New colors?

[saddlebacks]

I am not very good at lucid dreaming at all. Although ive been working deligintly at it for quite some time, i havent had more than a very short, half-lucid dream. But i was considering the possibility of viewing new colors in a dream. My thinking is that, your perception of the world and its colors is limited by your eyes. Its a scientific fact that insects can see colors that we humans cannot. Yet i wonder if our minds are capable of imagining other colors. This made me think of people who are born blind, although its probably a very rare occurance, they must see some colors in their mind right? These colors are probably nothign like the ones we know. Anyway, i was just wondering if anyone had done any expiriements with this, or thought about this before.

[Night Wolf]

Firstly, I don't really know whether it would be possible to imagine new colours, mainly because in our dreams we are still in some ways restricted by our visual perception from our experiences of waking life. Certainly though, many more things are possible in dreams, so someone is bound to prove me wrong! To answer your query on blind people and dreams, I was reading a thread in the Tutorials section on the subject which said: In studies from the University of California (2) on several patients and their recordings of dreams led to four empirical generlizations: * * *1. There are no visual images in the dreams of those born without any ability to experience visual imagery in waking life. * * *2. Individuals who become blind before the age of five seldom experience visual imagery in their dreams, although Deutsch (1928) reports some visual imagery in six schoolchildren who lost their sight before age five. * * *3. Those who become sightless between the ages of five and seven may or may not retain some visual imagery. * * *4. Most people who lost their vision after age seven continue to experience at least some visual imagery, although its frequency and clarity often fade with time. * What the blind then see's in there dreams is a conglomeration of auditory, gastatory, olfactory, and tactile sensations. One could not exactly portray how the blind interacts with their dreams except by saying, \"Close your eyes and walk around the room. That is how the blind dream.\" The primary reason the majority of people cannot begin to comprehend how blind people can dream is because of the subject perception of dreaming - people who have had sight their whole life have visual dreams nearly 100% of the time, thus it is difficult to imagine dreaming without the visual representation. Arrow Can the blind dream in color? First, I must postulate why and how colors are brought into dreaming: Colors are typically utilised to amplify images within dreams. Every colors has a certain empathy associated with it and certain objects and scenarios in the world are always associated with a certain color (ie. The Red Cross). Thus, when we see certain depictions within our dreams, our memories will immediately impart the colors into the dream because we believe that they should be there. When the colors are empathetic, it is to portray a certain feeling (ie. Red = anger). Also, colors are implemented into dreams by our memories of the colors, they are not received or projected visually, they are simply memories. The best way to elucidate this is to ask this question, \"When you remember things you did years ago, do you usually remember them in color?\" The answer, typically, is no - unless the color played a significant role in the memory. This is the same case with dreams, as dreams are the manifestation of thoughts and memories (in the psychological aspect...). If the individual had sight before the age of five, it is possible to have the rare experience of seeing a color or even a visual dream. Otherwise, if the blind individual was born blind - they will not even have visual dreams. Participants whom are congenital blind and totally blind claim that 0% of their dreams were visual, and that 52% of their dreams consisted of taste/ smell/touch (gastatory, olfactory, tactile). * There is not even a question whether or not they see color because they do not see at all.[/b] Cheers O'nus. Also, you might be interested in Howetzer's thread in the Research section on colour in dreams. Here's the link anyways: http://www.dreamviews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23211 Hope that helps! Laters.

[JEBOman]

You can indeed see colors not seen in your waking state, but you won't be able to comprehend them very well in your waking state(I know from experience). If you want to see some super cool light show look at the sun and wait for the neurons to die(not recomended) I swear you will see some new colors then too.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by saddlebacks I am not very good at lucid dreaming at all. Although ive been working deligintly at it for quite some time, i havent had more than a very short, half-lucid dream. But i was considering the possibility of viewing new colors in a dream. My thinking is that, your perception of the world and its colors is limited by your eyes. Its a scientific fact that insects can see colors that we humans cannot. Yet i wonder if our minds are capable of imagining other colors. This made me think of people who are born blind, although its probably a very rare occurance, they must see some colors in their mind right? These colors are probably nothign like the ones we know. Anyway, i was just wondering if anyone had done any expiriements with this, or thought about this before. Well, bugs can see light along a different slice of the electro-magnetic spectrum from what we perceive, but that does not mean that they see in different 'colors'. They may see the same 'reds', 'blues', 'greens', etc as we see, only that those same 'colors' are phase shifted to another section of the electromagnetic spectrum. We see the way the Mind programs us to see. Perhaps the better example would be to speak about the tastes of food. We perceive sweetness as desirable because foods that are sweet are rich in calories and are at the peak of their ripeness while still being fresh. Salt is another desireable taste because the body requires more salt than would occur to it unless it was actively sought out. In the negative direction, unhealthy foods have bad tastes. This is not to say that taste actually belongs to these things, except in the sense as the Human Mind has assigned them. Just imagine how a flies sense of taste must differ from out own, as we know for a fact that flies are attracted to other things before they would prefer the human favorite of Sugar. So, anyway, the human mind has only so many colors, tastes, even feelings and emotions that it can assign to the sensory perceptual inputs coming in. Whatever the wavelength of the light, it can only be processed 7 different ways (or ten or twelve if you are a female or an interior decorator) whether you are a bug or you are human. But there are the puzzling instances of categories of color. As I hinted at above, although differences of tone and hue are recognized, sets of colors are assigned under the same name by whatever cultural habit governs such designations. For instance, among certain tribes in the South Pacific, there are only nominals for two color groups... as translated, all colors are either 'red' or 'blue' -- the 'hot' colors being subsumed in their 'red', and the 'cool' colors in their 'blue' (which, if you understood what I just said, you understand the logic of their language and thinking). But, no, you will never ever see a 'new' color. We have the 3 Primary Colors out of which all the other colors can be mixed. You might remember that this is how Television works -- that with only 3 Color Guns all possible colors can be duplicated. If there was another color, we would have found it by now.

[Howie]

Originally posted by Night Wolf Firstly, I don't really know whether it would be possible to imagine new colours, mainly because in our dreams we are still in some ways restricted by our visual perception from our experiences of waking life. Certainly though, many more things are possible in dreams, so someone is bound to prove me wrong! * To answer your query on blind people and dreams, I was reading a thread in the Tutorials section on the subject which said: In studies from the University of California (2) on several patients and their recordings of dreams led to four empirical generlizations: * * *1. There are no visual images in the dreams of those born without any ability to experience visual imagery in waking life. * * *2. Individuals who become blind before the age of five seldom experience visual imagery in their dreams, although Deutsch (1928) reports some visual imagery in six schoolchildren who lost their sight before age five. * * *3. Those who become sightless between the ages of five and seven may or may not retain some visual imagery. * * *4. Most people who lost their vision after age seven continue to experience at least some visual imagery, although its frequency and clarity often fade with time. * What the blind then see's in there dreams is a conglomeration of auditory, gastatory, olfactory, and tactile sensations. One could not exactly portray how the blind interacts with their dreams except by saying, \"Close your eyes and walk around the room. That is how the blind dream.\" The primary reason the majority of people cannot begin to comprehend how blind people can dream is because of the subject perception of dreaming - people who have had sight their whole life have visual dreams nearly 100% of the time, thus it is difficult to imagine dreaming without the visual representation. Arrow Can the blind dream in color? First, I must postulate why and how colors are brought into dreaming: Colors are typically utilised to amplify images within dreams. Every colors has a certain empathy associated with it and certain objects and scenarios in the world are always associated with a certain color (ie. The Red Cross). Thus, when we see certain depictions within our dreams, our memories will immediately impart the colors into the dream because we believe that they should be there. When the colors are empathetic, it is to portray a certain feeling (ie. Red = anger). Also, colors are implemented into dreams by our memories of the colors, they are not received or projected visually, they are simply memories. The best way to elucidate this is to ask this question, \"When you remember things you did years ago, do you usually remember them in color?\" The answer, typically, is no - unless the color played a significant role in the memory. This is the same case with dreams, as dreams are the manifestation of thoughts and memories (in the psychological aspect...). If the individual had sight before the age of five, it is possible to have the rare experience of seeing a color or even a visual dream. Otherwise, if the blind individual was born blind - they will not even have visual dreams. Participants whom are congenital blind and totally blind claim that 0% of their dreams were visual, and that 52% of their dreams consisted of taste/ smell/touch (gastatory, olfactory, tactile). * There is not even a question whether or not they see color because they do not see at all. Cheers O'nus. Also, you might be interested in Howetzer's thread in the Research section on colour in dreams. Here's the link anyways -----> color quiz Hope that helps! Laters. [/b] THANKS

[saddlebacks]

Do people who are born without sight still posses the mental capacity to see? It is said that dreams are reflective of our waking lives, so i suppose it would seem normal for blind people to dream of how their normal life is. Yet arent they still capable of dreaming in color? What if this applied to people with normal sight as well, that is, what if we had the ability to dream of other colors, yet we never did because we never do in our waking life. haha, i wish i was a better lucid dreamer so i could test this out... oh well.

[Night Wolf]

Do people who are born without sight still posses the mental capacity to see? It is said that dreams are reflective of our waking lives, so i suppose it would seem normal for blind people to dream of how their normal life is. Yet arent they still capable of dreaming in color?[/b] Blind people have no visual input because their eyes do not function. If they could get some kind of eye transplant, then yes they would still be able to see. The fact remains though, that they have no experience of visual input, essentially knocking out one of their senses. They still dream, but only of dreams incorporating the remaining 4 senses. I think it is almost impossible to imagine what a blind person's dream would be like, just the same as it would be almost impossible for a blind person to imagine what sight would be like. Did you read the stuff I posted at all? Right at the bottom it says in bold There is not even a question of whether or not they (blind people) see colour because they do not see at all.

[Ryden]

The whole "insects can see colours that we can't" thing is blown way out of proportion. People think that they see some crazy colour that we can't even comprehend, when the reality is quite different. They just see different shades of colours. The reason they can see thousands of more colours than we can is because they can see 8000 different shades of red while we can only see 3000 (not real numbers). So it's not them seeing incomprehensible insane colours, it's them seeing 5 more shades of magenta that we can't, whoopee.

[JEBOman]

Originally posted by Ryden The whole \"insects can see colours that we can't\" thing is blown way out of proportion. People think that they see some crazy colour that we can't even comprehend, when the reality is quite different. They just see different shades of colours. The reason they can see thousands of more colours than we can is because they can see 8000 different shades of red while we can only see 3000 (not real numbers). So it's not them seeing incomprehensible insane colours, it's them seeing 5 more shades of magenta that we can't, whoopee. You can't proove that light beyond the red end of the spectrum appears as a shade of red, since you can't see it, so there might be some really cool colors.

[Neruo]

I don't think It's possible. Blind people dream in sent and sounds. Or mind could make orange if you would live in a world with only red and yellow, but another color is just impposible to exist with the spectrum of visible light of our physics laws. would be cool though

[Howie]

Originally posted by Neruo I don't think It's possible. Blind people dream in sent and sounds. Or mind could make orange if you would live in a world with only red and yellow, but another color is just impposible to exist with the spectrum of visible light of our physics laws. would be cool though What your mind believes to be real at any given point it is real. So there are laws that govern what we can actually see given the eyes that we have. The spectrum is only so wide. BUT!! If you are in a lucid dream and your mind perceives a color that seems to be outside the realm of this spectrum, then it in fact believes it to be. Science cannot disprove that. Science may be able to say it was not real in the sense of principle law but your mind can think outside those rules.

[Ryden]

Originally posted by JEBOman You can't proove that light beyond the red end of the spectrum appears as a shade of red, since you can't see it, so there might be some really cool colors. Beyond the red end of the spectrum isn't light anymore, thats why it is called the "visible spectrum"; anything past it is not visible.

[Neruo]

[quote] What your mind believes to be real at any given point it is real. So there are laws that govern what we can actually see given the eyes that we have. The spectrum is only so wide. BUT!! If you are in a lucid dream and your mind perceives a color that seems to be outside the realm of this spectrum, then it in fact believes it to be. Science cannot disprove that. Science may be able to say it was not real in the sense of principle law but your mind can think outside those rules. Hmmm, if that's true we could allso have a 6th or 7th sence in dreams. Like an organ that detects radiation, or detect potatoes under the ground. Or even have a sence that can tell or there is pie in some-bodies nose. But we don't dream in other sences, and blind people allso don't.

[Howie]

Originally posted by Neruo Hmmm, if that's true we could allso have a 6th or 7th sence in dreams. Like an organ that detects radiation, or detect potatoes under the ground. Or even have a sence that can tell or there is pie in some-bodies nose. But we don't dream in other sences, and blind people allso don't. Are you expecting me to rebut this? Absolutely. If you are lucid and you can imagine it..then what is stopping you? The laws of physics, no. You would be the only one stuck to a structured reality. That is all!

[Awhislyle]

AS far as seeing a new color, no. But possible to detect colors in other ways, possibly.

[Howie]

Originally posted by Awhislyle AS far as seeing a new color, no. But possible to detect colors in other ways, possibly. What would be the differance? If you were to detect them in other ways but you can't see a new color then why and how would "other" ways be?

[Callista]

We won't know whether it's possible until someone reports it. I.e., you usually can't prove a negative statement. Anyway, I don't see why experimenting with color should be at all a useless or frustrating endeavor. Some of the colors I see in my dreams are much more intense than the ones in the waking world; and while I can say "That's definitely blue" or "Yep, that's red", I wouldn't be able to find anything in the waking world that looked quite like that color. I think that's because, in dreams, you can attach emotional significance to a color, or maybe even mix in other senses to perceive a color, like smell or sound or even taste. Regarding how insects perceive color: There's really no way to figure that out. You can tell how many colors they can tell apart; but you can't ask an insect (or even another human being) what a color "really looks like" because color, being a purely visual thing (in waking life, anyway), is something that cannot be described other than visually. We don't know whether ultraviolet looks like a more intense purple, or whether it's something else altogether--a signal our brains aren't capable of receiving, and our eyes aren't capable of sending. I don't think our brains could interpret a signal that would say "ultraviolet" to an insect's brain; we'd have to make the connections between that signal and the word "ultraviolet" just like we make the connection between a signal that says "red" and the word "red". You can' t describe a color to a blind man; the closest you can come is by associating that color with things that we think of when we think of the color. For example, "Red": Heat, intensity, embarassment, fire, anger, roses, passion. Those are such disconnected topics that they really don't describe "red" at all, but they're the closest we can come. If your brain comes up with a "new color", it would have to work the other way around from the way we learn about normal colors: Rather than making the connections based on outside stimuli, we would have to create the outside stimulus based on a preexisting mental connection. Needless to say, this would be a difficult task, if even possible. If you wanted to go about making a new color, you would have to find a group of concepts, and try to give them visual reality. I don't know whether you might actually see a different color; but I do know that you would be as hard-pressed to explain it as you might be to explain the color "red" to a blind man. For example: Ultraviolet: Brilliant, piercing, a path, signals, communication, definition, danger, insight. Infrared: Close, heat, skin, touch, love, wave, incandescent, glow. If you try those and get anything other than purple and red, please report

[Howie]

In an effort to gain more insight on colors and lucid dreaming. Please take the------------> I don't think it is a matter of asking an insect what it can see. It is how their physical make up of the eye of an insect allows us to determine what & how it sees. Originally posted by Callista Anyway, I don't see why experimenting with color should be at all a useless or frustrating endeavor. Some of the colors I see in my dreams are much more intense than the ones in the waking world; and while I can say \"That's definitely blue\" or \"Yep, that's red\", I wouldn't be able to find anything in the waking world that looked quite like that color. I think that's because, in dreams, you can attach emotional significance to a color, or maybe even mix in other senses to perceive a color, like smell or sound or even taste. That is an interesting thought. A sort of synethia(SP?) almost

[wasup]

It's not about disproving a negative. You can disprove this through understanding science and the brain. You simply *cannot* view new colors in a dream. It's biologically impossible. So, you form dreams based on your experiences, thoughts, ideas, and some other factors. If you never view a new color, you can't see it in a dream. No, you can't see ultraviolet or infrared, because you've never seen it in real life. It's also a matter that color is made up of wavelengths and you can't just go and "create" a new wavelength. Let's do a little thought experiment... On Planet Zangbar in universe Quantum 7a, physics is entirely different than here on Earth. Gravity is much stronger, sound travels faster than light, and the laws of motion are greatly altered. At Zangbar everything is a different color. Trees are largo, grass is shmichmar, and the sky is Yen. Now, tell me, what does Yen look like? Can you imagine it in your head? When imagining it in your head, does it look like a mixture of any other colors. Yeah... that's right. That's why you can't see "new" colors in your dreams.

[Howie]

Originally posted by ataraxis It's not about disproving a negative. You can disprove this through understanding science and the brain. You simply *cannot* view new colors in a dream. It's biologically impossible. So, you form dreams based on your experiences, thoughts, ideas, and some other factors. If you never view a new color, you can't see it in a dream. No, you can't see ultraviolet or infrared, because you've never seen it in real life. It's also a matter that color is made up of wavelengths and you can't just go and \"create\" a new wavelength. Let's do a little thought experiment... On Planet Zangbar in universe Quantum 7a, physics is entirely different than here on Earth. Gravity is much stronger, sound travels faster than light, and the laws of motion are greatly altered. At Zangbar everything is a different color. Trees are largo, grass is shmichmar, and the sky is Yen. Now, tell me, what does Yen look like? Can you imagine it in your head? When imagining it in your head, does it look like a mixture of any other colors. Yeah... that's right. That's why you can't see \"new\" colors in your dreams. You may be correct in a literal sense. Flying is biologically impossible too. I can do that in a dream. I have had dreams that have had remarkably vivid colors. Colors that to me (and when you are in a dream, your brain believes what it sees.) I believe I was seeing new colors. I also believed I could fly. I am not totally sold on the fact of ROYGBIV. I understand it and it's limitations to us in the physical world. But how do we know our brains can't use our subconscious to manifest a create bold new colors from an abstract vantage point that does you have not seen before? Have you personally seen raw sienna mixed with Payne's gray along with crimson lake. What color do you call that. Yes. Red orange yellow green blue indigo and violet are the principle boundaries that make up our primary colors. But how many endless sub-colors second and third complimentary colors could there be?

[wasup]

You may be correct in a literal sense. Flying is biologically impossible too. I can do that in a dream. You are dearly misinterpreting what I said. I said seeing new colors in a dream was biologically impossible... flying is your imagination and you can simulate that experience because you've had things like it before. [quote] I have had dreams that have had remarkably vivid colors. Colors that to me (and when you are in a dream, your brain believes what it sees.) I believe I was seeing new colors. I also believed I could fly. VIVID colors. That means increased hues and contrasts. I suspect that someone might have said this... sure, you very rarely see a very bright and pure cyan color, for example, but seeing it doesn't mean it's a \"new\" color. Also, your brain can make you BELIEVE you see new colors. Sure, you can doubt it... but it's just as your brain can come up with seemingly logical reasons in non lucid dreams why someone has three heads. I am not totally sold on the fact of ROYGBIV. I understand it and it's limitations to us in the physical world. But how do we know our brains can't use our subconscious to manifest a create bold new colors from an abstract vantage point that does you have not seen before? No... it can't. Any color you \"see\" could be described by the colors we have, therefore it's not a new color (simply a mix of others). The only way we can have new colors would be to have a new primary color... therefore creating millions of new colors visible to us. But this is not so. Have you personally seen raw sienna mixed with Payne's gray along with crimson lake. What color do you call that. I don't know what you are talking about (perhaps a link to an image would do), but a very vivid or beautiful color doesn't mean it's a new color. [quote] Yes. Red orange yellow green blue indigo and violet are the principle boundaries that make up our primary colors. But how many endless sub-colors second and third complimentary colors could there be? At this point you are aruging an incredibly detailed ratio of the primary colors: red, yellow, blue and their saturations, hues, and lightnesses. I suppose you could make something you technically haven't "seen" before, but A) it will seem so much like any other color we've seen that we couldn't tell and B) it's not a "new" color... just a mixture you haven't seen.

[Howie]

Originally posted by ataraxis At this point you are aruging an incredibly detailed ratio of the primary colors: red, yellow, blue and their saturations, hues, and lightnesses. I suppose you could make something you technically haven't \"seen\" before, but A) it will seem so much like any other color we've seen that we couldn't tell and B) it's not a \"new\" color... just a mixture you haven't seen. Yes. This is what I mean. I think our discrepancy of opinion lies with the word new. I believe you mean new, as in not existing prior to you seeing it. I am using new in reference to myself and the color being new to ME. I realize that in our rules we abide by, there can only be X amount of colors no matter how many hues you add to it. And in this other realm where new colors might exist, you are saying we could not perceive them?

[Awhislyle]

[quote] What would be the differance? If you were to detect them in other ways but you can't see a new color then why and how would "other" ways be? Spidey Senses. Anytime a(certain) color is near your spidey senses tingle.

[wasup]

[quote] Yes. This is what I mean. I think our discrepancy of opinion lies with the word new. I believe you mean new, as in not existing prior to you seeing it. I am using new in reference to myself and the color being new to ME. Even then... I believe you've pretty much seen every color you'll ever see in dreams (any \"new\" color as I was talking about it would be impossible to percieve any difference), but rather you feel it's new becuase of all the new COMBINATIONS of colors and colors in different contexts. Like, a bright as hell green mountain with beautifully blue sky. Feels like a new color... but if you just went on paint and saw that color it doesn't seem anything special. I realize that in our rules we abide by, there can only be X amount of colors no matter how many hues you add to it. And in this other realm where new colors might exist, you are saying we could not perceive them? Well... you could say there could be an almost infinite amount of colors by varying the amount of light an incredibly minute amount for each particular hue/saturation which would produce many more, as well as changing the hue a very small amount and saturation. But yeah, you can't produce any magically unusual colors by changing all that. It'll be stuff you recognize. And anyways, about the other realm thing. First of all, the primary example I was talking about was that it was referring to the fact you couldn't imagine those colors. But anyways, I doubt we could see it. Such as a colorblind man... they can't see a certain color so they see another or see it in shades of gray. Anyways, check this out. http://www.kaston.net/docc/work01/Data-Las...es/image006.gif All colors we know exist in the visible light range. I can't deny the "possibility" that there might be some other wavelength that humans could recognize, but from our current knowledge any color that existed outside of that (which is seemingly impossible and it is much easier to just say this realm existed in another universe and there are different laws of physics.... oh wait, well, I mean that anything outside of that are colors that we cannot percieve) we could not see. I suppose I could say that after thousands/millions of years of evolution we would grow to recognize them by acquiring new features in our eye.

[dreamtamer007]

All things emit radiation. The levels of energy and the wave length or frequency of radiation can be divided into different ranges such a radio waves, micro, visual light etc. The eyes receive and translate a spectrum of what we call visible light. Colors are the properties resulting from substance reflecting or refracting white light. Its reflected from and or absorbed to a surface. White light is actually all the colors emitted or reflected. When light reflects from a red object what is happening is the other colors are absorbed and the frequencies that produce red are reflected. In the case of black, technically black is not even a color but the absence of light. All the frequencies are absorbed. That is why a black surface gets worm in the light and lighter colors not as much. Can the mind invent or create the perception of a new frequency or color. I think it is possible even if the color do not exist in reality. The mind is capable of a lot more then we realize so who is to know except the beholder.