Thread: Determinism co-exists with free choice

I have a blue pen in my hand. I have the ability to write with it, throw it away. Break it. Or put it away. And other things.

I decide to write with it. The event happened in "time". From the structure of reality it could not happen any other way. But it was my choice that it happened at the same time. I have the ability to choose. I can demonstrate this by doing all the actions above. I can break the pen. Throw it away. Write with it. Throw it, Drop it pick it up. Since I can do these things I can choose to do each one of them. According to my will. However my will once demonstrated in time, is a part of that which was always going to happen. According the the structure of reality.

Therefore determinism and free choice co-exist.

Here we go again.

It is five o’clock in the afternoon, almost time for dinner, and hunger is setting in. You open the refrigerator door and scan the contents, trying to decide what most satisfies your cravings. Last night’s leftovers, a caesar salad, and half-thawed hotdogs all look very appetizing, but you can only choose one option, which will it be? Is there even a choice to be made, or have the contents of tonight’s meal already been determined? This is a question that has baffled some of the world’s greatest minds for centuries. Is an individual free to choose between two or more options, or has the fate of everyone and everything already been sealed? If the reality in which we find ourselves is closely examined, it is plain to see that one is not free in any sense of the word. Even if the universe is interpreted through any one of a religious, scientific or purely logical looking glass, the deterministic nature of existence remains.

The first mode in which existence can be analyzed is as a creation of a Supreme Being. In this scenario, the Creator is associated with several grand characteristics, the most important and relevant of which being “all-knowing”. In this situation, the Creator has knowledge of everything that will ever and has ever happened down to the finest detail. Not only does the Supreme Being know what you will have for dinner tonight, but the exact positions and velocities of electrons orbiting atoms that make up Jupiter’s atmosphere, the exact temperature of the most isolated planet in our galaxy and every thought that you have ever thought and will ever think. Therefore, if all choices that an individual will ever make are already known, they are not choices at all. We, as individuals, are simply following paths that were laid before us when the universe was first brought into existence. If one were to defy this path by “choosing” an alternative, it would contradict the basic assumption that the Supreme Being is all-knowing. This property also logically confines the Creator itself to a determined existence since it is already aware of any “decisions” that it is to make in the future. In the religious view of reality there is no room for free will of any kind, all events from now to the end of time are subject to the deterministic framework set up by the Divine Creator.

There is another explanation of the origin of the universe circulating through scientific circles, most commonly referred to as the Big Bang. In this view, all matter and energy along with the space and time to contain them burst into existence in one instant approximately 14 billion years ago. From that moment on, all of history was simply the playing out of subatomic particles according to some basic chemical and physical laws. That model does not change when intelligence is added into the mix. The body and mind of every individual is nothing more than a complex physical system. Bodies break down into organs, organs into cells, cells into molecules, molecules into atoms, atoms into protons, neutrons and electrons. The subatomic particles that make up our brains are not exempt from the laws of physics and chemistry and so we are helpless to direct them. If one “decides” to open their mouth, every part of that action from the electrical activity in the brain to the contraction of the muscle can be explained in terms of chemical reactions. The body can simply be viewed as an ongoing chemical reaction. Any perception of “choice” is actually an illusion that masks the true cause of the action, a very complex web of cause and effect and cause relationships. All of which are as predictable as gravity if all of the inputs to the equation are known. Every future thought, feeling, and action of every individual are completely knowable, and therefore determined, if one has access to the entire set of initial conditions present at the beginning of existence.

Lastly, support for the deterministic worldview lies in the plain fact that each unique cause must have a unique effect. This concept is best illustrated through a simple thought experiment. Imagine yourself faced with a choice, you are in the cafeteria at lunch time and can have either a muffin or an apple for dessert. Both options lie before you, which do you choose? After thinking for a few seconds, you decide that your health is important to you and choose the apple accordingly. As you make the decision, take note of the details of the situation that you are in; your mood, your level of hunger, the thoughts running through your mind, and your mother’s nagging voice in the back of your mind. Even take note of physical details such as the current air temperature and aromas wafting thorough the air. These are all factors that go into the decision you have made to eat the apple. Now imagine that those few seconds, in which you made the decision, are erased from existence. You are faced with the same decision again (without the knowledge of having already made the choice). Everything about the situation is identical down to the finest detail. Your mood, appetite and thoughts are the same, you hear your mother’s voice telling you to eat your fruit. Absolutely every detail is identical down to the position of electrons in space and the gravitational effect that the furthest star is having on you. Is it possible for you to choose the muffin this time? No. At that exact instant in time when the choice is made, it is physically impossible for you to choose the muffin. If you were placed into those exact conditions one hundred times, you would choose the apple one hundred times. This shows that every “choice” is nothing more than a product of various factors and if each factor could be measured, the outcome could be reliably predicted. In fact on a larger scale, each instant of the universe is merely a product of the instant that preceded it.

The illusion of choice in our daily lives is a very powerful one. At every turn we are faced with various enticing options and lead ourselves to believe that we can choose the path that we desire. However, upon closer inspection of our world through any of a religious, scientific or logical perspective we see that choice is not really choice at all. We are as powerless to change the future as we are to change the past. Although this may seem like a hopeless and depressing worldview, it only requires a simple shift in attitude; we are not here to make choices but to understand them. Furthermore, accepting determinism does not mean that one should give up and let fate lead them where it may. For all practical intents and purposes the illusion of choice is a very positive influence and one should live life with a watchful eye on the decisions that they are faced with

both make sense to me in a way, yet i reject both ideas its strange.......

Originally posted by supercrap
both make sense to me in a way, yet i reject both ideas its strange.......

Would you care to elaborate, supercrap?

I don't so much see chaos taken into account there.

And isn't much of this addressed in the Uncertainty Principle?

All that writing and still not one reason why choice is not choice.

one should live life with a watchful eye on the decisions that they are faced with[/b]

How can u watch for the decisions we are faced with if there is no decisions?
If there is no free choice, why do we need to keep a watchful eye? sounds like new age mumbo jumbo.

we see that choice is not really choice at all. We are as powerless to change the future as we are to change the past.[/b]

saying choice is not a choice is new age mumbo jumbo. We all make decisions. The decisions are our will. You cannot prove that they are not. It is illogical to consider that they are not our choice. When all signs point to the fact we made a decision.
Just because the future cannot be changed does not mean we do not make decisions and have free choice.

Is it possible for you to choose the muffin this time? No. At that exact instant in time when the choice is made, it is physically impossible for you to choose the muffin[/b]

not understand? You choose the apple. together with Determinism.

“choice” is nothing more than a product of various factors and if each factor could be measured, the outcome could be reliably predicted.[/b]

not understand still! Choice=Decision.Choice exists yes.
You make decision. And Determinism yes.

At every turn we are faced with various enticing options[/b]

Choice. Yes.

we see that choice is not really choice at all.[/b]

NO! Choice=Decision. Choice exists. and Determinism. YES.


Title explains everything.
Determinism
co-exists
with
free choice

what do you not understand about that? Tell me where is the illogic in this statement.
Give me one reason why free choice cannot co-exist with determinism. So far you have not givin any. Just new age mumbo jumbo about choice not being choice. With no evidence.
I have pointed out your illogic clearly. here

one should live life with a watchful eye on the decisions that they are faced with[/b]

As I said. How can u have a watchful eye on decisions to be made, when you claim that there is no decision. if there is no decisions to be made, no free choice. How can you be watchful of a decision to be made.

Now give me one reason why what I have said [free choice co-exists with determinism] is not a logical statement.

The ILLUSION of choice is what I was referring to keep a watchful eye on. There is a difference between a label and an actual process.

Try to stay with me here, obviously 'decisions' are made. Decision is the english word decribing the event where one option is seemingly 'chosen' over another.

Obviously there is a point in time where you're sitting there thinking, "Hmm, should I eat the muffin or apple?" That's not a decision, that's an observation.

However, it is only physically possible to follow one path through a decision event. This is where the 4th paragraph comes into play. Please re-read it.

As for your question, the statement "free will and determinism co-exist" is illogical because it is completely contradictory. It's like saying that something can be black and white at the same time.

Brady if you are faced with 2 options. An apple and a muffin. How can you not have made a decision?

If there is a road going left and right. You are able to take both the left and right. but you make a decision to turn one way. The fact you cannot choose both in that moment demonstrates determinism. (one outcome only) The fact that you had the ability to chose left but for instance went right. Demonstrates choice.

You cannot say you did not have the ability to go left. Because it is obvious you could go left, and you do have the ability to choose a muffin instead of a apple.

you can choose this by making the same decision differently. Now it is a different time and different circumstance. yes. Once again that demonstrates determinism.(one outcome) re-making the decision represents choice again. This is where time comes in. Time allows us to exist. With time present. We can make decisions. over "time".or "with" "time".

The structure of the atoms and space time of reality etc. Demonstrates determinism.All that is is. And nthing else can be.

Your will demonstrates choice, within that determinism existing. You think about things, and can find through your movement of time that you can control your thinking. No? Control="choice" Even in the face of determinism. Prove to me this is not the case.

You cannot say control is an illusion when you get what you want. If you get what you want. That is your choice. Because you wanted it. The fact that it is predetermine means nothing when its what you want and your choice anyway. thats why i say they co-exist. How can reality be structured any other way?

one option is seemingly 'chosen' over another.[/b]

How is it seeminly chosen? does that really make sense? How is it not 'chosen'. You have explained that is only 'seems' like a choice here. but you have not explained why it is not a choice.

You cannot say you did not have the ability to go left.[/b]

No that's exactly what I'm saying. At the exact moment of the 'decision' (label for event, not actual decision), it's physically impossble for you to choose to go right. Read paragraph 4 again carefully and you'll see why.

brady the reason you did not go left is because at that time you did not choose to go left. Thus determinism of your choice. But time still allows you to make the decisions that are determined. thus choice existing with determinism.

tell me how does choice does not exist within time and determinism.
You have not explained it to me.

Paragraph 4!!!!!!

Originally posted by I
As you make the decision, take note of the details of the situation that you are in; your mood, your level of hunger, the thoughts running through your mind, and your mother’s nagging voice in the back of your mind. Even take note of physical details such as the current air temperature and aromas wafting thorough the air. These are all factors that go into the decision you have made to eat the apple. Now imagine that those few seconds, in which you made the decision, are erased from existence. You are faced with the same decision again (without the knowledge of having already made the choice). Everything about the situation is identical down to the finest detail. Your mood, appetite and thoughts are the same, you hear your mother’s voice telling you to eat your fruit. Absolutely every detail is identical down to the position of electrons in space and the gravitational effect that the furthest star is having on you. Is it possible for you to choose the muffin this time? No. At that exact instant in time when the choice is made, it is physically impossible for you to choose the muffin. If you were placed into those exact conditions one hundred times, you would choose the apple one hundred times.

Paragraph 4 is no reason to say choice does not exist. It is just backing up the fact that determinism exists.

If you were placed in the exact same conditions. You would be in the same "time"
thus the same event naturally. because of determinism. When you move to a different time however come different decisions. Or events. That is the connection to time choice events and structure of reality.

None of this disproves the fact that you are not getting what you want, playing out your will, through this process of event where you choose the muffin. And yes it is a choice you make givin circumstances you said it yourself. A process of events, where you act within those events. You being an active part. Your will playing out. Structure of Reality equals yourself. Just because your free choice is determined in givin circumstances of time does not make them limited. Because time in unlimited. As is your choice within it. As is events within time. Creating your will done. As reality is merely yourself, as all that is can only exist as all that is, not seperate yourself, and all that is not is all part of all that is. All that is cannot be anything other than all that exists. which we would call reality or consiousness.

See, Brady, I didn't think you wouldn't at least acknowledge the illusory aspect of free choice. In the practical everyday sense, we do make decisions, it's very difficult to live without doing so, unless you lacked the mental ability to compare different future scenarios or the ability to predict based on pattern. Only if you attempt to think in terms of past or future, you realize the influences that would have inevitibly led you to choose in a certain way that you would then dub "determinism."

At least, the middle ground I can best identify with is that they both exist.

Of course in a practical sense choice exists, our lives are dependent on 'choices' we make. Our happiness is dependent on feeling 'in control' of our surroundings and feeling confident that we can navigate our way willfully through a variety of circumstances. The illusion of free will is a perfectly healthy and useful illusion to have.

But when it comes right down to it, that's all it is...an illusion.

I will admit this, determinism and the illusion of free will can and do coexist.

Originally posted by Nirvana Starseed
Paragraph 4 is no reason to say choice does not exist. It is just backing up the fact that determinism exists.

If you were placed in the exact same conditions. You would be in the same \"time\"
thus the same event naturally. because of determinism.

Yes, this is determinism. Given the exact same variables (including time) you could only make the exact same choice.

When you move to a different time however come different decisions. Or events. That is the connection to time choice events and structure of reality. [/b]

Wouldn't it follow that at a different time, the variables would be different, yet they would still surmount to you choosing the only thing you were ever going to at that point.

Each moment is different yes. I could choose a muffin to buy, find I have no money, go and get some and then decide I really wanted the apple. Does this prove free-will exists? No, this only serves to illustrate given different variables you make different choices.

Saying "when you move to a different time however come different descisions" has no practical purpose. You move the time of a choice and you've moved a variable. Given all of the new variables you make a choice - which is again at that time the only thing you ever could have chosen. Since time will stay static for any given instant the choice you make, for any given isntant, will remain static as well.

-spoon

Ya, I'm glad we got that clarified.

But of course, if you see it as an illusion, it won't be as readily easy to adopt that point of view for yourself. To truly make the ability to choose a real phemoenon for oneself, it should be a reality, rather than just an accepted illusion. If that is the case, everything else is an illusion. I mean, choices are indeed a very real thing. It just doesn't make sense in the context of considering the stimulus responses that prompt us to "choose" in a certain way.

Brady you are still not getting it. This is how I prove choice co-exists with determinism.I call it choice because it is desire lived and fulfilled.

We have already established how determinism exists.

Originally posted by brady
I will admit this, determinism and the illusion of free will can and do coexist.

Free will can not be an illusion. This is why.

The decision is always made with your full agreement. With agreement to the choice made. The event that was determined naturally has to have been your choice as you wanted that decision. If you wanted that decision, it is your will.

It has not been explained to me why free will is an illusion. Just how determinism exists. I have just told you why free choice it is not an illusion and proved it.

You are part of the process of "decision" and your agreement plays a vital part in the deterministic nature of the outcome of events. Your will is thus connected to that which was always going to happen. Reality conforms to your will and is your will. And they can never be seperate things. Wether or not you label it "free" It is a part of you. And that part which is not restricted but eternally expanding in it's progression.

"I make all things new"
"ask and you shall recieve"

The fact that you 'want' and 'agree' with things is also determined.

Once again that is stating the nature of determinism. Remember that I say it co-exists with free choice. If you want and agree. Despite it being determined. It cannot be anything other than your desire lived and fulfilled thus your will done.

Conclusion: Therefore the title of this thread is correct.

Now that statement is established I expect we all agree?
If not , then where is the logic behind your dissagreement. And how is what I have said not logical.

Logic always wins.

So far this is the most logical conclusion.

Simply stating that you are logical, with no evidence to back it up, doesn't make it so.

brady I just clearly explained to you the reason why what I said is logical. You have not explained the logic of your views in dissagreeing with what I have said....

Maybe you just dissagree because you want to. When it gets to a point where you can't deny the logic of it. You stop responding, and become uninterested in coming to any agreement.

Free will can not be an illusion. This is why.

The decision is always made with your full agreement. With agreement to the choice made. The event that was determined naturally has to have been your choice as you wanted that decision. If you wanted that decision, it is your will.

It has not been explained to me why free will is an illusion. Just how determinism exists. I have just told you why free choice it is not an illusion and proved it.[/b]

I don't see how this explains why free will and determinism can co-exist. Determinism states, and you have agreed with, that only one choice can be/will ever be made at any given time. that is that given the exact same variables (including time) you would always make the same choice. The point is that all of these variables add up to you choosing a a over b.

But what is meant by choosing here? You say that the descision was made with one's full agreement. That one made the choice because one wanted to. It does not follow, however, that if one wanted to make the descision it was one's (free) will. The choice that is made was the only possible choice, hence the illusion of free will.

For you to prove free will co-exists with determinism you would have to prove how making a "choice" which is in reality the only choice available amounts to "free will". Maybe you're operating under an odd definition of free will. If there was only one thing you could have possibly chosen at any given point, where is the free will? You can say "but you really wanted to make that choice" all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that any other choice could not have physically been made. Your will is not free, it is directed by deterministic principles.

-spoon

Originally posted by spoon
The choice that is made was the only possible choice, hence the illusion of free will.

This is still not logical if you think about it. Because \"the only possible choice\" is unlimited in nature. Through determinism. Your desire is all that matters, if your desire is fulfilled it proves that your free will is fulfilled. And thus you have free will. If you do not want free will, you can have that too. And you can live in the illusion thinking you have none. If you want to do something against your own will. You can do that too.Using your will. As ironic as that is, and as terrible as it would be for you, it is not actually terrible because it was your choice. If it was your choice it is all that is so. You still have it. All that is still determined because you created it in the first place.

What I am trying to get at is. You can make as many choices as you want in as many different times and realitys as you want, and still complain that it was going to happen anyway. And that is was the only choice. It is like that splinter in the mind, that was spoken of in the matrix and matrix revolutions movie. Choice leading one back to the source. Or creator of the matrix, \"god\". Someone at dv pointed this out to me which was suprising, as I had never seen the connection. But now I understand it. We want free choice and that desire leads us back to the truth. In our search for increasing our free will.

Your choice is all that matters in relation to free will. If you choose desire, a certain outcome. No other choice matters. Wether it exists or not has nothing to do with free choice of your desire or will Because it is irrelevant to your will. The very reason it does not exist is indeed because it is not relevant and not your will to start with.This is the connection to yourself and determinism as it relates to reality, you being a part of it. Thats why \"gods will\" is all that is ever done. Nothing else can ever possibly be done.No other purpose can be fulfilled or exist. Because that is all there is. Yet all there is, is unlimited and yet to be discovered.

For you to prove free will co-exists with determinism you would have to prove how making a \"choice\" which is in reality the only choice available amounts to \"free will\". Maybe you're operating under an odd definition of free will. If there was only one thing you could have possibly chosen at any given point, where is the free will? You can say \"but you really wanted to make that choice\" all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that any other choice could not have physically been made. Your will is not free, it is directed by deterministic principles.[/b]

Where you are getting mixed up is you control those deterministic princibles. You just don't understand it yet. Or understand the full definition of self. When you desire enough to understand your ability to choose, or desire enough to want to have more of a choice. You start to search and find out and become familar with how it is reality is structured in order that you are able to do this. Which becomes possible from your desire.

Saying. We want free will but it is not avaliable to us. Is similar in nature to those who lived in the matrix, from the movie. They cannot see any other reality than this. So they do not attempt to escape it. As one who does not believe in free will cannot attempt to have any. Period.

Something that is not your will, cannot ever be done. The fact this is impossible does not conclude that there is no free will of your own. It conlcudes that all that exists is your will and anything that is your will. Will be done. Determinsim is simply a princible that manifests this will.

One who "has a splinter in their mind" eg: something bothering them about the perception one has "no free will" They desire to understand why this is not so. In the process they realize the entire perception of 'no free will' is an illusion to start with. And they find out what is keeping the illusion alive and defeat it. Bringing them back to reality.

Sometimes it is scary how much you can use this movie to convey real princibles. I still wonder how on earth it was made. No director I know is that smart. Which leads me to the conclusion that there is something more behind the movie than the director.