Please vote - Split this section?

[Placebo]

Hi all, It has been a topic of some discussion as to whether it would be a good idea to split the philosophy forum into 2, and call the new one 'Religion and Spirituality'. There theists can discuss their religious views without constantly having to discuss eg. 'Does God exist in the first place?' The existence of God remains a topic in philosophy, whereas the more in-depth areas of religous belief fall into the new section. So, is it a good idea?

[spoon]

I have a few objections, but I'll hold off voting in case I've missed something: 1. There's more than one type of theist, non-christians and christians would still get into the same "does god x really exist" arguments. 2.a. Philosphy is something you discover best by arguing. Whats the point of making a sub-forum where everyone would be agreeing? If christians want to sit around saying how awesome they all are, they can go to church. 2.b. If they don't want to argue about it, why post it on a discussion board? If they just wanted people to agree they could get a blog. 3. Wouldn't a less drastic solution, like making specific rules for the philosophy board, have less harmful impact? One of the new rules might be, don't preach without posting a valid discussion point.

[Rakkantekimusouka]

I definitely see your points, spoonster, but the fact of the matter is, they ARE here now, and things HAVE come up. In order to restore order here, we should have a separate section to draw all the appropriate banter out of the inappropriate section. Also, the R&S forum would be seen as a haven for theist members, and for some others, could be seen as an extension of Senseless, a haven of a different color.

[Universal Mind]

I love religious debate, so I have no problem with what has been happening except having personal insults hurled at me when I feel limited in how to respond back and still follow the site rules. I do, however, think that Awaken has been starting thread after thread after thread after thread that amounts to mere propaganda and not an invititation for debate. If he were here to debate, he would be addressing other people's points more directly. So what I think we should have is what we have now plus a separate forum for posting religious propaganda without seeking debate. It could be called something like "Religious Views" and have an explanation on the main page that says, "Post your religious views without debating them here." Those who want to actually understand why people disagree with them can post stuff in the philosophy forum. Otherwise, we can keep having the philospophy forum as is with people like Awaken posting their propaganda without ever sufficiently addressing the counter arguments.

[Gwendolyn]

Although it is well known that there are many aspects of Philosophy, most of the so called "Philosophy" that gets posted here is religious garble that I usually steer clear of. Nobody ever discusses anything but religion in here. It's all well and good to be a Christian or non-christian, but come on. There's more to Philosophy than just religion....Maybe people should just get more creative. Perhaps you should make a new section....What about a Psychology section? That would bring in some great topics...

[InTheMoment]

I voted no. Topics of a religous and spiritual nature are just fine in the Philosophy section. It's the dogmatic propaganda (which as Universal Mind pointed out, rarely offers anything to be debated) that seems to have cluttered it up recently. Originally posted by spoon If christians want to sit around saying how awesome they all are, they can go to church.

[bradybaker]

You might as well just call it the Theism v. Atheism section, because that's what it'll turn into. I voted 'NO'.

[Placebo]

Originally posted by spoon 1. *There's more than one type of theist, non-christians and christians would still get into the same \"does god x really exist\" arguments. Sure, but then it would likely be debated in terms of holy scriptures, which many others will turn a blind ear to. Originally posted by bradybaker You might as well just call it the Theism v. Atheism section, because that's what it'll turn into. I voted 'NO'. Well, if you're an atheist why would you be looking in the religion section to discuss the scriptures and your inner soul? If atheists are not in the section, how would a war arise?

[bradybaker]

Originally posted by Placebo Well, if you're an atheist why would you be looking in the religion section to discuss the scriptures and your inner soul? If atheists are not in the section, how would a war arise? Just don't say I didn't warn you.

[Barbizzle]

Why not try it out? It would keep all of that endless circling relgious garble otu of the philosphy forum for a while. We have no idea how it owudl work until we tested it out for a trial.

[Belisarius]

I voted no at first, because religion is part of philosophy, but after reading this post and thinking it over I think it would just be better to get all of the religious rubbish out of here that everyone has set preconceptions about and focus on new, more interesting, and more logically debatable ideas than the "I'm right because I told you so" that religious arguements always degenerate into(and that many philisophical arguements are dragged down into by the religious on this board). I think removing religious discussion would make for a much richer forum.

[bradybaker]

So would this mean that there would be no debate over the existence of God in the philosophy forum anymore? What about people who enjoy it and can't do it elsewhere because of lifetime bans?

[Howie]

Well Placebo you know my stance. But I will repeat it. It is rather obvious that the more religous vs. the agnostics is rampit in the Philoshpy discussion. You have to take into consideration that no one is making these people post. In fact, if it were all like minded individuals in a Forum it would become stagnent. Granted it becomes heeted. But that is what we are for. Also we know the trouble makers. We know the ones that can handle a debate as well. If there were two forums there would be a probable chance that people in the other forum would end up posting in the others forum. If we then moderated that from happening it would most likely cause contempt against the staff.

[icedawg]

Seeker had an interesting idea of--if we went ahead with the split--leaving the Religious forum completely unmoderated with an ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK warning. I couldn't say for sure how it would turn out--my crystal ball's been in the shop now for weeks--but it could be an interesting experiment. Would likely relieve some of the burden from the staff, and possibly also appease some of the members who feel constrained within their discussions due to moderation. I don't know if that would help alleviate turmoil on the forum overall or not.

[kimpossible]

I could get onboard with that, IceDawg - either that or add the ignore mod so I can just ignore it.

[Oogi_Boogi]

I think I like Seeker's idea. I know that the moderators work really hard to keep things sane, and it probably goes unappreciated most of the time, and often disliked. So leaving it unmoderated would both give the mods a break and I think also make for an interesting experiment as Seeker said. I'm also for splitting the forum too. I've never once ventured in to a religious debate because frankly I don't really care about religion, so I just avoid them, but then that leaves a limited amount of different topics, and I think it would be nice to have something new, without having to weed through the religion. I also like Gwendolyn's idea of a psychology board or something of the sort. That would be awesome.

[Placebo]

Originally posted by bradybaker So would this mean that there would be no debate over the existence of God in the philosophy forum anymore? No, there can still be discussion about the existence of God. It's the spiritual and scriptural stuff that goes beyond that, that we'd like to put in the new section. Eg. 'Who is the faithful and discreet slave in Eph x:y' The existence of God is still a philosophical question The faithful and discreet slave scripture discussion is not exactly philosophy. At least not much. I have no problem with people discussion the existence of God, despite how heated it becomes. But I have a problem with starting a discussion about a religious topic, to have it consistently move back to 'But does God exist anyway?' What about people who enjoy it and can't do it elsewhere because of lifetime bans?[/b] Well, if Seeker's idea is approved, then they can argue and flame each other all they like in the new section. We won't moderate it.

[irishcream]

Well, i haven't voted yet...but i was wondering if maybe splitting into two sections might make things worse... As in 'you believe in god, so you go over there, and can't come over here...' a sort of 'get back over your own end' kind of thing. I don't like the idea of splitting groups of people up. I respect the fact that people disagree over various matters when it comes to religion. But isn't it up to those people in the debate to be mature enough to take it to a PM rather than have a public flame war? At least, that's what i'd do if someone bugged me publicly...

[Seeker]

If we go through with this and create the Religions forum, I will be asking the moderators to either move or split any topic from the Philosophy forum that is hijacked into the new forum. A word of caution however, the staff will not be listening to complaints from anyone that gets their feelings hurt in that forum. It will be almost entirely moderation free, that is we will not step in when a topic turns hostile. We will be in there for basic housekeeping functions only. Debates in this forum are expected to stay on topic, that is, no overt senslessness. With this new forum in place, most discussion about religion will not be allowed on the rest of Dreamviews.

[Rakkantekimusouka]

Seeker, to quote Strong Bad, "that [Seeker] is a computer genius man! The Cheat, let's do a dance for the computer genius man!" Non-mod away!

[irishcream]

ah, i'm with you now...its basically a case of, 'if you want to fight, take it outside' so by having a forum without mods, it's a place where people can have their punch ups and not bother anyone else? Chances are you won't see me in there much.

[Universal Mind]

I've got an idea... A forum called "Religious Debate" where people can go to debate the existence of God and what Jesus really meant and whether Buddhism and evolution can both be true and all that stuff, and then another forum called "Religious Agreement" where religious people can talk about scripture and stuff without anybody coming in and disagreeing. There can be a provision that all religious disagreements be "taken outside" to the Religious Debate forum, where people can start new threads and title them according to the subject of disagreement. On the Religious Agreement forum, Awaken can start 100,000 new threads on his religious views without anybody expressing any disagreement.

[InTheMoment]

The idea of a seperate un-moderated forum doesn't sound too bad. I don't think we should cater a particular forum for just one or two members (in this case Awaken). Just call it the Religions forum and leave it those who will post propaganda and to those who will smite it. On the Religious Agreement forum, Awaken can start 100,000 new threads on his religious views without anybody expressing any disagreement.[/b] That's what his blog is for...if I see anyone posting a bunch heavily opinionated crap on here, then I feel the right to voice my disagreement. If anyone can get a forum by just starting a bunch of threads (based on their views and interest) then I request my own personal Porn Forum. We can call it the Glory Hole. ~

[kimpossible]

Originally posted by Universal Mind [...]Awaken can start 100,000 new threads on his religious views without anybody expressing any disagreement. * I understand the vague sarcasm there, my humor-detector isn't broken. But I did want to point-out that bandwidth, storage, and most of all, CPU/RAM for SQL searches/inserts isn't free... Still seems like the religious preaching crap should be kept to sites built for religious preaching crap.

[Seeker]

We ARE dedicated to Lucid Dreaming here, all of the Off topic forums are provided as a place where people can go to discuss various subjects. These forums are quite useful since they tend to keep the Dreaming forums on target and as clean as possible from off topic postings. I agree with Moment and Kim however, there are a lot of other forums on the web that cater to religion as well as porn. These are the best places in which to have discussions of that type. We will not be creating a generic all subjects welcome lawless forum, that is just asking from trouble. That is also the function that the Yahoo forums provide. You ever want to see rudeness and lawlessness, visit one of the political or entertainment discussion forums on Yahoo.