Thread: Are There Shortcuts in Spiritual Development? If so...

I personlly don't think so, but I am sure there are a lot of people who would disagree.

I doubt it. "I shall acheive perpetual enlightement by smoking a bong" dosen't sound right to me.

Originally posted by Kaniaz
I doubt it. \"I shall acheive perpetual enlightement by smoking a bong\" dosen't sound right to me.

kaniaz once again puts forth perfectly sound arguments in a funny way.

but then again, i believe otherwise. spiritual development is all about conditioning your mind, yes? drugs do just that, im sure if you spent a lot of time researching one, you could come up with a drug to alter your mind the same way people achieve via the hard way.

but i seriously doubt if it exists in a natural state (such as cannabis). such a thing would have to be very specific in its alterations to your mind, it would have to be man-made.

It depends on your viewpoint of spiritual development. For me, that means growing closer to Christ and striving to live more like him. Some others believe it's attaining "enlightenment" and others may have different views. So, you'd have to define exactly what you wanted to do, and then work from there. That's my idea.

-Amé

I don't know how you get enlightement when your not in your right mind, which is an effect of drugs.

"If you ask for the key to enlightenment it will make you free but it aint free....." ~Gift of Gab

ummmm, no? very much no?

Spiritual development is not something that should be rushed, ever. It is not something that should be pushed. This is an example I showed to somebody else sometimes, though in a diffirent situation. in a nutshell though

For the sake of this picture spiritual development as a road/path, and enlightment or whatever higher goal you have in mind the finish line.(even though the road never ends, lets just say the finish line is the goal for this world/life). Now there are 2 ways to go there,

A- you run your ass over there with everything you have, never stopping, running your lungs out, taking stimulating drugs..etc. When you arrive there you will have been running and running and your soul is exausted and trashed..get the point I guess

B- you take your time and walk calmly enjoying the environment and take a stop now and then to regain some energy and enjoy and smell the roses next to the path learning about your environment. You take some more time but ultimately reach the finish line, your soul strong and revitalized. Learned alot about your environment and had a great time doing it aswell.

Now in which situation did you really achieve what you wanted?

This is just my opinion..but I dont think you should use any shortcuts. Do whatever you feel is right though.

The propaganda of the old priests to keep people away from the mind powers they had is still alive and well I see, they certianly were powerful. Mmmmmm, power.

i dissagree! from my experiance with hallucinogens and amphetimins they will not put enlightenment in the palm of your hand but they will guide you!

if the path to enlightenment was set in a dark forest hallucinogenic substances would be the moon light shining through the cannopy highlighting small parts of a long winding track but never lighting up the whole path, just enouth of it so that you dont walk face first into a tree!

i dont believe that drugs should be ruled out as a guide because of propaganda spread by religions and cultures that dont understand the substances especialy when there are far older religions that have been using them since pre history for example the native american shaman and his use of peyote (a natural source of mescaline) or the european druid and his use of magic mushrooms (a natural source of lsa very similar to lsd) even tribes in the rain forest use plants that induce halucinations to guide them on the path infact the only holymen that dont use drugs are thoes of todays large organised religions like christianity and well im sure that most of you wouldent concider your local church leader to be enlightened

however if your realy deadset against using halucinogens there are several other ways to point out the path
sleep deprivation
fasting
extream isolation
all of which are pushing your body to its extreams which i wouldent recomend
you could also try meditation which can be extremly tedious and hard to stay on track
the only other thing i can think of would be to read litrature like "the doors of perception" or the wrightings of "Carlos Castaneda" however you will find that most of these books writers were heavy users of hallucinogens so im guessing any enlightenment gained from these books could be concidered as cheep as the drugs themselves

either way if you do end up using drugs for your journey make sure you know what your doing and that your safe by researching on sites like www.erowid.org
it also has lots of user experiances which are an intresting read and will maby help you understand how hallucinogens help you question your enviroment and guide your path to enlightenment

I really don't intend to use drugs. I know I have lots of time not just in this lifetime, but I'm pretty sure in others that succede this one. I will advance spiritually in each lifetime learning new lessons. As for religions and enlightenment with drugs, here's one for you. Buddha, Jesus, and many many Indian Yogis have attained enligtenment or (opened the gates to the divine as they say), through pure meditation. I myself am currently unaware of any person who has ever reached enlightenment using drugs. But if you feel like you no, please, enlighten me on the subject... (ha I love puns )

firstly our beliefs differ i personaly believe we are here once only and that IF there is an afterlife we will get the answers we could not find in life there

also i want to highlight that i said drugs do not give instant enlightenment but help guide you! and that im not saying that drugs are the only rout to enlightenment or that you personaly should use them for your journey just do not dissmiss them as a, if not the most powerfull tool to guiding your way or label them as cheep


as i said in the post above it is posibal to achieve forms of enlightenment by pushing your body to extreams 40days and nights (jesus) in the desert would count as extream isolation and fasting! something that is far more likley to do you harm than good! (also as the son of god i think he would have had certain advantages)
im not compleatly sure of the story of budda (so am likley to be wrong here) but i believe he gave up every thing money women etc to sit under a tree meditating for 30 years before he reached enlightenment personaly i see this as an extream as although you want your enlightenment im sure you would not sacrafice your chance to have a family, large house and the other material joys of life for it, i certainly wouldent

also these people are the basis of there religions for a reason its because of the amasing things they have done that are concidered miracles or beyond human capability (also some may be pure myth)

as for the indian holymen or yogi's i think you will find opium is oftern used in large amounts

personaly i have used large amounts of several diffrent hallucinogens (am clean now but still studdy drug history and culture) and i do not claim enlightenment or to be better than anyone at any thing however i do feel that drugs started me on my personal path and have brought me closer to understanding and it certainly doesnot feel cheep or unjustly gained!
the main insparation on my personal journey is a trip were i realised science is a religion! now if you disregard this religion and ignore what it teaches you cannot answer a simple question like what is plastic? where does it come from? i then realised how much i take for granted everything i know is based on other peoples discoverys and that i realy did not and still do not understand the world around me!

it is questions and thoughts like this that will guide your path weather they are brought to your attention via drugs , meditation , extream hardship or litrature

finaly there is no way to judge enlightenment each person has there own view of it just as we each have our own personal goals. to me enlightenment is compleat understanding of ones soul/mind and suroundings to other people enlightenment may be oneness to god (personaly i dont believe jesus to be enlightened more a tool of a god but thats a diffrent arguement )

i hope i have helped to answered the part of your original post

Pertaining to drugs... If so, are drugs a shortcut or a viable method? [/b]

I gotta agree with acid cat on this one. He has made some very valid points which there is not much point adding to but I will add this.

Taking drugs makes you question things. Instead of just sitting there doing everything the way society tells you, you start to question why they are that way, you sit there and you analyse situations, philosophys over everything. You look deep into things, including ourself and you can work a hell of alot of stuff out about yourself and the world. You learn to apreciate the little things, like the friendship of your mates, instead of being so concerned with the big house and 5 cars cos you know that stuff doesn't really matter.

In this world success is generally accounted for.. by money and material possesions. Its a shame... but drugs have helped me realised that is not what is important. If I have a succesfully day its because I was happy, not because I was able to get myself the upgraded Athlon 64.

Also I don't think all drugs have the same sorta effect on your enlightenment.. and they should be used in moderation in general as apposed to smacking your body so hard with them that you can't speak for a week.
Even the christian god said everythign is good in moderation.. and i think the only thing against drugs in there, is that you have to obey the laws of whatever country your in.

Shamans have been using halucigenics like peyote and mushrooms for years. If you think about it.. these are natureally occouring halucigenics... they have to be there for a reason.
I believe that these can help break down the walls of reality that the human mind puts up to protect itself from things its not prepared to see. Unfourtuanatly tho, when on these drugs, it can sometimes be difficult to shape your trip into a vision without the right control, and most of the time people are just tripping.

Cannibis i think is the thinking drug. The philosphy Drug. Hell well your sitting there lean out of your tree, there isn't much else to do, but i do find that anyone who has ever taken this drug a few times is alot more open minded an accepting in general.

XTC - Feel the love. Seriously tho, there is nothing quite like the feeling of this drug. It actually sorted out alot of my depression, because it showed me how lucky i was having the friends I had, being the person that I am.. and where I may not have much in the line of Material wealth, I am a very wealthy man.

Drugs like Crack, Cocain, and Heroin.. well.. i don't think they hold any real benifits. I haven't tryed heroin tho so i can't really say.

I think drugs are an experiance that should only be undertaken by those of a strong mind.. because with excessive use, they are very detrimental to your physical and mental health... but are also, fun, and enlightening. And all those fucking scare stories you see put out by the governent are such bullshit. And the people just belive it blindly... they don't believe anything there government says unless it a scare story about drugs.. then its gospal.

Why not base something upon fact instead of scare tactics and properganda? Well the people who haven't taken drugs don't question this and don't care.. and the people that do are looked down upon as if they are immoral devils who should be sent back to the goo they spawned from.

Taking drugs makes you question things[/b]

Yeah, usually because the walls are melting.

lol kaniaz...

and I don't demonize anybody becuase they take drugs and I'm not a government sheep anyways. The goverments view on drugs doesn't even view drugs as "bad" in the same way or concept the I do. I'm just figuring everything out as I go along. I don't want to try anything I don't feel like is good for me.

As for the Indian Yogis, possibly some use opium, but many have not. I would encourage any of you to read the autobiography of paramanhansa yogananda (spelling?), very enligtening book that has inspired me to look for the right path in this world.

Also reaching enlightenment for the buddhist and yogis isn't about being an ascetic. It's about taking the middle path. Buddha found that out on his path.

Here are some quotes for you yall...

Zen Master Soeng Sahn was asked what he thought about using drugs to help in the quest for self knowledge he said: "Yes, there there are special medicines, which, if taken with the proper attitude, can facilitate self-realization." Then he added: "But if you have the proper attitude, you can take anything - take a walk, or a bath. "

Even among the relatively conscious explorers of contemporary psychedelics, addiction and attachment has sometimes been a problem. Even more critical is the overly positive message about both the spiritual and the casual use of these drugs that has been adopted by quite a few people who could not handle them well at all.

"This is an attachment to natural-style or hippie-style living. It is no good for a Zen student. Many people take special medicine and understand themselves. But their understanding is only thinking. It is not attainment. True attainment of emptiness means that all thinking has been cut off. There are neither likes nor dislikes. Natural-style living is good. Plastic-style living is good. There are no attachments to anything."

Zen Master Soeng Sahn was asked what he thought about using drugs to help in the quest for self knowledge he said: \"Yes, there there are special medicines, which, if taken with the proper attitude, can facilitate self-realization.\" Then he added: \"But if you have the proper attitude, you can take anything - take a walk, or a bath. \" [/b]

i agree with this fully.. but it leaves your original question

Are there any shortcuts on the path to spiritual development?[/b]

kinda invalid as it seems you already knew your answer

the quote also says what ive been trying to say that drugs donot provide instant enlightenment but shine some light on the path or help you to achieve the attitude needed for self realisation that the western world and most of the rest of it now lacks due to technology being placed above spirituality and nature


and lol kansis every time ive taken enouth to see walls melt the visuals have been to overpowering and actually blocked my ability to question or think well anything more than mmmmm pritty

I knew my answer, but I was asking others to see there input...

ok then. As long as drugs give you the right attitude to look for something beyong our everyday lives then thats fine. But there are lots of other ways to find that attitude. A movie, a book, a speech, reading about paranormal events. People like Lucius and I have already found the attitude. I don't need to take a pill to remind me of it. The same type of experience could be obtained naturallly, through an OBE, or a lucid dream. My dreams are getting more vivid everyday. I'm straddling the breakthrough point where I truly am concious in them. Drugs offer to much of a high to handle for some people. Which is why I don't think there very safe. They can become addictive and be used for the wrong reasons. It happens often. People need strong minds.

I've never heard of a "bad meditation or OBE." But I've plenty of times heard of a "bad trip" on drugs. Trips that people have flashbacks of for the rest of there lives. Trips that completely hinder there own spiritual development. It's definetely possible for people to drop down to the lower astral realms if there subconcious is not prepared enough for something like that. However, if you've done enough work and built up enough mind control to have other paranormal experiences that usually doesn't happen. They are prepared. Don't get me wrong, it's possible, but much more unlikely. Drugs give the experience without the work so I they can be dangerous. A bad trip can screw people up for a long time. An addiction is even worse. Sometimes people misjudge other drugs like cocaine heroin etc. (bad drugs) thinking they will recieve similar effects and develop an addiction. When people take drugs for good feelings, and not to explore, then there is a problem. Some of you all may be more experienced, but first time users, not so much. All I'm trying to say is that there are other ways, maybe not as powerful, but just the same can set you upon the right path, with the right attitude. Drugs are a chance...

Originally posted by Kaniaz

Taking drugs makes you question things

Yeah, usually because the walls are melting.[/b]

Haha, you crack me up Kaniaz.
That one made me laugh out loud literally

My opinion isn't very thought out, and to haven't had the time to read all these massive posts yet
I'd say though, that it depends on what you perceive as spiritual enlightenment.

If you believe it to be understanding and questioning of all things, and an overall grasp of the way everything ties in... I'd say nobody gets to the end of that road. But drugs *could* help to get the more elusive questions. But in that state of mind, the answers are generally equally bullsh*t

ie. The answer to why the walls are melting, would be equally useless. Thus most of the drug-induced spiritual development seems a bit pointless IMO

I do not think that you can 'rush' your own spiritual development. The reason for this is: Everyone has their own path, thier own way to get to the enlightnenment and knowledge they seek spiritually. You do things to develop this. For some people, it takes a few months, and for some years or even their whole lifetimes. People are different. Thier upbringing, interests, and people they associate theselves with influence all of this in some way. For some, taking certain hallucinagens helps to change your perspective, or helps you notice something you hadn't before. I do not believe that taking drugs just for the sheer shit of taking them will help you spiritually, also. Go into the experienc wanting to learn, wanting to see the way, and you will come out of it wiser. There is no "quick fix" per se on this type of thing, and spiritual enlightenment isn't something you can just half ass. Take your time, and if your really serious about it, it will come.
Oh, and acidcat- Glad to see you've read Carlos Casteneda and Aldous Huxley. They are both exquisite writers, and Carlos Casteneda is certaunly where it's at for shamanistic writing. I love Carlos Casteneda because he himself embodies all of the teachings which he outlines in all of his books. If anyone has not read these authors and are interested in things like that, you really must.