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I don't agree with the video game references. Of course, both DCs and video characters are fictitious, and killing them won't ensue any legal/physical consequences.
I've bitch-slapped so many DCs it ain't funny, but i would NEVER dare to kill one of them, i'd be totally afraid just like i would in waking life. I guess it would mean that i'm killing parts of myself?
Wow. I did something very similar. In a dream I was walking to my car in a parking lot and a craft in the sky was shinning a spotlight on me. I thought "Oh shit, I better get in my car and get out of here." Of course I couldn't find my car, but then I realized that I was dreaming. When the craft came down there were like 5 guys that came after me but I beat the shit out of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPotter
I would never be able to kill a DC. Unless they were trying to hurt me or another DC who I knew or something. I tend to see them as entirely too real to be able to kill or even hurt for no reason.
Hmmm, i would love to kill :-/
Well in answer to the topic title, it's not right to kill a DC, but I don't think it's wrong either.
How can killing something that's imaginary be wrong? In reality... killing something that's imaginary isn't killing anything at all.
I think that 'killing' DCs is the minds way of ridding itself of excess mental baggage... just so happens that the extra crap takes the form of a DC. That's my take on it anyway.
It saddens me to see some spiritually ignorant people on this board. This so-called real world is also a big dream. It's woven by our collective consciousness. What seems solid and real is also our mind's perception. But is it alright to kill in this world? I don't think so, at least not without some good reasons.
For those of you who think a dream is only a dream, think again. You can never be sure where in the universe you have projected your consciousness and you can never tell if the people you see in your dreams are just your creations or something else. There are dimensions out there inter-woven with our dream worlds and many of those characters have their own consciousness, even though it might not be the same as ours. Treating these characters with respect is the same as showing respect to our own people and the universe. And you know what, WE are imaginary figures created by a much bigger MIND too. And do we have feelings? Yes, we do.
Start reading some books by Jane Roberts (The Seth Series). Broaden your mental horizon and start practicing a little compassion for ALL.
Spiritually ignorant?
Pffft.
Who made you the supreme high justice of deeming who is and who is not spiritual or ignorant? Just because someone doesn't share your viewpoint doesn't make them ignorant.
I happen to believe that dreams are a gateway to something more. Perhaps the doorway to the real final frontier. I plan on exploring that frontier in my own way... not have it dictated to me by someone who tries to shove books in my face and say 'HEre... read this... this is how it's supposed to be done.'
These are MY dreams that I'm exploring and I'll do whatever I damned well please in them. I'm just starting out and I want to have some fun... not be bogged down by rules and regulations preached to me by people I don't know and could care less about.
Perhaps one day I'll discover the door that leads me to some sort of spiritual dreaming experience. When that night comes I'm sure I'll recognise it. But until then I'm going to keep killing any dream character who pisses me off. If anyone comes into my dream and fucks with me... they're going to die a slow and torturous death. Don't wanna be killed... stay out of my dreams. That's all there is to it.
Hell if some inter dimensional presence is sneaking into dreams uninvited then it's they who should be getting the lecture in respect... not us. An invasion such as intruding, uninvited, into the private thoughts, hopes and dreams of an individual is monstrously disrespectful if you ask me.
I'm not respecting anything that doesn't respect my privacy.
Oh, and fyi... I read a few Seth stories. It broadened my horizon by proving to me that there are people out there who are willing to make up anything just to make a buck. :wink:
Believe what you want... and I'll believe what I want. At this point in my dreaming experiences I believe that there is NOTHING wrong with killing DCs. Nothing you can say or do will make me believe otherwise. So go be sad for those of us who are allegedly spiritually ignorant. We won't care. We're too busy enjoying our dreams instead of being afraid and hesitant to experience them for all they're worth.
@ Wong
What makes it unspiritual if I may ask?
Besides, you cannot know whether "we" are imaginary figures. The only thing you can know for sure is your existance and what you are thinking. You can believe it is that way, but you cannot know.
And those who do kill do it because of a good reason: satisfaction. Everyone strive for satisfaction, whether it is through Love, Power, unleashing Hate and/or Anger, Joy, etc.
You have to face that morality is subjective, meaning what you think is right and wrong may not apply to everyone else.
A few examples:
If you love someone, you do it because you reach satisfaction through Love.
If you have sex with someone, you do it because you reach satisfaction through Love and/or Lust
If you do something fun you enjoy, you do it because you reach satisfaction through Joy.
If X kill someone, he/she/it do it because he/she/it reach satisfaction through Power, Hate and/or Anger
If X rape someone, he/she/it do it because he/she/it reach satisfaction through Power and/or Lust
Satisfaction is Good, while Dissatisfaction is Bad.
Well, I don't believe satisfaction is a good reason to kill someone. But I agree with Vex Kitten. I can see where Marcus is comming from, but don't agree with him calling others ignorant for not sharing his viewpoint.
Why not?
You have to see it from a neutral standpoint, not just based from your own moral values.
If you were only able to achieve Satisfaction through feeling Power by killing someone, you would do it if given the chance.
Everyone base their decisions on what they think will bring Satisfaction to them.
Okay, if it wasnt absolutely wrong, yeah sure. But it is wrong, and it isnt a good reason. Taking a life because you want to, because you can.
Oh right, killing a DC is a very satisfying experience. It does feel good to finally kill off something that's been relentlessly nagging at one in a dream.
For anyone who hasn't killed a DC, I highly recommened it. But don't just kill off any DC, wait until it's someone or something that really deserves it and you'll see how great it feels to overcome that particular character. Like I said in my first post, I think DC killing is mainly a way for your mind to clean out the crud that's accumulating in it.
It is a good reason if it makes one achieve Satisfaction.
It is just as good as if feeling good from saving a baby.
Ok, I apologize if I sounded offensive. I recommend Jane's books because they are a good start into the subject matter. Not that they are the supreme truth though. Just take what works for you and leave the rest. I wouldn't say everything said in these books is truth, but they are a fine reference. Actually, her books present you many practical exercises and concepts to improve your ability to lucid dream, and even O.O.B.E. I benefit a lot from them. If one ditches her books without really reading them, they have no idea what they are missing.
You don't have to believe me. But let's look at it this way. I believe those who like to kill in their dreams to vent their anger or stress should really look at their current lives seriously and see what's wrong. What really irritate you are not these DCs, but something else. And sometimes the more violent you get, the more unsatisfied and unhappier you are. I know sometimes we feel so powerless in our own lives that being able to do whatever we want to do in our dreams is very tempting. But then, it's not the solution to the real problem inside.
Why can't we go for more loving experiences in our dreams? Maybe next time when you want to kill another DC in your dream, try asking yourself, "Why can't I love them? Can I accept them? Why not?" See what happens next. I guarantee it would be an even more satisfactory experience than killing. Why not give it a try.
How do know that people in the real world are actual people? We have no actual proof that people in the real world aren't figments of our imagination. Yet we are nice to them and don't kill them because they act like we do. They feel, breath, speak, and act a lot like us. Dream characters are the same way, although, they are a bit more dumb/random. Maybe that's because we believe they aren't real and we allow them to act that way, unlike real people, who we believe are real, so our minds make them do normal things.
Regardless of what I just typed, I would love to kill DCs in lucid dreams, although, I would make their deaths comical, because I wouldn't want to see them suffer even if they don't exist.
Here's an idea. What if we conjure up DCs that represent our fears and then kill them? If you have a fear of heights you could throw your fear-of-heights DC off a cliff (or just karate chop him in half). Then when you wake up maybe you wouldn't have that fear anymore. I don't know. I'm tired.
Apology accepted. :wink:
I've read tons of books about dreaming. The Seth scriptures are not something I want to rely upon to further dream mastery. I could type off a list of books I recommend but I won't. I'd feel like door to door salesman trying to push a product on someone.
I totally get what you're saying though about the killing... it's the whole 'make love not war' type thing. And granted, in a lucid dream if one has the control they could simply will the dream character or the dream itself into something more loving. But then, not everyone has that much control in dreams.
Some people are passive. Some are agressive. Some, like me, fit somewhere in between. I don't run around in dreams killing for the hell of it. I usually only kill or hurt someone if they've pissed me off. And even if I did have enough control to make the offending DC submit to me or change the dream all together... I wouldn't do it. I'd deal with that character in whatever manner I saw fit... which would probably be something good and gory if I had the time and control. That's just me. At this point in my dreaming career I don't want lovey dovey, hippy type, happily ever after dreams. I had those when I was a kid and I"ve moved past the want for such dreams.
But why kill a DC? It feels great. It does something amazing for the mind. I wake up from these dreams feeling strong and refreshed. In my case it does clean out my cluttered emotional closet. I went to coucilling for years and never once in all that time did I feel as strong or as clear minded as i do after waking from a dream in which I kill a deserving DC. I don't need prozak or zoloft or whatever 'smiley pill' is in fashion this year. The occasional dream kill probably works better than any medication the doctors could ever hope to cram down a patient's throat.
I'm not telling people to throw away their medication and lucid dream instead. I'm saying that killing DC's is good in it's own way as far as I'm concerned. And I'm aware that the DC is simply a real life problem masquerading about in dream. If I can kill off a problem symbolically... i'm going to kill it off to the best of my ability. Will the problem still be there when I wake up? Most likely, but I know I'll feel a lot more confident, empowered and ready to deal with that problem when I'm faced with it in real life without the use of shrinks or drugs.
I think certain DCs are conjoured up specifically to be tackled and overcome as a way to help some assert something important within themselves. And... on the flip side I believe there are DC's that are conjored to help some explore or enrich the compassionate side. I'll deal with these characters however I please. A year from now I might hold a completely different opinion in regards to the killing, perhaps I'll have evolved or de-evolved to the point where I don't need to kill. Who knows? Until then I'll keep doing what I'm doing and I don't care who tells me it's wrong.
I say experience your dreams to the fullest. Don't be afraid to do things in dreams that you wouldn't do in real life. In dreams a person can truly be him or herself or even be a god if they so choose. Leave morals and rules and commandments for the drudgery of waking life. In dreams... be free.
Here are some very nice suggestions I found from another LD site for conquering nightmares and defeating enemies in dreams. I really like her little story at the end. Enjoy.
Conquer your nightmares
If you have nightmares you can overcome them through lucid dreaming. If you realise you are dreaming, you know you have nothing to fear.
Confront your enemy
The best thing to do is to confront your enemy. If something is chasing you, turn around and look at it. Sometimes this is enough and the scary thing turns out to be nothing to be afraid of at all.
When the enemy is still hostile, ask him what he thinks is doing in your dream and defeat it. Feel the power of the knowledge that he is part of your imagination, that you are in control and that it should listen to you.
Demand a gift
If the enemy is defeated, demand a gift. The purpose of the gift is to transform the negative into something positive. You will always get a gift. These gifts are really amazing and give you a very powerful feeling. Once I got a gift of really beautiful music, and I could still hear it when I woke up...
If you use this technique in a nightmare it won't haunt you again.
Give a big hug
Another approach is to hug your enemy. Essentially, all parts in your nightmare are parts of you you are afraid to see. If you hug your enemy in your dream you will transform your fear into love and thus dissolve it.
A dream of mine:
Once, I had a dream in which a German soldier from WWII was coming after me to make me prisoner or something. I ran down a bridge and hid myself in a corner. Then I realized I was dreaming.
"I want to know who that is that is after me, and why he’s doing it" I said to myself.
I yelled: "Here I am! Come and catch me!".
There he came. But the mean-looking soldier had transformed in a small childlike woman.
I asked: "Who are you?"
She replied: "I’m your fear for the unknown."
This was a very emotional moment in the dream and crying, I hugged her.
I realized that my "fear for the unknown" had made me "run away" in real life situations.
PERSONALLY I don't think I've ever killed a dream-character, even in self defence. Yes, I have had a vicious knife battle and had other fights.. but none that resulted in death. I am always emotional in my dreams, whether I like it or not.. even If I'm telling myself this is just a dream. Yes, I once thought about how cool it would be to have the skills of Neo in my dreamworld, but this was before I actually had my first LD; I soon realised that my LD's can be much more beneficial: and help me understand myself as a human being and develop myself as a person. We all developed our lucid skills for a reason, and I respect everyone's.. but this is just my view on why I am continuing to do it.
In one LD I controlled I saved a beautiful girl.. When I woke up I felt alive and smiled all day. Personally, I don't think I would gain anything by going on killing rampages in my dreams.. IMO it would be wasteful, and just not right.
I recently had a WILD where I woke up and was trying to stabalize, then this DC came in my room and was trying to make me lose my concentration, tempting me with sex so I'd get excited and wake up, etc. I told her to please go away, this was my dream and I would do what I want, and I wanted to leave my room. She wouldn't let me. She grabbed on to me and starting chanting scary weird crap and changed into a monster and started gouging my eyes. I told it that I realized it was just trying to wake me up, and it wasn't going to work because this was my dream. I remained calm and unaggressive the whole time. She finally woke me up.
Next LD I have, I'm summoning that bitch DC for the sole purpose of exploding her into thousands of pieces with trillions upon trillions of volts of lightning. Then I will laugh and fly away, and all will be good and right.
After reading this thread, maybe I'll give her a chance to apologize. But it had better be one damn good apology.
And what happens if none of these work? Lucidity doesn't automatically mean one has the control to make any of those suggestions work. Some dream characters put up a good fight. What then? Is one to just submit and let this manifestation of negativity conquer the dream?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus
Let's put it this way. Many of these inner demons come from YOU. You breed them. The more you want to fight against them, the more they want to fight against you. It's a vicious cycle. They are just the mirror of your dark side. Negative reactions don't make them go away. They will always come back in different forms because you keep feeding them the negative energy they like so much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vex
Take quiting smoking as an example. Sometimes the more you want to quit smoking, the more your want to smoke. Because you are always giving smoking attention. Your mind just can't quit the idea of smoking, because you keep thinking about it. The only effective way to quit smoking is to cultivate your love for fresh air. When your love for fresh air keeps expanding, your desire to smoke lessens. When you successfully convince your subconscious that you LOVE fresh air MORE than smoking, you automatically quit it.
So, if we want the war to end, we need to focus on peace. Fighting against it only makes it stronger. Because what we focus on, expands. So when you focus on fighting, you get more fighting experience. Not that it's wrong though, you may enjoy it a lot. But if your goal is to end it for all, fighting against it just doesn't do it. But when you start loving your DCs, they WILL change. Because they are a part of you. Loving them means acknowledging your own weaknesses, and accepting yourself for what you are. Nothing is more powerful than total self-acceptance.
Hey, I know the bad guys come from me. All the more reason for me to kill the monsters off.
And for your info... I quit smoking and drinking at the drop of a hat. So I know I have the strenth to overcome. However, certain dream characters won't be as easily ignored as a tube of tobacco or a bottle of liquor.
You tell us to approach a violent dream character and try to win it over with love. I'm guessing that that won't work unless someone is pretty close to 100% sane or has absolutely nothing to hide. OR... unless that demon is ready to be assimilated into your loving and peaceful embrace. I'm going to bet that if, in a dream, someone comes face to face with a serious and masked issue... it won't want to sit down and have a friendly cup of tea with you and discuss the weather.
And like I said repeatedly... it all comes back to control in the dream. Lucidity DOES NOT automatically mean absolute control. If one had that kind of control in a dream then a hostile character would never have made it into the dream in the first place.
I've had instances where I've told a DC in a lucid dream that they were in MY dream and nothing more than a figment of my imagination. That DC in turn told me that I was the figment of his imagination... or he told me that I was in his dream. I've fought and conquered some DC's without killing them. I'm certain that there is no way in hell that one of those nasty bastards would have surrendered to something peaceful. And that all goes to prove that, yes, I do have many issues that need dealing with. Most of us do. Did you hear me claiming absolute sanity? No. So I'm going to have to kick and probably killl the occasional DC's ass. And I'm going to go out on a limb and say most of us (meaning those of us who are apparently not as mentally balanced and sinless as you) will eventually experience DC's that will scoff in the face of peaceful intentions. What do you do when peace doesn't work? I'd say show the demon who is boss by beating it down and killing it if possible. Assert yourself and take back the power in the dream. Even if you don't win it's a step closer to defeating that particular demon.
Remember, not all DC's will react the same way. They are as complex as the mind that is creating them. Not all will succumb to peace. Not all will need to be killed. Don't act as if all DC's are mindless drones. They are not. The human mind is intricate, full of a lifetimes worth of possibilities and characters to fill those possibilities. IF the peaceful route works.. take it. If it doesn't... take back the dream by whatever means nessesary. Kill if need be. I'm telling you... it's an amazing feeling to defeat demons in dreams.
This is the core issue. Listen to what you say, "I'm CERTAIN that there is..."Quote:
Originally Posted by Vex
You have a very strong belief that they are very nasty bastards that can't be changed without using any violent means. And so they are. You belief gave them the power.
I can assure you that achieving complete serenity in such situations is not an easy task, but it's the most powerful way to conquer them. You know why they are so powerful and nasty? Because you keep reacting. You don't have the real inner peace. You lose your patience easily. And that way they can really get to you.
I rarely have bad dreams. But I once have a lucid dream where there are many Japanese Ninjas holding knives running towards me trying to chop me into pieces. Since I knew it's all a dream, I just sat down and watched them. When their knives touched me and I refused to move, I could see they were in awe. Their knives just went through my body and I didn't feel anything. They then seemed to lose the interest and dropped their knives before me, then left. I conquered them without moving a finger. I didn't run away, and I didn't fight back. I just kept observing everything around me with detachment, and things go my way.
As I said, if you enjoy your fighting experience, keep doing it. We all know that rollercoaster is fun, and sometimes we enjoy watching movies like the SAW series. We all like excitement, and sometimes we like to scare ourselves. What I'm really suggesting is that true inner peace is really worth pursuing, and is the most powerful.
This reminds me of a japanses movie the director was the person who made audition. Well basically the detective was chasing a criminal i think drug dealer slash assasin, well the gist of it was that the detective being morally and peacefull was dead while the assasin was alive.Quote:
As I said, if you enjoy your fighting experience, keep doing it. We all know that rollercoaster is fun, and sometimes we enjoy watching movies like the SAW series. We all like excitement, and sometimes we like to scare ourselves. What I'm really suggesting is that true inner peace is really worth pursuing, and is the most powerful[/b]
Well for both of you trying to appear superior to the other i claim your both not. Well were not dead so bhuddism philosophy should be chucked out because essentially it just as primitive as violance. The point is we have to use reason to get rid of fear as suggested by boris sidis, put it this way without reason were just primitive human or homosamien to be more correct. Well the greatness of being a homosepian is the abillity to reason and that how you get rid of primitive thoughts. Then again imagining a blade and slicing the enermy does sound like a good alternative.Quote:
You have a very strong belief that they are very nasty bastards that can't be changed without using any violent means. And so they are. You belief gave them the power.
I can assure you that achieving complete serenity in such situations is not an easy task, but it's the most powerful way to conquer them. You know why they are so powerful and nasty? Because you keep reacting. You don't have the real inner peace. You lose your patience easily. And that way they can really get to you.[/b]
I disagree chaos and intelligence is more powerful.Quote:
What I'm really suggesting is that true inner peace is really worth pursuing, and is the most powerful.[/b]