stage and viola. Part of the brain is asleep and part is wide awake

      I just like making pictures a bit bigger!


      Quote Originally Posted by gururise View Post
      Was thinking about using my Zeo Bedside +Serial cable to detect REM and then have my computer trigger flashing LED's + 40Hz tACs for 30-45 seconds during the beginning of REM stage. Still waiting on some of the parts to arrive and I'm looking for a cheap 3.3v Arduino + BLE. According to the data in the paper, it seems tACs stimulation (as applied in the experiment) would not be enough to achieve what would be considered a lucid dream state by many members of this site. I believe they only applied tACs for 30 seconds or something like that. Perhaps adjusting duration or other parameters would be enough to achieve better lucidity.
      I googled Zeo and came across this:

      Exclusive: Sleep coach company Zeo is shutting down | mobihealthnews

      While on first glance this might remind some of us of LUCI and the kickstarter scam, people, incl. forum-members, have found out about and cleared up -
      but not so!
      This article is actually full of praise - and it looks from their view as if they just hadn't been able to financially make it and arrange themselves with the FDA fast enough. By my impression from that article - this device should be able to detect and record your brain-states - incl. of course REM - properly and accurately.
      A project conceived by a group of Brown University students initially.
      Am I mistaken?


      Quote Originally Posted by jeffg View Post
      I don't think the FDA will easily approve the use of tACs for widespread public use, but there is hope
      Attached a clearer image
      imgur: the simple image sharer

      I am guessing some muse with cefaly type combo will be the future of LDing for the masses
      Muse: the brain sensing headband
      Cefaly Shop | Cefaly
      I guess you are right with the FDA - but there are some fascinating articles about the "self-zapping scene" - not sure now if I have already linked up in here.
      Two of them were from Wired Magazine.
      Looking Cefaly up I found that even this appliance is only available with a medical prescription for migraine.


      Quote Originally Posted by MisakaMikoto View Post
      It does not needs to be tACS right?
      People would just need to create machine that could apply 2mA of 40 Hz on our brain, make it comfortable and sell it. Right?
      Do you mean, that it doesn't necessarily need to be alternating currents?


      Quote Originally Posted by Box77 View Post
      How does it feel those signals through the electrodes while awake?
      Very good question!
      Does one get a sensation? Would it be possible to blind a study with awake people not against another stimulation, but against no stimulation at all?
      I guess not. And would people notice other than surface phenomena in a statistically relevant manner, double-blindly studied, if possible?
      Upgrade to Persinger's failed god-helmet one might even wonder...?


      Quote Originally Posted by jeffg View Post
      Dear Box77m,

      You've raised a valid point: does a mere interruption of REM sleep simply trigger lucid dream awareness?

      Unfortunately not,according to scientific scrutiny, that is deserving of a publication in Nature, it would seem....

      http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/...l/nn.3719.html

      Lucid Dreaming: A State of Consciousness with Features of Both Waking and Non-Lucid Dreaming
      Thank you for your links - I will have to read up on those yet - but this here is very enjoyable I have to say!

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      The TACS setup (thanks for the big help from Michael/Lucidscribe)works well for me now and have a success rate of almost 70%,and it triggers very vivid dreams and an almost 100% dream recall.Modified the setup completely, since the headbands were getting in the way and now use the stick-on EEG electrodes that are non intrusive and give a goodnite's sleep. The same electrodes monitor for REM and deliver the current as well.
      Attached is a clearer picture.
      http://i.imgur.com/BF4R9Zc.jpg

      and the waveform...

      http://i.imgur.com/fIlcPIw.jpg
      Last edited by jeffg; 07-04-2014 at 10:53 AM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Highlander View Post
      Re: Binaural beats.

      Binaural beats - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
      Wikipedia refers to the 'cocktail effect' in beat frequencies generally anything over 30 Hz. However in the same article there is reference to a 40 Hz binaural beat frequency.



      Schwarz DW, Taylor P (2005). "Human auditory steady state responses to binaural and monaural beats". Clinical Neurophysiology 116 (3): 658–68.

      Elsevier

      Ryan Hurd also refers to this in his dreamstudies portal back in early 2011.
      Lucid dreaming Brain Entrainment with Binaural Beats | dream studies portal
      i came across this article some days ago:
      Gamma-Frequenzen lassen jetzt luzide träumen!

      In this blog, Jonathan Dilas (the author) claims he made a MP3 causing gamma waves (based on the above research of course) in the brain leading to lucid dreams. some of his customers says, that they had indeed lucid and vivid dreams.
      what to think of this?

      some one else who had/have success with gamma sounds?

    9. #84
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      Quote Originally Posted by SonatArctica View Post
      i came across this article some days ago:
      Gamma-Frequenzen lassen jetzt luzide träumen!

      In this blog, Jonathan Dilas (the author) claims he made a MP3 causing gamma waves (based on the above research of course) in the brain leading to lucid dreams. some of his customers says, that they had indeed lucid and vivid dreams.
      what to think of this?

      some one else who had/have success with gamma sounds?
      I'm not an expert yet i belive even if sound was 40 Hz frequency then during travel through earlobe it will become more and more distorted.
      Every single person has small yet still differences inside earlobe
      So the sound for one person might de-stabilzie and result in 71 Hz from 40 Hz, while for other person it might result in 50 Hz
      That's my tiny theory
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      Quote Originally Posted by SonatArctica View Post
      i came across this article some days ago:
      Gamma-Frequenzen lassen jetzt luzide träumen!

      In this blog, Jonathan Dilas (the author) claims he made a MP3 causing gamma waves (based on the above research of course) in the brain leading to lucid dreams. some of his customers says, that they had indeed lucid and vivid dreams.
      what to think of this?

      some one else who had/have success with gamma sounds?
      Hi,
      I have tried gamma recordings with no success so far. What I did was this: I made an 8 min, 40 hz simple sine recording using acoustica and and used the iphone app DreamZ that detects REM sleep to deliver the recording. I also tried looping the recording along with 40 min silence for the whole night. Neither method (for several nights) led to any results for me. To make the picture clear, I used to lucid dream a lot but I have many months to try. Hoped for quick results but unfortunately... No success....

    11. #86
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      Quote Originally Posted by SearcherTMR View Post
      Hi,
      I have tried gamma recordings with no success so far. What I did was this: I made an 8 min, 40 hz simple sine recording using acoustica and and used the iphone app DreamZ that detects REM sleep to deliver the recording. I also tried looping the recording along with 40 min silence for the whole night. Neither method (for several nights) led to any results for me. To make the picture clear, I used to lucid dream a lot but I have many months to try. Hoped for quick results but unfortunately... No success....
      I guess there's a slight difference between directly applied 40 hz electricity dose compared to soundwave at frequency of 40 hz
      Since the soundwave will more than likely distort itself on the way through your ear canal?
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      Quote Originally Posted by MisakaMikoto View Post
      I guess there's a slight difference between directly applied 40 hz electricity dose compared to soundwave at frequency of 40 hz
      Since the soundwave will more than likely distort itself on the way through your ear canal?
      I don't think there is a difference in the perceived frequency. The problem may have to do with brain entrainment. It might be easier to sync the brain waves to a particular frequency using tACS than audio. But again, the original report in Nature Neuroscience that started it all, proved to be -under close investigation- a semi fraud. It did result in statisticaly significant differences in scores but NOT in significant increases in Lucid Dreaming frequency (the 77% was calculated using the completely misleading assumption that anything above mean scores equals a lucid dream...).
      So, if the original study did not achieve a significant increase in lucid dream frequency, why should a 40hz audio do that?
      So why did I try? Just in case....

      Quote Originally Posted by jeffg View Post
      The TACS setup (thanks for the big help from Michael/Lucidscribe)works well for me now and have a success rate of almost 70%,and it triggers very vivid dreams and an almost 100% dream recall.Modified the setup completely, since the headbands were getting in the way and now use the stick-on EEG electrodes that are non intrusive and give a goodnite's sleep. The same electrodes monitor for REM and deliver the current as well.
      Attached is a clearer picture.
      http://i.imgur.com/BF4R9Zc.jpg

      and the waveform...

      http://i.imgur.com/fIlcPIw.jpg
      Hi Jeffg.
      Can I ask you what exactly do you mean with 70% success rate?
      A lucid dream every 7 out of 10 nights/trials?
      I mean a real lucid dream at almost every trial - or a "statistically significant change in dream content"....or something...
      What was your success rate prior to this setup? Is 70% attributed to the setup or part of it would be your normal accomplishment?
      I am just trying to figure out if the cost and the time in developing such a system is justifiable.
      If it proves to be, I will most likely build one like yours!
      Thanks!
      Last edited by NyxCC; 09-16-2014 at 09:05 PM. Reason: Merged posts

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      Quote Originally Posted by SearcherTMR View Post
      Hi Jeffg.
      Can I ask you what exactly do you mean with 70% success rate?
      A lucid dream every 7 out of 10 nights/trials?
      I mean a real lucid dream at almost every trial - or a "statistically significant change in dream content"....or something...
      What was your success rate prior to this setup? Is 70% attributed to the setup or part of it would be your normal accomplishment?
      I am just trying to figure out if the cost and the time in developing such a system is justifiable.
      If it proves to be, I will most likely build one like yours!
      Thanks!
      I'm not him but i think i know what he means
      Sometimes in my failed wild attempts i fell asleep and if i were close enough to dream entrance then i didn't know that i'm dreaming yet i had increased slightly awareness and dreams were slight quality. It was easy as heck always to figure out it's a dream during such lucky fails.
      Something like that i guess
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      Quote Originally Posted by MisakaMikoto View Post
      I'm not him
      Hi Misaka,
      Thanks for the reply, I know what you mean, I have had this kind of pre-lucid awareness after failed WILD attempts but if I did not become actually Lucid, I classify the dream as semi-lucid (definitely not the same as a real Lucid...)
      Anyway, I still would like to hear from Jeffg, as I want a more quantitative presentation of his results if I am to build his setup...

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      Hi SearcherTMR
      The setup works great now and I have been fine tuning the lucid dream triggering down to almost 100% strike rate using the WBTB method ( by 70% I meant 7 out of 10 times). Just set the alarm to 4:00 am stick on the electrodes, turn on the stim and go back to sleep and the Lucidscribe triggers during REM and viola! you can do anything you like.... . In fact I am confident that as time goes by, the mind gets better and better trained and you do not need an external stimulus anymore. The 40Hz electric stimulation is just like a scaffold, a temporary building block to help you get started and once you get the hang of it, I am certain that Lucid dreams can eventually be triggered at will.



      Quote Originally Posted by SearcherTMR View Post
      Hi Misaka,
      Thanks for the reply, I know what you mean, I have had this kind of pre-lucid awareness after failed WILD attempts but if I did not become actually Lucid, I classify the dream as semi-lucid (definitely not the same as a real Lucid...)
      Anyway, I still would like to hear from Jeffg, as I want a more quantitative presentation of his results if I am to build his setup...
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      Hi jeffg,

      Congrats on your research successes
      I'm wondering about one thingy
      Are you maybe planning in future releasing something like kickstarter or just a possiblity to purchase such device
      If no then maybe you might in future plan to create a guide how to make one like that

      - Cheers
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      Hi Misaka,

      Michael is trying to replicate the same experiment
      Equipment Donation | lucidcode
      Attached is a simple wiring diagram of his setup
      http://i.imgur.com/UDbjiI7.jpg

      I am now using the upixie instead of the Jace and it outputs the sound waveform of 40HZ as an electric current and far easier to use with Lucidscribe

      *Link removed* uPixie
      Last edited by NyxCC; 09-25-2014 at 12:45 AM. Reason: no links to products being sold please

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      Quote Originally Posted by jeffg View Post
      Hi SearcherTMR
      The setup works great now and I have been fine tuning the lucid dream triggering down to almost 100% strike rate using the WBTB method ( by 70% I meant 7 out of 10 times). Just set the alarm to 4:00 am stick on the electrodes, turn on the stim and go back to sleep and the Lucidscribe triggers during REM and viola! you can do anything you like.... . In fact I am confident that as time goes by, the mind gets better and better trained and you do not need an external stimulus anymore. The 40Hz electric stimulation is just like a scaffold, a temporary building block to help you get started and once you get the hang of it, I am certain that Lucid dreams can eventually be triggered at will.
      Hi Jeffg
      Thanks a lot for your answer!
      WOW! Seems that the article that started it all was not made-up after all...
      With some modification you can really have on-demand lucid dreams!
      I'm sure a Kickstarter product will soon be on the way for those who cannot build one.
      As for me, if you had replied 6 days ago, I would have resumed my efforts on building a similar device. But since then, I have tried a method that -for me - proved magical with unparalleled results- and it is easy and costs nothing. It is the SSILD method and gave me 2 lucids (1st, 2nd) in three trials, so I will keep up with that for now.
      Nevertheless, If on the long run it proves to be less effective, I will resume building a gamma device! Thanks again!

      Btw Jeffg, you have posted links to great products - ideas for those that want to experiment!
      Last edited by NyxCC; 09-25-2014 at 12:41 AM. Reason: Merged posts

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      Hi everyone!
      I had hoped that this thread would gain popularity again after jeff's succesfull attempts on replicating the results of the study, or that another similar thread would carry on the discussion about the most promissing induction method ever....
      This is obviusly not happening
      Nevertheless I want to post some relative news to keep the thread active...
      Dr. Ursula Voss had not replied to zthread's mail - nor to the similar one that I sent her some days later - but she did reply to lucidSages mails, finally answering (although not very clearly) our questions...
      Interview with Dr. Ursula Voss, PhD - Lucid Dreaming
      Also, the kickstarter campain "Oneirics" has as a stretch goal the development of a comercial product based on Dr. Ursula Voss research.
      If anyone else has any updates on the subject, please, post here!
      Last edited by SearcherTMR; 10-18-2014 at 10:15 PM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by jeffg View Post
      I don't think the FDA will easily approve the use of tACs for widespread public use, but there is hope
      Attached a clearer image
      imgur: the simple image sharer

      I am guessing some muse with cefaly type combo will be the future of LDing for the masses
      *Links removed*Muse: the brain sensing headband
      *Links removed* Cefaly
      It seems to be becoming commercial tbh:
      FOC.US - transcranial direct current stimulation for gamers - take charge
      Using tDCS for playing games is serously big joke
      So why not use this for something more amazing like lucid dreaming

      Edit:

      OHHHHH MANNN WAIT WAIT WAIT
      It allows currency from 0.8 to 2.0mA
      And time from 5min to 40 mins with app
      All that it needs now is 40 Hz
      I guess somebody as smart as Jeffg should email them about lucid dreaming. I belive their mail is ([email protected])
      If we will give them enough information and enough prove that it will be userful and consumers will buy it then we might be able to convince them to add option for modfiying hz or for switching from x hz to 40 hz for lucid dreaming

      SOMEBODY SHOULD ALERT JEFF OR MICHEAL FROM LUCIDCODE
      IF FOC.US GUYS GET CONVINCED FOR SWITCH FOR 40 HZ WE GET 179€ WORTH tDCS LDS
      OH MAN IM TOO HYPED LOOOO
      Last edited by MisakaMikoto; 10-18-2014 at 10:56 PM.
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      From her responses to me it seemed that she is not only very busy with research but had to attend to other matters and was unable to reply often, let alone quickly.

      I will talk about it more in one of the next podcast episodes but in general, despite her (and her research team) looking at it from a different point of view than we do, I felt that my concerns were mostly put to rest.

      There are many people working on devices in the same vain (myself included) and a consumer version is not far one way or another.
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      Hey,

      thats very awesome what jeffg archieved. Did "michael" already tried it out and has an experience report? A consumer version will come in some days:

      *As per DV rules, commercial link to product discussed removed*

      Ive ordered one and im very excited after jeffs report. One thing i dont really like is the subsription model. But if it really works then its the best thing since sliced bread. You can read on the website that you just could order the beta-prototype till the 15th october. But because some Paypal-problem they´ve prolonged the pre-order period.

      This is how i understand dr. voss´s statement: The low LuCiD scale just has something to do with the technique. It seems that you aren´t so lucid with the DILD technique at the beginning as with the techniques WILD and MILD. The 40hz-stimulated LD´s are simular with the DILD lucid dreams, so you can compare in this case DILD with WILD or MILD. While youre fully lucid at the beginning of a WILD or MILD LD, on a DILD LD you have to get a awareness with dreamsigns and have to intensify it with some techniques like reality checks and whatnot. But in this study they´ve used subjects who didnt had any clue about lucid dreaming. They´ve didn´t known the techniques and so didn´t got very lucid although they´ve got a idea for a very short time that they could be dreaming. Would they had known these techniques like RC´s then they´ve had used it and made it a real lucid dream. So the LuCiD scale would be much higher (on the amount of a normal lucid dream). This is how ive understand dr. voss´s statement. I hope i was able to explain it properly. Sorry for my poor english, i´m from germany.
      Last edited by NyxCC; 10-19-2014 at 02:55 PM. Reason: removed link
      Bobblehat likes this.

    23. #98
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      Read this:
      https://luciddreamart.wordpress.com/...-p-n-junction/

      Quote Originally Posted by thewolf16 View Post
      A consumer version will come in some days:
      Seriously... ?

      Quote Originally Posted by thewolf16 View Post
      Ive ordered one and im very excited after jeffs report. One thing i dont really like is the subsription model. But if it really works then its the best thing since sliced bread. You can read on the website that you just could order the beta-prototype till the 15th october. But because some Paypal-problem they´ve prolonged the pre-order period.
      Q: Can any product achieve 99% lucidity?
      A: No.

      Seems like a pipe dream to me. A total sham.

      Quote Originally Posted by thewolf16 View Post
      This is how i understand dr. voss´s statement: The low LuCiD scale just has something to do with the technique. It seems that you aren´t so lucid with the DILD technique at the beginning as with the techniques WILD and MILD. The 40hz-stimulated LD´s are simular with the DILD lucid dreams, so you can compare in this case DILD with WILD or MILD. While youre fully lucid at the beginning of a WILD or MILD LD, on a DILD LD you have to get a awareness with dreamsigns and have to intensify it with some techniques like reality checks and whatnot. But in this study they´ve used subjects who didnt had any clue about lucid dreaming. They´ve didn´t known the techniques and so didn´t got very lucid although they´ve got a idea for a very short time that they could be dreaming. Would they had known these techniques like RC´s then they´ve had used it and made it a real lucid dream. So the LuCiD scale would be much higher (on the amount of a normal lucid dream). This is how ive understand dr. voss´s statement. I hope i was able to explain it properly. Sorry for my poor english, i´m from germany.
      Lucid scale or not, Voss got data under laboratory conditions which is more than I can say for luciding.
      Last edited by Highlander; 10-19-2014 at 10:54 AM.

    24. #99
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      Quote Originally Posted by thewolf16 View Post
      Hey,

      thats very awesome what jeffg archieved. Did "michael" already tried it out and has an experience report? A consumer version will come in some days:

      *As per DV rules, commercial link to product discussed removed*

      Ive ordered one and im very excited after jeffs report. One thing i dont really like is the subsription model. But if it really works then its the best thing since sliced bread. You can read on the website that you just could order the beta-prototype till the 15th october. But because some Paypal-problem they´ve prolonged the pre-order period.

      This is how i understand dr. voss´s statement: The low LuCiD scale just has something to do with the technique. It seems that you aren´t so lucid with the DILD technique at the beginning as with the techniques WILD and MILD. The 40hz-stimulated LD´s are simular with the DILD lucid dreams, so you can compare in this case DILD with WILD or MILD. While youre fully lucid at the beginning of a WILD or MILD LD, on a DILD LD you have to get a awareness with dreamsigns and have to intensify it with some techniques like reality checks and whatnot. But in this study they´ve used subjects who didnt had any clue about lucid dreaming. They´ve didn´t known the techniques and so didn´t got very lucid although they´ve got a idea for a very short time that they could be dreaming. Would they had known these techniques like RC´s then they´ve had used it and made it a real lucid dream. So the LuCiD scale would be much higher (on the amount of a normal lucid dream). This is how ive understand dr. voss´s statement. I hope i was able to explain it properly. Sorry for my poor english, i´m from germany.
      I don't like their subscription system...
      Hopefully somebody else is going to do tDCS Machine yet without subscriptions
      (Knowing the world there will be some software modifications downloadable like they did with iphone jailbreak?)
      Last edited by NyxCC; 10-19-2014 at 02:56 PM. Reason: removed commercial link in quote
      I'm back! Again? Uhhh..

    25. #100
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      It has to be tacs. Tdcs uses direct current and tacs alternating current. Direct current doesn´t have a frequency (so it has 0Hz) so it cant apply a frequency to the brain.
      MisakaMikoto likes this.

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