REM before sleep paralysis?

Hey, I’ve had many Lucid dreams throughout my life starting from when I was about 8, I was able to recognize that I was in a dream and fly (learn to fly) by treading water in the air and then later I was able to fly like superman. I have also teleported and walked though walls/ doors, created people and many other things too numerous to mention. I had a few years of not LDing and then in my mid teens read a Carlos Castaneda book (I think the Art of dreaming) that refueled my interest. The book mentioned seeing my hands in my dream and this lead to a whole new set of experiences. And again I had another break and a number of other experiences in my 20’s. I have now after seeing the film Inception become interested in LDing again and have decided to learn the whole process from scratch. Although I have had many experiences I never could really bring on the LDs at will, it was more a case of it just happening here and there.

So the last 3 nights I have been attempting LDs waking during the night and attempting to consciously drift back into sleep, with little success, until last night. I decided to try and LD from the moment I went to bed, rather than waiting 5-6 hours.
I was listening to a LD mp3 that has an LD induction on it and I didn’t move my body for ages. I could feel a warm sensation slowly engulf me and I became less and less aware of my body. Then my eyes started to flicker insanely, It took me aback at first, I could see bright flashes in corners of each eye. And my eyes were so jumpy that they kept flickering open which kind of freaked me out. I have not experienced this REM consciously before (or at least do not remember) and it seemed to go on for about 10 minutes. I tried to look up, as I had heard this was a good method for transition. but it didn’t work. I was adamant not to move my body as I didn’t want to wake myself up so was unsure whether I was in SP or not. I felt I was so close to transferring but I had no visual images at all to transfer into. Eventually the flickering subsided and I was awake again. I tried this exact same induction again with the same results. Frustrating but I feel I have made good progress. My questions are;

Does REM usually come before SP?
What is a good method to transfer into the LD from REM, I have heard counting is good?

P.S. - I also have an alarm set for around 5am that triggers a wav file for a WILD the usual way but will persist with this method as it seems I am having some progress. Also I will try a sleep mask tonight to see if that helps with the crazy REMs.

Thanks

You shouldn't be able to move in REM, unless I'm not reading your post correctly. If you are wilding, you might see hallucinations before you paralyze, but these are not REM yet, just a precursor called hypnogogic hallucinations.

That interesting, As I said I was unsure whether I was paralyzed or not as I did not want to move for fear of waking up. So I will try this again tonight and try to move during REM to see if I am able.

Well had a strange one last night. Was so tired when I went to bed, put my sleeping mask on and lay back to listen to my dream induction CD. Within seconds my eyes started to rapidly move again before I was even properly relaxed. Now I’m starting to wonder if this is true REM or something else?
After about 45 minutes of not moving and gently having REM every now and again I failed to let myself go enough to transfer. and eventually gave up.
I awoke at around 3:30, used to toilet and tried again, still after another 30 minutes having no success, so I decided to call it a night. I suspect I may need to wake later, so this is what I will do on my next attempt.

So has anyone else experienced this REM almost immediately from going to bed?

Yeah! i have tried wilding without being asleep prior, and my eyes just go CRAZY, i starting counting 1: i am dreaming etc.... because i started hearing music and saw hallucinations but my eyes made it hard to concentrate. then it stopped and i slowly opened my eyes and turns out i must have screwed something up because i was awake =/

Good Luck!!!

That happened to me last night... I had been up for about 17hrs. I attempted to WILD, and I was hitting REM before my body did Sleep Paralysis, which was within 20min. My muscles and limbs were constantly twitching. I wasnt Lucid, but anytime my "Dream Movie" would play, and I was moving, my body moved. I kept still, but for some reason the same thing kept happening. Im positive it was a dream and not just images. There was actions, a plot, reasons, sounds, visuals, etc...

So I got up, moved, woke my mind and body up... Then went to bed...

I think it just happens sometimes. Im not sure.

I know I'm treading where I probably shouldn't cause I have no idea what you guys are talking about but I would like to ask, is there a difference between normal sleeping and sleep paralysis? I think somewhere I read that SP is when your body is unconscious but your mind is active... But I'm not sure how you would dream if your mind is still so active? Could someone help me? Maybe then I can try it and get a successful lucid.

From what I know and have experienced, sleep paralysis is when you are exiting REM sleep. During REM, which is the most likely time for dreaming, your body locks up. So you should not be moving or even able to. Sleep paralysis occurs as you are exiting REM except your mind becomes conscious before your body has completely exited REM. Therefore you may be trying to move or open your eyes and are unable to. It's happened to me before and only lasted a few seconds and then I was able to open my eyes and fully wake up.

Here is an easy explanation of what everything is and how it works...

Sleep paralysis is a stage your body enters, regardless if it is Normal-Sleep or WILD.

Normal Sleep:
1. You are/getting tired. (Your body tells your Subconscious[SC] that you are tired.
2. Your SC tells you (your waking conscious) that you are tired via body drowsiness.
3. You lay down, you thoughts drift, as you fall asleep, you(your waking conscious) fall asleep, or go on idle.
4. Your body enters sleep paralysis. (Everyone goes through this.. It makes it so you dont act out your dream in RL)
*** Since your Waking-Conscious is already asleep, you dont notice any changes, "tests", signals, etc. ***

Waking Sleep or WILD
1. You are/getting tired. (Your body tells your Subconscious[SC] that you are tired.
2. Your SC tells you (your waking conscious) that you are tired via body drowsiness.
3. As you lay down, and keep awake, you realize that its not necessarily you that are tired, but your body.
4. You relax more, and eventually to the point where you would be if you(Your waking conscious) had fallen asleep.
5. Your body assumes that you are asleep, gets really heavy/relaxed, and soon begins to "test" you.
*** This is done by giving you itches, making loud sounds to startle you, voices, or even body sensations/feelings. ***
6. If the body doesn't receive any "commands" that you are awake, (ex, moving, twitching, jumping, etc) it will continue to the next stages.
*** This includes getting startled, change of breathing, rush of adrenaline, etc.. Your body will pick up on any changes ***
7. Depending on how awake you are, Sleep Paralysis may set. If you are to awake, you will just lay there with a heaviness on you.
8. Once SP sets in, you will begin to lose awareness of your surroundings, and become awake of your dream world. (If you dream)
9. Now, you are either dreaming, Lucid dreaming, or seeing imagery.


Here is how your REM cycle works. (In general for most people)
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/4...epgraph300.jpg


The Stages of Sleep

Stage 1 (Transition to sleep) – Stage 1 lasts about five minutes. Eyes move slowly under the eyelids, muscle activity slows down, and you are easily awakened.

Stage 2 (Light sleep) – This is the first stage of true sleep, lasting from 10 to 25 minutes. Eye movement stops, heart rate slows, and body temperature decreases.

Stage 3 (Deep sleep) – You’re difficult to awaken, and if you are awakened, you do not adjust immediately and often feel groggy and disoriented for several minutes.

Stage 4 (More intense deep sleep) – The deepest stage of sleep. Brain waves are extremely slow. Blood flow is directed away from the brain and towards the muscles, restoring physical energy.

REM sleep (Dream sleep) – About 70 to 90 minutes after falling asleep, you enter REM sleep, where dreaming occurs. Eyes move rapidly. Breathing is shallow. Heart rate and blood pressure increase. Arm and leg muscles are paralyzed.


Hope that explained it a little bit. =) ~Siph~

That was a great explanation Siphorix, I think I'll try that some day soon. I've moved from Las Vegas to a place with a lot of farms and stuff so I'm always doing farm work, I'm hoping that one day I'll be physically exhausted enough to go straight to SP. I've had a couple instances where my body would twitch before sleep, but I've never heard voices or stuff. If I am in sleep paralysis, can I still LD? Or is it hallucinations?

Generally, in order to LD, you have to go into Sleep Paralysis... In order to dream, or even get the type of sleep where your body repairs and rejuvenates, you have to enter sleep paralysis.. Whether you are conscious of it or not.

That's one of the funnest parts about WILD.

You lay there, you feel your body relax, you mind relaxes. You feel your body start to get heavy. You hear little sounds and feel little body tests. After that you get some form of body/head sensation. (For me, it feels like im falling through the sky while my body spins like a helicopter propeller). It's a huge body/mind rush.

siphorix...so far my only lucids have been DILDs, and i have been thinking about trying to WBTB WILD. the problem is i fall back asleep too fast. what is your best method to keep the mind awake while the body falls asleep? also...what are the sensations and visuals from switching from SP into the dreamstate? i have seen a few vauge answers but never anything i could really relate to or fully comprehend. thanks

Siph, something similar to that happened to me last night, while trying a MILD. I felt my body sink into my bed and my head felt like it was being pulled inward, out of my body, and it started to feel like I was spinning. But for the life of me I couldn't get comfortable so I was snapped out of it. Does this mean I was on the right track?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Siphorix

Generally, in order to LD, you have to go into Sleep Paralysis... In order to dream, or even get the type of sleep where your body repairs and rejuvenates, you have to enter sleep paralysis.. Whether you are conscious of it or not.

That's one of the funnest parts about WILD.

You lay there, you feel your body relax, you mind relaxes. You feel your body start to get heavy. You hear little sounds and feel little body tests. After that you get some form of body/head sensation. (For me, it feels like im falling through the sky while my body spins like a helicopter propeller). It's a huge body/mind rush.

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I get to the end frequently without crossing over into dream, basically stage 7 I can hit almost every time I try. I also experience that rapid eye twitching occasionally that thefunze asked about.

The way my body tests me I simply hate and is so distracting I think that may be why I can't WILD anymore. My brain is to damn clever for my own good :D

It makes me gasp for air out of nowhere... where in a split second I feel as if I was on the verge of suffocating; my leg twitches are becoming so intense now that they rock back and forth or almost lift up; I get severe sinking, falling or flushes in my head or body, hear voices or noise and bass, and the other night I thought I was going into dream and instead I basically sat up in bed and my arms rose over my head, without me using my muscles. It was so bizarre a feeling as it was effortless. Then my eyes started to open so I knew I was awake and then and I could start to move, but my legs were still paralyzed.

Maybe I'll just be like Homer Simpson and threaten to stab my brain with a qtip if it doesn't shut up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DreamscapeExplorer

siphorix...so far my only lucids have been DILDs, and i have been thinking about trying to WBTB WILD. the problem is i fall back asleep too fast. what is your best method to keep the mind awake while the body falls asleep? also...what are the sensations and visuals from switching from SP into the dreamstate? i have seen a few vauge answers but never anything i could really relate to or fully comprehend. thanks

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I answered another guy who had a similar question. I have much different method and routine then most people on here. Sometimes I will stay up until 4am, and be quite exhausted when I'm ready to go to bed. ..and other times I will go to bed at 10pm.

Everyone's REM cycle is different, and is set to that person. It does get affected by your nutrition, how tired you are, stress, and your physical state. The chart a few posts above give a good generalization of REM cycles for the average person. (Assuming the person goes to bed at a consistent time, and gets 8hrs of sleep)

I haven't really pinpointed my REM times/cycles, considering my changing sleep pattern, nutrition, etc etc. I also have a slightly different set of methods I try then most people who WILD on here.

Personally, when I go to bed, I throw on my Sleep Induction audio tracks.What's nice about them, is that I can doze off as if I would normally, while barely keeping my logical part of my mind awake (will explain what I do late for that). Once I begin to doze off, the audio has periodic "wake-up" sounds which carefully grab your attention and keep your conscious mind on the brink of being awake.

---> This is until I can do it without the use of Audio. <---

The general practice for the WBTB technique is to set your alarm and wake up about [4 to 4-1/2] hrs into your sleep, then attempt to WILD. That is where your REM cycles begin to lengthen.
(eg. If you are going to bed at 10:00pm, you will want to wake up at 2:30am)

Once you are awake, it is recommended that you get up and do something active, get your mind awake, since laying there, you are about 80% more likely to does off to sleep.
When I get up, I will go to the restroom, get something light to drink, usually with a little caffine (like sprite), maybe do some laundry.

*** Try not to stretch, flex, exercise. You want to keep your body in a relaxed, calm state. ***

You want to remain awake for about 30-45min before returning back to bed to WILD.



Here is my PERSONAL routine for WILD... Some may disagree with it, but it def has pros and cons.

I will set my alarm for 4-1/2hrs + another 1/2hr
I will WILD right off the bat, right when I go to bed. This way, if I am able to hit REM early, I will start my LD first off. If I fall asleep, or give up cause its not happening, I will be woken up in 4-1/2hrs anyways.


What's nice about WILD is you can usually always tell it's a dream (unless its false awakening).

Before the stage of dreaming is Sleep Paralysis. Once you hit this stage, surrounding sounds, feelings, etc will fade out...

After that is hard to explain what the transition is like, considering it changes with each person, and with each dream. I liken it to being on your computer in the dark. You can see the main area pretty clear, etc. ...but the surrounding area is dark, fuzzy, your cant focus on it, etc.

You will be there on your bed, usually def, sometimes seeing some Hypnogotic images, etc. Then more images will literally flash in-front of you. Sometimes very clear and crisp, other kind of fuzzy. (Like looking at a HD image on your pc, or trying to read a magazine through your great-grandma's glasses)... Shortly the images will begin to flow into a movie/scene. (Like the old slide movie projectors did). Now you have a free-flowing seen. It may or may not be "full-screen" and/or clear.

Shortly (depending on what the dream is about), you will begin to make use of your "dream senses", which are VERY similar to your real ones. However, in the dream world, you have more then just 5 senses.

Since you are mentally awake during the whole transition, you are aware of whats happening, and that it is a dream.

There are a few techniques to enter Lucidity, take control, "walk into your dream", or move from watching a "part sized movie" to a "full screen 3D life".





MSN = chl0rid3-at-hotmail.com
AIM = chaostaze
Skype = mrchl0rid3

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VegasDreaming

Siph, something similar to that happened to me last night, while trying a MILD. I felt my body sink into my bed and my head felt like it was being pulled inward, out of my body, and it started to feel like I was spinning. But for the life of me I couldn't get comfortable so I was snapped out of it. Does this mean I was on the right track?

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That is very tricky to answer.
1st, mine aren't uncomfortable. I usually get SERIOUS itches, and sometimes a lower back ache. (a test to scratch, or roll over)
2nd, if you just go with it, while keeping the same mental state, you will reach the next stage in the WILD process.

Here is the twist.
That COULD be the start of an OBE (a different type of LD). There are many ways to test if that is the case, see if your are LDing, etc.
-or-
Your body was moving to the next stage, which is what the body sensations were, WHILE it was testing to see if you are actually awake.
-or-
You had already hit all the stages, and when you moved, it started a false awakening.

The body will sometimes give you the WORST feeling of pain, uncomfortableness, itches, tingles, feeling of asleep, etc. - It does this so that if you really are awake, you will react to them. Your body doesnt want you make you completely paralyzed if you are actually awake...

(Before I new what LDing, Sleep Paralysis, etc was, on many occasions, I would wake up, being completely paralysed unable to move and muscle on my body.. It was the most frightening thing in the world, I was having a panic attack. I thought My brain detached from my body, or something went wrong. I thought I could be stuck in that state, unable to move or call for help.. and no-one would know what was wrong with me, that I would evetually die)...

To prevent that and other feelings/shocks, your body will do a series of "tests" throughout different stages. Once it is convinced you(your conscious mind) is asleep, it will then proceed.



MSN = chl0rid3-at-hotmail.com
AIM = chaostaze
Skype = mrchl0rid3

Guys, sleep paralysis isn't a nightly occurrence unless you have Isolated Sleep Paralysis which is a sleep disorder where people go through sleep paralysis on a normal basis. Sleep paralysis happens either just before or after REM sleep and has nothing to do with locking your body from acting out your dreams.

REM-atonia occurs during REM to keep you from acting our your dreams. Sleep paralysis is simply a term for experiencing paralysis while sleeping. REM-atonia is the scientific term for our body locking up during REM to stop from acting out dreams (or else you'd have REM Behavior Disorder).

There are some tutorials in my signature.

Btw, I welcome you to the community thefunze :D

Hey thanks for all the responses. Had a bit a breakthrough last night in the form of a DILD, my first LD in this new set of attempts, so am very happy with myself this morning.
I Listened to a hemi sync lucid dream induction MP3 from when I first went to bed and managed to get to a stage where I was having some pretty realistic visuals, I was imagining running through a forest and over a bridge then diving into the river just letting the journey unfold in front of me.
It became so real that I slipped into the dream a couple of times but pulled myself back aware that I was losing consciousness.
I seem to have the uncontrollable REM problem under control by closing my eyes more completely but was unable to transfer.

After giving up on that attempt I slept through till 4.45 and was woken by my chosen WAV sample on my laptop alarm (Neo from the matrix "You ever have that feeling where you're not sure if you're awake or still dreaming?) The sample woke me up and I was moving before I registered what it was. So my plan to just slip into a lucid without moving was lost and I lay there for another 40 minutes or so trying to get a WILD. I had similar results as the night before and so just went into normal sleep eventually.

Then during my dream I was walking around a the back streets of a labyrinth of buildings and I realized I was dreaming. I performed a reality check ( I have been obsessively doing the pinch nose RC for the last 3 days when just about anything happens.) To my delight I breathed right through my finger and thumb. Yes this was what I had been waiting for, I immediately flew into the air and started to ascend, slowly reaching the roofs of the lower buildings and getting closer to the tops of the medium sized buildings. I became aware that this flying was taking considerable amount of time. Like how it feels when you are in an airplane and you feel like the land below you is moving very slowly compared to how fast you think you are traveling. I was heading towards a high tower and decided to speed up the process by teleporting myself closer. I was then inside this tower and running around the rooms exploring. this eventually became a normal dream. but I achieved my objective that night as I told subconscious that I wanted to fly in my LD and that I was I did. For future attempts I will give myself more constructive tasks.

Happy dreams all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thefunze

Hey thanks for all the responses. Had a bit a breakthrough last night in the form of a DILD, my first LD in this new set of attempts, so am very happy with myself this morning.
I Listened to a hemi sync lucid dream induction MP3 from when I first went to bed and managed to get to a stage where I was having some pretty realistic visuals, I was imagining running through a forest and over a bridge then diving into the river just letting the journey unfold in front of me.
It became so real that I slipped into the dream a couple of times but pulled myself back aware that I was losing consciousness.
I seem to have the uncontrollable REM problem under control by closing my eyes more completely but was unable to transfer.

After giving up on that attempt I slept through till 4.45 and was woken by my chosen WAV sample on my laptop alarm (Neo from the matrix "You ever have that feeling where you're not sure if you're awake or still dreaming?) The sample woke me up and I was moving before I registered what it was. So my plan to just slip into a lucid without moving was lost and I lay there for another 40 minutes or so trying to get a WILD. I had similar results as the night before and so just went into normal sleep eventually.

Then during my dream I was walking around a the back streets of a labyrinth of buildings and I realized I was dreaming. I performed a reality check ( I have been obsessively doing the pinch nose RC for the last 3 days when just about anything happens.) To my delight I breathed right through my finger and thumb. Yes this was what I had been waiting for, I immediately flew into the air and started to ascend, slowly reaching the roofs of the lower buildings and getting closer to the tops of the medium sized buildings. I became aware that this flying was taking considerable amount of time. Like how it feels when you are in an airplane and you feel like the land below you is moving very slowly compared to how fast you think you are traveling. I was heading towards a high tower and decided to speed up the process by teleporting myself closer. I was then inside this tower and running around the rooms exploring. this eventually became a normal dream. but I achieved my objective that night as I told subconscious that I wanted to fly in my LD and that I was I did. For future attempts I will give myself more constructive tasks.

Happy dreams all.

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Dude, that is AWESOME! Congrats...

Try doing periodic stabilization and vividness techniques throughout the dream. It will help prevent LD-to-NormD transfers like that. Also, keep your awareness up, remind yourself you are conscious and dreaming.

That's cool though. GJ

Hey Siphorix, thanks for all your information, you know your stuff dude! Can you tell me what periodic stabilization is as I have not heard of it before? have previously managed to spin to prolong the dream and used to look at my hands almost all the way though so as not to lose lucidity, that worked but I found it quite disablilitating. It’s fantastic to learn all this new stuff that can be tried and tested.

Cheers!

Here is a really nice tutorial section that DV has... It covers many topics, however, some leave out a few details...
Tutorials

....and here is the one on stabilization and vividness....
http://www.dreamviews.com/f25/dream-...utorial-95034/

Wow, hey congratulations :)

That's pretty cool that you were able to teleport too, I've never been able to do that yet. Would you mind explaining what you did?

I got itches and twitches and stuff too but the itches could be just because I have eczema. I just posted the spinning part because that felt really odd, like someone below me was gently pulling my head inwards to my chest.

I usually get the opposite. haha.. I feel like im growing.. Like a giant, like my body is getting stretched apart. It's really trippy, lol. I usually feel like a T-Rex. A long body and little arms...

Hey louie54, With regards to the teleportation in this instance, it wasnt as if i actually did anything i just noticed the time it was taking getting to the tower and just willed myself closer. In previous attempts to teleport i have closed my eyes and re imagined the place i want to be. I have achieved this twice before and failed a few times too. Sometimes it just does not seem possible and others very natural.

Had another DILD over the weekend. I haven’t been doing any WILD attempts of even many RC’s of late because of a Job interview I have been preparing for.

The night after my interview I had an amazing DILD. It started with a false awakening I was in this bedroom that I did not recognize. The sun shined through the net curtains of this very feminine bedroom that was decorated with white antique furniture. I awoke in this room and had no idea where I was. I looked around and tried an nose pinch reality check? It failed?? So I was awake. But as I looked around I just knew this was not any place that I recognized in any way. So I tried again. This time confirming my suspicions.

I immediately jumped out of the bed heading for the window. I looked back, a woman lay asleep in the bed, My Girlfriend I assumed.
I continued to the window flying straight through the glass and into the open air. I looked at my hands a few times and spun. I had remembered to spin from not doing it in my last attempt and ever since whenever I did a RC in waking life I would turn my head to the left and imagine spinning so that I would become a natural reflex action in a LD. It had worked! Every time I looked at my hands I would also spin and I felt as though I had stabilized completely into my dream body.

I flew towards a building. I noticed a few moments of loss of consciousness. Much like when you are on the bus and deep in thought and you don’t notice the journey. The effect of this was chunks visual space just didn’t exist as I thought about other things.

As I reached the building I looked through the windows and noticed office workers going about their business. I flew right through the wall with confidence and was now in a long l shaped corridor, people buzzed past me and I could make out a conversation between 2 managers. I listened intently as I approached them and although I could make out every work I hadn’t the faintest idea what they were talking about.

I flew out of the other side of the building and began to decent height like I was losing my flying abilities. I noticed a woman with a pram on ground level and decided to jump into flight again. This worked and I was now about 11 stories high outside the window of a tower block. I looked through the windows and saw a couple. I entered the building and the woman I had seen was just leaving the room.

I decided to have a chat with the Guy and sat on his bed as he watched TV. Although I was aware he had no idea who I was, I pretended to be a family member and he talked to me as if he knew me. As I looked at the TV I became astounded. It was an old black and white TV my friend used to have in his flat. I examined the TV and every detail was exactly the same as I remembered it. It was a perfectly accurate 3d version of my friends TV except it was in colour, But the thing was I hadn’t seen that TV in 10 years.

I was filled with a feeling of nostalgia, and this must have distracted me from remembering I was in a dream and I went into a normal dream after that. Then woke moments later exhilarated and wrote it all down in the bathroom in my dream journal much to my girlfriends confusion. All in all It was a very clear and vivid LD and despite not getting much done I was very happy about the whole experience.